quote:

Originally posted by bucko:And Seafire,, anytime you want to take a couple 22 cals and go bear huntin I'm game,,, we'll just leave the girls at home.

Hey! I'll pay for the ammo and give you both references with a friend of mine In Alaska. No! not Sahra. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
Well damn Mick, sorry to have offended your delicate self.
And HC all that I can say is that it must really suck to be you.

And Seafire,, anytime you want to take a couple 22 cals and go bear huntin I'm game,,, we'll just leave the girls at home.

Bucko, you need to swing a lot harder and lower to hurt my feelings.

I happen to like Seafire and I don’t know why Hot Core is down on him right now. I wish Hot Core would explain his problem with Seafire and get it out in the open and maybe over.

As far as you Bucko, it’s obvious you didn’t read the entire thread while it was going down. The thing about AR is that people can edit or delete their posts at anytime. I guess you weren’t there when people were touting the merits of the 22 hornet as a head shot elk round.

That’s why you didn’t find any humor in my sarcastic statements like:

“I could kill deer with a “Red Rider” BB gun”

“You need to remember it’s all about shot placement and distance”.

I don’t want to rehash all the arguments, but it was lively, heated at times, but always interesting.

Even though a lot of people didn’t agree with my position, they never insulted me like you did. I find that interesting.

I’m hard as nails, you have to work long and hard to hurt my feelings.

Remember this Bucko,,, Profanity is the linguistic crutch of the inarticulate.

quote:

Poor old seafire.

Thanks HOT Core,

now that I have your empathy, my life is feeling so complete....

Yoda has smiled on my existence!

Mick, damn how did this get here? near as I can tell it was you who started being a smart ass.
But regardless for the record I truly never meant to be insulting to you, if I do choose there won't be any question about it.
And for profanity, my word give me a break,, if you can't handle a little damn and ass ever now and then your scphincter is screwed way too tight.

And your right about me not reading all of the thread, but truly should it make any difference?
Your skin may have been a little raw from some of the dipsticks who were giving you a rash earlier, but it wasn't me mister.
I made a comment in regards to HC's and you took it upon yourself to take a shitty jab at me.
I don't appreciate it, nor will I take crap from the likes of you.
If you want to back off and start over then I'm game, if you want to keep playing this tit for tat crap I am losing interest pronto.

Seafire is a good guy, a better man than I it is obvious.
So if you like him that says a good thing about you.

Funny thing is I got a feeling I would probably like you if we were stuck in a hunting camp together.
That is as soon as you figured out that a few damns, craps, and asses actually doesen't mean a man is illiterate.

So on that note, do you also shoot bare bow or primative?
I made a couple sinew backed Osage bows and have a real hankering to cut some trade points and see if I can't ventilate a feral hog here real soon with one of them.

So theres the ball..

Bucko, I would like to start over with you. We got off track with each other from the get go, sorry about that. Sometimes my typing is to blunt.

Bucko and Mick...

you both are good guys... and it pains me to see two good guys getting into a degraded argument over something piddly...

all this is really academic....

some guys can do things others can't

if both of you are bow hunters, you are definitely better hunters than I will ever be...

to me bow hunters are vastly superior to rifle hunters... they have to know their equipment better and their game anatomy a lot better than rifle hunters...

but I apply a lot of what I have learned from Bow Hunters...and apply it to a rifle..

I've passed on situations where I didnt think the equipment at hand was up to the task.. but then again, have applied equipment at hand, when opportunities presented themselves unexpectedly.. but I have done so by practicing and testing the capabilities with what I had available...

quote:

to me bow hunters are vastly superior to rifle hunters...

I don't know much about bow hunting and I know only a little about rifle hunting but enough to know that I agree with seafire2. You bow hunters hold me in awe!

On my last hunt, I decided to 'hunt' hares (not shoot them). I managed to spook several without seeing any of them first! Nor was I able to find one that I attempted follow and stalk. I have found them in the past by following and stalking them but those were easier conditions. Admittedly, they are blending in with the long dry grass at this time of year, but still! I was allowing myself to be distracted and not paying attention.

Mick then it is a deal, and I apologize if I offended you.

Seafire, thanks.
And as far as hunting with a bow, well I will always be a rifleman first.
I cut my teeth with a rifle in my hand and they say we never forget our first love.
With that said it is kind of interesting how I got into archery.
I had major shoulder surgery many years ago and I soon figured out that the exercises that they had me doing for rehab looked really similiar to pulling a bow back.
So I bought a used compound, set it to low poundage and started flinging arrows at a target every eve.
Well that progressed to a hog hunt and damned if I did not kill one at about 60 yards, and I was hooked.
The problem was though that as my shooting and hunting skills got keener it still felt like I was shooting a short range rifle.
Sights and release and carbon arrows make a modern compound a very easy thing to take game with.
So then I got into instinctive shooting, and my lord what a mouthfull to bite off.
I started out at about 5 feet from the target, the damn arrow kept falling off the shelf, and learning how to get a clean finger release is a mother to discipline yourself for.
Well a long story longer,, I soon realized I had not really been hunting with a rifle, I had been shooting.
Yes I could damn sure shoot, I took dead aim at getting really good at it and built my own rifles and loaded my own bullets,, but with the calibers and the range I was capable of it had become so damned impersonal.
Yes there is a pride in being able to know that you can not only hit a game animal at ranges most would not attempt, but that you put that bullet where you want to like reaching out and touching them.
But after so many of those, well so what.
Another one bites the dust and he might as well have been a slaughter steer in a pen for all of the challenge.
Now the bow thing is different, when you go into the woods with a longbow or a recurve and get within twenty or thirty yards of an unaware game animal you have entered another dimension entirely.
You hear things you never heard before, you smell things you never smelled before.
You feel things you never new you could.
And you realize that you have most likely been far over gunned.
It does give you an entirely new perspective on what is possible in a persons hunting that is for sure.
Getting close becomes a priority, instead of learning how to shoot better, you learn how to creep better.
Studying the game becomes more important, and things you never thought of before become foundations.
It is a great thing for a hunter to do, it gives us more respect for the game we take, more appreciation, and it makes the killing become second place behind the experiance.

Take care, and don't let the bastards get ya down.

Thanks for the insight bucko.

quote:

It is a great thing for a hunter to do, it gives us more respect for the game we take, more appreciation, and it makes the killing become second place behind the experience.

That rings a note for me! Mmmm......

P.S. You have a way with words too!

Caliber has a lot more to do with the shooter then the caliber. If one is willing and able to past up shots one should not be takeing because one is using a smaller caliber. then one can use about anything.

Give me anything from 22rf on up with a bullet that will not blow up on the surface and I'll be eating deer. It most likely take me a bit longer then with something bigger. But I well be eating deer faster then if I was using my bow.

The smallest legal calibre in many places in 6mm/.243. What else matters?

I find this whole thread really very amusing. It is amusing, because it was so patently obvious from the very first post it had less to do with the effectiveness of small calibers on game than it did with calling someone out for some reason not known to majority of us.

It should be apparent to anyone with a fair amount of experience on game there are too many undefined variables in the original post. Deer size, range, bullet construction, and skill of the hunter are but a few of them. I do a fair amount of hunting with a bow, and I can promise you that I could effectively take deer with a .223 on a regular basis if it was what I had available. Or a hornet, for that matter. Extremely short range and accurate bullet placement is a tremendous equalizer. I have shot deer with my .220 Swift, and they were one shot kills that went less than 40 yards, max. Many were DRT. I did not shoot them with that caliber as a stunt, it was what I had available at the time, and it worked very effectively.

By the same token, If I know I am going deer hunting, that is not what I take into the field with me. Our bucks here can run well into the 250 pound range, and distances can be long. I much prefer my 30-06, 270, 308, or 7x57. These are what I normally would call good acceptable deer cartridges. They could go anywhere, be called upon for any type "deer" hunting, and do the job well. It is the job they were made for.

But that is not the question that was originally posted. The original question had to do with "minimums" and "adequacy", both of which terms imply there are going to be some situational caveats. If there are not going to be any of these situational exceptions made, then that should have been stated to begin with, and many of the replies made by folks here would have been much different. My personal idea of the minimum for a go anywhere do anything deer rifle is somewhere in the 25 to 6.5 range, and I would personally prefer a bit heavier.

But to say that at least some deer sized game, in some situations, cannot be EFFECTIVELY harvested with much smaller than normal calibers is just not true. If necessary I would not hesitate to crawl up in my bowstand with a .223 and kill the hell out of deer.

If I really wanted to I would say the 5.56 has been killing people all over the would for quite some time now, and I don't see how a deer is that much different.

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
I find this whole thread really very amusing. It is amusing, because it was so patently obvious from the very first post it had less to do with the effectiveness of small calibers on game than it did with calling someone out for some reason not known to majority of us.

It should be apparent to anyone with a fair amount of experience on game there are too many undefined variables in the original post. Deer size, range, bullet construction, and skill of the hunter are but a few of them. I do a fair amount of hunting with a bow, and I can promise you that I could effectively take deer with a .223 on a regular basis if it was what I had available. Or a hornet, for that matter. Extremely short range and accurate bullet placement is a tremendous equalizer. I have shot deer with my .220 Swift, and they were one shot kills that went less than 40 yards, max. Many were DRT. I did not shoot them with that caliber as a stunt, it was what I had available at the time, and it worked very effectively.

By the same token, If I know I am going deer hunting, that is not what I take into the field with me. Our bucks here can run well into the 250 pound range, and distances can be long. I much prefer my 30-06, 270, 308, or 7x57. These are what I normally would call good acceptable deer cartridges. They could go anywhere, be called upon for any type "deer" hunting, and do the job well. It is the job they were made for.

But that is not the question that was originally posted. The original question had to do with "minimums" and "adequacy", both of which terms imply there are going to be some situational caveats. If there are not going to be any of these situational exceptions made, then that should have been stated to begin with, and many of the replies made by folks here would have been much different. My personal idea of the minimum for a go anywhere do anything deer rifle is somewhere in the 25 to 6.5 range, and I would personally prefer a bit heavier.

But to say that at least some deer sized game, in some situations, cannot be EFFECTIVELY harvested with much smaller than normal calibers is just not true. If necessary I would not hesitate to crawl up in my bowstand with a .223 and kill the hell out of deer.

If I really wanted to I would say the 5.56 has been killing people all over the would for quite some time now, and I don't see how a deer is that much different.

The Colorado Division of Wildlife was not worried about you, Seafire, Bucko, p dog shooter, or even me when they wrote the laws to exclude the use of 22s on big game.

They worried about the guy I sold a 300 Mag to 20 years ago. You all know this guy, he lives in every state of the union. I sold this guy a Ruger 77 (tang safety) 300 Win Mag with an older Redfield scope (made in America, Denver CO in fact) and 40 rounds (my handloads and they were MOA loads) of ammunition. I talked to him around 5 years ago. He said he had been hunting with it every year and that he loved the rifle. He also said that he killed some elk and deer with it (I didn’t ask how many)(he failed to mention how many he wounded). He also said that he hadn’t bought ammunition for it yet because he still had 17 rounds of my loads left. I know for a fact that this rifle is the only center-fire rifle he owns.

I fired three times that many rounds through that rifle in just one day, with test loads. I found that interesting because I didn’t even hunt elk with a gun in those days.

Would this guy practice more if he could hunt with a big 22? No.

Am I sorry I sold a nice rifle to this guy? Hell yes!

Do I wish I had it back?

Is this guy unique? No.

In war, who cares about a clean, humane kill?

My words are not mean to start a fight, they are just my thoughts.

Now that we are all warm and fuzzy again, maybe it's safe to chime in. I also think some of the state laws that set the minimum is for the guys who will put their child out there with a gun that's too small in caliber for deer. I used to see it often in Georgia, and I remember some instances of it in Texas. I don't understand the rational, but it seems to be that the fathers say the son or daughter will learn to shoot better if they don't have to worry about recoil and being hit in the eye brow with the scope.

I remember watching one of those outdoor programs on TV. It was the Texas Trophy Hunter show or something like that. The kids, and one adult, one gun, and a camera person. Anyway, it was the typical over sized Texas deer stand,(cabin on stilts) with the typical corn feeder out front about 100 yards. the kid was so young that she could hardly hold the gun to her shoulder. It was a 223 caliber, maybe one of those ultra high vel Texas wildcats. Anyway she took a shot at a doe at the feeder. the rifle was wobbeling all over the place, despite the padded rest, and it took a long time for the shot. Of course the doe was gut shot, so they got out the "tracking" dog, which I remember being a Jack Russel pooch. They finally found the deer way after dark, and then pined and lamented about how it was a learning proccess for the kid. That was when I vowed to never watch another TTH program. I still feel a bit angst remembering it, and the fact that they felt it was Ok to set up such an event, and then show it on the program, and saw nothing wrong with it.

To state the obvious, in case it's not obvious to some, IMO the child should have practiced more, before actually shooting at game, and it was the adult's responsibility to see to it. Instead the show was more about adult stupidity than about the child, or teaching children about the sport. Certainly it was not about learning or ethical hunting.

That is what I think the state laws in some significant degree are there to try to prevent. Incompetence - too young - or whatever - becomes more evident with a 243 compared to a 223. For one thing, a 243 could produce a bloody eyebrow if not held right, while a 223 is much more forgiving. It may not seem like a significant difference to an adult used to shooting, but it makes a difference in sorting out the child whose ready to hunt deer, and those not yet of age, size or otherwise not ready. Incompetence in an adult has few remedies, except to try to stop it by law.

Some years ago, when my nephew was about 12, and expressed an interest in hunting, I bought him a youth Winchester mod 70 in .308, and a bunch of cheap ammo, and told him when he shot that up practicing under his father's supervision, I would buy him some more. And when he out grew the short stock, I would buy him a full size walnut stock. Made my selection of birthday and Christmas presents for him very easy. Today he is 22, and the 308 Win with the nice checkered walnut stock is still his favorite, and he has taken several deer with it. He did have to track his first deer a long ways though, with the help of his father. But now, we know he can shoot well, but personally, I still watch him.

KB

Just today my fiance was telling me about a 5 year old boy that she had in class that during show and tell told about winning some money this past weekend team roping.
I think that is wonderful, and yet it brought back memories of my own childhood learning how to rope.
I started roping off a horse at age five, but I was eight before I won a check.
The reason is that my father would not let me compete until I could catch the roping dummy one hundred times in a row without missing.
And yes when I thought I was ready he came out to the barn and counted.
I also remember the many days I followed my grandfather deer hunting, carrying an old single shot 22 with no bullets.
He was teaching me gun safety, how to carry a rifle, and how to hunt with other people in a safe manner.
Watching them and their safety as much as my own.
My own son who is seven is doing the same with his little chipmunk 22.
We stalk rabbits and practice safety and burn a lot of shells shooting eggs and other fun stuff.
His awareness of his muzzle and even of mine is so impressive, and it helps me relearn all the things I learned as a child.
The first deer I ever shot was with a lever action 30-30, and yes it was with one shot due mostly to the untold rounds I had fired by then.
That and my Grandfathers instruction in trailing and stalking and gun handling.
Its really only common sense that we first prepare and teach a young person how to shoot accurately, and how to be humane and ethical in their hunting before we put them on live game.
But how many people still do I wonder? nothing so uncommon as common sense anymore it seems.

No it is not good business to turn just anyone loose to hunt big game with a 22 caliber I completely agree.
But to say that a hunter, and I mean especially someone who has bow hunted and done so successfully cannot ethically take game with one is silly.
But it all boils down to the person, can they get close? can they hold their composure? can they let something walk if it is not right? And finally have they practiced enough to be able to easily make a one shot kill on an animal?
My father still laughs at me sometimes when I am practicing with my 338 or 300 mag, he says well hell you can kill them with a bow so why don't you just get rid of all them loud, kicking calibers and just start hunting with your old lever action 30-30 again if you want to rifle hunt?
Good question really and one I just might take more seriously some day.

This thread has turned sensible!

bucko, have you considered starting a hunting school? Your Father was a wise man and he seems to have passed his wisdom on to you. Perhaps other young kids could benefit! If you have the patience to bow hunt and with your childhood training ....? You were obviously determined enough to rope the dummy one hundred times! (And your Dad must have encouraged you). Just a thought. Could keep a few younsters out of trouble!


P.S. Why don't you take up your old lever action? (Just wondering).

Hey Mick,

I agree. I really do not believe that we think that much differently, it just comes off that way in print sometimes. Besides my 22 centerfire varmit rifles, the smallest chambering I own is a .260 Rem. Both my boys and my wife learned to hunt deer with a 7x57. I do believe in using enough gun, even though many of us could get away with something much smaller when needed.

I guess it was just kind of the tone of the thread that set me off a little bit.

JTP, I thought personally that you posted a well thought out piece with a lot of merit.

HC, you have pissed me off a time or two, but now I just feel for you.
Get some help please.

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
Hey Mick,

I agree. I really do not believe that we think that much differently, it just comes off that way in print sometimes. Besides my 22 centerfire varmit rifles, the smallest chambering I own is a .260 Rem. Both my boys and my wife learned to hunt deer with a 7x57. I do believe in using enough gun, even though many of us could get away with something much smaller when needed.

I guess it was just kind of the tone of the thread that set me off a little bit.

JT,

I do believe we think along the same lines. I liked your posts. My typing has got me in trouble more time then I care to remember. Sometimes it reads like I’m agreed but I’m really not. I’m sorry if you thought I was.

Nah Mick, I could tell what you were saying. I agree that most of the rules we have are made for the morons, the folks that have a good dose of sense can tell on their own what they are capable of doing without interference from anyone else. Most morons you can spot right off, but some of them go around incognito and you have to get to know them before you figure it out. Sometimes it ends up being one of those "Oh ****" moments.

I guess I just hate seeing excessive regulation, is all. Once you open that gate, how do you shut it again? What is next, regulating the range at which a person can shoot? I watched a video the other day of a guy who is a marine sniper shoot a buck at 950 meters, flat stoned him with one shot from a .338 Edge. How boring would deer hunting be for him if he was limited to 100 yards, which is the distance that most morons should not be allowed to shoot past? Granted, that is an extreme example, but I bet the folks in England and Australia never planned on all the anti-gun legislation that kicked them in the stones a couple years ago. One of those things you can argue several different ways.

The real truth usually lies somewhere between the extremes.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if a person has the equipment and skills to shoot small caliber, or extreme distances, I think he should be allowed to do it. If we start bringing everyone down to the least common denominator, the world would get boring real quick.

Hey Hot Core, lets go back to school together, we could sit at desks across from each other and shoot spit wades back and forth.

quote:

I agree that most of the rules we have are made for the morons,

Bingo!

303, thank you so much for the vote of confidence.
I have never really thought about teaching a shooting/ hunting schoool for young people.
I don't know if it would be feasible in all honesty with insurance and all of the other logistics involved.
You did spark a bit of interest in me though and I think that I will check into where I could volunteer some time perhaps with an established group that works with kids.
There is a local sportsmans club that would have that information that I will check with.
So thanks again.

Now for the question of why don't I just take up my old 30-30.. Well that it a great question actually, and I am not so sure why at the moment.
Let me chew on this a bit..
Ok I guess that the first thing that comes to mind is that I am kind of two mindsets with my bowhunting and my rifle hunting and have not yet truly learned how to meld them together.
When I am in the woods with my bow my mind takes a turn that brings me back to all that is beautiful about nature and animals and the hunt.
Getting very close to a game animal is as thrilling and makes me feel so much more alive than actually the taking of it.
Yes there is satisfaction and pride and a sense of accomplishment in taking an animal with a bow, although for me now at least it is not just a bow but a traditional set up.
A compound is really just a short range rifle, when I can look through my sights, and touch off my trigger and center a tobacco can at fifty yards,, well it takes some of the mystery out of it for me.
Things just die too easily with that setup.
I go back to it ever so often, and take a couple animals, and it is like whats the big deal anyway?
But when I have to get half that distance closer still, and I can manuever a 68 inch longbow around the brush and the trees without whacking a limbtip, and I have to focus every single thing in me to send a wooden arrow with feathers to its mark using nothing but my feel and instinct, ,now that is a completely different thing entirely.
So now to go rifle hunting, well heck what is there really?
I know that I can get close, I know that I can take animals with primitive equipment, if I am going to get as close as I need to get with my 30-30 well shoot, why not take my bow and try and get just a little closer still I reckon.

I spent a lot, and I mean an awful lot of time learning how to shoot a rifle and shoot it really well.
I have far more rifles than I can ever use, and I won't own one that will not group three shots under an inch, and that is for my bigger guns, my varmint guns the standard is half inch.

So what stirs me about a rifle? well it would be marksmanship.
Being able to place a bullet precisely and effectively.
The knowing that anything that walks within 400 yards is in my zone.
The presentation, the setup, the preperation and yes the execution of the shot and the taking of the game as clean as possible, and yes the size of the trophy is the mindset I have as a rifle hunter.
I guess from sending too many handloads out to 700 yards learning how to read wind and drop and being able to stay hooked and focused through the shot knowing that big bastard is going to jar my molars loose and being able to take the hit without a flinch.
There is pride in that, I worked my ass off to get where I could do that.
So to me that is rifle hunting.

Bow hunting is something else entirely and I don't give a rat's ass if I get a 7x7 or a cow as long as I can get close enough to see them blink and smell it when they pee.
That rocks..

The 30-30 is nice rifle to pack on my horse, or in my hand when I have nothing to do but want a rifle with me to handle whatever happens out to about 200 yards.

I guess I just havent matured enough yet to let my long range capable, dot your eye shooting sticks go.
Nor the mindset of being the deadliest SOB that walks when I have one in my hands.

And the quietness of the bow, and the intimacy of the closeness.

I guess if I want to hunt, I mean really hunt,, I want a trad bow.
And if I want to make a bang, I still want to make a big one.

The 30-30 is kind of like a tweener and I ain't there yet.

You are most welcome!

I am fascinated by your intensity! You really should be teaching some younsters to appreciate nature and the wilds. Even if it is in a game. (They do not need to use live ammo - it's the finding and stalking and getting close). To possess such skills - wow! Have you thought of muzzle loaders? But then why, when you have a bow. The last time I shot a quarry, I regretted killing it. It was 'only' a humble feral goat but that makes no difference - it was an innocent beastie that just stood there wandering what was going on. Mind you, it was after a long and hard hunt, but still, I could have hunted him again had I not shot him. (The best part of that hunt was the youngster I had taken out with me. He is a strong young man who does Gymn training and shows it, and he struggled to keep up with me! Hee, hee ... that was fun! Although it did hurt a bit).

Yup, I would really like to start hunting for the sake of hunting and not killing. It will take work on my part but that would keep me fit so that can only be a good thing!

quote:

Hey 303Guy, I've not laughed that hard in a loooooooooong time.

No, seriously Hot Core. I sincerely believe bucko is a man to be admired! He possess skills I never dreamed possible outside of story books! Think of how much some kids would benefit from such a holiday camp in which they learned real skills and appreciation for their environment. Hell, I know I would have! I sure wish I could have tought my kids such things when they were impressionable. And I sure do wish I had had such a mentor myself! My Dad did what he could under his circumstances and I am greatful to him. He let me shoot to my hearts content! (He turns 90 in a few months - wow! But I haven't seen him in over five years and I never will. Yup).

By the way - thanks for the great thread!

303, I am not sure what I have done to warrant the compliment, but I am going to shut up and just say thank you, I appreciate it.

The taking of life even if it was just a humble goat deserves its own moment.
I feel that I know exactly where you were at in that moment, I have been there myself and spent much time dwelling on the taking of life.
In the beginning, when I was young I was a stone killer, things just died, and died, and died.
And then one day it shifted.
I let a coyote walk that I had meant to kill.
I had stalked him into easy range and then just as I was squeezing the trigger he threw his tail i nthe air and took off running up a snow covered gravel pile.
I just had to watch the silly begger for a while through my scope to see what he was up to, and he was playing like a puppy in the snow.
He would race up that pile as high as he could go and then trun and run as fast as he could down it spraying snow in all direction.
I laid there in the snow watching it all through my scope and he was dead any instant I cared to pull the trigger.
And then instead I just worked the bolt and stuck the shell in my pocket and without disturbing his fun I slipped away and left him to it.
I remember that as being the day that I started to shift.

I still take a lot of game, but it is a different thing now, and it is a serious thing that should affect us emotionally.
That is all part of it I feel, the circle of life includes death and not feeling for our game is not.
taking responsibility for our life and theirs.
I am glad that you took the goat, and I am glad that he made you work for it.
I am most glad however that there was a young new hunter with you that got to learn to put effort into the taking of an animal, and that the taking of a life is a serious thing, and a cause for even a little sadness, even if it is only a humble goat.

Someday when I have time I will tell you about a special mule deer hunt when I took the biggest buck of my life.
It involved an Navajo Indian Shaman, a prayer and a gift, and took ten days of hunting daylight to after dark to take him.
I carried a small piece of turqouise in a pouch around my neck as a gift back to the earth if I were to be so lucky as to take an animal, and a prayer to say in thanks.

It truly changed the way I feel about hunting, and showed me a way to take a life and still feel right with it inside.

I'm glad you let that coyote live! I feel a little sadness after each kill I make. Funny thing, I have developed a fondness and admiration for my 'humble' goats. I think they are great animals! They play, they are so loyal to their mates, they are tough and they are there! And they are so silly and innocent.

Your ten day hunt sounds very appealing! (I'm not sure that I would have the strength to do it but it's great thought!) Mmmm.... You know, I go out hunting and 'expect' to find my quarry when I get to the 'spot'. I think it's time to learn to realy hunt. I like the idea of the "gift back to the earth". I suppose the least I could do is take a few salt licks and leave them there for the deer as a treat. Mmmmm.... My gift to the earth!

It's been great talking to you!

I hate to piss on the parade, but I feel about as much regret killing coyotes as they do when killing a calf, a lamb, or one of my pet cats when I was growing up on a farm.

Have no fear I have no trouble killing them either
In fact I am going Sunday to call all day and I would bet that more than a few bite the dust

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

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Originally posted by bucko:And Seafire,, anytime you want to take a couple 22 cals and go bear huntin I'm game,,, we'll just leave the girls at home.

Hey! I'll pay for the ammo and give you both references with a friend of mine In Alaska. No! not Sahra. roger

Roger,

does that offer stand if we do it here in Oregon, but the only game we end up finding is sage rats, coyotes, the occasional badger and rock chuck?

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Originally posted by seafire2:

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Originally posted by bartsche:

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Originally posted by bucko:And Seafire,, anytime you want to take a couple 22 cals and go bear huntin I'm game,,, we'll just leave the girls at home.

Hey! I'll pay for the ammo and give you both references with a friend of mine In Alaska. No! not Sahra. roger

Roger,

does that offer stand if we do it here in Oregon, but the only game we end up finding is sage rats, coyotes, the occasional badger and rock chuck?

Me thinks that would be hedging the bet just a little. Was thinkg of something a little larger( 400 lbs. + ) that might bite if you didn't place the first one just right.

There are copious Elder stands on Kodiak where you guys can do some fancy stalking and get in real close for a head shot. roger

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I am going Sunday to call all day and I would bet that more than a few bite the dust

Let us know how it goes bucko!

Say, ... you know, ... you have quite a way with the written word, ...

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Someday when I have time I will tell you about a special mule deer hunt when I took the biggest buck of my life.
It involved an Navajo Indian Shaman, a prayer and a gift, and took ten days of hunting daylight to after dark to take him.
I carried a small piece of turqouise in a pouch around my neck as a gift back to the earth if I were to be so lucky as to take an animal, and a prayer to say in thanks.

Have you thought of writing an article about it for a hunting magazine? Just a thought. I have been thinking about that hunt. That must have been quite an experience.
I enjoyed your expression of the coyote playing in the snow!