I've seen lots of deer killed with .243's but prefer something with a little more poop than the 6mm's can give. .257 Bob is about as good as it gets as a "starting point" (I hate that term, the .257 will easily drop a nice monster buck at any reasonable range). A bit more weight and diameter than the .243's give just enough buffer for my liking.

It's a personal thing though. I know some folks who've used .223's to drop their deer, even though it is illegal here.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
...LOL,,,,, and than again, you may have just killed the thread.

Just have to with the right verbage - like:

Hey brayhaven, Aren't you the same guy who "claims" the (rag) M70s are better than the Remingtons?
-----

22Hornets for Elk? Did he down-load the 22Hornet as Seafire suggested?

There you go Mick - defense of the 22Hornet on Elk!

Well I can see this thread has left the realm of reason and headed into the ridiculous.

Actually he had the same box (started with 50) cartridges he'd had for years (winchester) factory. It was the only rifle he owned.

"Adequate is defined as "able to satify a requirement" Therefore any caliber that does the job is adequate. What's adequate for one person, or situation, may not be for another. But you seem to always sink to personal attacks when you get into these discussions. Which takes away from your credibility, IMO.

And yes I do think the Pre-64 mod 70, 98 mauser etc. (and most other BA's) are better designed than the 700 Rem. But I'm sure you brought that up to win friends

You remind me of an old professor I had. he was often wrong, but seldom in doubt..

"It ain't ignorance as much as folks knowin' a lot that just ain't so." Josh Billings

"Adequate is defined as "able to satisfy a requirement" Therefore any caliber that does the job is adequate.

There is also a word called “sufficient” (Being as much as is needed) the word can be used as;

Sufficient

Marginally Sufficient

Barely Sufficient

Barely Sufficiently adequate.

And so on and so forth.

The key word there is Marginal, look that up in your dictionary.

Before everyone runs down the road wringing their hands about the 257 Roberts or most of the other 257's, with the exceptions of the 25-20 and possibly the 25-35.

If folks will go back and read a little of Mr. Jack O'Connor's history, they will notice that his wife Eleanor was an accomplished Big Game hunter in her own right, and if I remember correctly, she used a 257 Roberts to kill quite a few critters.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
"Adequate is defined as "able to satisfy a requirement" Therefore any caliber that does the job is adequate.

There is also a word called “sufficient” (Being as much as is needed) the word can be used as;

Sufficient

Marginally Sufficient

Barely Sufficient

Barely Sufficiently adequate.

And so on and so forth.

The key word there is Marginal, look that up in your dictionary.

No "Mickin" the key word in THIS thread is ADEQUATE. But of course, "sufficient" is probably even more forgiving in this context. Read the heading again. That was the question. It wasn't about your favorite caliber for deer, etc. I'm not even an advocate of 22's for deer. My favorite deer rifle is a 50 caliber (flintlock) next would be a 62... The question was "adequate" The definition stands, as does my argument that "adequate" depends on the hunter & the situation.
In the early 1920's, anthropologists & zoologists visiting Alaska's Inuit people brought back numerous polar bear skulls with a 22 rimfire hole in the top. The hunters (team of 2) would sit over a breathing hole for long periods. When the polar bear emerged for air, one shot it through the skull & the other speared it with a barbed harpoon to recover it. Is a 22 rimfire "adequate" for Polar bear??? In that situation, for those hunters, it certainly was. Just as the Colt Woodsman 22 was "adequate" for many hogs I killed as a kid and for the old guy I knew who always shot his elk with the hornet. Yes, they were "adequate". THAT was the question posed by this thread...
I've never shot a deer with a hornet, but have shot countless hogs which are much tougher. My std hog rifle now is a 222 contender carbine. When I see a nice deer when I'm hunting hogs with that, I put him down. Never lost one. Never had to shoot one twice. That would be called "adequate" by any standard or any definition. Try to stay with me here.. If I go out hunting for deer, I might take one of my drillings in 9.3 or 8x57 or a single shot #1 in 30/30 AI... or any one of many others. But the qestion was not what do you use? What do you recommend? what do you prefer? What is best?? etc etc. Go read the question again....

I know I took this off topic a little asking Hot Core what he preferred. I was seriously interested because of the amount of experience he has.

As far as the 25's go, they are very good deer killing cartridges.

But I think what Hot Core is trying to tell everyone is that there is a difference between just killing a deer and stopping them in their tracks. If I had has much experience chasing shot or wounded deer in thick nasty country. I would probably prefer DRT, plus two great big holes for a solid blood trail, if they decided to try an leave the area.

I fully understand the point he is trying to get across. Why use adequate, when there are better choices.

I listed some reasoning in a previous thread. The list was not all inclusive, just some ideas off the top of my head.

I personally used adequate to prove people wrong. It works, and it has worked better than I expected.

I have an aquaintance that is part owner in a gun shop. He has shot a quite few deer with a 204 Ruger and factory ammo. Is it adequate? It did the job. He only got an entrance hole on most rib shots and DRT with head/neck shot placement. No doubt in my mind he did it as a stunt.

The Colorado regulations are very sensible minimums. South Dakota has similar regulations:

Deer, Antelope and Mt Lions
Shoulder held firearms using ammunition factory rated to produce at least 1,000 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle, and handguns using ammunition that is factory rated to produce at least 500 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle. Only soft point or expanding bullets are permitted.
-Most common centerfire rifle calibers meet the minimum standards. Among calibers NOT legal are: 17 Remington, 218 Bee, 22 Hornet, 25-20, 30 Carbine, 32-30, 38-40, and 44-40.
-Some common calibers handgun hunters MAY use are the: 357 Magnum, 10mm, 41 magnum, 44 magnum, 45 win magnum, 357 maximum.
-Muzzleloading rifles must shoot a 44 caliber or alrger bullet.
-Shotguns must discharge a single ball or rifled slug weighin at least one-half ounce. Bucksot is prohibited.

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
"Adequate is defined as "able to satisfy a requirement" Therefore any caliber that does the job is adequate.

There is also a word called “sufficient” (Being as much as is needed) the word can be used as;

Sufficient

Marginally Sufficient

Barely Sufficient

Barely Sufficiently adequate.

And so on and so forth.

The key word there is Marginal, look that up in your dictionary.

No "Mickin" the key word in THIS thread is ADEQUATE. But of course, "sufficient" is probably even more forgiving in this context. Read the heading again. That was the question. It wasn't about your favorite caliber for deer, etc. I'm not even an advocate of 22's for deer. My favorite deer rifle is a 50 caliber (flintlock) next would be a 62... The question was "adequate" The definition stands, as does my argument that "adequate" depends on the hunter & the situation.
In the early 1920's, anthropologists & zoologists visiting Alaska's Inuit people brought back numerous polar bear skulls with a 22 rimfire hole in the top. The hunters (team of 2) would sit over a breathing hole for long periods. When the polar bear emerged for air, one shot it through the skull & the other speared it with a barbed harpoon to recover it. Is a 22 rimfire "adequate" for Polar bear??? In that situation, for those hunters, it certainly was. Just as the Colt Woodsman 22 was "adequate" for many hogs I killed as a kid and for the old guy I knew who always shot his elk with the hornet. Yes, they were "adequate". THAT was the question posed by this thread...
I've never shot a deer with a hornet, but have shot countless hogs which are much tougher. My std hog rifle now is a 222 contender carbine. When I see a nice deer when I'm hunting hogs with that, I put him down. Never lost one. Never had to shoot one twice. That would be called "adequate" by any standard or any definition. Try to stay with me here.. If I go out hunting for deer, I might take one of my drillings in 9.3 or 8x57 or a single shot #1 in 30/30 AI... or any one of many others. But the qestion was not what do you use? What do you recommend? what do you prefer? What is best?? etc etc. Go read the question again....

A primitive shooter, flintlock no less, I’m starting to like you brayhaven. Your question was;

“The question was "adequate" The definition stands, as does my argument that "adequate" depends on the hunter & the situation.”

Adequate is subject to the law first and than to a persons own conscious. I tire of the argument. You win, I’m the loser.

Thanks for the insight, folks. Today I took my son out on his first hunt (feral goat, no less). He chose the 303 No.4 two-groove with muzzle device (suppressor/muzzle break). It was loaded with 180gr Highland bullets in from of a not too hot charge. He did me proud with his first ever kill. Nice big black Billy. Thing is, I could not see any difference between the 303 hits and the 303-25 hits of a few days before! His goat needed another shot to make him 'go to sleep'. (Well, he didn't actually need it but he wasn't quite 'asleep' yet. He managed to go a short distance before lying down with a good solid frontal chest shot).

I should mention, the muzzle device solves the problem of recoil/muzzle blast sensitivity. That thing is just so sweet to shoot with - it's like a Hornet - a suppressed Hornet!

I shall try heavier bullets in the 25 to see if they shoot well. In the meantime, I'll stay away from big Reds with it. (Our Reds are crossed with Wapiti - your Elk - some of them).

I'm going to vote for 303 Brit as 'adequate' for deer, if that's OK with you folks! (With heavier bullets - I like heavier bullets).

My Dad used to hunt Cape buffalo with a 35 Remington pump action. He once shot two with one bullet - the bullet passed through the chest of the first and broke the shoulder of the second, which he then had to finish off. He was a heart shot man. He probably did not meet up with and old cantankerous loner with a bad headache (since he is still alive to tell his tale).

quote:

My Dad used to hunt Cape buffalo with a 35 Remington pump action.

I think adequate (killing power) and stopping power comes into play once again.

Where does everyone think the line is for deer cartridges on killing power vs stopping power?

IMO it lies somewhere between 25's and 270. I just don't have enough experience to form an opinion on the 6.5's.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Thanks for the insight, folks. Today I took my son out on his first hunt (feral goat, no less). He chose the 303 No.4 two-groove with muzzle device (suppressor/muzzle break). It was loaded with 180gr Highland bullets in from of a not too hot charge. He did me proud with his first ever kill. Nice big black Billy. Thing is, I could not see any difference between the 303 hits and the 303-25 hits of a few days before! His goat needed another shot to make him 'go to sleep'. (Well, he didn't actually need it but he wasn't quite 'asleep' yet. He managed to go a short distance before lying down with a good solid frontal chest shot).

I should mention, the muzzle device solves the problem of recoil/muzzle blast sensitivity. That thing is just so sweet to shoot with - it's like a Hornet - a suppressed Hornet!

I shall try heavier bullets in the 25 to see if they shoot well. In the meantime, I'll stay away from big Reds with it. (Our Reds are crossed with Wapiti - your Elk - some of them).

I'm going to vote for 303 Brit as 'adequate' for deer, if that's OK with you folks! (With heavier bullets - I like heavier bullets).

My Dad used to hunt Cape buffalo with a 35 Remington pump action. He once shot two with one bullet - the bullet passed through the chest of the first and broke the shoulder of the second, which he then had to finish off. He was a heart shot man. He probably did not meet up with and old cantankerous loner with a bad headache (since he is still alive to tell his tale).

I'd be interested to know more about that muzzle device you're using. All the muzzle brakes I've seen greatly increase the noise, while reducing recoil.

Your Dad must have (had) cajones the size of grapefruit to shoot buffalo with a 35 Rem. I built a 375 Taylor for a customer last year (@ 10% more vel than H&H) and he came back from his Buffalo hunt wanting a bigger gun. Said it took 6 shots to put him down. He now has a 458 Lott for the next trip. He's an excellent shot and hunter & was shooting the 375 Taylor (Ruger action) under an inch.
Robert Ruark said "Cape Buffalo look at you like you owe em money".

BTW: IIRC, Karamojo Bell found the 303 "adequate" for elephant So I'm sure it's adequate for deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
I know I took this off topic a little ...

Take it in any direction you guys want. That is one of the things I like about this Board - free flowing threads.
-----

Hey 303Guy, Any idea what kind of Bullet your Dad was using to get that much penetration from a 35Rem?

Congratulations to you and your Son on the Goat Kill. Feel free to toss flicks in if you have them.
-----

Hey Mick, Did you say, "I’m starting to like you brayhaven.", to ?

Come to think of it, I do believe it it your turn for

LOL Hotcore, I’ve p_ssed and moaned so much I’m out of p_ss and I can’t see where I’ve mark one inch of territory. Hotcore you can for a while.

Now we have gone from trying to have a reasonable conversation about something to pure Bull Shit.

1. Deer do not charge, so you don't have to stop them.

2. Dropping a deer in its tracks is soley dependent on bullet placement, not size, not power level, not price of the gun or the scope.

3. Many calibers will kill a deer and if the bullet from any of those calibers is placed properly, will drop the deer in its tracks.

Now, we are back to square one, for the AVERAGE PERSON, Not All Of Us World Class/Cool Ass On Line Hunters, there are some calibers that new hunters/beginning hunters/inexperienced hunters, probably SHOULD NOT start out with, but work their way into, whether up the caliber scale or down.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

1. Deer do not charge, so you don't have to stop them.

It may be rare but just this year or late last year I witnessed a young buck charge a range officer that was trying to shoe him out of there. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Before everyone runs down the road wringing their hands about the 257 Roberts or most of the other 257's, with the exceptions of the 25-20 and possibly the 25-35.

If folks will go back and read a little of Mr. Jack O'Connor's history, they will notice that his wife Eleanor was an accomplished Big Game hunter in her own right, and if I remember correctly, she used a 257 Roberts to kill quite a few critters.

actually she used the 7 X 57 mostly but maybe you wouldn't have known that.

quote:

Hey 303Guy, Any idea what kind of Bullet your Dad was using to get that much penetration from a 35Rem?

No, none at all. I did have a few cartridges that he gave me and if I recall, those were soft point round nose but that does not mean they were the ones he was using. It wouldn't surprise me if he used solids. I should remember to ask him.

I have walked among Cape buffalo in a game park. I would imagine the ones with headaches would have been removed. Still, they did make me nervous! They wouldn't let you walk among the Rhino. Those were not free to roam! One day the game keeper got himself between a cow and her calf - she gored him.

My dad told a story about a preacher guy who used a bicycle to get to the various churches he preached at who, one day rode down a dip and found himself in the middle of a herd of Cape buffalo. The 'funny' part of the story was that the preacher prayed that they would think he was one of them as he rode between them. Obviously, he lived to tell the tale.

quote:

... actually she used the 7 X 57 mostly ...

Was she left handed? I have a picture of her holding a left hand bolt rifle.
Someone in the O'Connor family used a 257. Jack talks of reloading some case over thirty times. Somewhere in that article it mentions that Mrs O'Connor used a 7x57 in Africa and there is a picture of her standing behind a Sable Antelope - not a small beast. (Speer Reloading Manual Number Ten).

If i had only one caliber, it would be a 6.5 rem mag. just personal pref.

one more point,, has anyone ever heard that saying that there are more deer killed in the U.S. with a 30-30. I bet there are the same number wounded and not recovered. again shot placement and knowing your own limitations.

Just because (speaking as a "eastern" hunter) I have spent $400 for a tag, took 2 weeks vacation, spent $1200 not including gas on a western big game hunt (you pick the species) does not mean I HAVE to pull the trigger to "get A buck or bull or ram or etc etc. if there is a oppertunity to shoot but I know in my own mind the shot has a low percentage of success I for one will not pull the trigger. I would like to think that I am a hunter not a killer. Just my 2 cents

Crazy Horse,
No way I am I saying deer are dangerous.

My 22-250 kills deer deader than heck, but the only time it crumples them is when I have stopping shot placement. By that I mean break down their skeletal /CNS system. The Barnes bullet construction allows me to not worry about about penetration, regardless of shot angle and bonhes in the way.

A 22-250 through the ribs and a 35 Whelen through the ribs has a markedly different effect on their reaction. That is why I understand where Hot Core is coming from. That is why I state bigger kills better.

I have seen enough deer killed, that the bigger cartridges tend to crumple them. IMO a stopping power type of cartridge for deer although they are not DG.

I have read about guys that have killed cape buffalo with 7x57's, 30-06's, 300 mags under varying circumstances. These are much smaller than classic/legal buffalo cartridges. They kill them, but..... If something goes wrong the stakes are much higher.

The regulationhs in Africa are set to a higher standard for DG, because it can kill you. They have set the limit at 9.3/375 levels for buffalo, not because that is the minimum that can kill them, but the minimum to sort out a mess. I am going strictly off of what I have read. I have no real experience with Buffalo. So I threw out a theory, not trying to state fact, just start a discussion.

Any person who thinks a 243 will not take a deer has not shot a deer with one. I admit I have'nt hunted much with mine this year but I never would hesitate to carry it. Yes with light calibers you need to know your limitations, but that is part of hunting not a lack of power. Yes bigger is better, I love my 2506,308,7mm mag,300 wby, but if you NEED more than a 6mm 100gr bullet to kill deer maybe consider practice shooting and studying deer anatomy.

quote:

The regulations in Africa are set to a higher standard for DG, because it can kill you.

Actually, it's because it can kill someone else! (An innocent party, that is. A wounded elephant that has survived, will attack a human without provocation. Wounded buffalo have been known to kill anyone who crosses their path – or try to. I don't know if they will do that after the wound has healed. Cape buffalo, as stated above, look at you as though you owe them money - especially when they have a bad headache. I'm not kidding about them having bad headaches).

quote:

Hey 303Guy, Any chance the Buffalo is like the ones in Australia and not Africa?

I have no idea what the Australian buffalo are like. No, these were African Cape buffalo. Not all of them are cantankerous. I read a report by a 'Big White Hunter' in Africa somewhere, going out to shoot a buffalo for the locals when the herd stampeded. He 'wisely' ran away from the stampede only to by crossed by the local 'young bucks' running into the stampede with their spears and they killed a few! He said he was somewhat 'humbled' by that experience. You can actually walk through a herd of wild Cape buffalo without harm. (Just don't look them in the eye). It's the loners with big horns you have to be wary of. They have left the herd because of their big headaches! (Or something). I have seen them from the safety of a car and they stomped the ground and shook their heads at us and snorted! I have the idea that Cape buffalo can be one of the most dangerous of the African big five. One game ranger or hunter made the comment that if a Cape buffalo charges you, you should shoot it in the heart and then in the head - so that if you miss the brain, the buffalo will not go off and kill someone else as well!

quote:

Originally posted by 700varmint: has anyone ever heard that saying that there are more deer killed in the U.S. with a 30-30.

When I was a new hunter (back about 1960) it was said that the .30-30 had killed more deer than all the rest of the calibers combined.....

Back in them days is wasn't just common to find a deer hunter with a M-94 Winchester.....it was uncommon to find one otherwise.....oh yea...some toted a M-99 Savage and some of them were also in .30-30 and once in a while he found a guy with a M-336 Marlin and again it was a .30-30.

There was a few folks using the "ungodly" powerful .30-06 and usually in the Remington pump rifle. But by in large the north woods where many deer were hunted was home to the leveraction and .30-30 so it was easy to believe the story.....and it just might have been true!!!!!

Since then things have changed a lot....."bucks only" laws added a lot of telescopes to rifles and the boltaction took over for various reasons. Today finding a .30-30 in the woods is quite uncommon where I hunt (this year in four states) and as a matter of fact I haven't seen one in the last ten years that I can remember.

I have no statistics to support this but I think you're likely correct about wounded deer and the .30-30....not because of it's power but because it really didn't provide a good bullet placement for a whole host of reasons.....and lack of good optical sights is high among them.

Today if someone said that more deer have been killed with the .30-30 than all other calibers combined.....well, lets just smile and keep hunting with our scope sighted bolt rifle in any of a dozen rimless cartridges.

quote:

actually she used the 7 X 57 mostly but maybe you wouldn't have known that.

I could have been mistaken, but it seems like I remember reading my Outdoor Life magazines back in the 1960's that she also used a 257 Roberts.

If I am wrong, then I apologise, does that make the 257 Roberts any less of an adequate deer cartridge?

I remember a guy who was brought out as a guest, with our hunting party each year in No Wisconsin...

He has a Marlin in 35 REM.. one night sitting in the cabin playing cards, as it was like 20 below outside, one of the guys asked how he liked that 35 Rem... his response was he didn't know about any other calibers.. he had only ever hunted with a 35 Rem...

When he was a boy, his dad had a couple of old Rem 14s in 35 Rem... as he got older, his dad would say he'd like to have one in a Marlin Lever action instead..

So he got to come home on leave at Thanksgiving time in 1952 from Korea.. where he had been wounded being in the Marines..For a present he bought his dad his long wanted 35 Remington in a Marlin lever action... they hunted together that year and both of them plus his brother all scored with 35 Rems...the two brothers using the old Pumps, and dad with his new lever action...

When Kenny got home in 1953 from Korea, his dad had a heart attack in Sept and died suddenly..

He only got to hunt with that Marlin 35 Rem for one season.. His brother decided Kenny should have it since he was the one whom had bought it...

Kenny said he didn't hunt for about 8 year after Korea, because of being in combat, but also he got out of the Marines, and went and got a Masters and later a PhD in education...

He was a superintendent and high school prinicipal in a little town in SW Wisconsin..

but he admitted, since that rifle had been his dad's.. he never saw a need to hunt with anything else...

that was back in the 1980s when I use to hunt with those guys...

but I have to admit, there was a lot of solemn guys around the fireplace for the next hour after that...

Kenny started laughing later saying, I should have told you guys I stole it from some old hooker, who got stole it from old drunk logger, If I would have known you guys were going to get all mushy like this on me...

quote:

I'm going to have to disagree with that. No doubt a Central Nervous System shot will drop them, even with smaller Cartridges. But the vast majority of Deer I've seen Killed have been with Shoulder-to-Shoulder or into the Chest shots.

Disagreeing is fine, but as you state in the above, a bullet placed in the CNS/Head/Spine is going to drop a deer in its tracks.

Anyone that has ever shot more than 1 or 2 deer, knows full well that heart/lung shot deer have the capabilty to go from 1 to 100 yard with such a shot.

As I stated elsewhere, one of the last bucks I shot was at about 40 yards off of the muzzle of my 375 H&H, and the bullet took out the whole top third of the heart, valves/arteries/veins, all of it, and that little sumbich covered 60 yards before his brain kicked in and told him he was dead.

In all of my hunting experience, and this goes into the discussion about people using what some consider inadequate calibers, a properly placed bullet, regardless of size, results in a dead deer.

A 50 grain bullet fired from a 22 Hornet, placed in the ear of a white tail at 75 yards is going to result in a DRT deer, as would the same placement with a 25-06 or 458 Win Mag.

Do you want to recommend the 224's, even though several thousand deer are killed just that way every year, I know I don't.

Simply because not all of us have the skill to place our shots that precisely, regardless of what we say on the internet.

Also, not all of us are hunting deer under a feeder, shooting from what is basically a shooting bench, at a 100 yard target.

Everyone else's mileage will vary, but from personal experience, I have had deer go down faster with a shot that catches the liver than I have heart/lung only shots.

quote:

... but from personal experience, I have had deer go down faster with a shot that catches the liver than I have heart/lung only shots.

I was about to ask about that. My late Uncle told me about it but I only experienced it recently. Feral goat that just fall over with a liver shot from my hornet while they run a ways when hit by a 303. Not all the DRT's from the hornet were liver shots, 'though (one was lung/foreleg). The hornet does do considerable damage and since a goat is no bigger than a large dog, a through and through shot is no big deal with a 55gr bullet. Having done post mortems on 308 and hornet shot animals, there is no difference in the appearance in the wounds but the entry holes in the skin are larger with 308 bullets. The main difference is that the exit hole in the ribcage is smaller than the entry hole with hornet shots while the 308 produces about the same size exit hole (if not bigger).

Heavier bullets for my 303-25 have been suggested. I measured the twist and it is a 1 in 10. Should that be expected to stabilise 120gr bullets? I would feel a lot more comfortable with 'enough bullet'. (Which is why I am not bothering with the 85gr bullets I already have). I have noticed that heavier and slower bullets produce a smaller but longer wound channel than lighter and faster bullets. On smaller animals the more explosive bullet is quite spectacular but ....



This animal was allegedly shot on the right shoulder. That's the entry wound! The animal then allegedly walked/stumbled toward the hunter who then killed it with a pistol - ( or something like that). There was an argument about it with folks saying it could not have been an entry wound but if one enhances the picture one can see the crater effect and that there is no hole all the way through. And I have seen this sort of effect before. It looks like an entry wound with no penetration.

Just from my experience, but with your 25, get some of the heavier bullets and spend some range time nd see how the gun likes them.

If you get groups that are acceptable for your type hunting, then try them on game.

As for the antelope picture, I saw a friend cut a doe white tail almost in half with a 180 gr. Winchester Black Talon factory load out of a 300 Win Mag at about 75 yards.

Some others have reported a similar experience, where an animal is shot fairly close to the muzzle, with a premium bullet that is at or near muzzle velocity when the contact is made, and have the bullets go to pieces on contact and create such wounds.

I know Deer have been killed with a 22 l.r. and probably some where someone has killed a Deer by hitting it in the head with a stick but I set my smallest caliber for Deer at .25 caliber rifle rounds i.e. 250 Savage(to include .243 and 6mm Rem just to name a few).

Steve E........

quote:

Yes with light calibers you need to know your limitations,

When I first started using a 22-250, I felt the exact same, but after seeing the Barnes bullet perform I do not feel limited. It performs as well as any other killing power class cartridge. Be it a 6mm or 257.

The amount of broken bones and damage that it causes when skeletal structure is encountered is impressive to say the least. I have yet to recover a bullet. I have found petals, when skeletal structure has been encountered. The rest of the bullet has always completely passed through. Not unlike lead bullets losing a percentage of their weight and passing completely through.

I do not pass on quartering to shots, in fact, I aim to take out the front shoulder.

I feel my succes can be atrtibuted to bullet design and high velocity. Secondary to shot placement of course.

Dead is dead, it's just how the animal reacts from impact to death.

quote:

Very few people that have spent time watching Deer attempt Head Shots. It is the sign of a novice and should be avoided

I agree 1000% percent, head shots should be avoided all the time.

quote:

Dead is dead, it's just how the animal reacts from impact to death.

This is my y thinking too. It just amazes me how far a mortally wounded animal can go. We forget, I think, just how tough these wild creatures really are. I have to walk up a very steep incline slowly - they run up it at full tilt! And they can do it all day!

quote:

Very few people that have spent time watching Deer attempt Head Shots. It is the sign of a novice and should be avoided

I am a novice and no ways in hell will I attempt a head shot. I am struggling to talk my buddies out of it. Likewise with too far shots that require guessing the bullet drop (or forgetting to compensate !!!) Just no-ways should a shot be fired 'just in case it might actually hit'!

I am going on a few days hunting trip shortly and do not have the time to set up heavier bullet loads for my 303-25. Deer is not my primary target but chances are I will be able to get one. I am loaded up with 100gr Sierra's, which so far have shown not to be explosive but then again I have not hit solid bone with them. Fallow deer are the more likely deer but there are Big Reds where I am going. I have no experience with neck shots so what would the recommended killing zones be? I should imagine that on Reds, full on shoulder shots should be avoided, or at least, possible bone hits should be avoided? The bush is rather dense and I really am a novice at tracking! If I have to pass the shot, that would be fine. (It would give me a good excuse to go back on another trip). I have been told that a base of neck shot works well for DRT's. Any advice would be appreciated.

I guess it depends on the deer species.

For example, we have Chinese Water Deer (8-12kg) & Reeves Muntjak (10-20kg)here in the UK & .224cal is more than sufficient.
If I'm stalking Roe or Fallow, then I'll use the .243.
For Sika, Reds or Sika/Red cross the .270 comes into play. I'd be totally confident using this caliber on Mule & Whitetail deer too - even cow Elk.
Bullet choice DOES make a difference too.

quote:

Originally posted by Oddbod:
I guess it depends on the deer species.

For example, we have Chinese Water Deer (8-12kg) & Reeves Muntjak (10-20kg)here in the UK & .224cal is more than sufficient.
If I'm stalking Roe or Fallow, then I'll use the .243.
For Sika, Reds or Sika/Red cross the .270 comes into play. I'd be totally confident using this caliber on Mule & Whitetail deer too - even cow Elk.
Bullet choice DOES make a difference too.

Oddbod,

Your post is probably the most practical, reasoned approach to this argument than the other 163 posts on this thread.

quote:

Your post is probably the most practical, reasoned approach to this argument than the other 163 posts on this thread.

Just trying to keep things in perspective - 243 on Roe and Fallow makes sense (except that it seems a little fast to me - I'm a novice remember). But isn't the 270 a little small for cow Elk? That is European Elk you are referring too? Aren't they the same as American Moose?

I do still feel a little under-gunned thinking of 100gr 257 bullets on a Red deer. (The novice thing). I shot one with a 180gr 303 Brit and it took quite a while to go down even though the damage was massive.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

Your post is probably the most practical, reasoned approach to this argument than the other 163 posts on this thread.

Just trying to keep things in perspective - 243 on Roe and Fallow makes sense (except that it seems a little fast to me - I'm a novice remember). But isn't the 270 a little small for cow Elk? That is European Elk you are referring too? Aren't they the same as American Moose?

I do still feel a little under-gunned thinking of 100gr 257 bullets on a Red deer. (The novice thing). I shot one with a 180gr 303 Brit and it took quite a while to go down even though the damage was massive.

303Guy, are you ? Are Euro elk and those rabbit sized Red Deer one in the same? What do you have in New Zealand?

quote:

303Guy, are you ?

Oh no! Our Red Deer are, I think, the European Red. Then we have Sika, which is the American Elk. My understanding is that the European Elk and the North American Moose are almost one and the same - that makes them quite a bit bigger, I think. Our Reds are quiet substantial unless what I shot was a Sika cross Red but nowhere near Moose size. But speaking of giant rabbit, I saw a picture of a hare which seemed astonishingly large! Maybe is was just the way the picture was taken deliberately to make it look big.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
No, not at all! Our Red deer are, I think, the Europen Red. Then we have Sika which is the American Elk. My understanding is that the the European Elk and the North American Moose are almost one and the same - that makes them quite a bit bigger, I think. Our Reds are quiet substantial unless what I whot was a Sika cross Red but nowhere near Moose size. But speaking of giant rabbit, I saw a picture of a hare which seemed astonishingly large! Maybe is was just the way the picture was taken.

303Guy, sounds like you live in a very interesting country.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
I saw a picture of a hare which seemed astonishingly large! Maybe is was just the way the picture was taken deliberately to make it look big.

Or maybe the photo was taken New Year's Eve!

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Our Red Deer are, I think, the European Red. Then we have Sika, which is the American Elk. My understanding is that the European Elk and the North American Moose are almost one and the same - that makes them quite a bit bigger, I think. Our Reds are quiet substantial unless what I shot was a Sika cross Red but nowhere near Moose size.

American elk Cervus canadensis are closely related to Red deer Cervus elaphus. Sika Cervus nippon are an eastern Asian species & all three are capable of cross breeding (here in the UK there are increasing concerns about Red/Sika crosses ousting the Reds).
European Elk & North American Moose are the same species Alces alces.
Caribou & Reindeer Rangifer tarandus are the same species.

The Red & Fallow deer present in NZ were introduced in the 19th century from Europe, Sika from Asia & more recently, Whitetails & Elk from the US.

I just got back from a Texas late season deer and hog hunt. It was a good time and we got some does and small to medium size hogs.

My buddy had reciently been given an AR15 in 223 by his son. He was pleased with the accuracy and was showing off targets with very small groups. After looking at the targets, and shooting the rifle and listening to him talk it up for several days, I admit that he almost had me convinced. Then he and I shared a stand one afternoon and he neck shot a big doe at about 200 yards. She dropped immediately, then flopped around for 15 minutes. The after about another fifteen minutes she started flopping again and raising her head, and actually pivoted around so she was facing the woods, but still laying on the ground. I tried talking him into putting another bullet in her head, but he just kept saying that she wouldn't be going anywhere. After about 45 minutes, just before dark we went to pick her up, and when we got close, she got up and staggered into the woods. I could hear her crashing the bush, as she ran and stumbled.

Anyway, we didn't recover that deer. We found a good size pool of blood where she fell so I'm sure this doe is buzzard, coyote, and worm food. He still believes the 223 is adequate, and says he just hit her wrong. I just figured there is no need to argue, if the evidence doesn't speak for itself. I felt like I was at the scene of a crime, and felt that angst feeling when you see something that shouldn't be, but there is nothing you can do about it.

Go figure.

I took my Ruger in 257 Roberts, and got one deer with it. The shot was well placed and the deer didn't go far. But I couldn't get the accuracy out of it that I expected, and never felt comfortable with the rifle. I mostly used my friend's 308. Anyway, I left the 257 with my friend for his hospitality and hopefully he will sort out the accuracy issues with the rifle, and use it as his deer rifle in the future instead of the 223.

I think I'm going to set my minimum on the 6.5x55 for deer and hogs for the forseeable future. Might as well since I've got two rifles in that chamber, and no longer have a 257 R. I'm Ok with that. I liked it, but I don't think I'll miss it. It's fun trying new stuff, and learning from the experience of others as well as my own experience.

KB

22 Hornet, with a load of 4 grains of Blue Dot and a 30 grain Berger HP....

There ya go H/C....Got your soap box ready?