I know of and have seen the results of one shot kills of whitetail deer with the .22 WMR, .17 HMR, and .22 hornet (all were head and neck shots). Although they, and .22 cal centerfire rifles can and do take deer humanely, I suppose for most hunters, I'd recommends nothing smaller than the 6mm rifles.

For many people, the 30-06 isn't enough for a humane kill BECAUSE THEY CAN'T CONTROL SHOT PLACEMENT. They either are poor shots, or they get too excited when they're taking the shot, or they don't have their gun sighted in properly, etc. and etc.

If your going to shoot a deer in the gut or the butt, your going to need something a bit more than a decent shot is going to need.

SHOT PLACEMENT IS EVERYTHING!

not to continue to stir the pot but Mr. Seafire is correct based on my knowledge. Cathy a little 60ish year old woman that lives next door to my hunting pardner shoots deer out of her horse pasture and off her back deck with a 22 hornet. She was born in Alabama and likes deer meat so she kills a couple per year to eat. She is not what I would call an aficiando of loads, rifles and hunting, she just likes vensison. I guess the deer don't know the difference either. The .22 hornet would not be my first choice but I do think we all get wrapped about the axle a little too tight when thinking of killing stuff. Nothing is going to go too far with a hole thru the pump and lungs. Me I just like a slightly bigger drain hole as its pretty thick where we hunt, but I am never intolerant of any hunter or their choice of equipment. Personally I know 3 people that hunt with 22's and they all seem to eat deer meat.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

Originally posted by jabali:
It is the indian that kill game, not the arrow

about any reasonable centerfire load, from 22 hornet up has more energy than an arrow....

and with arrows, its ALL about shot placement...

Arrows don’t kill from the effects of kinetic energy. They kill by blood letting (Slicing and dicing , not shock). Your 22 Hornet comparison doesn’t hold water.

maybe not in your opinion....

but 'my' 22 Hornet comparison will still cleanly take deer, with proper shot placemenet, within acceptible ranges, with proper bullets....

just as easily as your arrow...

any good hunter will pass on a shot, that he doesnt' think he and his equipment can't take a game animal with reasonable lethality...

I've had deer do the bang flop with minor calibers, and had others go after having shots that should have killed them on the spot.. but they still went forward...

the last 2 seasons, I have heart shot big blacktails that weighed over 175lbs... but still managed to make it 40 yds or so, with a valley thru their heart....

does that make those calibers inadequate??? I don't think so...

I had a 200 lb doe in Wisconsin one season, take a 180 grain Corelokt out of an 06, factory load.. entered right behind the right rib cage as it was quartering away, at 100 plus yards... bullet took out both lungs and exited out the chest.. deer ran off the lake and a good 50 to 60 yds into the woods.. it ran well over a 100 yds after being hit and left a blood trail like it had been poured out of a 2 litre pop bottle..

would mean that load was inadequate either....
yet I have had 22.250 loads drop them on the spot...

my forgone conclusion.. if you hit a deer when its adrenaline is pumping, it will take off and takes more time to die than does one that never knew what him them....

what works is the man that knows his equipment, his quarry and the upper and lower limits of all of the capabilities of each... and applies them...

as wisely said above.. the arrow does not kill the deer, the Indian does...

I wouldn’t disagree with much of anything you said here.

There’s only 2 places you can shoot an animal and be guarantied a bang flop kill. The upper spine or brain shot and it doesn’t matter what caliber the bullet is. As you point out, some animals can travel a long ways after taking a hit through the vitals with “typical” deer rounds.

Knowing that, why would a healthy, full grown man choose to handicap himself by hunting with such a diminutive round like the 22 Hornet? I find the argument fascinating.

I can see the use of a “Big 22” back east in a tree stand or blind, where total visibility is 75 yards and your shooting lanes are around 50 yards. Here in Colorado, I would say that you’re one hell of a sporting man indeed to use a 22 Hornet during the regular rifle seasons.

Just a side note to all here;

If you come to Colorado to hunt, you can bring your 22 Hornet to shoot rabbits and squirrels but if you want to hunt deer and elk, you’ll need to bring a real gun. The use of any caliber under 6mm is illegal for big game.

If you see I speak about indians in the first place, the arrow is just a tool and it is a fact if you put the bullet in the grong place in a deer, you have grate chances of loosin it.

Some time ago I shoot a boar (50 pounds) whit a 375 HH -300 gr. round nose Federal ammo- I hitted in the belly and the boar run away wounded, crossing a grate distance, finaly desapear. On the other hand you have the case of Karamojo Bell, he shot thousands of elephants with a 6,5, 303 and 275 Rigby.

Shoot placement on deer -this is the topic- is everything (or at least 90% of the problem).

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
...Arrows don’t kill from the effects of kinetic energy. They kill by blood letting (Slicing and dicing , not shock). Your 22 Hornet comparison doesn’t hold water.

Hey Mick,

Just couldn't stand it could you? But that is a pure Rookie . You need to ask something that will Fire folks up a bit more. Get them totally Defensive, whether their position makes sense or not.

Something like, "If it is all about shot placement, and any centerfire is Legal where a person Hunts, why isn't it all the rage to be using the 14cal and 17cal Cartridges?" That would be a mid-level

To get it in real perspective though, "If it is all about shot placement, why don't the Poachers(who use whatever they want, Legal or not) just use lung-powered soda-straw Pea Shooters?"

Since the answer is obvious, I'll just take my usual stand that it is not all about shot placement.
-----

Keep practicing Mick, you will get there.

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
Shot a lot a deer with a 22 cal rifles. Mostly 222, 22 hornet, and 22-250. I see no problems as long a you had decent shot placement.

A 22 hornet with a 45grn barns X-bullet kills does pretty darn dead!

Ed

I knew an old guy in CO who shot his elk every year for @ 30 yrs with an old Win 54 in 22 hornet. All neck shots and never had to trail one.
Fact is, if you do your part, a hornet is plenty, if you don't, a 458 Lott is not gonna help you. I've shot a lot of deer & hogs with hornets, 222's (shot a nice hog yesterday with 222 contender). Bullet selection & bullet placement are keys. As a kid, all I used for hog hunting was a Colt Woodsman 22. I killed 50 or so with it (head shots @ <25yds) before folks convinced me that wasn't enough gun
The state laws on caliber are ludicrous. In many states, a 25/20 is legal but a .224 Weatherby, 22-250 or 220 swift are not
I use muzzle loaders & a lot of obsolete calibers (EG:6.5X58R Sauer) but always within their limitations and never had a problem.
As a gunsmith, I see more people with too much gun than not enough. They get talked into loud, heavy recoil rifles that make them flinch. They then will not practice enough, with an uncomfortable rifle, to be competent with it. That person would be better off with a lighter caliber they enjoy shooting and are comfortable with.

An old gunsmith I knew claimed the only way to guarantee one shot kills:
"Match the weight of the bullet to the weight of the game & propel it at the speed of light"
The big bore mentality, I call the "Elmer Keith Syndrome" (rest his soul ). Where you try to match your bore size to your hat size and attempt to impress your friends with it....

All calibres properly used and properly placed are adequate. Some are more efficient and allow a greater margin of error. All calibres improperly used and improperly placed are inadquate.

A 460 Weatherby that "scores" or "creases" the rump is just as useless in dropping DRT any deer as a 22 Hornet - or a 270 - "in the gut".

The smallest cartridge, I would use for Deer sized game would be the 7.62 X 39 m/m.

I have killed one deer with a 22 Hornet, and lost one deer with a 22 Hornet.

I do not like the 243, but IMO, I would like to see Texas make the 243 the minimum allowable caliber for white tails.

In fact what I would like to see, is regulations changed so that there was a minimum of 243 caliber/100 grains bullet weight, with a minimum energy level at 100 yards of 1000 pounds.

I believe that is what a few states already require.

While I think people should be allowed to use what they want to when hunting, I also feel that people are also capable of using both poor judgement and trying to push the envelope, and while they do make some really spectacular kills, I can't help but wonder, how many deer are left in the field to rot and become buzzard bait, simply because the animal did not DRT and because of the caliber and limited experience of the shooter, there either was no blood trail, or the shooter did not know how to look for on or how to follow one if found.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

<snip>a minimum energy level at 100 yards of 1000 pounds.

I believe that is what a few states already require.

While I think people should be allowed to use what they want to when hunting, I also feel that people are also capable of using both poor judgement and trying to push the envelope, and while they do make some really spectacular kills, I can't help but wonder, how many deer are left in the field to rot and become buzzard bait, simply because the animal did not DRT and because of the caliber and limited experience of the shooter, there either was no blood trail, or the shooter did not know how to look for on or how to follow one if found.

The answer to your wonderment, of course is: a lot of them. But I would add that the reason for them is not caliber, but competence. If the deeris hit right, it will die quickly, regardless of caliber. I've seen as many deer lost by large powerful rifles due to idiots taking long and/or irresponsible shots. Along with lack of tracking or shooting skills. I've gone in and found a lot of deer that hunters have told me about shooting "at". Usually the deer was worthless (here in FL we don't have much time to get them cooled out). I guess the point is that caliber or energy requirements wouldn't IMO, change that (number) much. Only education, marksmanship and responsibily will. We need to teach our young hunters and hope the old (dumb ones), get too old to hunt before they do much more damage..

While I agree with the fact that better shooter competence would help, unfortunately humans are involved, and it has been proven over and over again, that without guildelines, humans can and will screw up.

While I do not like any more goverment interference than is necessary, sometimes having regulations that are laid out in black and white, can and does cut down on a certain percentage of inate human ignorance/arrogance.

It takes the question as to whether the killing of an animal Can Be Done With A Certain Caliber, and changes it to one of having a Set Standard For What Is Acceptable for attempting to kill an animal.

I have seen many deer killed with the various 224 caliber, but IMO, the window for error with that diameter bullet is very tiny, where as with a larger caliber, there is a little more room to play with, simply because the larger caliber under the majority of normal hunting situations creates a larger wound channel, usually with a large exit wound and more trauma to the body of the target it comes into contact with. AJMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
While I agree with the fact that better shooter competence would help, unfortunately humans are involved, and it has been proven over and over again, that without guildelines, humans can and will screw up.

While I do not like any more goverment interference than is necessary, sometimes having regulations that are laid out in black and white, can and does cut down on a certain percentage of inate human ignorance/arrogance.

It takes the question as to whether the killing of an animal Can Be Done With A Certain Caliber, and changes it to one of having a Set Standard For What Is Acceptable for attempting to kill an animal.

I have seen many deer killed with the various 224 caliber, but IMO, the window for error with that diameter bullet is very tiny, where as with a larger caliber, there is a little more room to play with, simply because the larger caliber under the majority of normal hunting situations creates a larger wound channel, usually with a large exit wound and more trauma to the body of the target it comes into contact with. AJMO.

All good points, but I will add that many big calibers wind up expending their massive energy in a tree somewhere behind the game and not in the animal. There is such a thing as too much penetration in thin skinned, light, deer sized animals. I'm not a big fan of 22 calibers in most cases as they, along with 243's etc, are terrible destroyers of meat. Again though, the caliber itself has little to do with a clean kill if it's not placed right. That 458 Lott that isn't placed right will result in the same lost animal the misplaced .222 will. Hydrostatic shock can sometimes make a bad hit fatal, but that actually favors the small high velocity bullets that tend to blow up while expending all their energy (and shrapnel) within the animal.

I recall once in VN, we were walking along a rice paddy dike and a VC jumped out of the paddy and ran away from us, We all (the platoon) turned and shot at him for @ 50 yards until he reached a treeline.You could see tracers going into him and see him flinching. 2 men who were snipers were shooting m-14 match rifles (.308's). We went around the dike and followed the blood trail to a bunker where we found a few first aid patch boxes and an empty morphine surret (US issue), but no sign of our boy. He is probably mayor of Saigon now (I hope so). I have no idea how many hits he took, but there were quite a few, none of which were well placed (obviously). One well placed 22lr round would have dropped him in his tracks. Shot placement is EVERYTHING! IMO.
Legislating bigger calibers won't keep idiots from gut shooting running deer in thick brush or taking long, irresponsible shots. They won't compensate for buck fever, and hurried shots or quartering shots etc etc. There might even be more deer that die and rot as many of those poorly shot deer with light calibers survive. Who knows??
Everyone (just about) has an opinion on this & I respect all of them. I just happen to agree with mine..

After hunting in most of the Western and Northern along with some Southern states .

Plus 40 Years of hunting dictates bring enough gun to get the Job Done . 6.5 MM plus for me .

Seen to many run with 6 MM and No one I know personally uses a .224 on Deer .

I view this post as drying a SUV with a Handy Wipe !. Yea it can be done

more to the Point WHY ? , When Chamois's are available !!!.

I would not presume to tell another hunter what he or she ought or ought not use to hunt whitetail deer. In the hands of a competent,confident rifleman deer can be taken with most anything that goes "bang".
For me it must be 257 or larger. My go-to is a 250/3000. It has never failed me!
GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!!

If you hunt our smallish Blacktails here in SEAK, a hornet or bee will kill them quite dead. That said, if you hunt on the ABC islands here you are likely to be shooting them with your bear rifle. Lots of deer being shot with things that say "magnum" after the caliber. Many hunters don't even go deer hunting until after den up for the big bears, then the little guns come out.

I have never contemplated using anything smaller than 25 caliber, but have a couple friends that use a 243 with great success on our little Blacktail. When I was in the 7th grade I went hunting with buddy who had a 222 and I had an 06. That was the last time I new or went hunting with anyone who hunted with something smaller than 243. Lou

quote:

... why would a healthy, full grown man choose to handicap himself by hunting with such a diminutive round like the 22 Hornet? I find the argument fascinating.

If I may attempt to answer this one, I shoot a lot more with my hornet, am pretty good with it (my opinion), I think it is an inadequate caliber for the game I hunt (feral goat) but it is light and comfortable and easy to carry around. When I shoot a goat with it I think it through carefully and place my bullet where it will miss bone to reach the vitals. Those goats just fall over and sometime I end up finishing off my companions goats! When I examine the dead goats I am always surprised at how much damage that little 55gr bullet has done and that the bullet still exited. But I would not attempt to shoot a deer with it. It's just too small a gun (that's my opinion - I don't do head shots). Nor would I use anything lighter than 55gr in it. I do feel handicapped with it but that doesn't stop me from being successful with it. (Maybe having tennis elbow doesn’t qualify me as being ‘healthy’).

I have hunted in the same club for over 30 years, mostly with the same members.We Kill between 50 & 100 deer per year. After a run of wounded deer the farm owner put a $250.00 fine for a failure to recover. All the 243's disapeared from the club, I hunt with a 257 Roberts & a friend uses a 25'06, everything else in 270,7 rem or 30'06. Our land is a mix of big fields & swamp, if a deer runs 30 yds in the swamp you have to get a tracking dog to find it. In the swamp I use a 35 Whelen. I do not & never have understood why people want to brag about how small a round they use on deer, my goal is to kill the deer as fast and painless as possible.

I think the reverse of the "Super Magnum" fad has become the. "Look at me, I use the smallest caliber possible" fad.

I understand that as an American, that every one of my fellow countrymen is a god given great shot. And to suggest otherwise is like calling his momma a bad cook.

But jesus H, is your ego more important than losing an animal.

I know it would never happen, but what if you made a "marginal" shot on a deer with a .22?

Anyone that hunts with anything less than a .243 needs to take a long look in the mirror IMHO.

Really Good post Bulls 24/7.

quote:

I do not & never have understood why people want to brag about how small a round they use on deer, my goal is to kill the deer as fast and painless as possible.

X2 roger

quote:

Originally posted by Bulls24/7:
I think the reverse of the "Super Magnum" fad has become the. "Look at me, I use the smallest caliber possible" fad.

I understand that as an American, that every one of my fellow countrymen is a god given great shot. And to suggest otherwise is like calling his momma a bad cook.

But , is your ego more important than losing an animal.

I know it would never happen, but what if you made a "marginal" shot on a deer with a .22?
.

WOW! Four in a row. X5 roger

quote:

Originally posted by Bulls24/7:
I think the reverse of the "Super Magnum" fad has become the. "Look at me, I use the smallest caliber possible" fad.

I understand that as an American, that every one of my fellow countrymen is a god given great shot. And to suggest otherwise is like calling his momma a bad cook.

But jesus H, is your ego more important than losing an animal.

I know it would never happen, but what if you made a "marginal" shot on a deer with a .22?

Anyone that hunts with anything less than a .243 needs to take a long look in the mirror IMHO.

The “hunting elephants with a Bee Bee gun” crowd has been around for a long time. They come out of the woodwork about twice a year, which is normally how many times this subject comes up on this forum. (I’m trying my best to Hotcore!)

But seriously Bulls24/7, this is a very good post from my point of view.

Over time the cartridge of choice for me when I'm deer hunting has gotten smaller. Currently the 6.5x55 is what I've used when I'm hunting where there are no brown bears, such as down South. My favorite carry gun for deer hunting in the domain of the brown bear is a 338 or 35 Whelen or 9.3x62. I have carried and shot deer with a 375.

But recently I bought a 257 Roberts, that I'm anxious to try. IMO, that's the smallest legitiment deer cartridge. Anything smaller is a lark.

I have used the 7.62x39 for deer, and sure it kills deer, but I lost one too.

I get rather annoyed reading the arguments that it's all about shot placment, head and neck shots, meat hunting and poaching. Personally, I remember the ones that got away wounded just as much or more than the ones DRT.

Here in Texas a LOT of deer are killed with cartridges like the 223 and the 22-250.

I have killed 2 deer with a 223 myself, a Steyr AUG of all things. I considered it a stunt, as I strictly controled the shots I took.

If the proper shjot was not avialable I was prepared to go home without a deer.

For general purpose deer hunting I think the 243 Win, 6MM Rem is the best place to start.

If hunting deer in thick timber and jumping them up I would want a larger bore heavier bullet.

I didn't finish my post because my computer started acting up. It seems ok now after rebooting.

Anyway, on the family farm in Georgia, my brother and nephew had been watching a really nice buck with antlers bigger each year. Every year he left a very distinct scrape line on the edge of the pines next to the hardwood bottom. They would see him often, but never at the right time and place for a good shot, most often when driving home at night. The nephew was about 15 at then time, and my brother doesn't hunt, so they weren't too devoted, mostly lookers.

Well the local rednecks leased ten acres next to the farm, and all sorts of strangers started showing up. The lease holders weren't even hunting it for themselves. I figured out that they were putting out corn and other bait, attracting mostly does. Legal in Texas, but not so in the rest of the civilized world. I just happened to be there that November, and was hunting too. I heard the shot from the lease right at dawn.

So, the morning went on, and I was walking on the road near my brother's house, and that big buck ran across the road in front of me. I had already put my rifle away. He was limping badly on his left front leg. Later, the rednecks and a stranger poped out of the woods on the deer's trail. They were on the farm, not the lease. I had a chance to talk to them, and the guy who made the shot. The rifle was one of those single shot handy rifles in 22 Hornet, unless my memory fails. I know it was single shot and 22 hornet. The deer was hit in the shoulder. The guy said it was a broadside shot.

Anyway, that deer lived another year, and my nephew shot him with his 308. The wound had infected, and mostly healed, but the deer still had a limp, and his antlers were deformed.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I have mine too. Sure shot placment, and picking your shots is great for those who have common sense, and restraint. But that guy didn't learn a damn thing from his 22 hornet experience. Deer hunting and shooting isn't an exact science. Mistakes are inevitable. For sport hunting, for me the point of it is to do what I can to minimize the escape wounded, by using restraint, shot placment, and using an adequate gun - not a minimal cartridge, but something with more certainty. The odds are that some deer will escape wounded, but IMO those odds become greater the smaller the cartridge.

Some people don't care, but I don't get to go as often as I would like, and I don't get the shots that I would like, especially on a good buck, so that's why I'll never carry a rifle smaller than a 243 for deer hunting. I don't own a 243, and don't plan on buying one, thus the 257 R is my minimum.

KB

There seems to be several patterns that I have observed with hunters.

1. When there is a screw up it is always the gun's or the cartridge's fault.

2. When you dig down deep a lot of folks kill deer with .22 center fires because they don't like recoil.

I think the 6MM Rem or .243 is ok with excellent shot placement but only to about 200 yards. At 300 yards they run out of steam.
I have found the .25-06 to be much better at the longer ranges. However I consider my personal limit to be 300 yards regardless of the caliber or rifle.

quote:

I think the 6MM Rem or .243 is ok with excellent shot placement but only to about 200 yards. At 300 yards they run out of steam.

OH?????.....on a recent "meat hunt" (doe fawn herd reduction) in Wyoming the longest shot we made was with a 6mm Remington at 550 yards!

We had fun with it as we only took long shots and many shots were over 400 yards....the 6MM was outstanding!

per usual threads like this follow the same path, albeit this one has maintained a much better than average amount of civility to it...

However when folks start talking back and forth on this subject, way too many have an attitude that reminds me of a George Carlin observation that most people have about themselves versus other drivers...

The Carlin observation;
Did you ever notice the number of drivers who think anyone going SLOWER than them is an IDIOT.... but anyone going FASTER than them is a MANIAC?

point being the number of folks who think they are the EXACT Perfect Example of what a hunter should carry for that game in that situation....

Anyone carrying a smaller caliber is undergunned, anyone carrying a larger caliber is overgunned... and anyone who is carrying the exact same caliber and load they MUST be a friggin Genius!

too many folks get self centered, and instantly think they have more knowledge than someone who tackles the same problem with a different solution... and then start speaking volumes of failures they are aware of to justify their being the most intelligent hunter with the perfect solution to deer hunting...

Just an observation... but anyone can feel free to point out where I am wrong....

I go back to the ezample given above by another forum member, that I really like... 'The arrow doesn't kill the game, the Indian does'...

It's necessary to use a calibre a lot on game with different bullets to get a true idea of it's capability. You also need to be able to be self critical.

I use a 243 a lot. I stalk the small roe deer where by experience I have found that flatish shooting calibre with reasonably expansive bullets larger than 243 make holes bigger than I or my gamedealer are comfortable with. Seeing as my 243 is IMHO perfection on roe I end up using it a lot on bigger deer as I will often stalk fallow in the evening after a morning on roe.

I've shot a lot of fallow with various bullets and I can state that it is a lovely round that does require precise placement and that very occasional freaky things can happen that probably wouldn't with bigger calibres. Most of the freaky occurances are experience down to too much or not enough expansion which is why bullet choice is so critical. I do think that with big deer it is important to go a little further forward and higher up. Pure lung shots are really to be avoided.

I don't use it out of choice on bigger deer but feel that it is capable if used with care. Most of the horror stories relate to deer that are never recovered for autopsy and IMHO are wounded due to poor placement.

I have to say it's still all in the hunter's responsibility. His ability to know his gun (and his) limitations. The people who decry those shooting smaller calibers (with success in most cases) are the same ones bragging about shooting deer at 3-4-500 yards. IMO, those long shots (with any caliber) are more irresponsible than using small caliber rifles and placing your shots properly. I've shot hundreds of deer & hogs, elk, antelope, bear etc etc. over a half century of hunting. I've never had a problem with lost deer using small calibers (222, 6x47 etc). But I never, ever shoot a deer over 100 yards, Never shoot a running deer. I know the guns,the loads and I shoot a lot. I can't recall ever losing a deer and only one bear (shot with a .338). My point is that, caliber is irrelevant: hunting & shooting skills are. Small calibers actually enhance those skills for the conscientious hunter without losing or wounding game. I also use some obsolete slow moving calibers like my 9.3 X72 & 6.5X58R drillings. I always shoot high shoulder shots with them to avoid long tracking chores and suffering animals.
If those here who criticize small caliber shooters are right, bowhunting should be outlawed, as well as handgun hunting & many muzzleloaders...
You can't legislate away stupidity

It is good that you have the experience and abilities that you do, BUT, since legislating human stupidity is out of the question, it is easier to give the average BOZO some sort of guideline/starting point.

Not everyone hunts under the same conditions, nor for the same deer, white tails vary in many ways North To South and East to West.

Some or many states already have set minimums as far as caliber/bullet weight/energylevels, of CF rifles/shotgun gauges/ML calibers and projectile weights/handgun calibers/bow pull weights/crossbow draw weights.

The thing that has to be concentrated on, IS NOT the experienced hunter/shooter, but the once a year 2 or 3 trip Wally World Wonder, that tries to duplicate something he read/saw or heard somewhere.

If some sort of standard is in place, then the folks that decide a 204 Ruger or a 17 Remington or a 19 Calhoon would be the PERFECT DEER cartridge are SOL, and won't be out in the field possibly wounding a bunch of stuff, simply because, A, They Do Not Have The Necessary Experience Or Disipline To Understand That Trying To Prove Something Just To Say They Did It, and B, Even Though There Will Be Deer Wounded Because Of Poor Shot Placement With A Larger Caliber, There May Be Or Will Be Fewer Deer Lost, And The Nimrod That Shot It Will Get A Lesson In Following A Blood Trail.

I am not fond of more rules and regulations, but I am less fond of seeing folks that clearly do not have the experience or ability, shooting deer, or anything else for that matter with marginal calibers.

While I am a fan and user of the larger caliber rifles, I rarely recommend them to anyone.

I would not have a 243 if someone offered it, I do not like them, but I will recommend them to a beginning hunter in a heart beat, simply because I believe it is a better option than any of the 224's.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

I think the 6MM Rem or .243 is ok with excellent shot placement but only to about 200 yards. At 300 yards they run out of steam.

OH?????.....on a recent "meat hunt" (doe fawn herd reduction) in Wyoming the longest shot we made was with a 6mm Remington at 550 yards!

We had fun with it as we only took long shots and many shots were over 400 yards....the 6MM was outstanding!

Yeah
That is right. It is easy to hit a deer at those longer distances but you don;t have much energy left. Try you same shots in broken timber at those distance and you will loose animals because they will not go down before the get out of sight. Some 6mm bullets do not expand well at that range.
I shot one deer at approx. 360 yards. His nose was pointed into a light breeze and the bullet drifted about 14". The aiming point was where his antlers exited his skull. The rifle was sighted for 200 yards and the bullet struck him midway between his brisket and withers. the bullet penetrated through his chest and exited without expanding. Later I shot a running buck at 80 yards with a round from the same box of ammo. The bullet performance on this buck was excellent. It shot through his fore quarters at a 45° angel and exited leaving a wound that you might expect from a larger cartridge. They were Hornady 100 grn spitzers with a velocity at 15 feet of 3003 FPS. I have 2 brothers that have also hunted a lot with either a 6mm or 243. These and other experiences with the 6mm/243 have caused these round to be left to varminting most of the time. One of them uses a 30-06 the other a .270 and I might use anything between a 25-06 and a 45-70. I do limit my range to what is appropriate for the cartridge.
None of us care for any after the shot drama.
It is odd that some folks will often refuse to hunt deer with a 30-30 but they will shoot deer at such extreme ranges that the terminal ballistics of their rounds are about like 50 yard ballistics with a 25-20 or 25-35.

Although I stated earlier the 22 centrefire cals are effective on deer I have found their biggest limitations come when you wish to drop the deer quickly and consistently (ie not having it run 50m somewhere and then dropping). This is particularly important in very late evening when it can be very hard to locate a deer that has run a distance from the initial strike of the bullet without a dog. It is also hard to see a blood trail right on dark and this is where a heavier calibre that shoots in one outside and out the other often leaves a trail like a bucket of blood has been tipped out (I have seen this numerous times with a 7mm08 vs the smaller cals such as 243, 222 etc).
That said though I have shot deer with 222, 223, 22 250, 243, 25 06, 7mm 08 and 270 and inside 150 yards with time for proper shot placement they all do the job well.
The big stuff ups tend to happen with the little calibres when the animal doesn't drop at the first shot, you lose your cool and then it all turns to sh*t!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
It is good that you have the experience and abilities that you do, BUT, since legislating human stupidity is out of the question, it is easier to give the average BOZO some sort of guideline/starting point.

Not everyone hunts under the same conditions, nor for the same deer, white tails vary in many ways North To South and East to West.

Some or many states already have set minimums as far as caliber/bullet weight/energylevels, of CF rifles/shotgun gauges/ML calibers and projectile weights/handgun calibers/bow pull weights/crossbow draw weights.

The thing that has to be concentrated on, IS NOT the experienced hunter/shooter, but the once a year 2 or 3 trip Wally World Wonder, that tries to duplicate something he read/saw or heard somewhere.

If some sort of standard is in place, then the folks that decide a 204 Ruger or a 17 Remington or a 19 Calhoon would be the PERFECT DEER cartridge are SOL, and won't be out in the field possibly wounding a bunch of stuff, simply because, A, They Do Not Have The Necessary Experience Or Disipline To Understand That Trying To Prove Something Just To Say They Did It, and B, Even Though There Will Be Deer Wounded Because Of Poor Shot Placement With A Larger Caliber, There May Be Or Will Be Fewer Deer Lost, And The Nimrod That Shot It Will Get A Lesson In Following A Blood Trail.

I am not fond of more rules and regulations, but I am less fond of seeing folks that clearly do not have the experience or ability, shooting deer, or anything else for that matter with marginal calibers.

While I am a fan and user of the larger caliber rifles, I rarely recommend them to anyone.

I would not have a 243 if someone offered it, I do not like them, but I will recommend them to a beginning hunter in a heart beat, simply because I believe it is a better option than any of the 224's.

I agree with you on the 243. It's about my least favorite caliber (duck ). As a gunsmith for 40 years, I have a lot of folks ask my opinion on calibers. I always advise they get the largest one they can shoot comfortably. I recommend they go to the range and ask to shoot some of the guns there. Believe it or not, I've seen almost no "neophyte nimrods" using very small calibers 22 CF's etc for deer. Mostly they are experienced hunters who are intimately familiar with their weapons and hunt/shoot a lot. I would also say that I've seen as many or more deer lost using 7mm mags, Ought 6's, etc than I have 222's & 223's. Probably for the above reasons.
The guy buys a rifle from a salesman, who convinces him he can hit anything he can see etc etc. He "bore" sights it with a "collimater" and tells him it's all sighted in. Hands him a box of ammo and sends him out the door...
Most of the states that have caliber restrictions are bore diameter, which is ridiculous. You can shoot a 25/20 or a 25 auto in some states where you can't use a 22/250. I also think energy numbers are ridiculous though. I kill several deer each season with my flintlock 50. It has less energy than a .222 which has more than a 44 magnum...
I guess you could draft a law that required a certain caliber, sectional density, bullet weight, jacket to core ratio, velocity, limit range of the shots, etc etc, but you'd stil have lost game that rots or suffers from poor hunting skills, buck fever, or whatever. Education is far more effective.
I'm also opposed to regulation, but I'd vote for a hunter competency requirement (in addition to safety) that requires a demonstration of marksmanship, teaches hunter responsibility, shoot-don't shoot situations, following wounded game, etiquette etc etc. before ANYONE can get a license. That would go much further IMO to reduce wasted wildlife and boost hunter image to the non-hunting public.

Those are things I teach my 4H marksmanship club.

quote:

Most of the horror stories relate to deer that are never recovered for autopsy and IMHO are wounded due to poor placement.

Well, just yesterday I witnessed a 308 being used on feral goat and it was not an all powerful, all stopping, DRT cartridge! Not yesterday anyway. Nor was my 303-25. Usually my 22 hornet (with heavy bullets) drops them in their tracks. The one that got away - that is, we were unable to give it a follow-up shot - took a frontal chest shot but managed to run down a steep incline to who knows where. The other that got away, we did not even see where he ran! Poor shot placement? A heart shot would allow them to run off into dense bush. I just don't know. One of them had a solid chest hit and still got up and ran when approached. Mating season? From that experience, I am leaning towards 'bigger is better'! (We hunt feral goat to control their numbers).

quote:

... After a run of wounded deer the farm owner put a $250.00 fine for a failure to recover. All the 243's disapeared from the club ...

Tells us something!

quote:

When you dig down deep a lot of folks kill deer with .22 center fires because they don't like recoil.

I fitted a mini-suppressor/muzzle break onto my 303 Brit to that end. It works a treat!
Likewise my 303-25. It is great to have low muzzle blast and low recoil!

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
per usual threads like this follow the same path, albeit this one has maintained a much better than average amount of civility to it...THIS SEEMS ABOUT RIGHT


point being the number of folks who think they are the EXACT Perfect Example of what a hunter should carry for that game in that situation....

Anyone carrying a smaller caliber is undergunned, anyone carrying a larger caliber is overgunned... and anyone who is carrying the exact same caliber and load they MUST be a friggin Genius!

""""too many folks get self centered, and instantly think they have more knowledge than someone who tackles the same problem with a different solution... and then start speaking volumes """"

Just an observation... but anyone can feel free to point out where I am wrong....

Not wrong but perhaps a little introspection would be in order here. roger

For meat hunting, where you can pass up a shot or two, a .223 will kill deer fine. When trophy hunting and you may have to take a bad angle or go home, you need a .270 or bigger. This is why there is so much discrepancy. During the winter doe season, I have no problem using a .223 or .220 Swift, just pick a broadside doe and they are dead. During the buck season, I shot a big buck running almost straight away with a 7x57 and 140 tSX, the bullet entered in front of the back legs, came out of his forehead. Different situations require different rifles. Deer however are easy to kill as are antelope.

Well I admit it...

you guys have made me see the error of my ways....

I have traded off all of my 22 caliber rifles yesterday and replaced them with 375 H & Hs for varminting... and 460 Weatherbys for deer hunting...

For elk I have just moved up and picked up a Surplus Abrams Tank... that 120 mm on it, is excellent for long range, and is hard hitting...

little excessive on the meat damage tho...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
Well I admit it...

you guys have made me see the error of my ways....

I have traded off all of my 22 caliber rifles yesterday and replaced them with 375 H & Hs for varminting... and 460 Weatherbys for deer hunting...

For elk I have just moved up and picked up a Surplus Abrams Tank... that 120 mm on it, is excellent for long range, and is hard hitting...

little excessive on the meat damage tho...

Well it's about damn time you woke up!!