I posted this in another forum, and thought it might stir things up here

some of you guys may have read my last post, I promised to show how the 204 ruger compares to the 220 swift. everyone said the 204 can't hold a candle to the vaunted swift. I thought I knew better so I just proved it to myself. The only thing the 220 swift will give you over the 204 is energy on target, does this matter for varminting??? no. ok so here goes

here is what I used for comparison
204 ruger 32grn vmax@ 4225 BC is .210

220 swift, 50 grain vmax@3950 BC is .242

the 204 ruger holds a trajectory advantage out to past 650 yards, wind deflection is close but with the 32's the swift has a slight advantage.
here are the #'s at 400 yards
204: trajectory -8.96 wind deflection is 17.75"

220 swift : -10.27 16.12"

ah you say see the 204 has been beaten in the wind deflection dept, the 204 has a trick up its sleeve still, its called the 40grn vmax and with it, it still holds a trajectory advantage and beats it in the winddeflection dept across the board. It may be possible to come up with better trajectory #'s for the swift but you would have to use a 40grain bullet, which would not perform at ranges, or you could switch to a heavy bullet in the swift and possibly beat the wind drift #'s but alas trajectory will go out the window. you simply can't beat the 204 in a varminting situation, it holds the edge and makes the swift obselete ballistically. keep in mind I don't even own a 204. maybe some day that will change. run the #'s in a ballistics program and see for yourself!!

When you ran the drop chart how did you have them both sighted. I would imagine the exact same to start with at 100. If not sight them both right on a 100 and see what happens for giggles.

Also if you get a chance show us the energy differences.

Just curious really.

Thx

Mark D

If you think trajectory/drift obselete's cartridges then you are in for a big surprise my friend.

both tests where run sited 1.49" high at 100yards

Tactical .20 beats them both with less powder.....hhhhmmmmmmmm....



IV

Actual shooting at the ranges described by CC (and shorter ranges) will often show that ballistic programs and charts can be WAY off.
So what is stated is theoretical; a "guide", so to speak.
Don't bet the farm on that data.

I personaly think that the best way to veiw the 204 Ruger is as a "220 swift without the recoil".
They both (and we may as well include the great 22-250 as well)shoot like lazers. The biggest factor in hitting small varmits at that kind of distance is the guy behind the gun.
Most of this crap is just math and it gets blown all to h*** in the field.
And your right about the Tac20. It's a dandy too. The .20 Vartarg (.20-221 fireball) is another great round. BT53

Ignoring whether the maths are right or wrong (though they're generally pretty close in my shooting), you aren't quite comparing apples with apples.

The two aren't zeroed at the same range, just because they happen to cross 100 yards with the same vertical offset. There isn't a great deal of difference (I make the Swift zero at 260 yards, and the 204 at 268 yards), but that does change the apparent result further down range.

Total drop is the figure that removes such quibbles with zero, by simply showing how much the bullet has fallen, and using that figure, the 204 has the advantage to roughly 450 yards (though never by more than an inch), after which the 220 pulls ahead. At 650 yards the difference is 7.5 inches. In the case of wind drift the lower drag bullet is ahead at all ranges. And at that same 650 yards the 22 has over twice the energy. Won't matter with a rabbit, but it may with a fox.

Mind you though, I don't own a Swift, and have a 204 on order.

Good post JB . Another way of looking at is simply to say that the Swift shoots like the .204 but has the grunt for bigger critters at the longer ranges.
Differences in trajectory between the two out to 450 are of academic interest only .

Why go to the trouble? I just use my sub 1/2 moa Savage in 22-250 and be happy!

Here's what my 'puter says on the subject

Load either cartridge with the optimum bullet, in my view......40 gr V-max in the 204 @3900 fps and the Swift with the 55 gr V-max at 3900 fps , both reasonable and doable loads in both rounds I think.

Sight both for 250 yards........

204 gets to 500 with 395 ft lbs , 25 inches drop and 24.8 inch wind deflection(10mph)

Swift gets to 500 sith 490 ft lbs , 26.3 inch drop and 27.1 wind deflection .


I haven't shot much Swift , but in my experience , the 'puter doesn't quite do justice to the 204 trajectory........

Tac20 only looks better than the 204 cause the boys are loading it hot . The 204 loads are limited to about 55000 psi SAAMI.....

Who shoots light bullets in a Swift anyway?

My .220 has a fast twist barrel; with 75 grain AMAX's at 3200 it drifts 9.8 inches at 500. That is less than half the .204. The drop is only 29.8 inches - at 500 you are going to have to click to hit anyway, so this is no big deal.

There is no way a .204 outshoots a .220 Swift with heavy bullets.

Bushchook-now that is the way to look at it. To me for PD's and such no biggie either way. In fact I'd kind of like to try a 204.

But for yotes I'd much rather have the extra ponies in the stable.

On a weird quirk (hard to believe a gun nut would have a weird quirk-eh?). But the one 204 that does perk my fancy is the lil Ruger stls/plastic stock RL... go figure!

Mark D

Does this mean we have to run out with our .220's, 22-250's, .223's and even our .222's and trade 'em in cause there's a new kid on the block?

There is theory, then there is practice.

I used to shoot a .220 Swift, and a friend shot a .22-.250 that he constantly commented was as good as my Swift.

Once we were at the range back in the days when crowe were still varmints, and a crow landed in a tree adjacent to the 200 yard targets. He shot it, and it hung there in the tree. This attracted another crow to the tree, which I shot with a Norma factory .220 Swift cartridge (you know, the 4,140 fps stuff). The only thing left of Mr. Crow was a feather settling hap-hazardly to the ground.

That was the last comment my rifle buddy made about "almost as good".

jim

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
"Who shoots light bullets in a Swift anyway?"


Well , just about everyne with a factory rifle . Ain't the standard twist 1 in 14 ? And you do give up the trajectory edge over the first 350 yards with the heavy bullet . A little extra mid range height may or may not make a diff on yote , but it well could on some other stuff .



"My .220 has a fast twist barrel; with 75 grain AMAX's at 3200 it drifts 9.8 inches at 500. That is less than half the .204. The drop is only 29.8 inches - at 500 you are going to have to click to hit anyway, so this is no big deal."


The same program I used for the other 2 loads shows a wind drift of 17.2 inch @500 , not 9.8 .On the subject of clicking versus holding.....around these parts a yote is not liable to hold still long enough for clicking, IMO .....


"There is no way a .204 outshoots a .220 Swift with heavy bullets."

Yup , but there is no way you can make a 204 burn over 40 grains of powder , either(grin)

Hunter Jim --were the bullets and the twists the exact same?

Thx

Mark D

Damn! I been shooting 38/RL15/55 Nosler Ballistic Tip/@3800fps, with one hole groups. Now that I know the 204 is so much better than my 220 Swift, I guess I'll shit can the Swift, and go out and buy a new 204. Yeah Right!

As to heavy bullets in the Swift, that is over 60 grains: hell thats what they make a 243 for. Oh, I better be careful, the 204 might be better than that one too!!

LOL!

Jerry

Jerry-man you gotta get with the times...grins

By the way the ol Swift is really gonna get it's booty stomped with the new 69 grain VLD coming out for the 204...so you'd better get your 220 sold and order up a quick twist 20...grins

Mark D

quote:

Originally posted by jb747:
Ignoring whether the maths are right or wrong (though they're generally pretty close in my shooting), you aren't quite comparing apples with apples.

The two aren't zeroed at the same range, just because they happen to cross 100 yards with the same vertical offset. There isn't a great deal of difference (I make the Swift zero at 260 yards, and the 204 at 268 yards), but that does change the apparent result further down range.

Total drop is the figure that removes such quibbles with zero, by simply showing how much the bullet has fallen, and using that figure, the 204 has the advantage to roughly 450 yards (though never by more than an inch), after which the 220 pulls ahead. At 650 yards the difference is 7.5 inches. In the case of wind drift the lower drag bullet is ahead at all ranges. And at that same 650 yards the 22 has over twice the energy. Won't matter with a rabbit, but it may with a fox.

Mind you though, I don't own a Swift, and have a 204 on order.

both rifles in the above test where sited 1.49 high at 100yds. according to my program it shows the 204 has the edge in total drop out to almost 700yards shooting 32grain bullets

Anyone with experience with the .220 sure won't trade it for a .204. The biggest problem is that from what I've seen real velocity with the .204 is more like 4000 fps. That will change things a bit, plus the fact that the .220 will be a whole lot better than the .204 on long coyotes and foxes. I would bet the wind drift with the .204 is worse than a 55 gr. .223, it should work good on prairie dogs, etc. with no recoil.

Mark,

Both rifles were factory guns: my friend's was a Rem 700 BDL Varmint (don't remember barrel length), while mine was a Ruger M77V varmint (tang safety) with 26" barrel. Probably both 14" twist or there abouts.

I expect the other guy was shooting one of the 52 grain HPs, but I don't remember. He used a lot of those. I do remember I was shooting the Norma stuff because it was the fastest factory stuff around then. Mostly I shot handloads at lower velocity. That rifle would also liquefy the cores on 52 gr Speer bullet HP -- you would get a little jet of lead spray on the target too.

jim

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
both rifles in the above test where sited 1.49 high at 100yds. according to my program it shows the 204 has the edge in total drop out to almost 700yards shooting 32grain bullets

Are you sure you're looking at total drop and not the elevation. Total drop is the figure that is generated by firing the gun parallel to the ground, and just measuring (or calculating) how far the bullet has fallen below the centreline of the barrel. It is totally unaffected by the zero distance. In this instance, both rounds have a total drop of roughly 1 inch LOW at 100 yards. It is never a positive number, but is always a figure below the bore line.

I stick to my comment that the rifles are not zeroed at the same range, just because they are both 1.49 inches high at 100 yards. In having an elevation that high, the 204 is being aimed a little bit higher than the 220, because of its greater speed (shorter time of flight) to that point. The zero would only be the same if the were both 1.49 high, AND their time of flight to that point, were identical.

Mark:

Now I am really scared! I better sell my 22 Cheetah as well. I know it won't be able to keep up with the vaunted 204 either! Why to hear you guys talk about this great find (222 Magnum Case) I better sell the OL 6mm-06 TOO! lol! As to heavier bullets, thats why they make 24's. Should be interesting to see how much case capacity is lost with the long VLD.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by jb747:

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
both rifles in the above test where sited 1.49 high at 100yds. according to my program it shows the 204 has the edge in total drop out to almost 700yards shooting 32grain bullets

Are you sure you're looking at total drop and not the elevation. Total drop is the figure that is generated by firing the gun parallel to the ground, and just measuring (or calculating) how far the bullet has fallen below the centreline of the barrel. It is totally unaffected by the zero distance. In this instance, both rounds have a total drop of roughly 1 inch LOW at 100 yards. It is never a positive number, but is always a figure below the bore line.

I stick to my comment that the rifles are not zeroed at the same range, just because they are both 1.49 inches high at 100 yards. In having an elevation that high, the 204 is being aimed a little bit higher than the 220, because of its greater speed (shorter time of flight) to that point. The zero would only be the same if the were both 1.49 high, AND their time of flight to that point, were identical.

Yes without a doubt I am looking at total drop #'s this means drop from the end of the muzzle. I fully understand that bullet don't actually arc trajectory they simply fall constantly after leaving the muzzle so the gun is actually being aimed high all the time to the target

As for 4000 fps, there are some members of this board who have acutally exceeded the 4225 loading by a fair margin, do a search, wasn't it groundhog devastation??

There was a time when the .22 High Power was touted as adequate for big cats too.

quote:

By the way the ol Swift is really gonna get it's booty stomped with the new 69 grain VLD coming out for the 204...so you'd better get your 220 sold and order up a quick twist 20...g

Betcha the .204 doesn't have the case capacity to do diddle with that weight bullet.

It's funny to see the naysayers nitpick on the nifty 204 . They just can't seem to grasp this little round is not just hype , it really does deliver the performance , both in trajectory AND wind bucking. I wonder how many have even given the 204 a fair trial ?

I used to want a Swift myself , but I just don't see where it fits these days. It's equaled by the 204 on the smaller stuff with less powder , blast , barrel wear , and expense . If it's extreme long range performace you're after , it's bested on the bigger side by any of the hot 6mm s and 25 s , with very little more noise or recoil . Hell , even the plain jane 6 Remington or 243 will do what the Swift does , if you load them with plastic tip 55 grainers .

If ya want to really whack the yotes way out there , Mark's 6mm/06 would look better to me than anything you could do with the old Swift.........

I say 'Nay' to no cartridge*, but none of them walk on water. I think what people are saying 'Nay' to is the "figurers", not the figures. Anybody can alter the basis to suit their needs or agenda, and comparing the .204 to the Swift in either direction is silly. They both pale in comparison to the 6mm/.257/6.5mm crowd...eventually...if you have enough case capacity...etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.



* Well, maybe the .270 Winchester...

I dunno nuttin fer figgers, but the .204 is a really neat little round and I think I want another one....maybe two more.....try it, I think you'll like it.

Digital Dan, Jerry Eden, Jstevens, Iwzbeeman, AnotherAZWriter, Major Caliber, Bushchook, Smallfry and ANY other "doubting 204 Thomas's" out there: Let me set you straight!
The 204 is an ABSOLUTELY amazing cartridge! In the field INDEED it does surpass the 220 Swift and a hoarde of other fine Varmint type cartridges!
I have proven it to myself to the extent I no longer hold any doubts or reservations about its attributes!
This new cartridge is simply in the top five Varmint cartridges of all time and probably is in the top three - all factors being considered!
Not only does the 204 have a superior trajectory and wind bucking capability it is an inherently ACCURATE round! I know I have three Varminters in 204 right now and may have a fourth Rifle, a custom, built this coming year!
Back to its attributes, that some of you naysayers "neglect" to consider - apparently because you have no first hand experience with the 204!!!
The amazingly light recoil allows me to spot my own hits! This IS an important attribute!
The amazingly flat trajectory allows me to make more hits in the field than lesser trajectoried cartridges would make!
The amazingly straight flight of this cartridges bullets in windy conditions allows me to make more hits in the field than would be the case with "lesser" calibers!
The amazing speed of this cartridge kills Varmints with a gusto that has to be "experienced" first hand to appreciate!
I find the 204 lacking in lethality on Varmints IN NO WAY WHAT SO EVER!
And I have killt Badger, Coyote, Porcupine, Rock Chuck, Raccoon, Jack Rabbits, Snowshoe Hares, Prairie Dogs, Ground Squirrels, Skunks and a couple of species of flying Varmints with my 204's!
Remember ft/lbs of energy is not the only factor in a lethal bullet!
You naysayers also have overlooked the "barrel heating" factor in comparing the 204 to 220 Swifts, 6mm Ackley's, 22-250's 22 CHeetahs and the like!
I have not overlooked this important attribute of the 204! I have shot the 204 right along side these calibers (less the 22 CHeetah!) and the 204 wins this important comparison - HANDS DOWN!
How about powder consumption?
Again there are no cartridges I know of that outperforms the 204 in the field that uses less powder!
Pay attention to some of the folks that ACTUALLY own and shoot 204's and have done some experimenting and load development on their own! The 204 IS capable of 4,200 FPS! SAFELY!
Indeed I just recieved from the Sierra folks an addition to their latest manual (#5) for the 204 cartridge!
They show velocities of 4,200 FPS as a safe but maximum load! And the folks at Sierra are VERY conservative anymore! Any arguments here?
EVERY Person I know who actually owns a 204 RAVES about the accuracy of this cartridge! Just ONE for instance - my good friend Jack has a Ruger #1-V (a model not know especially for its accuracy!) in 204 Ruger. I have seen him shoot groups at 100 yards measuring just over .250"!
ALL THREE of my 204's easily achieved splendid accuracy and all have shot groups in the .3's (5 shots at 100 yards) with Varmint bullets and Varmint scopes!
Your typical factory 220 Swifts are just not going to be that accurate! I know I have owned MANY of them and own 5 as of today.
I been there - done that!
No Iwzbeeman - you do not have to go trade in your other Varminter type calibers for a 204 BUT if you want to be more successful in the field with a Varmint type cartridge then yes you would be well advised to GET a 204, by what ever means, AND use it!
Especially, you should do so, before you besmirch the 204!
Long live the new wonder cartridge - the 204!
Jerry Eden: If you shoot in high volume situations and/or situations in where you might want to SEE the impact of your bullet then yes you should go right out and buy a 204! The recoil from my 220 Swifts with 55 grain bullets makes it VERY difficult to view my bullets impacts - and I like HEAVY Swifts by the way! And after about 8 or 10 shots (semi-quick) on a typical good day in a Colony Varmint situation the Swift needs a barrel cool down - the 204 DOES NOT!
I just received a phone call from my good friend Dan of Enumclaw, Washington - he is or WAS a "doubting 204 Thomas"! He was driving home from a Gun store in NW Washington with a brand new Remington 700 VSSF in caliber - you guessed it - 204 Ruger!
He does have the intellect to BELIEVE the trajectory tables and the myriad of great first hand reports he's gotten (not just from me!) regarding the accuracy, performance and lethality of the 204 Ruger!
He will mainly Hunt Coyotes with his along with Rabbits and Sage Rats.
My best advise I think would be for you "doubting 204 Thomas's, try it - you'll like it!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I quite like the .204 actually and may end up with one at some stage .
However...anyone who thinks the Swift is a dead dog hasn't owned a good one (or doesn't know how to load it) IMHO . It's a great cartridge and as I said before is like a .204 for bigger critters .
In terms of trajectory or wind drift there is bugger all to choose between the .204 and the Swift . A good marksman would do equally well with either .
A .243 or 6mm will do similar things to the Swift with 55gn Noslers .
VarmintGuy , not everyone has the same requirements as you do in a varmint rifle . Frankly I don't give a stuff if the Swift or 6mm uses more powder and heats up the barrel more quickly . Not a lot of praire dog towns where I come from and rabbits don't hang around while you fire off 10 shots in short order . Our other varmints are bigger and tougher and the extra grunt of a Swift or 6mm is valuable to me .

I like to here every ones opinion , makes for good reading and the 204 sounds like a nice round I will probably own one some day, but to those of us that do alot of hunting and shooting know its not so much the gun as the man behind it, once you know your gun and its drop , deflection your on your way , the 204 isnt making any one a better marksman , if it is sign me up , it has nice ballistics no doubt but I dont see it in a league of its own , the 22-250 is better ballistily than a 223 but a lot of people wont trade ther 223 for nothing , IM NOT DOUBTING ITS ABILITY , but just the notion we should throw all the other guns away , when you think about it, talking about inches of drop and wind drift at 5 or 6 hundred yards is kind of silly , when I become a good enough marksman that I blame the gun for a miss at 600 yards , I will know ive made it to the point of believing my own bulls**t .

The reason for my post was it seems some folks can't tell you how great their pup is without trashing out someone else's dog. Why not just post what the rifle did and let that info stand alone. Most of us (well, a lot anyway) don't drool when we talk and can figure it out on our own.
If I didn't own a varmint rifle and was in the market, I'd probably take a hard look at the .204. But I am varmint rifle poor and I have every gaget, thingy, and apparatious (spl) known to man for the care and feeding of .22 varmint rifles. In other words, I ain't gonna sell my .270 so I can rush out and buy a .280
Like Dan, I take a good bit of the info in this forum with a grain of salt.

Can I get a 204 in a Tang safety Ruger 77 Liberty model?
What? I can't!! I guess I'll just keep my Swift.
Joe

quote:

the new 69 grain VLD coming out for the 204.

What twist rate would this bullet require?

I'm gonna get me a .204 just becos I don't have one.
But I'm gonna keep my Savage .220 Swift.

Hey guyz sorry about the 69 VLD comment- I was just a joking...twisted I know but some times that is me.

On a serious note, personally I feel that we all use these rounds for many different reasons.

I've not fired a 204 yet...but this is what I feel would be my personal uses for one.

#1--to use for a calling rifle for pelts here, I have about a 8 week window where the pelt are really good. And I do feel it would work very well for this. It would also be a fair more stomp than a 17 (I am guessing) and yet not as tough on pelts as most big case 22's. IMO as a calling rifle it would not do me much that the 223 does not do though.

#2- and the best possible reason I can see for owning one is for serious pdog shooting. I've for years been a big time fan of the 223 for shooting pd's. The main reason is that its recoil is not enough to bump me off the target. Hence I can call my own shots, and there is no better spotter in the world IMO that your self.

The only thing I do not personally like about the 223 is that for me and this is my opinion it is at its best for pd'n at 300 or under. This is where the bigger cased 22 come into play for me. Less affected by wind and definately toss the dogs a bit better. And loft factor is something that is always very dear to me! IMO the 204 would make hits at longer than 300 quite a bit easier than a 223. And yet not bump you off of target so much that you cannot call your own shots.

#3- and lastly I kind of like to do things differently than most ans so I would love to toast a speed goat or two with the round. Now if I could only get someone to bring out a bullet a bit tougher than most for rib shots on lopers.

Feliz Navidad

Mark D

Now if I could just get Tikka to bring out a 204 I would be happier than a puppy with 2 peters...

Mark Dobrenski: I had occassion to travel to your city today and the highlight of the 220 mile round trip was seeing a herd of 25 mature Bull Elk lounging on a hill not 500 yards from the paved road! My shopping partner (and newbie Varminter and longtime Elk Hunter) could not believe his eyes! Thankfully I had put my 12x50 Nikon binocs in for the trip! Watching these Bulls for 20 minutes from pavement really brought to mind why I chose Montana for home!
Other highlights of our "shopping trip" was seeing a herd of over 120 Antelope out of Ennis and another amazing "wintering size" herd of over 250 Antelope out of Twin Bridges! We only saw two Coyotes and two Fox on the round trip so we did not feel to bad for not bringing a Varmint gun along on the trip.
Let me know if you need co-ordinates for the herd of mature Bulls on the ridge! Not one raghorn or cow in the bunch!
Took my breath away!
Long live Bozeman!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Bushchook: Please name the Varmint you feel I can not kill cleanly with the 204 Ruger - and WHY you feel that way?

Jstevens: I hope you have had time to look into AND absorb the wind drift numbers regarding the 204 Ruger versus not only the 223 but ANY other Varminting and small game cartridge! The error of your baseless contention is obvious and glaring.

Iwzbeeman: I understood the reason for your posting, to be, your expression of contempt and disrespect for the 204 Ruger!
And further I took your posting to be both disrespectful and baseless in your attempt at this besmirchment of such a fine cartridge!
Your postings are rather ambiguous and you really do not make it clear how, why or based on what you attempt this fuzzy (veiled?) besmirchment. If you have any specifics you need addressed I will gladly give it a try based on my firsthand usage, comparisons and based on REAL experiences I will answer any question you might proffer.
Again the ambiguity of your post does not clarify whether you think I (VarmintGuy) am demeaning anyones "dogs" or I am trying to convince you or any of the FOLKS I NAMED to sell anything! I am simply trying to point out the errors and baselessness of your ways!
Based on facts, figures, experiences, observations and actual FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE I will defend and tout the virtues of the 204 - its worth it to do in my opinion.
No, don't sell any of your "dogs" but do not without proper reasoning try to besmirch a wonderful small caliber cartridge!
Iwzbeeman, again without much ado I will state I am not sure YOU can "figure out for yourself" just how wonderful a cartridge the 204 Ruger is! I am glad to offer you my observations (free of charge) that are based on 45+ years of Varminting and field shooting!
The 204 IS like a ray gun in the field, and its attributes eventually will convince you "doubting 204 Thomas's" that maybe you better get on this bandwagon before you miss out on all the fun and satisfaction of owning a truly superior Rifle in the 204 caliber.
Long live the 204!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
I posted this in another forum, and thought it might stir things up here

some of you guys may have read my last post, I promised to show how the 204 ruger compares to the 220 swift. everyone said the 204 can't hold a candle to the vaunted swift. I thought I knew better so I just proved it to myself. The only thing the 220 swift will give you over the 204 is energy on target, does this matter for varminting??? no. ok so here goes

here is what I used for comparison
204 ruger 32grn vmax@ 4225 BC is .210

220 swift, 50 grain vmax@3950 BC is .242

the 204 ruger holds a trajectory advantage out to past 650 yards, wind deflection is close but with the 32's the swift has a slight advantage.
here are the #'s at 400 yards
204: trajectory -8.96 wind deflection is 17.75"

220 swift : -10.27 16.12"

ah you say see the 204 has been beaten in the wind deflection dept, the 204 has a trick up its sleeve still, its called the 40grn vmax and with it, it still holds a trajectory advantage and beats it in the winddeflection dept across the board. It may be possible to come up with better trajectory #'s for the swift but you would have to use a 40grain bullet, which would not perform at ranges, or you could switch to a heavy bullet in the swift and possibly beat the wind drift #'s but alas trajectory will go out the window. you simply can't beat the 204 in a varminting situation, it holds the edge and makes the swift obselete ballistically. keep in mind I don't even own a 204. maybe some day that will change. run the #'s in a ballistics program and see for yourself!!

Apples and oranges! I could use another pre 64 in Swift, so everyone go for your dream, maybe I can afford to by yours.