Why don't we compare the 204, with a 32 grain bullet @ 4250 fps, to a Swift with a 50 grain bullet @ 4150fps. Most Swift reloaders are getting numbers close to these with a 50 grainer. Also it is no big trick to get close to 4000fps, with the 55 grain bullet. Run the comparison at those numbers, if that is important to you! As to coyotes and critters of equal size, I consider all but the 22-250, and the Swift, in the 22 group, to be INEFFECTIVE, at the longer ranges. If you don't get a head shot or spine um, they run off. They aren't able to get up much steam after being hit with a 6mm, etc.

Jerry

It's always amusing when these threads start up, because it's really like various religions standing around and having at each other.

The solution is easy...buy them all.

Our varmint rifle collection now includes 204, 221, 223, 22/250, 6*47, 6/250 and 243. All have their place.

quote:

Originally posted by Mulerider:
Actual shooting at the ranges described by CC (and shorter ranges) will often show that ballistic programs and charts can be WAY off.
So what is stated is theoretical; a "guide", so to speak. Don't bet the farm on that data.

That is sooo true....... Actual shooting at long ranges can be eye-opening.

Jerry Eden: I discount your argument against the 204 on both the points you made in your latest posting.
First of all I checked 6 (six!) reloading manuals and NOT ONE OF THEM listed a 50 grain loading in the 220 Swift that went over 4,000 F.P.S.!!!
Let alone 4,100 F.P.S.!!!
Let alone 4,150 F.P.S.!!!
The manuals I checked included the latest VihtaVouri, the latest Sierra, the latest Speer, the latest Hornady, the latest Nosler and the latest Hodgdon!!!
I quit checking manuals at that point!
Yeah someone may hotrod a Swift to 4,150 F.P.S. but I would sternly recommend against that!
I have seen folks by the way mention 4,400 F.P.S. with the 204 Ruger but again out of bounds as far as I am concerned. I like to deal with reality and I especially like to do it safely.
Yeah, flat trajectory is important to me, that is why I enjoy the 204 Ruger so much!
Wind bucking ability is important to me also and again that is why I enjoy the 204 Ruger so much!
Light recoil IS VERY IMPORTANT to me and that is another reason to hold the 204 Ruger in such high esteem!
Being able to spot ones bullet impacts on Coyotes is extremely important - as I often Hunt Coyotes many yards from my partners or alone altogether! I need to see my bullet impacts - myself! The recoil from my several Swifts precludes spotting my own hits most all the time! Not so with the 204!
You should TRY ONE and take notice of this difference as well.
Flat trajectory is also very important to me (or anyone else) when Hunting Coyotes at night! As the flatter the trajectory the more likely one is to make a hit with that all important first shot! Misses at night lead to difficult re-attainment of the fleeing target in ones scope! Dittoes in windy conditions the importance of superior wind bucking ability is helpful to say the least.
Fumbling with a Laser Rangefinder at night is slow, difficult and cumbersome.
Imagine a "straight as a string" like bullet trajectory at night when using spotlights. The 204 Ruger helps take one big worry (ranging at night) and makes it a more livable concern.
The Varmints I have hit with my 204's at long range sure seemed to go tits up with regularity and quickly!
By the way I have a Remington 40XB-KS single shot in 220 Swift, with a large Leupold variable on it that sure topples the Coyotes "way out there"! To further deviate from your experience!
That 220 Swift IS one of my favorite Coyote cartridges by the way.
I know a couple of dozen GOOD Coyote Hunters that would disagree with your derision of the 22-250 and the 220 Swift and several that would disagree with your denunciation of the 204 on Coyotes!
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Jerry Eden: I discount your argument against the 204 on both the points you made in your latest posting.
First of all I checked 6 (six!) reloading manuals and NOT ONE OF THEM listed a 50 grain loading in the 220 Swift that went over 4,000 F.P.S.!!!
Let alone 4,100 F.P.S.!!!
Let alone 4,150 F.P.S.!!!
The manuals I checked included the latest VihtaVouri, the latest Sierra, the latest Speer, the latest Hornady, the latest Nosler and the latest Hodgdon!!!
I quit checking manuals at that point!
Yeah someone may hotrod a Swift to 4,150 F.P.S. but I would sternly recommend against that!
I have seen folks by the way mention 4,400 F.P.S. with the 204 Ruger but again out of bounds as far as I am concerned. I like to deal with reality and I especially like to do it safely.
Yeah, flat trajectory is important to me, that is why I enjoy the 204 Ruger so much!
Wind bucking ability is important to me also and again that is why I enjoy the 204 Ruger so much!
Light recoil IS VERY IMPORTANT to me and that is another reason to hold the 204 Ruger in such high esteem!
Being able to spot ones bullet impacts on Coyotes is extremely important - as I often Hunt Coyotes many yards from my partners or alone altogether! I need to see my bullet impacts - myself! The recoil from my several Swifts precludes spotting my own hits most all the time! Not so with the 204!
You should TRY ONE and take notice of this difference as well.
Flat trajectory is also very important to me (or anyone else) when Hunting Coyotes at night! As the flatter the trajectory the more likely one is to make a hit with that all important first shot! Misses at night lead to difficult re-attainment of the fleeing target in ones scope! Dittoes in windy conditions the importance of superior wind bucking ability is helpful to say the least.
Fumbling with a Laser Rangefinder at night is slow, difficult and cumbersome.
Imagine a "straight as a string" like bullet trajectory at night when using spotlights. The 204 Ruger helps take one big worry (ranging at night) and makes it a more livable concern.
The Varmints I have hit with my 204's at long range sure seemed to go tits up with regularity and quickly!
By the way I have a Remington 40XB-KS single shot in 220 Swift, with a large Leupold variable on it that sure topples the Coyotes "way out there"! To further deviate from your experience!
That 220 Swift IS one of my favorite Coyote cartridges by the way.
I know a couple of dozen GOOD Coyote Hunters that would disagree with your derision of the 22-250 and the 220 Swift and several that would disagree with your denunciation of the 204 on Coyotes!
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I have been getting over 4000 fps with 50 grains and H414 and the load has shown no pressure signs in my rifle in the 3 months I have been using it. As all rifles are different what works for me might not work for others. I might try to get some more speeed with the above just to see what the rifle is good for before pressure becomes too bold. Then again my current load is more than sufficent for anything I may do with a 50 grain bullet with all the talk of how great the .204 is I guess I am going to have to get one just to see what it is all about. So much for a streamlined gun room lol .

Best of the season to all.

Hipster: My Speer book shows 3,770 F.P.S. as max in the 220 Swift with 50 grain bullets and with H414 powder. And it denotes the use of magnum primers as being neccessary in that max load?
Please be careful with your testing! My Nosler book though does show 3,845 F.P.S. as being max with 50 grain bullets and H414 in the Swift?
Yes the 204 IS that good - as to be considered in your small caliber arsenal!
I have as yet to find even ONE person who has ventured forth and bought and used a 204 in the field and has then pronounced dissatisfaction with it in any way!
And thats saying something in itself!
Long live the 204!
Oh and by the way - the jury is still out on barrel life in the 204's! I have heard opinions both pro and con but none of these "opinions" are based on "fact" or real life experience.
That is the only question I have and the wonderful performance may just outweigh or forgive a realitvely short barrel life - IF that should be the 204's case!
I am holding off judgement in that area for the foreseeable future.
More later
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Hipster: My Speer book shows 3,770 F.P.S. as max in the 220 Swift with 50 grain bullets and with H414 powder. And it denotes the use of magnum primers as being neccessary in that max load?
Please be careful with your testing! My Nosler book though does show 3,845 F.P.S. as being max with 50 grain bullets and H414 in the Swift?
Yes the 204 IS that good - as to be considered in your small caliber arsenal!
I have as yet to find even ONE person who has ventured forth and bought and used a 204 in the field and has then pronounced dissatisfaction with it in any way!
And thats saying something in itself!
Long live the 204!
Oh and by the way - the jury is still out on barrel life in the 204's! I have heard opinions both pro and con but none of these "opinions" are based on "fact" or real life experience.
That is the only question I have and the wonderful performance may just outweigh or forgive a realitvely short barrel life - IF that should be the 204's case!
I am holding off judgement in that area for the foreseeable future.
More later
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I have been using Hodgdon data for the H414 and have seen no pressure signs whatsoever. I have cases here that have had 8 firing's on them so far with no problems. Once I get to a max load ( always by working up slowly) I will take 5 prepped cases and shoot them reload them at the range and shoot them again and so on looking for warning signs.I check each and every case after each string of 5 and so on. I am looking for 5 loadings with no pressure signs. Once I expend all of my powder and I replace it with new powder I start all over again working my way up. I have been using standard primers with excellent results and good clean burning.

Funny I get stellar results with 414 with speeds faster than what is listed by Hodgdon. Using 4064 I get slower speeds than listed in manuals. I do find the manuals to be somewhat conservative for some rounds and very bold for others. Swift is a pretty old round so they must have some margin for safety for older rifles out there. I always work up slowly and I am pretty anal about case inspection and prep. I got to look back in my info for 3 different 414 charge weights I have used and the velocity results.

Varmint Guy

I don't doubt it will kill a coyote, we used to run them with dogs and killed 30-40 a year with .22LR, and shotgns with 4Buck. In this same time period, we shot 100-150 coyotes a year for only about 25-30 years, so I've seen them shot with everything, as well as hit them in the head with a hedge post after trapping them. I'm on my third .220 barrel, also have owned 2 Sakos, 2 Rugers, a No. 1 in .220 Swift, shoot enough long wild coyotes, not called coyotes and you'll want more gun, maybe even the 6-06 or a .240 Gibbs. I don't consider the .220 a PD gun, since it will heat up the barrel too quickly, would just use it for the occasional long one. I'm not knocking the .204, I think it's a great varmint round, just not a consistent long range coyote round, especially if you shoot a lot of them moving fast as I do.

VarmintGuy ,
Guess there aren't any kangaroos where you come from .
That is an Aussie definition of a 60 - 150lb varmint that the .204 would not be suitable for at longer ranges . The big .22's are a bare minimum . Pro shooters generally use .223 and take head or neck shots only out to a maximum of 200 yards . Swift is good for 300 - 350 with chest shots . .204 ?

Hey Varminguy:

I don't want to be disrespectful to you but, ever heard of Norma? They have a factory 48 grain 220 Swift load @ 4120fps. Thats a factory load! As to the loading manuals, they are guides. As I said before all rifles are laws unto themselves. My chronograph dosen't lie. And just to add fuel to the fire, I have a friend here in Arizona, who is getting over 4000fps with a 50 grain bullet in a 22-250, built on a Mauser action. As to the Swift, it is the king of all the sub 24 factory cartridges, and it always will be.

Happy New Year

Jerry

Hey Jerry I kind of hate to tell you this but..my Grandson can beat up your Grandson and my 22/378 Wby will kick your Swifts booty...just kidding on both counts.

Had a real good and busy day in Real Estate today so am kind of full of p and vin.

Make it your best day

Mark D

On a serious side one of my calling buds from G Falls runs his 22/250 with R15 and 50 NBT's at 4000.

Hipster: My long time friend Jay Barnes of Cowlitz River country in Washington state was doing EXACTLY the same thing you are doing with your Swift! With his 264 Winchester Magnum he was "pushing" the published loads and he ended up in the emergency hospital having metal removed from his eye!
My advice to you - observe the manuals maximums!
Hipster are you ready for the rest of the story on my friend Jay?
He wa so confident in his ability to reload and judge (guess!) pressures that is was not even a year later and he WAS BACK for another eye surgery - same cause!!!
I then sold that 264 Magnum for him and tried ever so delicately to persuade him it was not the Rifles fault he was blowing primers and seperating cases it was his ignoring the book maximums!
I pray you will not be harmed in your load testing!
Long live the 204!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Bushchook: No I have not seen any Kangaroos here in the Rocky Mountain western USA - as yet anyway! I did see a Zebra this fall in eastern Montana though!
If I were a 150 Kangaroo though - I would very definitely NOT want a Varminter like myself shooting me with 40 grain bullets out of a 204 Ruger!!!
100 yards or 350 yards no matter which!
Have you shot any Kangaroos at 350 yards with
the 204 by the way Bushchook? I notice a "?" (question mark!) at the end of your derision of the 204.
Look up the ballistics (speed and ft/lbs of energy) of a speedy 40 grain projectile out of a 204 Ruger at 350 yards and then reassess your derision!
Long live the Kangaroo species!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Jerry Eden: Lets get this straight right off - you do not have enough horsepower even on your best day to disrespect me!
Save your breath and energy in that regard.
So - your friend achieves a particular F.P.S. reading in a particular 22-250 Rifle - what is your point regarding the 204 Ruger here?
Aside from that first error you made there (intimating you might offend me!) I appreciate your injecting the Norma ballistics on the 48 grain bullet. Again what is your point there?
Yes I have heard of Norma - I use Norma brass exclusively in ONE of my Swifts as well as several other calibers I have!
Its VERY rare that I or anyone I know or have seen shooting (and thats a lot of people!) shoots a lot of Norma factory ammo (in the under 24 caliber offerings)!!!
They are sensationally overpriced is the main reason I am surmising.
I have had my Oehler Chronograph for more than two decades now. And I am fully aware of "factory published FPS claims" - via personal testing with MY own chronograph!
So, are you saying, that because loading manuals "are only guides" that the ballistic charts are somehow lying to YOU about the 204 Ruger cartridges ballistic superiority over the Swift? And are you fully prepared to discount the other advantages most shooters would appreciate regarding the 204 Ruger over the 220 Swift?
You have burped up a pretty sweeping declaration there regarding one of my all time favorite cartridges - the 220 Swift! One I DO NOT AGREE WITH by the way!
It appears you are declaring the Swift THE best all around factory cartridge (under 24 caliber) that ever was or ever will be?
I simply must ask you what criterion did the Swift meet and other cartridges do not, that prompted you to bestow this title on the Swift?
I will be interested in perusing your criterion in this regard!
Long live the new wonder cartrdige - the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Jstevens: Your Coyote bona fides appear to be lacking only in ONE important area regarding this discussion - the subject of this posting!
How many Coyotes have you shot with a 204 Ruger?
or
How many 204's have you owned?
or
How many 204's have you field tested extensively?
or
How many 204's have you even shot?
Let me make it clear to you how and where I Hunt Coyotes - I have never intentionally ran them with hounds but I have shot them over bait, called them in both electronically and with mouth calls, howled for them (all these methods were both days and nights), still Hunted them, stalked them, put out scents for them, I have shot them in thickets, swamps, alpine areas, endless sage flats, gumbo country, forests, wilderness areas, coming out of barns, on BLM land, on National Forests, on National Grasslands, in National Wildlife Refuges, in at least 7 western states, with 17 rimfires on up through most every centerfire cartridge under 30 caliber ever devised and I have Hunted them with bow and arrow!
I have two living witness's that saw me kill an adult Coyote, at night, with a hand thrown rock!
I to, have killt Coyotes up close (in traps) and I have also killed Coyotes with shotguns and pistols!
I killed my first Coyote more than 46 years ago with my grandpas Winchester Model 61 pump 22 Rifle!
I been around - when it comes to Coyotes, a bit, myself!
The average Coyote I kill anymore, yes, is called in but by "in" that often means "in" to ranges that often exceed 300 yards!
Do not doubt for even one second the ability of the 204 Ruger to put down a Coyote at what I consider long range!
I think if you gave one a fair trial in the field you would be as impressed with it as I am.
The 204 Ruger is a splendid Coyote caliber in my estimation.
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I wouldn't even begin to discuss killing power of a cartridge with anyone who can kill a coyote at night with a thrown rock.

I agree with jb747....in fact my collection is almost identical. You really need several and choose the best for the circumstances. May even throw in the shotgun if conditions are right.

I'm gonna hang around and see who gets the first nose bleed...

Zee gloves are on the ice...

Hey guyz have fun and make it your best day!

Mark D

You all can argue with each other all you want. You can show all the ballistics tables yada yada yada. I will take a 220swift anyday over a 204 and I dont care which one has the better ballisics.

A 30-378 Wby shows higher energy Foot lbs and a flatter trajectory with say a 180gr bullet than a 375 H&H with 300gr at 2500 fps.
I'm willing to bet that most of you would pick a 375 over a 30-378.

Still doesn't motivate me to run out and get a 204 at all....

Because I am not missing all that much in my book...

I don't see a reason to even get a swift, when it does not give me much more than a 22.250 has been giving me all the time....

I look at a 204 as more in competition statistically with a 223 and a 40 grain bullet than any thing else....

Too many guys get hung up on "facts and figures" instead of real world performance....

Learn to use a mil dot scope and it all become academic at that point...

A guy who has a 223 with a mil dot scope and knows how to use it, will out shoot some 'Eddy Bauer decked out' shooter with his trendy new 204 any day of the week.....

of course I am the type of guy....that if ya wanna motivate me....

2 rifles are sitting in the store, side by side.... both brandnew....single shot bolt actions.. laminate grey stocks.. heavy barreled....ONE in 204... ONE in a 220 Donaldson Wasp......

seafire is going to take the Donaldson Wasp home and skip the Johnny Come Lately.....


seafire

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Hipster: My long time friend Jay Barnes of Cowlitz River country in Washington state was doing EXACTLY the same thing you are doing with your Swift! With his 264 Winchester Magnum he was "pushing" the published loads and he ended up in the emergency hospital having metal removed from his eye!
My advice to you - observe the manuals maximums!
Hipster are you ready for the rest of the story on my friend Jay?
He wa so confident in his ability to reload and judge (guess!) pressures that is was not even a year later and he WAS BACK for another eye surgery - same cause!!!
I then sold that 264 Magnum for him and tried ever so delicately to persuade him it was not the Rifles fault he was blowing primers and seperating cases it was his ignoring the book maximums!
I pray you will not be harmed in your load testing!
Long live the 204!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I feel for your friend but in retrospect I have as of yet to exceed any of the maximums on published data from a cross reference of at least 3 published sources and all except for one load am under max with everything in old swifty I only have one load at listed published max and I do not plan on blowing this rifle up I love it way too much

They're two different cartridges better suited to different applications...

Oh yeah, and BTW:

Seafire,
We're sittin on the same horse - different saddle! I sold my .223 a couple of years ago and have been doing all my varmit shooting with the .22WMR and a Sako .243....sooo, I started looking for a new .223 to fill the gap.
Started looking at the .204 with some serious interest and finaly decided that I liked the idea of getting 22-250 trajectory with less than .223 recoil...so I bought.
So far I haven't shot anything with a heart beat yet and even paper is new to the gun, but it does show promise and it is funner than all get out. The rifle, a Rem SPS with basics rifle trigger and Leupold 4x12 in their mounts & rings, just lays on the bag during recoil..I can see eveything happening as it happens. Pretty cool, I think. It should make a pretty good walking varmit rifle for ground squirrels, sage rats and coyotes, the main reason for the purchase.
An "end all" or "do eveything" varmiter, no. But neither are any of the other cartridges that have been presented here. But a "fun" gun ? Darned right.
I'll be loading for it in a matter of days now - I'm finally getting the last component together (time). Hope to roll a coyote or two with it soon and for sure will be in Klamath by march or april to properly welcome the "sqeakers" to the new year!
I like them all, but will honestly admit that the .204 is one of the most pleasant and easy to use that I have had in my hands.
I well remember the "good old days" when my varmit armament was two guns...a 22lr and an '06! I sure don't miss the good old days !! BT53

Gotta remember we are talking VARMINTS.
Big deal if one gets wounded and dies tomorrow or the next day.
NOW, some are starting to talk about deer hunting with a 22 centerfire. I never would
unless
my only other option was a 20 caliber

Jstevens: You are "not even beginning the discussion" because you apparently can not answer the simple and direct questions I posed to you! Don't try to make excuses when you have no answers. Simply admit it.
You have been "out discussed" due to your contention having no merit and you are unable or unwilling to answer even the simplest of questions.
Not surprising to me that you are attempting diversion.
Diversion of discussion won't work on me though.
Don't believe my double witnessed rock kill of a Coyote?
Let me expound a bit on it!
My older brother Duane and my long time Hunting partner Louie were Hunting Deer near Bonaparte Lake in the Okanogan country of Washington State! We had a particular Hunt in play for the opening morning of the Deer season. It involved our driving to the top of a ridgeline and spreading out and waiting for the Deer to come up hill towards us at day break!
We rose long before sunrise and headed out in my truck for the ridge in question! The road was steep and slow going and it was still pitch black out. All of a sudden a Coyote appears in the dirt road about 75 yards from us! It just stands there as we slow down to observe it! At 25 yards distance it SITS down on its haunches! In the middle of that old logging road track! We were astounded as the norm for Coyotes is to bolt off of course!
It just sat there in the headlights of my truck and stared into the lights! I crept up to within 15 yards of the Coyote and stopped.
We began laughing and then started to wonder if this Yote was rabid!
We decided not to honk the horn at it because we were nearing our Hunting area.
I decided to put on the emergency brake stepped out and picked up a softball sized rock and heaved it towards the unsuspecting, unmoving and unlucky Coyote! As luck would have it the rock came down on top of the Coyotes head knocking it flat. It was up in an instant but could only run in a small circle. In several seconds it ceased moving completely. Louie and I went up and inspected it.
It was bleeding from one ear!
And it was dead.
We continued on in the truck leaving the Coyote still afraid to touch it for fear of rabies.
Now again Jstevens: I repeat the simple and the direct questions I previously posed to you!
Answer them or admit you can't. He-he!
Long live the 204!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Jarrod: I don't think there really is an argument!
The ballistic tables are irrefutable!
The 204 Ruger shoots flatter, bucks the wind better, has way less recoil (remember the weight of the powder charge also figures directly into the felt recoil!), heats up barrels much slower, is capable of better accuracy and allows the shooter to see ones own shot placement on target or on game!
Hmm... the 204 has so many distinct advantages over the Swift I wonder why folks that have never owned one, Hunted with one, fired one or used one in the field or at the range decry it so?
Hmm... I can't figure that one out!
Choose the Swift if you wish but don't fool yourself into thinking your Swift is automatically and in all categories better than the 204!
Its not!
I have proven that to myself in addition to the ballistic and trajectory chart evidence! Its an open and shut case - so to speak!
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Blacktailer;

Between what you say and some suggestions from Varmint Guy.... I still won't commit to going out and buying a new 204....

However, I was just yesterday looking at a 223 Ruger Sporter that is starting to loose some of its accuracy.... It is a factory blued rifle.. with a grey laminate stock on it from Boyd's....

I was debating at putting a magnum contour barrel on it... with a 26 inch length... in 222 Rem just to offset the number of 223s that I do have and shoot...

But maybe some of you boys can correct me if I am wrong....

The 204 is based on the 222 Rem Mag Case which I know for sure....

But what is the 20 Tactical based off of? Isn't that a 20 caliber on a 223 case?

On one of the Savage Websites... I was also eyeing over where they had available barrels for a Savage in 20BR.....

Since I am a handloader... the 223 cases would be more appealing than the 204/222 Mag Cases to run down...for economy.. and I have about a million of them around...

If I was going to have to futz with brass, that is more spendy, and harder to come by....wouldn't the BR Case actually give me more of a good thing on top of the 204?

or lastly.. thoughts on a 22.250 necked down to 20 caliber???

really my two major interests in newer ( for me) varmint cartridges has been the 20 BR and the 17 Mach IV....

But then I hear that 19/223 Calhoon whispering my name from afar once again also....

Decisions decisions decisions...

cheers
seafire

Seafire,
The short answer is yes, the .20 Tac is off the .223 case and would be the cats a** for you with all your .223 cases.
My personal favorite were I building a custom is the .20 Tarvarg (.20-.221 fireball) it's a straight neck down and load away. Most efficient of the whole lot and said to be very accurate and user friendly...whatever that is? To me, thats someone handing me more ammo!
Here's a good site to find the particulars, scroll down to the .20 cal site.
http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html
There's lots of info there. A spin off site even has info on the .20-250 and most anything else that you could dream up
Now that Christmas season is done I can install that basics trigger and roll some handloads and see what this .20 stuff is all about. So far only ran some factory thru it. WW 34 gr hp..did not shoot particuarly well. The 40 rounds of Rem 32 gr BT shot very well and made me feel warm and fuzzy.
Happy Holidays! BT53

What can my swift do that those can't with a 204? Shoot cheaply! I do a lot of plinking with my swift and 55gr fmj from Winchester run about $4.50 /100. I can buy .224 cal. bullets anywhere also. I would like to get a 204 but the set up cost were rather high and most load data ran short of factory loads.

... My 2cets...

Why not compare each caliber with bullets of equal weight??

NBHunter: I think the only "set up" costs you would incurr over setting up a 22 cal or a 24 cal Rifle vs the 204 would be the need (and I highly recommend you get one!) for a 20 caliber cleaning rod. The 17 caliber rods have a tendency to bend when used in the 20's. As a couple of friends of mine have learned the hard way.
You are right on one point I have not seen any 20 caliber bullets for $4.50 per hundred! But then again I NEVER use FMJ bullets in ANY of my Rifles so that is a moot point for me and many others I am guessing.
The scarcity of quality 20 caliber bullets though is over! Even in the most remote from civilization parts of the U.S.A. (lower 48 states anyway!) and one of those most remote of all places in Amercia is where I live here in SW Montana!
The 20's have arrived don't miss out on this wonderful cartridge because of worries over components.
That is no longer a problemo.

Seafire/B17G: I have a 17 MachIV and absolutely love it! My Rifle is a custom built very heavy Varminter with a very long Shilen stainless barrel.
It is simply the cats meow! I would never be without a 17 MachIV!
Having said that if performance and ease of shooting in the field (less trajectory worries and wind drift concerns) is high on your priority list then I suggest you rebarrel that Ruger rig of yours to 204 Ruger!
I do not personally know anyone with a 20 BR but have read some about it! That might be a really cool rig!
Oh by the way the feeding of the 17 MachIV from magazine to chamber is sometimes iffy for me! I live with it though in my customized Remington 700!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

The set up costs I mentioned relate to cost of another set of dies (more expensive) and harder to get (in my area) bullets, another type of powder (possibly) Brass and the biggest cost... The fact I need to buy a new rifle because I have no bolt actions in a short action and small bolt face.

Like I said, I'd like to have one but it seems more economical to stick with my swift and spend my cash on something I can tell a practical difference in. Remember, in New Brunswick a typical shot even for varmints is still under 300 yards.

The 204 is not a magical cartridge. The .22-250 is just as flat shooting, the .220 is flatter. The wind performance is very good, but it is not due to the cartridge, it is due to the Balistic Coefficient. THe BC of the 40 gr vmax in .204 is .275. The BC of a comparable sectional density bullet in .224 is .242 (50 gr vmax. If the ballistic coefficients were comparable, the 220 would walk all over the 204. Still, the 220 with a 55 Nosler BTip is within 1 inch at 500 yds in drop AND windage, and carries 30% more energy.

Here are my numbers
I used .204 factory numbers because I haven't seen reloading data that can match it, let alone exceed it.

204 ruger
32 vmax 4225 fps
Max point blank range 351yds
500 yds: drop 29.4 windage (10mph) 32.4 energy 248

40 vmax 3900 fps
Max point blank range 348yds
500 yds: drop 28.4 windage (10mph) 24.9 energy 394.7

.22-250 rem
40 Bal tip 4200 fps
Max point blank range 354yds
500 yds: drop 28.5 windage (10mph) 30.4 energy 336

220 Swift
40 Bal tip 4477 fps
Max point blank range 372yds
500 yds: drop 24.5 windage (10mph) 28.0 energy 443

220 Swift
55 Bal tip 3896 fps
Max point blank range 345yds
500 yds: drop 29.1 windage (10mph) 25.9 energy 519

My source for the velocities are Accurate powder co website, Hodgdon website. Ballistic coefficients came from Nosler and Hornady. By the way, I have nothing against the 204 ruger. I think the greatest thing about it is zero recoil. I don't have a 204 or a 220 swift. I have a .22-250 and a 223, so while I would like a 204 I can't justify it at the moment.

VG:

Thanks for the info on the 17 Mach IV.....I was checking out a few sites and articles on the 20s last night, which I think I posted elsewhere....

That 20 BR is sort of appealing to me.. as it is listed as the fastest of most of the 20s used in the field.....

The Vartag Turbo... 20/221 is also looking interesting.. based on efficiency....

All my varmint rifles in the field are always single loaded...so feeding is normally not an issue....

If I know seafire, usually building a 20BR and a 20 Vartag Turbo on another action would by my way of not having to make a choice between the two...

The 20 Tactical with all of that available 223 brass hanging around here.. is also an appeal...

My rack of hunting rifles are dwendling... but my rack of varmint rifle is growing......

All of this switch barrels available for a Savage 12 is getting appealing to me also...I may look at a barrel for my 223 Savage, in 204... If I don't like it.. I can always sell it since it is a hot ticket at the moment....

I think you guys convinced me on the need for experimenting with a 20 caliber... now just have to figure out which piece of brass to sit in on.. so I can get a barrel chambered for it...

Of course where your thread was asking about goals for 2006... one on my main goals was to wear out a couple of 223 barrels this year....

I have buzzed thru about 1500 rounds of 223 ammo in the last 60 days... or so...

cheers
seafire

Hughjass ,
Good post . Puts things in perspective .
Can't work out why some of the .204 fans here can't see that there is still a place for a cartridge with flat trajectory that carries a bit more grunt downrange .
We could conclude that the .220 Swift kicks the ass of the .257 Weatherby too if we used some of the arguements that I have seen above . In reality (like the .204 and the Swift) they are different cartridges with different but overlapping applications .

For me this stuff isn't all that tough, kind of fun to toss around when we can't get out and do much of it though.

Now for me if I just wanted a dedicated rifle for PD's I would go 204 no doubt.

If I just wanted a dedicated yote rifle (which I've already got (M70 6/06 with a 25" 4 weight Schneider) I would not go with either the Swift or the 204.

As good as they both are I know that I want more snuff for the shots past 300. On the years that we (my calling partner and I) hunt yotes hard we take between 50 and 60 of them. A very large portion of those are taken at under 300 yds, in fact a very good portion of that is under 200 as well. But, for those dogs taken out in the 350 to 600 range we have found that a bigger round is a better deal. Now make no doubt about it hitting a dog at past 350 is a fairly challenging propstition and fringe hits are common. That is where I've found the extra power of the big 6's to come in handy. The dogs do not go as far and usually go down fairly quickly albeit a bit of bitchin about it.

These 2 games are very different games and as such carry some different needs.

For me the Swift would be a good round if I was not gonna specialize in either, and just do a bit of all of it.

Which, in the real world is what happens for the most part. Not a lot of people out there that are really into this stuff. People will love to talk about it and such but not many of the shooters out there truly get after it. So if I was gonna use it for a few pds a few yotes and toss in the yearly lope hunt then I would go with the Swift.

And acutally I would not go Swift, there was a time when I would and did. But, at this time in life I would just make it a 22/250 and be done with it. I am thinking about another varmint rig for our house and this is for my wife. She'll do a bit of all of this and not tons of any of it (maybe a 1K rounds a year or so). So VG and I have been talking about the idea of just getting her a 22/250 and being done with it.

Besides that way I can get the 204 for me....gack gack gack gack

Make it your best day

Mark D

Hughjass: Come on now - my latest Sierra manual shows the HIGHEST of the maximum (SAFE!) loads for the 220 Swift with 40 grain bullets attaining 4,200 F.P.S.! NOT 4,477 F.P.S.!!!
If you want to throw in a bunch of outlandish F.P.S. numbers then you have only that - an outlandish comparison!
Out of the ten dozen 220 Swift owners I know exactly NONE of them use the 40 grain bullet in them let alone at an alleged 4,477 F.P.S. to Hunt Coyotes with!
Sheesh!!!
There are folks on this forum that have achieved velocities far in excess of the velocities you list for their 204's but again I put safety ahead of "outlandish speeds at any cost" for my comparisons and useages!
You are wrong also in this regard hughjass, the 204 Ruger IS a Magical cartridge!
Use one for a couple of seasons like I have and you will certainly realize that!
Part of its "magic" is the superior trajectory and wind bucking ability it possess's - but it goes beyond that in several respects!
I am certain, the 204 Ruger is capable of accuracy that also best's the Swift and the 22-250 in comparable and comparably equipped Rifles!
At least the three 204 Varmint Rifles I have, show that to me! And to reach that declaration I have also incorporated the experiences of folks I know who own 204's and of whom I trust their opinions!
Along with the enhanced accuracy of the "magical 204" - I will repeat some of its other attributes, for you few "doubting 204 Thomas's" - the barrel on your 204 Ruger is gonna remain cooler for a lot more shots than is your 220 Swift!
I pray none of you "doubting 204 Thomas's" have the audacity to try to refute this fact with some OUTLANDISH burp up of anti-204 slander!
Along with the enhanced accuracy of the 204 and the superior wind bucking and flatter trajectory of the "Magical 204" the next to nothing recoil allows a shooter/Hunter to spot their own shots!
Can't do that with a 220 Swift! I know, I have several Swifts and it remains one of this fine cartrdiges detrimental attributes (recoil induced loss of sight picture at the instant of the shot)!
Thank you hughjass for pointing out the nom de'plume for the 204 Ruger ("Magical Cartridge") that I will use from now on when I defend the Magical 204 from you "doubting 204 Thomas's"!
Especially you "doubting 204 Thomas's" that have never owned one OR used one!
Sheesh!
Anyone that would blindly try to besmirch this "Magical Cartridge" that comes in such a small case and does so much and does it in such a superior manner - I conclude simply has never owned or used a "Magical 204"!
Better accuracy!
Better trajectory!
Better wind bucking!
Cooler barrel!
Less recoil!
Splendid lethality in the fields!
Bigger performance with a lot smaller powder charges!
Hmmm.... I am sensing a "no-brainer" here in favor of the 204 Ruger!
Long live the "Magical 204" Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Mark Dobrenski: Visualize the "average" Coyote Hunter if you will?
He probably DOES NOT want a 240 Weatherby, 6mm/06 or a 6mm A.I. size hole in the fore and aft of his hard won Coyote pelt!
Indeed I am not much of a pelt saver myself but I began a search several years ago for a bullet to use in one of my 220 Swift's and in one of my 22-250's so I could harvest Coyotes and still have the option of taking them to one of three of my local friends that do save and sell their pelts!
I came upon the Speer 52 gr. H.P./F.B. (not the B.T. - boat tail). This bullet does a pretty good job of saving pelts at moderate to normal 220 Swift and 22-250 velocities! I came upon this bullet via the recommendation of two different HIGH VOLUME Coyote Hunters who do need to save pelts.
I have no recommendations for pelt saving 6mm bullets. This situation is a hit or miss (pardon the pun) I have found and one time a 6mm bullet will leave a huge tear in the pelt and other times not so bad?
I still prefer to shoot as many Coyotes as possible and don't feel any remorse if a Coyote gets left in the field.
The Coyotes in areas I Hunt them in are WAY over-populated and do untold harm to wild game and domestic animals! Including Upland Game Birds of all kinds, Turkeys, Antelope fawns as well as Mule Deer and Whitetail fawns!
I saw yesterday that Coyotes are responsible for 10% of the Elk calf crop being killt off! I am not sure about that (see the Montana Fish, Wildlife & Park site for this article!).
Anyway for at least 98% of the shooting I do on Coyotes the 204 can do it!
Yes by all means get the Mrs. a 22-250 and load it up with Speer 52 gr. H.P./F.B. bullets and she will have a dandy rig! It just won't be AS GOOD as the same Rifle, same scope combo in 204 Ruger!
Trust me on this one! I know.
Of course I see your point - get her a nifty Rifle in 22-250 and then you still have incentive to some day bring home a "Magical 204"!
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Bushchook: Let me repeat my questions of you after you made your "hit and run" attempt at slandering the "Magical 204" cartridge! Apparently you MISSED my direct questions of you in my previous posting!
Have you shot any 65 to 150 pound Kangaroos with the 40 grain 204 Ruger projectiles?
Do you think a 65 to 150 pound Kangaroo would NOT die if I shot him with a 40 grain 204 Ruger projectile "at 300 to 350 yards"?
I think it would!
Please consider the 204 Ruger in an unbiased light until you at least get one and try it in the field!
I am sure that you will be very impressed with its splendid (superior!) trajectory, wind bucking ability, accuracy, lack of recoil (see your shots!) as well as its lethality and other attributes!
I hope things are now a little bit "more in perspective" for you!
If you wish to compare the fine 220 Swift with the fine 257 Weatherby Magnum maybe that would be a good subject for a seperate posting? Its not the subject implied or inferred here in any way.
The subject here is the superior trajectory and wind bucking ability of the 204 Ruger.
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy