I think we are talking about different sized animals here.

.223 guys shoot this size deer and I'm fine with it:





The Taylor index indicates it is fine for both of the animals in the video.

Whatever,

I am not going to change your mind, and you are not going to change mine.

Yep.

How's everything else?

Some folks post actual experience and I can give that some weight. Theories and opinions? Well lets see you miss with a .223 by 2 inches and cripple a deer but a .308 would have brought it down. Ok. But with 30-06 maybe miss 3 inches and .300 mag miss it completely but still get it?? Sure, you can do your grocery shopping in an 18 wheeler--no doubt about it. Does that mean I can't in a car or pickup? Seems like many would tell me I can't, despite the fact I have done it. There is a theory that absolutely proves that bumblbees cant fly. I saw a bumblebee the other day---guess what it was doing?

Very good, the seasons have been especially satisfying this year. The freezer is full.

Most of the stories belong to other people, so they are not mine to tell. But I was thrilled to be a part of them.

How about you?

My nephew that was the main player in this thread is coming back this week-end if all goes to plan. Not only is he coming, but hopes to bring his son. Maybe a new thread next week?

Enjoyed the seasons even though I didn't take anything. My elk hunt was with a bow and the best hunt of any kind I've ever had. Many opportunites. Passed on some lil' guys and passed on some good ones where the shot wasn't right. Kinda like hunting with the .223

The deer hunt was nothing to crow about.

I'll be coyote hunting as much as possible till February. Some birds mixed in to get the dog out!

Shooting a lot of steel and paper in the precision match and itching for February to come for the Sporting Rifle Match to start again at Whittington! Clay targets as always.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
My nephew that was the main player in this thread is coming back this week-end if all goes to plan. Not only is he coming, but hopes to bring his son. Maybe a new thread next week?

You're gonna wear KB out!!!!

Worn out? I dunno about that, but I'm tired of discussing or reading about it, if that's what you mean. After all, it's kinda silly, don't ya think. If these guys are really having that kind of success with the 223, then where is the problem? Since I'm not going to use one, it seems as though it's a non-issue. Case closed.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
My nephew that was the main player in this thread is coming back this week-end if all goes to plan. Not only is he coming, but hopes to bring his son. Maybe a new thread next week?

Please do

K, I know some people that are better shots than me that have lost more deer than me because their hunting circumstances are simply more difficult. So I don't say what I said to prove anything other than in the right circumstances with the right discipline the 223 is an adequate deer cartridge. Also, the only reason I got anywhere close to 90 deer with the 223 was doe-culling over a few years on a fairly large ranch with a management program. Those culls amount to a whole lot of shooting in just a few days at the end of the season and a 223 just fit the ticket. The rancher was a senior gentleman that only owned one rifle; a Monkey Wards built by Savage in the venerable 222.

Since that time I adopted the ammo practice I mentioned above. FWIW, all the loads shoot to the same POI so you don't have to worry about the creeping senility factor when switching.

That said, it isn't my first choice when deer are the primary goal. I reserve that spot for my 22 Hornet...

Not really! I like heavy for caliber bullets going moderately slow (2400-2700) in heavy cover where range isn't an issue or light for caliber mono metals like the 130 gr GS Custom in my 300 Win Mag at 3600 fps when I'm out in the open senderos. Every one in a while I take a big bore like my 550 Magnum just to get in the practice.

I just felt compelled to defend the little round based on what I know it can do.

Tc1--If nephew comes in and brings his son, I'm sure they'll bring the .223. I have a Win mod 70 in .223 that I don't recall anyone ever shooting a deer with it. Not sure if my grandson will be available to go with us, but he has a Rem 600 in .222 that I gave him. He did take a spike buck with it. I have another Rem 600 in .22 just like the one I gave him. Both my grandson and my great nephew have taken a deer with my .222. Guess we could all use .22 cals and the .223 be the big back up gun.

Carpetman,
I for one would be interested in how many deer those boys wounded with those pea shooters? Like most 223 shooters, you only talk about the ones you got, not the ones you lost.

It amazes me that I haven't seen some poster admitting he is an idiot, and after loosing several deer, he refuses to give up on the 223 because you guys say it's so adequate, so the idiot already knows that he just needs more practice. Surely someone has a brother in law, or cousin or uncle who is an idiot and shoots the 223. Surely all 223 users are not experts as you guys ar self proclaimed to be.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Carpetman,
I for one would be interested in how many deer those boys wounded with those pea shooters? Like most 223 shooters, you only talk about the ones you got, not the ones you lost.

It amazes me that I haven't seen some poster admitting he is an idiot, and after loosing several deer, he refuses to give up on the 223 because you guys say it's so adequate, so the idiot already knows that he just needs more practice. Surely someone has a brother in law, or cousin or uncle who is an idiot and shoots the 223. Surely all 223 users are not experts as you guys ar self proclaimed to be.

KB

KB,

The .223 is a magic chambering. You should have gathered that by now.

Now K, I never said I wasn't an idiot; just not on this subject. As an amateur hunting guide I've seen dozens of those guys.

And then there was the guy that shot at five deer with his dad's WWII trophy K98 and a box of 7mm Mauser ammo because the barrel said 7.92.

Had another guy try to shoot his deer with his Colt detective at about 75 yds because it would be cool if he actually killed it. We chased it for two days without luck.

The guy you're looking for doesn't exist because idiocy always defaults to more power and bigger capacity than they've trained to handle be it cars, guns or women. It's the capable that migrate down to the 223 .

Kabluewy--I don't recall proclaiming to be an expert. Personally I only recall one deer I shot with .22 cal and it was a 22-250 and it was found short distance from where shot. I have seen shot and known about several that were shot with .222 and .223 and a few with .22Hornet and none got away--amazingly 100%. Both my grandson and I shot a spike buck with a .243 using cast bullets and I see no way either one of us could have missed, but not one drop of blood found and that one got away. The cast bullet was accurate and the velocity of it still has me puzzled. I shot it over a chronograph and was around 2900 fps which was about 500 fps faster than I expected, according to the book. I also shot several other rounds over the chronograph and they all read where I expected. The guy that owned the chronograph said all his loads were right on. So I don't know whether to believe the chronie or the book??? At any rate, tried it on the spike and wont try cast bullets in .243 again. I hope the deer wasn't wounded. Besides that deer, I know of three others. One was my fault--I jerked the shot and deer ran off full blast and jumped a neighboring fence and was still going full blast when last seen. Strictly my fault, bad shot, gun size not a factor. My son in law shot one with .243 and we found minimal blood and tracked it a long ways but never found deer--obviously a bad hit. There was one other that a youngster shot and I don't recall but I think he was using 7x57 or .308. The next year my nephew found a carcass about half mile away from where it was shot that we think was that deer?? Other than those I know of no others and this is over 25 years and lots of deer that were taken.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
The guy you're looking for doesn't exist because idiocy always defaults to more power and bigger capacity than they've trained to handle be it cars, guns or women. It's the capable that migrate down to the 223 .

That's funny, because intuitively I thought just the opposite, with regard to the 223. Really.

BTW, my Ruger 458 is back from the gunsmith and it now wears a very cool NECG fiber optic front sight and ported hood. But that's for summer and fall use and full blast 350gr or 400 gr loads.

I picked up a 2x7 Leupold 30mm German #4 from Midway when they were supposedly on sale, and a set of Leupold 30mm rings for the Ruger. So, it's mounted and ready to sight in - hopefully this weekend.

The last two evenings, I loaded some reduced loads with 25 grs of SR 4759, and 405gr Rem bullets. I'm trying for about 1200 fps, maybe slightly less to get sub-sonic. I'll drag out the cronograph and find out for sure what it's doing.

I'm going to Texas in January for 10 days of hog hunting, and thinking of taking the 458 with the reduced loads, just for fun. There are plenty of opportunities for 100 yd or less shots. I can't think of a better way to get that 458 out for practice.

I have my trusty Sako L57 / Shilen 308 already in Texas, for backup, and stands with long shot probability. I also have several boxes of Nosler 308 ammo with the 165gr AB waiting. BTW, that's the best factory stuff I ever shot.

What do you think? You know one stuntster to another stuntster kinda opinion. Of all people to ask, surely you 223 fellers have an opinion.

KB

I think its a great plan if that's what floats your boat. Lately I've switched to Trail Boss for my 550 Magnum reduced loads because there's no way you can ever get too many of those big Cheerios in the case to have a kaboom. Just fill to the bottom of the bullet and let'r rip!

I haven't chronographed the load yet but at 715 grains, all that cast bullet has to do is clear the barrel and it will kill something...

I tried the Trail Boss, and for some unknown reason, the loads were not accurate. The SR4759 loads have proven out to be accurate. I have no idea why it works that way.

Tried the same thing in 35 Whelen, same results.

I always shine a flash light into the cases and look at each one, cross and recross, to check the level of powder charge before seating the bullet. I do that whether it's a reduced charge or not, but IMO it's essential with reduced loads where it's possible to double charge. But with full charge loads, it's mostly to avoid seating the bullet in a case with no powder charge.

KB

When I was in my idiot phase (as a young man) I accidently double charged a 44 Mag case with Bullseye and immediately turned my Ruger Super Blackhawk into a 5-shooter.

Once was enough.

Kabluewy--What do I think? I think the .458 has more rainbow trajectory than I care for. No doubt will knock the socks off things. When I lived in Alaska I used a 30-06 and it got things done. The .308 is right there with it. I'd leave the .458 home and use that .308. BTW there arent any hogs where I hunt which is a good thing. My experience with hogs is zero. My grandson has shot some at another place with .308 and my son in law has shot some with 30-06.

Now that I've entered my big bore idiot phase, over charges are definatly to be avoided. There are several things in the shooting sport that can spoil your day, and that's probably in the top ten list.

The older I get, the more I get focused, and follow a routine and protocal when handloading. Never skip a safety step, and re-evaluate safety precautions based on new stuff learned. The safety of shooting my handloads is the very last thing I want to worry about in the field or at the range.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kabluewy--What do I think? I think the .458 has more rainbow trajectory than I care for. No doubt will knock the socks off things. When I lived in Alaska I used a 30-06 and it got things done.

carpetman,
Sure it has a rainbow trajectory, especially with the reduced loads. I have a range finder, and will test the drop at the range with the specific load. That's part of the fun. Like bow hunting, pick the shots, limit the range.

The real use for this rifle is with full blast 350 - 400 gr bullets. I can get close to 2300 fps from the 400 gr, adn close to 2450 fps with the 350 gr like the Barnes TSX. That's real Alaska thump, but way more than I want to use on the hogs. That's why this rifle has a main job in the summer and fall. The trajectory is plenty good for 200 yd shots for moose or black bear, should the situation arise where I just can't get closer.

And mostly, it should have serious stopping authority with the 400gr swift, full load, up close, iron sights. I will not be shooting factory loads in this rifle.

BTW, using a 308 or 30-06 just makes it all too easy. Where's the challange in that? Boom / flop, Boom / flop, dead hogs everywhere.

I could make a challange for myself by using a 223, but instead I favor the big bore reduced loads. It makes more sense to me, and actually enhances the utility of the 458, which I'm having a lot of fun with, and finding quite versitile. If you find that much versitility from a 223, let us know about it.

KB

Kaboom Ye olde Flock Shooter,

The use of a .458 Mag on hogs is nothing more than a stunt and a oxymoron. We need as hunters to show more respect for our critters lest the liberal press and progressives target such stunts.

It's really all about looking at the cartridge and seeing the physics, energy, indexes on that .458. Why can't people see that and do what I tell them to do???

Only a .600 Overkill with a 900 grain bullet at 2400 fps meets the minimum requirements to show sufficient power for these hogs. (see YouTube). The only reason to not utilize this caliber is that you might be a touch recoil shy and in that case, downloading would be recommended. You know, like starting out the 10 year old shooting clays with a 10 guage.

Here's hoping you adjust your shooter to what is recommended and please do as I say. Shoot straight and no head shots due to those "rapid head movements" also avoid all flock shooting. Good luck.

Kabluewy forgot to ask, what town in Texas will you be hunting near? I guess it might be fun for some to be in field doing Math to determine a shot--not for me. The 30-06, .308, .243, and the trusty .223 sight em in at 25 yards and you are good to go to about 250 yards with a dead on hold. Bam flop. I know moose are much bigger than Texas whitetail, and guys like to talk like it takes a freight train to knock em down--30-06 is plenty and if need be you can go a little beyond that 200 yard limit on the .458.

Well, since you asked.

I shot a lot of hogs with a 223 also but I started out with a 220 Swift. I hunted hogs strictly for the wonderful meat and it always disapointed me to lose so much of it to the Swift and shoulder shots. So I became proficient at hog cranial anatomy and began limiting myself to head shots, which lead to the use of the pointy Barnes bronze turned solids in .224 diameter. I can't recall if they were boat tails or not but they were very steamlined and pointy. Like "prick your finger" pointy.

Anyway, one of those to the cabesa at 3900 fps would turn hog skulls into bone flour pronto. So after I switched to the 223 I tried some in it too and had pretty much the same result.

Which got me to thinking "what won't these kill?". You'll be glad to know I resisted the temptation to find out on living creatures but I was able to kill the block in an old IH tractor, perforate the web of railroad tracks thru and thru and put out street lights at great distance (the last one was justified but the story is too long).

So one could say the 223 is a versatile anti materiel round as well as a slayer of big game

carpetman,
The 308 class rifle does make the math easy. Just sight in and shoot out to 250 yds or so without worrying about drop.

I also agree that moose can easily be taken with a 30-06, at 200 yds and beyond.

Doing math in the field, with a range finder, is no problem. Lots of hunters do it.

Shooting and using a 458 is about more than replacing a 30-06 - 308 class rifle, in a similar way that shooting a 223 is about more than replacing a 30-06, etc.

That's why I'm comfortable with this discussion, one stuntster to another kinda thing, yaknow. It's nice that we have so much in common, and such broad interests in rifles of various calibers.

I'll be hunting near and around he town of Kilgore.

KB

Kabluewy--You didn't tell me which part of Texas you will be hunting.
Now having to take ranges, clicking sights and scopes and making holdover allowances--that's stunt hunting. 30-06 is all the recoil I want plus some--shooting a big boomer that has lots more recoil and not nearly the range and accuracy--I wont call that stunt hunting--I have another name which I'll keep to myself. I used 150 grain bullets in my 30-06. Many in Alaska said I needed heavier bullet. What was funny was some of them were shooting .270 and 130 grainers---go figure. I do agree IF more than 30-06 is needed you need a bigger bore --not a faster .30--thus my objection to .300 mags. I also think you just about have to leave North America to need bigger than 30-06.
No stunt to using .223 on the size deer we have here--it's a routine deal.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Well, since you asked.

Which got me to thinking "what won't these kill?". You'll be glad to know I resisted the temptation to find out on living creatures but I was able to kill the block in an old IH tractor, perforate the web of railroad tracks thru and thru and put out street lights at great distance (the last one was justified but the story is too long).

So one could say the 223 is a versatile anti materiel round as well as a slayer of big game

This whole 223 thread is great evidence that some grown men could benefit from adult supervision, and an ankle bracelet.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kabluewy--You didn't tell me which part of Texas you will be hunting.

Now having to take ranges, clicking sights and scopes and making holdover allowances--that's stunt hunting.

I used 150 grain bullets in my 30-06. Many in Alaska said I needed heavier bullet. What was funny was some of them were shooting .270 and 130 grainers---go figure.

I do agree IF more than 30-06 is needed you need a bigger bore --not a faster .30--thus my objection to .300 mags. I also think you just about have to leave North America to need bigger than 30-06.

No stunt to using .223 on the size deer we have here--it's a routine deal.

Kilgore, Texas, near and about.

Clicking sights and/or holdover can mostly be avoided by limiting the range to about 125 yds, with the reduced load mentioned. That load, out of a 458 has more energy at 100 yds that the 44 mag pistol 240gr factory load has at the muzzel. I'm talking about those flat nose 45-70 bullets, 405 gr jacketed over really soft lead, starting out at about 1150 fps.

For you AR types, I could easily duplicate .458 Socom loads with this rifle, using the 300gr TSX. These loads will be much better for trajectory. Think about it - the Socom was made to be suppressor capable, so I see no reason a .458 Socom suppressor wouldn't work well on this rifle, especially sub-sonic.

BTW, I haven't tried these latest loads at the range yet, but some other 458 loads with 4759 have produced clover leaf groups at 100 yds. This is a short throat chambered rifle, handload only. I'm discovering that I may have to trim the brass .050" shorter than std, to get the bullets back off the lands a little. With some bullets, it's a little tight to close the bolt with normal seating length. I crimp all loads, especially with heavy loads. Just seating the bullet deeper, no crimp, may be ok with the light loads, but is not an option with the full blast loads because a heavy crimp is needed. The 500 - 510 gr bullets will not work in this chamber/throat. Factory ammo will not chamber. It's just like I ordered it, and so far turned out as good or better than I hoped for. Basically I wanted a sooped up 45-70, short barreled & handy bolt action rifle, rimless, without the feeding issues I ran into with the 450 Marlin.

Generally speaking, I agree with the heavier than 150 gr for AK. The 270 is a great cartridge, no doubt, but IMO many attribute more magic to it than it really has, just like with the 223.

About the only reason to shoot a 300 WM over the 06, IMO, is range - beyond 300 yds. And I don't take those kind of shots anyway.

Sorry, but I'll probably always consider deer hunting with a 223 as stunt hunting. Good luck with that.

KB

Kabluewy--You agree with needing heavier than 150 grain for Alaska. Check the charts--with their increased velocity, the 150's have more energy at all ranges than 180's (part of reason I use them). Now that I read your posts about all the BS to load for a gun that lobs boulders 100 yards and hurts shooter about as bad as the targeted I easily figured out who needs the ankle bracelet. I repeat a freight train not needed in Alaska to bring down their game. Can you see Russia from your place?

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kabluewy--You agree with needing heavier than 150 grain for Alaska. Check the charts--with their increased velocity, the 150's have more energy at all ranges than 180's (part of reason I use them). Now that I read your posts about all the BS to load for a gun that lobs boulders 100 yards and hurts shooter about as bad as the targeted I easily figured out who needs the ankle bracelet. I repeat a freight train not needed in Alaska to bring down their game. Can you see Russia from your place?

Damn it Ray, that very last sentence was UNCALLED for! You leave my girl alone

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kabluewy--You agree with needing heavier than 150 grain for Alaska. Check the charts--with their increased velocity, the 150's have more energy at all ranges than 180's (part of reason I use them). Now that I read your posts about all the BS to load for a gun that lobs boulders 100 yards and hurts shooter about as bad as the targeted I easily figured out who needs the ankle bracelet. I repeat a freight train not needed in Alaska to bring down their game. Can you see Russia from your place?

It depends on what you are hunting in Alaska, or what you may run into that wants to bite. I feel a bit uncomfortable hauling around a 30-06. Not enough gun kinda thing. But I have started loading 180 gr TSX, to sort of make up for the small caliber.

It's not all about velocity. The 150 gr is a pitiful choice if needed for bear, black or brown.

The reason I posted my BS is because it's no worse than the other BS on this thread. BS needs counterbalance, with an equal dose on the other end of the scale. You don't make up BS, and neither do I. Later in January, I'll post some pictures of my BS.

I can't see Russia, but I can smell it when the wind is right, and I saw a lavender wooly mammoth last week.

KB

Would someone use their 223 to kill this thread

How does that saying go? Something like - if you can't win them over with charm and reason, baffel them with BS.

As gentlemen, we already agreed to disagree, so might as well have some fun with it, and explore the other end of the spectrum - "the 458WM deer rifle".

Reading between the lines - part of my point is that I can't relate to the use of a 223 for deer. It's an abstract concept for me - sort of like a little bit, or a little while, or over yonder, or a little ways, or enough. The 458 deer rifle is not an abstract to me, and I gave detais that define its charater, specifications and performance, and expectations, and some insight into the use of it to get the results expected. I can't do that with a 223, since all formulas or recipes fail my reasonableness tests somehow.

I'm playing around, but also trying to stay relevant.

For some of you, the use of a 458 on deer is something you can't relate to. Now you know how I feel about the 223. I just can't relate to it as a deer cartridge. It's just as ridiculous to me as the 458 for deer is to you. But I can make the 458 work well for deer, for me and have fun with it, and I don't even want to try with the 223. It's too boreing.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:
Would someone use their 223 to kill this thread

The 223/Deer hunting subject is just the villain out of a bad Terminator movie. It never dies! Welcome to your nightmare.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Well, since you asked.

Which got me to thinking "what won't these kill?". You'll be glad to know I resisted the temptation to find out on living creatures but I was able to kill the block in an old IH tractor, perforate the web of railroad tracks thru and thru and put out street lights at great distance (the last one was justified but the story is too long).

So one could say the 223 is a versatile anti materiel round as well as a slayer of big game

This whole 223 thread is great evidence that some grown men could benefit from adult supervision, and an ankle bracelet.

KB

I bet those AR 15 pistols work great on ankle bracelets

Sorry I am late to this thread tonight.

[QUOTEBTW, using a 308 or 30-06 just makes it all too easy. Where's the challange in that? Boom / flop, Boom / flop, dead hogs everywhere.

I could make a challange for myself by using a 223, but instead I favor the big bore reduced loads. It makes more sense to me, and actually enhances the utility of the 458, which I'm having a lot of fun with, and finding quite versitile. If you find that much versitility from a 223, let us know about it.

[/QUOTE]

That right there is funny.

quote:

As gentlemen, we already agreed to disagree, so might as well have some fun with it, and explore the other end of the spectrum - "the 458WM deer rifle".

I can't relate but I have shot some deer with muzzleloaders, does that count? Big diameter, slow moving.

INteresting story about hogs. When I was down in TX last spring I asked the guide what his main rifle was. He was a little flabbergasted when we were sighting in at the ranges. 22-250's to 9.3x64 Brenneks, slug guns and muzzleloaders.

He replied he hunts hogs and deer with a 22-250. He had a 25-06, but felt it was too big.

quote:

Would someone use their 223 to kill this thread

You know the 223 is not adequate, you need at least a 458.

Haven't you been reading?

kabluey--Yes indeed that .458 is versatile I bet it would really do a job on a prarie dog and be just the ticket for an all day shoot. BTW how many bears have you ran into while out hunting? 30-06 too light? I see what the problem is now.