Seems like a lot of folks are convinced that using very small calibers is "all the rage", to steal a quote, and a good thing to use. Seafire posted a good while back that he believes it is OK to use a Down-Loaded 22Hornet on Deer.

Question:
When do you think the Caliber becomes Inadequate enough that it should not be used?

Choices:
Bigger
270cal
6.5mmcal
6mm/243calcal
22cal
20cal
17cal
14cal
Smaller

 

I protest 25 Cal. ( my vote)isn't in there. roger

This is sort of a tricky question. Southern whitetail and northern whitetails are different animals IMO. With mature bucks around me averaging probably around 150-160 pounds, the whitetails of the northern U.S. and Canada are giants in comparison. I'd have no issue with anything from a .223 up loaded with a 53gr. TSX and up on our southern whitetails. Go north a bit where average mature deer are in the 200 and up lb. range, and I think a .243 may be the minimum for me. Of course, regardless of caliber, picking your shot and placing it properly is critical regardless of caliber. You hit a southern bad with a 45/70 or 458 Lott and you'll have a tracking job to do. Hit him properly at reasonable range with a .223 and you have a bang flop.

David

Which deer, how far, and under what conditions?

Hunting from a stand where the deer will be motionless and 30 yards away, any .22 centerfire is as effective as you could ask.

If you're talking about prairie bucks of 200 pounds at 300 yards across a wide-open field, then a .243 is marginal, .25-06 or better is adequate, but a .45-70 is not.

Hot Core,
I don't know if it is "all the rage", as I have a friend that has used a 22-250 and factory 55gr ammunition since the late 70's on deer and antelope.

He just recently bought a 30-06 because he is applying for some limited entry elk tags.

I used it because of the internet experts claiming they were too small. This is after I have watched my friend use it very effectively for many years. After field trialing it myself, I came to the conclusion that it works.

Soot what you like like what you shoot but hit what you are shooting at!!

Shot placement relegates all other discussions to secondary importance.

So I voted for under 22, as that is the smallest caliber I have actual experience with. Not theory of reading this and that article, and hearing fom a sister's brother's cousin.

Backwards question. The question is the projectile. If the bullet is up to it, about anything works. Obviously a .22 caliber hold thru the vitals won't end life as quickly as a 1/2 incher without high velocity... The law against the ".22's" was passed because they only came with explosive varmint bullets. Law said .224 so there was a small flood of .228's. Mr. Ackley swaged a belt on the '06 case and loaded a solid copper .228 bullet at high velocity, small hole swaged into the tip and a tiny piece of lead inserted to encourage expansion... Said it was great for the tiny deer on Santa Catalina Island. As with cars/drivers, the operator is the problem/solution; "the nut behind the wheel". HAPPY HOLIDAYS.

quote:

What is the smallest Deer Caliber you think is Adequate?

and then.....

quote:

When do you think the Caliber becomes Inadequate enough that it should not be used?

I think Hot Core has been eating too many donuts with Larry!

Well it looks like a just kicked a hornets nest. I dont want to reverse myself but IMO a expierenced hunter with the right bullet and good shot placement a high velocity 22 cal is fine and I will do further testing on this.

As for the "rage" maybe im a little behind the 22TTH times. As well with the 22-6mm or 22TTH the barrel twist rates are fast with 1:7 or 1:8 and shooting heavier 22 cal bullets still at high speed but if memory serves correct right around 3600fps in the TTH is a good speed with say a 68-75gr bullet.

MY Browning micro hunter with a 1:14 twist will not stabilize these heavier bullets and case capacity on the 22-250 case -vs- 22TTH case is different so I did the next best thing and thinking of the formula for kinetic energy which is: mass multiplied by velocity squared = K.E. this formula tells us that velocity is key to kinetic energy and sustained traumatic effect from a projectile wound.

With the formula for K.E. in mind a faster bullet can unleash more K.E. than a slow more massive (weight) bullet to a point but when ranges get farther that I would want to shoot anyway the lighter bullet will shed velocity and K.E. faster. I decided to go with a lighter premium bullet that shoots exceptionaly well and since I dont have a chrony I can only estimate the velocity, 3800fps+. I stated in my post "Barnes TSX in 223 or 22-250" shots wont be over 150 yards and will be well placed. that in mind and me not being a "pot hunter" or a "brown its down" type hunter I understood and accepted what it would take and the consequences of possibly not getting a perfect shot and not shooting at all which was the case. Maybe for a inexpeierenced or meat hunter these terms are not agreeable. I read the posts of support and posts of non-supporters of this idea we all know the end to the story but here is some other things that I learned on my hunt.

A browning micro is a dream to hunt with with light weight, short barrel and exceptional accuracy. I love this rifle that I bought several years ago and didnt really do much with it other than scope it and sight it in. The caliber of 22-250 when used in the right application might be a viable deer caliber but I cant say with 100% certainty since I didnt shoot a deer but when hunting with a bob-cat tag in my pocket and being a avid coyote hunter this caliber only made sense, no I didnt kill a cat or even a coyote but if given the oppertunity I may have been using a "good as one can get" gun the controlled expansion of the TSX wouln't ruin a pelt.

More things to consider, over all the posts and poll. There were some who "knew a guy" or something like that that had some good success with a 22 caliber on deer and then there were some that had a opinion on the caliber question but no hard eveidence to back thier theorys.
If we dare to never try anything new we might just still be hunting with spears. I for one will give it a try and do the best I can before I jump to a conclusion. I appreciate all opinions and that is exactly why bulletin boards came to be. No hard feelings and I thank all for the input of my idea, right or wrong I still find it interesting to see if it works.

700V,

Go forth and use in confidence, if you put the bullet in the right place, you will have very dead deer.

Please report back, I am interested to hear your take on the 45gr bullets, as all of my experience is with 53gr. Maybe you will actually be able to recover one.

With all this discussion going on. I now wish I had kept a diary of observations, and taken photos for documentation.

If memeory serves ( and quite often today it does NOT)the 228 Ackley Magnum was very effective until banned by Colorado. I had one in 1952 and the only problem was getting adequate bullets for it. Mine had a swaged belt on it and was very accurate. I would have had no qualms taking any deer with it ,whitetail,muledeer,north or south period. If It's developement had continued and bullet developement had continued at a pace for biggame bullets for it I think you would see many 22 centerfires used for deer and animals of like size. Again if i remember correctly someone in India used a 22 Hi-Power for tiger on a regular basis. Not that I reccomend that, but it's like almost any hunting,it boils down to the proper bullet placed properly and the animal is dead.

Kansas mandates at least a .23 rifle caliber to shoot deer. I am pretty comfortable with the idea that .243 is the smallest round that can be used to shoot deer sized game.

I know at least one hunter from another state who has killed a deer with a .22lr but that is not something I would approve of. Personally I don't think I would ever use a rifle smaller than .25 cal.

I live in Kansas and I would love to be able to use my 22/250 on deer. I feel comfortable with this caliber and have seen family in texas take hogs and deer with no problems.

hum. Well I've taken deer with 22lr and 22WRFM all one shot instant kills, never used any 17-19-20 cal though, but that's because I don't have any. Now the real answer isn't the caliber of the gun, but instead the caliber of the guy behind the trigger. I think if you start hunting young enough, know your firearm well enough and most importantly understand where the game has to be shot with these subcal firearms I see nothing wrong with it, but you have to pick your shot very carefully. .02

State laws vary immensely....Wisconsin allows any centerfire (except .17 cal) and Minnesota requires over .23 caliber and Nebraska requires 900 ft-lb energy at 100 yards.

My pet M-92 in .25-20 isn't legal in some states but is legal in other states.....and in this case caliber isn't the issue.....same for the .32-20!

When one decides a caliber is legal.....he must differentiate a lot.....is the 6 X 45 OK???.....is the 6mm Rem OK?..... how about the .240 Weatherby???

We tend to get exorcised over this baloney and I often wonder why......as in all the years I've hunted deer, I've never seen anyone hunting with a gun I'd consider inadequate......as a matter of fact it's the opposite with a whole lot of hunters way way over gunned!.....and myself included at times!

IMO the .243 Winchester, .250 Savage, .25-35 class of cartridge should be considered a minimum.....and yes I know for a fact that a lot of deer are klled every year with the .223 and faster .22 centerfires.

It's funny because after the rifle seasn folks with bows and arrows will be shooting at deer.....and people with muzzle loaders will be shooting at them and in some cases folks with spears and hatchets will be trying to kill them (check out Kentucky's primitive weapons season)

My feelings that the .243 is a minimum is a personal thing for me only.....others can hunt with anything they want and it don't concern me at all.....again....it's a non problem and don't require fixing!

I believe the Oklahoma law still states minimums are .224 caliber in a weight meeting or exceeding 55 grains.
I have all those components but I choose not to hunt deer with anything less than 85 grain Barnes TSX in 6mm or .25 caliber premium bullet.
My newest deer rifle is a 260 remington and I will shoot 120/130 gr. Barnes TSX bullets.

From yester year.

Fair size mule deer buck going a little down hill quartering toward you. You're a little higher about 35 yards away. Best shot seems to be angling down through the shoulder and into the chest cavity. Is this the shot for a 55gr. bullet at 3700 fps. from a 22.250? Not since I took that shot. Seems like the sub caliber officianados never share there wound to kill ratio. Oh ! I guess I missed.

Some will say the 25-35 And some the 250-3K. With the right bullet and person behind the rifle probably both are correct.

Never killed a white tail, black tail, coastal or Sitka. Could have on all but didn't. Did ,however, put a lot of Mule deer on the table.

When it comes to medium range deer hunting the 6.5X 55 would be hard beat for ADEQUACY. JMHO roger

Whan ever this sort of question comes up,
I look at from at least 2 points of view .
If I were buying a deer rifle, I would not look at anything smaller than a 6mm or .243.
And likly unless I found a rifle I just loved in a 6mm chambering , I would go with at least a .257 caliber round.
But, if I had a chance to go hunting and all I had was a .223, I sure as hell would not stay home.
As far as what other hunters do , if you are hunting with a 22 whatever that is you buisness,
but the 1st time you get a good hit and don't find your deer, and then take a second buck, that is sort of letting the rest of us down.
Not to big a deal cause it can happen with any cartridge, but you knew going in you were pushing your luck.
...tj3006

The smallest caliber I have is 6.5x284. I watched a video where a hunter killed a bull elk at 925 yards with this caliber and a 140 Berger VLD. Other hunts included brown bears with 7mags and either 168 or 180 Berger VLDs. Just because I'm posting it doesn't mean I'm for it, however, if that can be done, I would think that under most acceptable, reasonable hunting distances for deer, there are several 22 cal bullets and calibers that will kill a deer cleanly. Again, just because they can, doesn't mean it would be my choice.

A very good smith I used to build a 270 does most all of his deer and pronghorn hunting with a 22-6mm Remington. He stated: "put the bullet in front of the diaphragm and it will die." He has killed game at 300 yards regularly since he is in New Mexico and has plenty of opportunity.

While sitting next to another hunter, I watched him poke a hole through a great buck at short disance with his 243 and, I think, a 100 gr bullet. The deer was dead on his feet. Of course, that was the problem as it managed to run about 200 yards onto the next property where 2 other hunters shot it and put it down. They got the buck. I've NEVER had a deer go that far with archery equipment. I suppose that same scenario could have happened with just about any rifle/bullet combo since he did put the bullet into the lungs, behind the shoulder. But even before I became a "shoulder" guy, I watched about 99% of my btip/270 deer go straight down.

I voted for 22 cal as marginal. My friend killed a huge mulie with a 22-250 and a 60gr partition. He was being filmed. The buck was under 125 yards if I recall and it dropped with the shot and was stone dead with a lung shot.

I have graduated in the last couple of years as I have written here on AR that my 270s are as small as I'd ever go. Not true anymore since I will be using the 6.5x284 next year.

416 is my choice for small to medium ungulates, and pretty much everything on up....

If forced to use a smaller bore, then 30 cal (30/06) is the only other thing in my safe that I use.

Sure, even a 17 HM2 will kill a deer-but not with certainty. I like certainty.

Think worst case when preparing to take a shot. They deserve it.

Hot Core, you just might go 6 pages on this post.

This is a loaded question! I would feel comfortable hunting deer with anything from a 22LR up. The shot would have to be the right one for the cartridge and I would have to be 100% sure of making it...else, I wouldn't shoot. I wouldn't pick anything smaller than a 22-250 for deer, and would feel more comfortable with a 6mm of some flavor. I usually use a 7x57 or 270...FWIW.

I'm actually curious how a 17 HMR would work on deer...but that's another story.

While I voted for 6 mm as minimum, personally I wouldn't go smaller than a 25 caliber . . . have shot quite a few deer with the .25-06 and my Dad shoots bucks regularly with his .250 savage.

One of my Dad's hunting buddies once shot a buck broadside in the chest with the 17 hmr (it was the gun on hand in the house when the buck showed up on the back pasture) . . . bullet more or less exploded on impact and took out the right lung. Deer ran about 100 yards and toppled over.

Troy

Use any popular deer calibre from 6.5 to 30 cal and providing you do your part well a deer will be brought to grass.
Many hunters like the 25's, me I prefer something that uses a bullet in the 125 to 180 grain range.
Just today I put together a new load for my Tikka 6.5x55, with Lapua Mega 154 grain bullets and 48 grains of H4831SC, it shot into half inch groups and will, providing I do things right, kill any deer out to 250 yards, (probably further but I am a stalker not a sniper), any where in the world.
Happy Hunting

shot placement, with the right type of bullet, at a range it will work within, on the size of game you are pursuing...

poachers have proven 22 LR is adequate for deer for eternity... so have elk poachers here in Oregon...

so with a generic question such as this, one must consider game size, distance being hunted etc...

but do I think a 45 grain Barnes X in a 22 hornet, or a 40 grain ballistic tip in a hornet is adequate for most blacktail within say, 125 to 150 yds? even not at top veloicty...

Put the bullet where it needs to go, you bet...

it will do the job..

its knowing your equipment, its capabilities ( both high and low), and shot placement...

not how big the bullet is in diameter and weight, or how fast of an MV it has....

It is the indian that kill game, not the arrow

I know many deer are taken with 22 caliber cartridges, but I feel that the 243 is a responsible minimum and the legal minumum in some states. That told, I am more comfortable with 25 cal. Lou

quote:

Originally posted by Troy Hibbitts:
While I voted for 6 mm as minimum, personally I wouldn't go smaller than a 25 caliber . . .

That about sums up my opinion too.

Advancements in bullet technology have changed the equation allowing .22's to reliably deliver their energy to targets much larger than varmints, but that hasn't changed the law in some states. I well remember the humongous hole a 55 grain Nosler solid base left in a deer's neck, but the facts remain animal presentation and wind are huge factors when one uses a small calibre bullet.

Would I use my varmint rig again on deer? Sure, but it isn't my first choice and never will be. On the other hand, does that mean I won't use a 30-06 on varmints? You bet I will.

quote:

Originally posted by jabali:
It is the indian that kill game, not the arrow

about any reasonable centerfire load, from 22 hornet up has more energy than an arrow....

and with arrows, its ALL about shot placement...

quote:

Originally posted by buckshot:

quote:

Originally posted by Troy Hibbitts:
While I voted for 6 mm as minimum, personally I wouldn't go smaller than a 25 caliber . . .

That about sums up my opinion too.

X3

quote:

One of my Dad's hunting buddies once shot a buck broadside in the chest with the 17 hmr (it was the gun on hand in the house when the buck showed up on the back pasture) . . . bullet more or less exploded on impact and took out the right lung. Deer ran about 100 yards and toppled over.

Thanks for that, Troy...now I won't hafta try it!

I am comfortable using a .224 bullet as long as it is a premiumly constructed bullet. I have shot at one deer with my 22-250 with Sierra 55 gr Game Kings and scored a direct hit, there was a bit of a splash entrance....say about the size of a quarter due to the bullet hitting a rib going in. There was no exit as the bullet practically disintegrated sending shards of bullet and rib throughout the chest cavity, with some even making through the diaphram. The shot was less than 40 yards and he dropped with the shot, found his legs again, and stubled/funky chickened about 30 yards from where he was shot. I now have a .270 WSM for larger NA game, but wouldn't hesitate to use the trusty 22-250 on a whitetail if I had to!

Well, there are those of us who refer to certain calibers as "weenie" calibers. I for one refer to 243s and 6mm Remingtons as "weenie" calibers even though they can and do certainly kill deer very well. I simply have no interest in them.

Many despise the 270. It is one of my favorite calibers.

I guess I need to rethink some things as my buddy took his girlfriend to New Brunswick this past spring and she killed a big black bear with his 243 and btips that I loaded. Hmmm.

Shot a lot a deer with a 22 cal rifles. Mostly 222, 22 hornet, and 22-250. I see no problems as long a you had decent shot placement.

A 22 hornet with a 45grn barns X-bullet kills does pretty darn dead!

Ed

I let my 5 year old use a 204 with a 40 grain bullet because the recoil is light enough not to bother him and a deer shot broadside in the vitals does not have a chance. This rifle has killed two this year. Both only traveled a short distance and fell within sight. The 204 makes a very small entrance hole. The only consideration with the small calibers that may not pass through is there will be little to no blood trail. If the caliber is so small it may not pass through a broadside shot is a must to me. The distance is also a consideration. I have killed several deer at 400 yds plus and for long range shots I use a 300 RUM and 185 Bergers. Always an exit with alot of blood. I have a friend that has killed over 100 with a 22-250 and wouldn't want anything else. The main thing is put the bullet in the vitals. A deer gut shot with a magnum may suffer and require alot of effort to recover. Merry Christmas and God Bless, Louis

A cool shot can use a .22 cal effectively. In NZ it is legal to hunt big game animals with "any" centrefire calibre. In fact during the deer culling latter years of the 60's and 70's the 222 rem was very popular - I think mainly due to the fact ammo was light to carry and also the low noise provided minimal disturbance to "other" potential animals Remember these men were tasked with destroying all deer they saw in some very inhospitable country.
As many have said I think as long as the ranges are kept sensible, the right bullet is used in a light calibre and the hunter has the ability to shoot accurately then a light calibre is adequate.
Put it this way - if someone who was a supuerb shot was shooting at me offhand with a 222 at 200 yards versus someone who was a bad shot using a 30 06 I know which guy would make me worry the most!!

Good Point Tommo!

When I was a kid, all that I had was my 25-20. Killed a lot of deer (never lost one) with it before I found out how 'inadequate' it was. My next rifle was a 270 and it has done everything that I have ever asked it to do. Deer, elk, hogs, turkey, etc...

If my dad were still alive, 243s would be banned on our place. As the owner of a S. Texas deer lease that has helped track more wounded deer for customers than many folks will ever see, I would have to say 25 cal is the minimum.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

Originally posted by jabali:
It is the indian that kill game, not the arrow

about any reasonable centerfire load, from 22 hornet up has more energy than an arrow....

and with arrows, its ALL about shot placement...

Arrows don’t kill from the effects of kinetic energy. They kill by blood letting (Slicing and dicing , not shock). Your 22 Hornet comparison doesn’t hold water.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Which deer, how far, and under what conditions?

Hunting from a stand where the deer will be motionless and 30 yards away, any .22 centerfire is as effective as you could ask.

If you're talking about prairie bucks of 200 pounds at 300 yards across a wide-open field, then a .243 is marginal, .25-06 or better is adequate, but a .45-70 is not.

Well put. And I agree with you.

I know from personal experience feeding my family when my wife and I were in college but had two kids under age 4, that from a tree stand 8-10 yards away, with shots at the back of the deer's head and me slightly above the deer the expected norm, a .22 Short will do just fine. I used .22 LR when I had the money, but that was not all the time.

For sport hunting, an entirely different matter, I'd say I'd want nothing smaller than a .250 Savage.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

Originally posted by jabali:
It is the indian that kill game, not the arrow

about any reasonable centerfire load, from 22 hornet up has more energy than an arrow....

and with arrows, its ALL about shot placement...

Arrows don’t kill from the effects of kinetic energy. They kill by blood letting (Slicing and dicing , not shock). Your 22 Hornet comparison doesn’t hold water.

maybe not in your opinion....

but 'my' 22 Hornet comparison will still cleanly take deer, with proper shot placemenet, within acceptible ranges, with proper bullets....

just as easily as your arrow...

any good hunter will pass on a shot, that he doesnt' think he and his equipment can't take a game animal with reasonable lethality...

I've had deer do the bang flop with minor calibers, and had others go after having shots that should have killed them on the spot.. but they still went forward...

the last 2 seasons, I have heart shot big blacktails that weighed over 175lbs... but still managed to make it 40 yds or so, with a valley thru their heart....

does that make those calibers inadequate??? I don't think so...

I had a 200 lb doe in Wisconsin one season, take a 180 grain Corelokt out of an 06, factory load.. entered right behind the right rib cage as it was quartering away, at 100 plus yards... bullet took out both lungs and exited out the chest.. deer ran off the lake and a good 50 to 60 yds into the woods.. it ran well over a 100 yds after being hit and left a blood trail like it had been poured out of a 2 litre pop bottle..

would mean that load was inadequate either....
yet I have had 22.250 loads drop them on the spot...

my forgone conclusion.. if you hit a deer when its adrenaline is pumping, it will take off and takes more time to die than does one that never knew what him them....

what works is the man that knows his equipment, his quarry and the upper and lower limits of all of the capabilities of each... and applies them...

as wisely said above.. the arrow does not kill the deer, the Indian does...