quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
22 Hornet, with a load of 4 grains of Blue Dot and a 30 grain Berger HP....?

The sad part is I think you believe it. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
22 Hornet, with a load of 4 grains of Blue Dot and a 30 grain Berger HP....?

The sad part is I think you believe it. roger

You bet I do Roger!
understanding what I have to work with and understanding where the shot must be placed and within what distance that combo would be effective...

you bet I do...

plenty of deer are poached annually with a 22 LR...and are done so with shot placement...

the difference with the load stated above.. it would actually be legal here in Oregon, where the 22 LR isn't...

but that doesn't effect the end results......

but what I hunt a deer with, is really no one else's business...

the only deer I have lost (with deep regret) was one that was hit with a 300 Win Mag with a Factory 200 Grain Bullet... does that make the round and load inadequate?

and at the time judging for the blood in a 2 ft circle of where he fell, and the deer hair all over the place, the shot was good and it was only at 100 yds..

I am not going to be out hunting with a 22 Hornet and that load... but if that is all I had, and I felt the need to take one of the ones that run thru my yard.. yeah I'd use it...

the largest blacktail I have taken in Oregon was taken with a load that light, on the last day of the season, after 5PM when my rifles were put away.. I took it on my property..

Said "Hey" and then when the deer looked right at me, I put a 40 grain bullet with an MV of 2200 fps, right between the eyes.. and dropped it like a brick...distance was 50 t0 60 yds...

I have no need to apologize to anyone about it either.. nor do I need anyone's approval...

I used the tools immediately at hand, saw the distance was within the limits available to me, and knew where the best place was to place the shot, to take a fast clean kill...

quote:

... then when the deer looked right at me, I put a 40 grain bullet with an MV of 2200 fps, right between the eyes.. and dropped it like a brick...distance was 50 t0 60 yds...

That is not an insignificant hit!

seafire2, I am quite convinced that you are a responsible and sensible person! What troubles me greatly are people who go out with 'smaller' calibers and say simply - "Head shots!" Next is military ammo in 223 and again it's - "Head shots!" Then I hear of folks who are goint to use FMJ's so as not to damage any meat! (I am still to learn how someone with such minimal hunting skills as to be using FMJ's on game, learned to track such game with no meat damage!) I have a 'little' hunting experience and I can assure you all that I cannot even find the first drop of blood let alone tell the wounded animals tracks from all the other tracks of animals just milling around! That's if I find any tracks at all! Not that I routinely lose my game. I actually became pretty damn good at finding my quarry but that was from just plain searching untill I did! (And being able to figure out where it would have gone - and just plain refusing to give up!) Anyway, that's my gripe!

When I was up North - - I dont' want to name the town so I'll just say above the arctic circle, I became friends with a gun dealer there. I was looking over his inventory, and noticed several cheap 17 calibers. I can't remember specifically what they were, but the rimfire versions. I asked if they were popular for snowshoe rabbits, and grouse. He said thay were popular for caribou, much to my surprise.

Apparantly the native subsistance hunts are from boat, and they wait until the animals are in the river, then drive up close, and pick out the yearlings, and shoot them in the head. Some of the young men chase the bou with their snow machines, geting close and slowing them down with shots from the .17, then finishing them off. They swear the .17 is adequate. Whose going to argue with them, especially considering what good would it do? Certainly it would ba a waste of time, and asking for frustration. That's why I didn't argue with my friend with the AR15, even after his doe got up and stumbled off.

So, IMO this discussion has played out, just as it began.

I would be interested however, in knowing if anyone -- anyone -- any one person -- has changed his mind about any aspect of this discussion after reading the comments.

Really. I'll be the first to admit that I have. I started by thinking the 257 Rob was minimum. Now I think the 6.5mm is minimum. But that was mostly as a result of going hunting with the Bob, not as a result of anything anyone said.

KB

Kabluewy

I have been following this thread with the aim of gaining information for my own use. I would attempt a bigger deer with my 25 if I knew I had an adequate bullet and I was able to place my shot appropriately. But have I 'changed my mind'? No, but I do think I have a better understanding of what smaller calibers cannot do! (Since I am not prepared to experiment on live animals!)

303 guy,
My comments weren't aimed at you specifically. While you were writing, I was writing too. Your post just hit first.

Actually, I was sort of trying to not aim my comments toward anyone in particular, so as to not get into a personal argument, but to reflect a little, for whatever good it will do.

Perhaps we are all entitled to our opinion, but man when my opinion is that someone is just flat out wrong it's awful tempting to just say so, and let the discussion go wherever it goes. However I have noticed that doesn't work too well, so I just choose to avoid it, and not waste my time.

KB

Yup! That was understood! I thought your question was quite appropriate.

quote:

I knew I had an adequate bullet and I was able to place my shot appropr

for both Kablewy and 303 Guy;

303 Summed it up right here...it isn't necessarily the size of your bore, or the weight of your bullet... it is being able to size up what you have in your hands, knowing its capabilities, knowing where a bullet must be placed within the animal you are after at the time and knowing if it will do the job or not...

many Alaskans and New Zealanders ( and Ozzies also) don't have the luxuries of some of these other 'hunters' from places like California, or Texas etc.. that can afford to be "overgunned" to the obscene when they go hunting, and then look down on those with lesser stages of "overgunned"... or even worse, folks that are going hunting without being "overgunned" at all...

they mysteriously think the size of their barrels bore, the velocity and weight of their bullet... the bigger it is, the better hunter they automatically are...

go back and read the initial posting on this thread.. it was not posted out of curiosity.. it was posted to start arguments...

note how from an older thread, that I in particular was singled out, quoted and then mocked.. because what I felt was "adequate" was smaller than what the creator of the thread thought was 'adequate'...

well if people know how to kill a deer with a certain caliber and bullet weight and a certain muzzle velocity, then evidently it is 'adequate' if it provides results...

adequate really equates to whose hands the rifle, caliber and load are lying in.. what might be 'adequate' for one guy might not be 'adequate' for the next guy.. because he has less experience in applying it...

so does this preclude the guy who CAN apply it of being wrong? of course not...

folks are ignoring the fact that the key word in this thread was SMALLEST... the thread author wasn't try to instill debate, he was using this thread as a platform to start arguments...

but my answer is not agreed with by others, so they think that I am wrong... well I have applied my answer and have brought down several deer with something even smaller... not by choice.. it was what was immediately available at the time the opportunity presented itself.. I know I could accomplish my aim, so I didn't feel uncomfortable taking advantage of it...

Too many of these guys need to learn, BiGGER doesn't mean better...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:


well I have applied my answer and have brought down several deer with something even smaller... not by choice.. it was what was immediately available at the time the opportunity presented itself....

Too many of these guys need to learn, BiGGER doesn't mean better...

I most certainly disagree. It is definately a choice - choices in fact. The choice to carry the rifle of small caliber in the first place, knowing in advance you will take the shot of opportunity, and secondly taking the shot. No one forced you to choose a little caliber when you could choose a bigger one. You are rationalizing and misleading only yourself in saying "not by choice". And that's just the tip of the berg, but it's your choice, and I'm happy for you that you have the opportunities of choice.

Given that we have a choice, I choose a bigger caliber as my minimum deer caliber. A friend has been trying to talk me into getting a 223 or something similar, but I keep thinking to my self - what use is it - especially since I wouldn't choose to take it deer hunting. And if I did haul it around say as a truck gun, then I would inevitably be faced with a choice to use it when an opportunity presented itself, and I know my limitations, and I've seen how it performs for others. I would rather not put myself in that situation, and simply choose to carry an adequate rifle for the job. My CZ 527 in 7.62x39 worked very well for shooting grouse and rabbits in the head, and was fun too. The results were not explosive since I wasn't using varmit bullets. I would choose it for deer over a 223 as well.

My limitations seem to be changing as I get older. It's apparant to me that I need to get out and shoot more often. I think I'll take my 375 H&H and shoot it a lot this summer. It always seems like afterwards, when I shoot my 7x57 for example, the minimal recoil is soooo sweet.

There is a phenomenon known as the Los Vegas syndrome, where one only remembers and counts the successful bets. I think you guys using the little calibers are suffering from this syndrome, and you are simply not telling the whole story about your losses. Could be that it's not intentional - I dunno for sure. In a way it reflects what I see in the field. We just don't talk much about the ones that fed the buzzards.

Heck, those guys up North that I mentioned previously will wound or lose several bou, seals, or whatever for every one they actually butcher. It doesn't seem matter at all to them. I was amazed because it was obvious based on how many bloated and rotting seals, with a little hole in their head or nose or other parts of their face blown off, washed up on the local beach each day, yet no one but me seemed to notice. Must be a cultural thing.

KB

quote:

... it was obvious based on how many bloated and rotting seals, with a little hole in their head or nose or other parts of their face blown off, washed up on the local beach each day, ...

I am not a head shot person and this is precisely why!

Actually, I do agree with seafire2. In my hands a 22 hornet (even my supercharged one) is not adequate for deer! I did once test it on a dead deer and once on a dying deer. The dead deer indicated it might reach the brain. The dying deer proved it a totally inadequate cartridge for me. I missed the brain from up real close! A second shot between the eyes did the job. Undoubtedly, the bullet has the energy and penetration to kill a deer with a heart shot but I know from my experience that I cannot get a heart shot! I need something for a solid shoulder shot. My 303Brit with 180gr bullets and muzzle velocity of 2400fps is adequate for me. My 303-25 is way more than enough for feral goat. But not for red deer. The folks I am talking about who use 223's with FMJ's can't even hit the centre of their test targets from a rest. How in hell are they going to hit a deer in the brain! And how in hell is someone who has shot so few deer (none) going to track one with a none-meat damaging FMJ! The whole idea of using the FMJ is to minimise damage! I hope they are not planning on using a 223 FMJ! (I will be trying to talk them out of it!)

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I would be interested however, in knowing if anyone -- anyone -- any one person -- has changed his mind about any aspect of this discussion after reading the comments. KB

Perhaps we are all entitled to our opinion, but man when my opinion is that someone is just flat out wrong it's awful tempting to just say so, and let the discussion go wherever it goes. However I have noticed that doesn't work too well, so I just choose to avoid it, and not waste my time.


WOW! When the obvious is put in front of you sometimes it rolls like thunder.

One thing that hasn't been much discussed is the size of different deer. How much of a factor does this play?
For example a guy shooting black tail coastal deer or the Sitka variaty has an OPINION formed by these deminutive deer and the guy who normally shoots mule deer up to 300 pounds might have a different environmentally aquired OPINION.

So, does animal size count for much when discussing minimum ,adequate deer cartridges?
roger

I don't know what that load runs in fps so I really can't say.
I do know this though, give me a 22WMR and I can take any deer or boar or even elk alive and would not waste many bullets doing so.
Hell I sneak up on, or ambush these same animals on a regular basis and stick sharp little sticks through them, you would not want to bet against me piling up some game with a ridiculous little 22 mag.
There are people on this forum that can actually hunt, and damn well can shoot.
It is not hard to figure out who is who on here, and for my money Seafire can most likely do exactly as he says.

It's never a good idea to judge the rest of the world from the level of your own inadequecy.

Hi there. I have been looking at this site for some time but this will be my first post. From New Zealand and have been hunting for 40 years. Just typing that makes me feel old.
The thread on what consitutes a deer rifle and the smallest adequate calibre amuses me especially with regard to the 22 Hornet. I have used one for deer and I have a old friend over here who thought that he was way overgunned when he got his 243. He actually wanted a 222 but they had sold out. Dan took me into his shed one day and I had a look around at some of the heads he had kept and I would suggest that 90% of people would be stunned at the sheer size of them, all shot with the 22 Hornet, one that was built up from a 303. This was all bush hunting in the North Island and Dan was a very good hunter. Makes you think a bit though

Sometimes there is a moral dilemma of what you can do, and what you shouldn't do.

I could kill deer with a “Red Rider” BB gun, but I choice not to do that. It’s limits me to just a few feet from my target but i could do it.

Not much is more moral than a 22 cal bullet through the brain at 50 yards. And go stuff all of that BS about 'head shots' there is a vast difference between someone who can actually shoot popping something behind the ear, or between the eyes with a small caliber, and some yahoo shooting at a deers head from 150 yards off hand with a 270.


It is called 'hunting' not shooting, it would do your own morals some good to try it.

[edit] And no Mick you could not kill deer with a Red Rider BB gun, so stop being silly..
I know for a fact you can't, hell you can't even kill a cat with one,, and I have tried..

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
I don't know what that load runs in fps so I really can't say.
I do know this though, give me a 22WMR and I can take any deer or boar or even elk alive and would not waste many bullets doing so.
Hell I sneak up on, or ambush these same animals on a regular basis and stick sharp little sticks through them, you would not want to bet against me piling up some game with a ridiculous little 22 mag.
There are people on this forum that can actually hunt, and damn well can shoot.
It is not hard to figure out who is who on here, and for my money Seafire can most likely do exactly as he says.

It's never a good idea to judge the rest of the world from the level of your own inadequecy.

It's good to read the point of view of a bowhunter. Gives perspective sometimes overlooked. Close range certainly helps with confidence. Your view reassures me that using my 7.62x39 is reasonable. If you are comfortable with a 22 mag., I see no reason I shouldn't become proficient and comfortable with the 7.62x39. It has become my current favorite rifle for just enjoying shooting - often, and so far I've taken three Texas deer with it, two headshot and one neck shot, one Texas hog neck shot, plus a bunch of headshot Alaska snowshoe rabbits, and some headshot spruce hens. Lost one hog because I shot too far, forgot to account for bullet drop and hit too low. Accuracy is a non-issue with this rifle within 100-125 yds. With this rifle I can easily shoot several brands of factory loads and some handloads in less than an inch at 100 yds.

I haven't shot a 22 mag in a long time, but to me this 7.62x39 feels about like I remember a 22 mag shot. It seems very mild compared to the deer rifles I'm used to.

So, I wasn't comfortable with the pea-shooter as I call it, until I read your post which gave me perspective. But at the same time, I still keenly remember that nice buck back on the farm in Georgia wounded in the shoulder with that damn 22 hornet.

KB

Well Mick I would like to think so, time will tell I would imagine.

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:


[edit] And no Mick you could not kill deer with a Red Rider BB gun, so stop being silly..
I know for a fact you can't, hell you can't even kill a cat with one,, and I have tried..

Interestingly, I saw TV host Steve Scott kill a decent size hog on Versus TV with a .17" cal Gamo Wisper air rifle. One shot just behind the ear = dead as a doornail hog. Dropped straight and dead.

He snuck up close, maybe ten yards. Maybe less, its hard to gauge range on TV.

JPK

Kabluewy, I havent actually hunted with that caliber, but I have shot one a fair bit, enough to have a good deal of respect for it.
It is darn sure no peashooter I can say that for sure.
As for the deer shot in the shoulder, yep we all have to do that sort of thing sometime in our lives,, if not that then some other rookie mistake that we always look back on and regret.

I get a real charge out of some of these fellas and their rightious attitudes, computer snipers the lot of em.
Any of them that have not lost an animal due to a dumb mistake sometime in their past most likely have not hunted enough.
The hornet in the shoulder,oops darn bad call as you now know.
I think that you are well armed with your 'peashooter'.
Get close, have patience, put one where it matters and the rest of these ladies can go on with their quilting.

I just wonder why everyone is obsessed with the smallest caliber they can find for deer sized animals? I find this very interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
[edit] And no Mick you could not kill deer with a Red Rider BB gun, so stop being silly..
I know for a fact you can't, hell you can't even kill a cat with one,, and I have tried..

Don’t bet on what a Red Rider can or can’t kill.You need to remember it’s all about shot placement and distance.

Are you just being a dick Mick? or do you have something that you are trying to say?

No one is obsessed with anything as far as I can see, a question was asked is all.
The rifle I grab going out the door to go deer hunting is either a 30-06, or a 25-06.

There was some doubt expressed as to if a person could or would attempt to kill deer with a small 22 caliber as if it were insane to even try.
Well it isn't insane at all, and can be done with a great degree of effectiveness if a person takes into consideration the limitations.

I have done just that more than once, and if you could have noticed anything morally wrong with one shot, dead animals, your looking way too hard in my opinion.

For me the facination with the mild cartridges goes back to when I first started deer hunting. I had a Rem 788 in 30-30 at the time, and really enjoyed it. Unfortunately I sold it, and have missed it ever since. Once I passed up a good deal on a 30-30 Win 54, didn't know what I as looking at, and regret missing that one too. So lately, I've been studying on more modern cartridges and rifles which could be a close match to my old 30-30 bolt gun.

In doing this analysis, one quickly realizes it's sensible to look at pointed bullets, with good ballistics, and rimless brass, in a compact rifle. Measuring ft lbs of energy at the muzzel isn't enough, but it's a starting place, using the 30-30 as the standard for comparison. The 7.62x39 is close but doesn't measure up. The cartridge that I'm looking at which on paper does measure up - at the muzzel, and exceeds at 100 yards and beyond is the 6.5 Grendel. I won't get into the specs because most of you if not all are familiar with it. I dunno, but I'm planning on trying one out. Should be fun whatever the results are. It's got to be at least as effective as the 7.62x39, with better penetration and stability.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
Are you just being a dick Mick? or do you have something that you are trying to say?

No one is obsessed with anything as far as I can see, a question was asked is all.
The rifle I grab going out the door to go deer hunting is either a 30-06, or a 25-06.

There was some doubt expressed as to if a person could or would attempt to kill deer with a small 22 caliber as if it were insane to even try.
Well it isn't insane at all, and can be done with a great degree of effectiveness if a person takes into consideration the limitations.

I have done just that more than once, and if you could have noticed anything morally wrong with one shot, dead animals, your looking way too hard in my opinion.

It’s not insane,,,, Bucko,,,, you guys have no problems with hunting “Deer” with 223s and that's fine. Just bring a real gun when you come to Colorado to hunt deer.

Well Mick just so you don't worry your pretty little head anymore over it all I probably would bring a real gun, I have many.

Bucko, I’ll take your rhetoric into concentration.

“When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.”

Your daddy was a wise man. Why are you fighting over such a small matter?

Maybe you have many guns, maybe you don’t. I don’t count guns as a measure of a mans value.

quote:

No one forced you to choose a little caliber when you could choose a bigger one. You are rationalizing and misleading only yourself in saying "not by choice".

you missed my point, or did not read it all the way and just scanned it..

if I had a tag for a deer but was out with something smaller hunting squirrels at the time.. and an unexpected buck presented itself, then I would take the shot if what I had would do the job.. knowing where I had to put the bullet and me and the rifle had the capability of doing so...

The one deer I remember losing was a huge MN whitetail the last day of the season right as the sun was going down.. It was hit with a 300 Win Mag, at 100 yds, and a 200 grain Sierra Factory load by Federal... the deer went down on its nose.. got off and headed straight for the swamp it had been heading for... and I had shot it right on the rim of that swamp...

there was a blood and hair 'circle' where he was hit and landed in the snow, that was 24 inches plus in diameter..... the shot was good.. but at that distance the bullet passed right thru before it had a chance to open up...

does that mean a 300 Win Mag is a bad choice?

yeah it means a 300 Win Mag is a bad choice on a deer at 100 yds, with a bullet that heavy and that hard.. which pass thru the animal before it had a chance to open up....

a deer dies when a bullet is put in the place where it can do the most damage at a distance that it is allowed to adequately perform...

this thread asked no questions about yardage in which calibers are to be applied.. so since 90% of most deer are taken within a 100 yds...

I stand by what I think are the Smallest, as asked in the thread.. and my 'opinion' was highlighted with an air of ridicule when the started the thread...

his motivation for doing so is a mystery to me...

but I maintain that if what is the smallest deer caliber.. well a 22 Hornet is legal in my state.. and I stand by this..

is it my first choice? no...

but have I done it when the opportunity presented itself and something this small in power and size is all I had available? the answer is yes, and it has happened more than once...

and if someone doesn't agree with it... well look at the mirror effect.. I disagree with your opinion... I have done this at least 3 times here in Oregon, to include my biggest blacktail...well over 200lbs...

so I have some experience on it working to use as a point of reference...

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
22 Hornet, with a load of 4 grains of Blue Dot and a 30 grain Berger HP....

Is there anyone out there who would intentionally Hunt Deer with this Load?

yeah, I would.... if that is all I had...

and where I hunt deer locally now... 75 yds and under is a normal shot and 125 yds is an extremely long shot...

could I place the bullet where it needed to go to do the job? I wouldn't pull the trigger if I thought I couldn't...

As Roger Said above, you left out deer size also... would I use this to hunt deer in Northern Minnesota and Northern Wisconsin where I use to hunt? NO...

Is it adequate for blacktails here in Oregon? Yeah I think so, and I have taken 3 to prove it in the last 13 years...

besides YOU brought it up that was my opinion in your beginning post, almost as a mocking of an opinion given a while ago...

what was your motivation for that?

but I went with it, because you asked what was adequate.. and I have a track record of 3 times I made it work, and zero times that I made it fail...

so evidently I understand what I was doing at those times...

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I just wonder why everyone is obsessed with the smallest caliber they can find for deer sized animals? I find this very interesting.

excellent point Mick...

I don't choose to hunt with the smallest caliber I can find, or the lightest load...

but I do tailor loads to distance I am going to be hunting...

2007 I took a 175 lb blacktail at 100 yrd, with a heart shot, and was using a 260 Rem, with a 100 grain ballistic tip....

2008 I took a 210 lb blacktail, shot at 40 yds, right thru the heart again, this time with a 7 x 57 in a Win Featherweight.. the load was 28 grains of SR 4759 with a 110 grain TNT HP from Sierra..

2008's animal were at a good trot, when shot...

2007's was at a dead run....


but off season practice shows was rounds are capable of and what they are not capable of.....

I probably shoot 5 to 6000 rounds a year, all out of bolt actions.. except for rim fires they are hand loaded...

I spend time at the range, I spend time shooting thousands of little sage rats at distances from 50 to 250 yds.. occasionally I get a trip or two to Montana to prairie dog shoot... I also spend a lot of time out in the woods, shooting shots into trees of various diameters, to see what kind of penetration loads and bullet types will give me...

like the deer I took this past year...

is a high velocity 110 grain TNT a good choice for deer? NOPE.. the bullet is too fragile...

is the same bullet adequate for deer when the MV is 2400 fps or less? and the distance is 100 to 150 yds? you bet your fanny it is...because at that MV it will penetrate well, while still offering good peripheral damage along the bullets path... at that MV it will also penetrate about 8 to 10 inches of pine, birch, manzanita or even oak....with no problem...at 50 to 100 yds...

will it work on a buck then? I'd say so.. even a big buck at the range most are usually taken..

but the original question wasn't what is the smallest caliber you'd hunt deer with... the question was what is the smallest deer caliber that is adequate.. which I interpret as being able to kill one... and I have reflected my opinion, presented for me by the author.. but I didn't back away from it as I have adequately killed 3 deer with that combo... two were shot between the eyes, and one was shot just below the jaw.. all three dropped on the spot...

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
For me the facination with the mild cartridges goes back to when I first started deer hunting. I had a Rem 788 in 30-30 at the time, and really enjoyed it. Unfortunately I sold it, and have missed it ever since. Once I passed up a good deal on a 30-30 Win 54, didn't know what I as looking at, and regret missing that one too. So lately, I've been studying on more modern cartridges and rifles which could be a close match to my old 30-30 bolt gun.

In doing this analysis, one quickly realizes it's sensible to look at pointed bullets, with good ballistics, and rimless brass, in a compact rifle. Measuring ft lbs of energy at the muzzel isn't enough, but it's a starting place, using the 30-30 as the standard for comparison. The 7.62x39 is close but doesn't measure up. The cartridge that I'm looking at which on paper does measure up - at the muzzel, and exceeds at 100 yards and beyond is the 6.5 Grendel. I won't get into the specs because most of you if not all are familiar with it. I dunno, but I'm planning on trying one out. Should be fun whatever the results are. It's got to be at least as effective as the 7.62x39, with better penetration and stability.

KB

Seafire Jr. hunted deer with a 243 loaded to 2500 fps with a 100 grain bullet last season...

this year for his birthday he wanted a 30/06.. so I gave him my Browning A Bolt, which he liked so much...

no target of opportunity presented itself to the poor kid again this season...

the load he was shooting however was a 125 grain Ballistic Tip, behind 30 grains of SR 4759...around 2500 fps...

that would have duplicated your old beloved 30/30 load in your 788....

and a Win 54 in 30/30? that is pretty high on the list of my' Wanna find and get' list.... I'd love to get one of those...

a Model 30S Rem in 25 Rem, 30 Rem, 32 Rem and 35 Rem.. all of those are on my list of desired rifles also...

there was a time in this country, that a 25/20 lever action was all a lot of people could afford to hunt deer with and they relied on them for meat no less....its 86 grain lead bullet at 1300 fps MV isn't a lot of horse power.. they brought home a lot of venison here in Oregon according to a lot of the old times...

I remember meeting one old guy who told me he used one for 10 seasons, until at aged 30 he had saved enough money to get a 30/30... then he had something he could take elk hunting and getthem at 'long range'.... and how he wished he could have gotten a 30/40 Krag like his Uncle had!

Seafire,,, it’s hard to argue with a guy that has such a beautiful picture of a Spitfire in his signature.

Thanks Mic....

Kinda fond of them.. like a lot of WW 2 A/C...

if you liked that photo, you'll love this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDDDKnNhuE

watch carefully over the announcers left shoulder..
God is this cool!

I can’t believe this thread hit 6 pages, I thought it died over a month ago.

Seafire, thanks for the video link, that was funny and amazing at the same time. My wife enjoyed it too.

Actually Mick I am not fighting with you over anything, you are the one who took issue with what I had to say.
It makes me not a bit of difference what people like yourself and Hotcore approve nor disapprove of.
It is obvious what HC is, and what he is about.
Your proving to be of the same stripe.

quote:

seafire's pitiful rants

another insightful observation brought to you by your local AR Expert: HOT CORE!

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
Actually Mick I am not fighting with you over anything, you are the one who took issue with what I had to say.
It makes me not a bit of difference what people like yourself and Hotcore approve nor disapprove of.
It is obvious what HC is, and what he is about.
Your proving to be of the same stripe.

Bucko,

The small caliber crowd is going to do what they want to do. I’m resigned to that fact. They may find the 223 Remington adequate and “sporting” for deer, I don’t. Just because someone has successfully taken deer with the 223, doesn’t make it a good deer round. Just because some people think the 223 is the greatest deer round to come down the pike since the 22 Hornet doesn’t mean that I have to sit here quietly and except it as fact.

I will concede that deer in America come in a variety of sizes and weights. In some parts of the US and under some conditions the 223 is about all you need. That still doesn’t make the 223 a good “deer round”. It’s not the caliber, I love my 22s (22 LR, 22 Hornet, 223, 22-250, and Swift) they’re fun to shoot, it’s bullet weight and bullet construction that handicaps them. Although the Barnes TSX is a good step in the right direction along with the Nosler bullets, they’re still on the light side.

There is one critter besides prairie dogs and coyotes that I religiously hunt every year, and that’s antelope. Over the years I’ve seen some less than remarkable marksmanship with everything from “classic deer rifles” to “elephant guns”, with bullet weights upwards of 500 grains. Every year I have to put down 1 or 2 animals with mercy shots. I can only imagine how many I’d have to put down if John Dow public was allowed to use his AR or varmint rifle.

Hot Core is his own man. If we happen to agree on this subject, so be it, I don’t mind sharing the same stripe.

Bucko, You have your opinion, I have mine. I have no illusions about changing your mind nor you changing mine. I guess we can agree to disagree on this one.

Mick whoa a minute,, for starters here I never , ever , ever , said that a 22 caliber anything was a 'good' deer caliber.
What I said was that in the right hands they are deadly.
Would I grab a 22 hornet, or even a 22-250 even with barnes bullets to go deer hunting with? shoot no..
Most all of my deer have fallen to a 7mag, 30-06, 270 or a 25-06.
A few to a 300 WM and while I have not taken anywith my 338 yet I very well might just because.
But I have also killed deer, elk, pigs, goats, red stag, kangaroo, and animals that I can't even remember right now, and have done it with everything from a knife to an arrow, to a club to a 375 H&H.
And yes a lot of animals have fallen in front of a 22 caliber of some sort in my hands.
Is that because it is my caliber of choice? no it sure is not, in fact even my competitive coyote calling rifle is a 25-06.
It is because it is what was handy at the time, and since I have hunted since I can remember from Canada to Hawaii to Australia and most places in between I have had a lot of opportunity to use different calibers.
Often it what was handed to me.
I will tell you frankly I never complained once about the caliber of the rifle that was offered, all that I have always insisted upon was being able to verify if it is shooting on.

From that point on it is up to me to use the tool that I have in my hand to effectively and humanely take whatever I was after.
For instance the two stags in Australia, I was handed a 222 with 50 grain bullets.
The clip had been lost and I had to shoot it single shot.
But here is the kicker,, it was a remington 788 with a 3x9 leupold on it.
So what do you think happened? two shots, two bullets through the heart and two very humanely and effectively taken stags.
That is what happened.

So again frankly I could give the smallest piece of crap what you approve or don't approve of.
I honestly think that a man is a fool if he goes "stunt" hunting with a 22 caliber when he has a perfectly good rifle of more suitable caliber available.
But to even try to imply that a person such as myself, who can and does routinely stalk game animals close enough to stick a wooden arrow through, shooting instinctive longbow, cannot utilize a small caliber rifle effectively and humanely is silly.

Personally I shoot really well, damn sure well enough to shoot an elk in the eye at fifty yards with a 22 mag.
And that will damn sure drop him like a sack of spuds.
And just for the record, I also can damn sure get within fifty yards.

Does not mean a damn thing really, except that it can damn sure be done and done well.

And Hot Core,, just for the record I think that you are pathetic for ever bringing this issue up.
You did it for no other reason than to try and attack in a behind the back chickenshit way a man that is better than you.
Seafire has said he does not understand why you brought this up this way, I do.
You are a jealous hearted dink, plain and simple.
So flame away, I can't stand your ass anyhow.

Thanks for the reply Bucko, I must admit, you do have a way with words. You used more swear words in one reply than I used all last year.

I do like the fact that you’re a primitive archer though. It shows me that you can’t be all that bad.

Well damn Mick, sorry to have offended your delicate self.
And HC all that I can say is that it must really suck to be you.

And Seafire,, anytime you want to take a couple 22 cals and go bear huntin I'm game,,, we'll just leave the girls at home.