I read this thread and got a few laughs.
I can see both sides of the argument.
I think if a person is willing to learn the capabilities of the weapon they choose to use, and work within these capabilities, then they should be able too.
I think That the average person who hunt's, either can't or won't take the time and effort to learn the weapons capability sould use a larger cartridge.
I think a cartridge that can push a properly designed 120 gr bullet at 2800 fps. As a minumum level for most deer.
So any cartridge less than that should be only used by someone willing to do the work to learn just how to use it.
The 223 can kill deer. If I were to use it I would limit myself to 125 yards or less and restict myself to broad side, neck or straight on chest shots. I have used the 22-250 to kill deer and I use simular parameters, the 22-250 can reach 200 yards.
I currently have a 270 Win With the loads I use I can extend the range to 350-400 yards, with those same shots. If I can't get those shots and need to pucnh trough heavy bones or large muscles, I will either pass on the shot or try to get closer.
I have used several different weapons to take deer. No matter which weapon I use I will always work within the weapons capability.
Any person who hunt's should be willing to do the same.

I think this and previous discussions on the topic point out the need for a new charitable organization...donations are now being accepted for the furnishing of proper C2 ammunition to those in need.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Shoot'em in the ribs and the caliber is not that important

You make it seem like any broadside shot in the ribs on any big game animal will result in a clean kill no matter the weight or velocity of the projectile.

I disagree.

There's quite a few factors that enter into this.

1. The shooter's definition of a "quick, clean kill"

2. Ability of the bullet to penetrate enough to cause enough damage to the vitals--

A. Bullet construction
B. Range which effects Energy, Momentum, and other physics properties of the bullet at the target
1. Bullet weight
2. Bullet velocity
3. Bullet nose configuration
4. Sectional density

D. Differing "toughness" of each animal's hair, hide, skin, fat, bone, connective tissue

I'm sure I'm leaving some out but you get the drift.

All of these things and more have been addressed in any of the Gun Rag's Formulas, whether it be the TI, OGW or others.

Where is the cut off for you? I tried to determine that in the "choosing a rifle to hunt with" thread and why it is your cut off. It is because you are taking these factors into consideration like all of us do, but your meter isn't calibrated the same. That's all.

I disagree with your disagreement

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
LOL carpetman1, I never see a thread titled: “Another 308 Deer” or “Another 458 Deer”. Why is that? Is there something special about a 223? What would that be?

A little touchy?????

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:

quote:

You make it seem like any broadside shot in the ribs on any big game animal will result in a clean kill no matter the weight or velocity of the projectile.

RC I agree,
I have watched through binos as deer were shot through the ribs with a 30-06 and heavy bullets. The deer will often run, sometimes just walk off, and the hunter says "shit! I missed" It wasnt a miss, I've found the deer shot through the lungs with a small hole that took a few minuetes to do the trick. All the energy was wasted. It would have been fine for a quartering shot, or ass shot, but not for a broadside on a 150# deer. This is not just a one time thing, I have witnessed it numerous times as an 06 and heavy bullets seems to be a favorite, why I dont know. Just think of the deer never looked for with those shots because they showed no reaction at the shot.
John, please take note of this when you say a cartridge should be capable of handling any shot. It doesnt work to have one perfect gun/load for all shots. As in my case, that I dont take any old shot presented.
I'll put it this way. Do you have the youngsters you take bird hunting use a 10 ga or 12 ga 3 1/2" shells so they are capable of taking anyshot on a grouse. A grouse that flies off into the brush might get away if shot at with a 20 ga and 7/8 oz of 71/2's. Better chance with 2 1/4 oz of 4's.
Why is there anything wrong with being outwitted by bird or beast, so what, you only saw it's backside. Go a little slower, walk a little quieter, make it be about the hunt not just a kill.

I agree with you. Seems like some lads want you do do it their way or the highway.

Screw'em.

It's kinda like Clint Eastwood said "A man's got ta know his limitations" I guess some are just more limited than others.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
LOL carpetman1, I never see a thread titled: “Another 308 Deer” or “Another 458 Deer”. Why is that? Is there something special about a 223? What would that be?

A little touchy?????

LOL, not really. Glad you could join us! In the words of Bill Cosby, “I love watching Teancum getting a beating!”.

Mickincolo--"Maybe it flies in the face of a number of peoples logic based on their experience". When I have over 25 years experience with this vary thing---as I stated--why would I base it on someone elses experience or opinion---especially when they haven't even stated what experience they have? BTW what is your experience on the subject?

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Mickincolo--"Maybe it flies in the face of a number of peoples logic based on their experience". When I have over 25 years experience with this vary thing---as I stated--why would I base it on someone elses experience or opinion---especially when they haven't even stated what experience they have? BTW what is your experience on the subject?

I have no experience on the subject and I’m not the one that objects to your activities. I’m just pointing out your “in your face” attitude. There is no experience needed for that.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
LOL carpetman1, I never see a thread titled: “Another 308 Deer” or “Another 458 Deer”. Why is that? Is there something special about a 223? What would that be?

A little touchy?????

LOL, not really. Glad you could join us! In the words of Bill Cosby, “I love watching Teancum getting a beating!”.

quote:

Absolutely one of favorite quotes. It is difficult to emphasize the importance of not pushing ones ethics on other people.

Not pushing anything on anybody, just offering an opinion on the act that differs from yours. Your post seems to be pushing your lack of ethics on other people

How is my post showing a lack of ethics? Where have I pushed anything on anyone? You are the only poster I have ever called out because you are a contradiction, demonstrated by your own actions.


In the very same chapter Aldo Leupold talks about the gadgeteer, the industry and the sporting press degenerating hunting.

So RC, where do you fall in this discussion. You have a soap box about small calibers, but yet represent everything I see wrong with hunting.

Industry, longe range shooting, and a gadgeteer (specifically you use a compound bow).

So please don't preach about ethics, because IMO, you should take a good look in the mirror.


So I'm gathering you hunt with a sharp stick or a rock while wearing animal skins? Isn't a rifle a modern gadget? What a hipocritical bunch of crap statement

No, It is you who is the hypocrite. All bent out of shape over 22 caliber for deer, but have no qualms taking long distance shots on game which has a higher percentage chance of being inadequately placed.

Yes, I have used sharpened sticks to gig frogs and obsidian knapped rocks to hunt with.


Why can't you get it. A 22 centerfire works for deer. If you choose not to use one, fine. I am not going to come on and lambast you into to trying one.


As you can see, I didn't "lambast" the poster, I actually agreed that the puny 80 pound Jackalope was about the right size quarry for the pitiful .223 deer rifle

But you have on other threads. And your holier than thou schtick doesn't fly me. Nobody is perfect, and we can all learn from other people. You just seem to want to shove it down their throats. It particular irritates me because you are trying to preach about something you have no actual experience with.

When I first started using 22 centerfires for deer it was specifically because of the armchair quarterbacks. I was very careful with shot placement thinking I had to be extra careful, yada, yada, yada. But as I shot more animals I discovered that it worked just fine and my combination worked like anything else I shot. After more and more animals were shot I became even more comfortable with my combination. The only way to explain it is this: IT WORKS!

quote:

You make it seem like any broadside shot in the ribs on any big game animal will result in a clean kill no matter the weight or velocity of the projectile.

It should state that there are many combinations of calibers, cartridges, bullets, rifles and optics that will result in a clean kill if the bullet is put through the ribs broadside.

Mickincolo--"I have no experience on the subject and I'm not the one that objects to your activities". I'll give a few partial quotes from several separate posts. (1)What bothers me about this in your face attitude--It doesn't bother me but it starts turmoil in the forum and makes real boring reading. Yea it's just shy of a riot. I'm sure if Saeed hadn't put on extra security over in Dubai it would be a full scale riot)(2)It's all look at me (3) small cal boys need to flaunt and brag (4)just question some peoples motivation (5)just question some peoples motivation. All of these people objecting and in state of turmoil have same name--mickincolo. Pretty insulting statements you make when it doesn't even bother you. Do you even have a rifle or perhaps just a keyboard only?

It is all about the naysayers trying to tell other people what to do when they have no actual experience with the topic.

22 centerfires work on deer! The naysayers can argue with smoke and mirrors all they want, but they cannot hide that simple fact.

Their arguments smack of ego, machismo and testosterone.

quote:

Their arguments smack of ego, machismo and testosterone.

No .. just a little sensibility. I'd say the folks who get a kick out of the constant "look at what I can do" are way more full of testosterone.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
It is all about the naysayers trying to tell other people what to do when they have no actual experience with the topic.

22 centerfires work on deer! The naysayers can argue with smoke and mirrors all they want, but they cannot hide that simple fact.

Their arguments smack of ego, machismo and testosterone.

This post can be made for the "use an appropriate caliber" argument as well.

.22 shorts work on deer too! All you have to do is limit the range of your shot, put the bullet in the right place, make sure you use a bullet with the right construction, etc...



SD,
It's funny how you take an opinion that differs from yours and characterize it as "holier than thou" and "ramming it down our throats"!

Learn to debate.

RC, It's just you that is holier than thou.

I wish you could have been with me when all those deer/antelope were killed with a 22 centerfire. It works, it's not the greatest thing since sliced bread, it is not the second coming, and people who use them are not unethical because of that choice. They very well could be unethical, but it is not the caliber's fault.

There is nothing to debate on this issue.

Fact: there are many people who have used 22 centerfires for deer with success. You cannot deny it. To argue against it, is crazy. You can be against it, personally choose to not use them, but your arguements do not have merrit.

List all of your arguements against it, and I will refute each and every one. It will be easy. Because I have seen it work.

I have used 22 centerfires from 40-400 yards with all types of shot presentations and have not found one reason not use them.

I am not bragging, just stating fact, that they work. I am not going around telling everyone that is what they should be using. Just adding my personal experiences when a question is asked. The the naysayers jump in and talk down to the people for even asking the question, and those that respond contrary to you opinion.

I may be flawed because of my motivation. It specifically was because of the armchair quarterbacks with no experience badmouthing the practice. If it was ego, machismo & testosterone in your opinion that motivated me, so be it.

But that was not how I saw it, I wanted to see for myself if they naysayers were right, or what I had seen my hunting companions do since the early 80's was not a fluke.

So I set out to see for myself, so I could speak somewhat intelligently about the practice, with some actual experience to back it up.

In many instances, gunwwriters expound on the virtues of products they are shilling with much less experience than I have with 22 centerfires.

For you to tell people not to use it, you shouldn't use and it won't work??? Do you see my issue with you?

When someone posts, that they personally don't prefer to use it. That's fine. If they start using flawed arguements, then they get called out. The only valid reason not to use one is becuase one is not comfortable with it, not because it will not work.

You keep talking about the size of your deer. So what, I have killed 250-300# mule deer with my 22-250. Go over to 24hr campfire and search some of scenarshooter, Ingwe, and Steelheads threads. What they have done with 22 centerfires makes my experience pale in comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
another thread

Sd,

You've misinterpreted my posts. I've never commanded anyone not to use a certain caliber for certain game, only argued that some choices are better than others and have given my reasons and the reasons of others.

I know it's been done

You ought to get on the thread above and start recommending the .223 and see what you run into if you really believe so strongly in it.

I'd like to see you defend your position with something other than "it works". Like I said, so will a .22 short

Yes killing a small young anterless Texas deer of about 80 pounds is a huge rush of testosterone. Mighty big ego thing indeed.

quote:

Pretty insulting statements you make when it doesn't even bother you. Do you even have a rifle or perhaps just a keyboard only?

Man! And Teancum thought I was touchy. These little 223/deer hunting spats have been going on for years. They use to only come up once a year but now they come up ever few weeks. There wasn’t one idea in this whole thread that wasn’t already argued eight years ago. By now you would think that people would be over the novelty of using 22s on deer but it appears that they aren’t. So keep posting Carpetman, I enjoy watching a good fight.

Mickincolo--You accuse me of flaunting,bragging,starting turmoil, in your face and I'm not sure what else. I didn't insult you once throughout this whole thing-yet. Now you accuse me of being touchy. I'd say you are in bad need of an enema and the area for insertion is big enough that locating it wont be a problem.

I’ll give you the last word. Good Day!

There is nothing like a 223 on deer thread. If I only had a 223, I would hunt deer with it and wait until I could get a good broadside shot. I wouldn't shoot much over 100 yards.

I'm just curious for those that deer hunt with a 223 AND have larger big game rifles (aka a 243 and up), why go out deer hunting with the 223?

quote:

I'm just curious for those that deer hunt with a 223 AND have larger big game rifles (aka a 243 and up), why go out deer hunting with the 223?

Its just to get attention....same as guys that shoot game at 700 yds and make You Tube films..

ScottfromDallas--I started this thread, so I'll answer. Personally I do use my .243. Have for years. Used my 30-06 before that. My nephew that shot the deer in this thread is not a youngster and is a fair sized guy that does shoot larger cals with no problem. He likes this rifle. He bought it for his then 11 year old son a couple years ago and was impressed with the results. He could of just as well used my .243 or brought his own .243 or 30-06 or several others. Yes he was showing off and seeking attention---I was his audience and was duly impressed. My grandson was not with us that day, but was on the ranch--I'm sure he is still in awe of such a feat. The real question is why not use one--100% results--I know been lucky EVERYTIME for years. I already mentioned that my grandson is VERY good deer hunter. I think a big part of this is that when he was younger, I avoided exposing him to too much recoil. A person that can shoot a .223 will have better results than a person shooting more than they can handle.

quote:

I'd like to see you defend your position with something other than "it works". Like I said, so will a .22 short

Honestly, what else needs to be said. When I set out to see for myself I took all the precautions. Perfect shot presentation, being extra careful, all of that. The more I used it, the more I realized that it works the same as a host of other cartridges. No special rules apply with the combination I have used. I will take any shot presented with my 22-250 that I would take with my 270.

The best arguement I have seen presented against their use is very thick cover, ie southern swamps etc. Simple physics dictates that a bigger hole would leave a better blood trail, but not necessarily a shorter one. In those situations, different shot placement may be preferred to eliminate the need for any trailing. Ie. break the skeleton/CNS down for a drop on the spot kill. I have, and will not hesitate to take those shots with my 22-250, but I prefer through the ribs behind the shoulders so as not to ruin too much meat. But it is hunting and you don't always get that perfect presentation.

I have witnessed what happens when heavy bone is encountered, the caliber did not change the outcome at all. I have tried to keep bullets in the deer to recover them and could not do it.

One of the deer I shot this past fall kept a 45gr TSX in the guts after shattering the front leg. I posted pics of that on another thread. It got dark on me and a after a quick search through the gutpile I could not come up the bullet.

Like I stated before I do not go around flaunting uae of the 22 calibers, specifically because of the storm that it starts with the naysayers. I just like to add my personal experience on threads that people specifically ask about the topic.

How much more endorsement does it need from me than to state I have started both of my boys with 22-250's and TSX's bullets for deer.

They have shot thousands of rounds, and what is funny is how their groups open up when they go to a bigger rifle.

There are a whole host of rifle, cartridge, bullet, caliber combinations that will kill deer. Argueing about them just gives all something to do.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
ScottfromDallas--I started this thread, so I'll answer. Personally I do use my .243. Have for years. Used my 30-06 before that. My nephew that shot the deer in this thread is not a youngster and is a fair sized guy that does shoot larger cals with no problem. He likes this rifle. He bought it for his then 11 year old son a couple years ago and was impressed with the results. He could of just as well used my .243 or brought his own .243 or 30-06 or several others. Yes he was showing off and seeking attention---I was his audience and was duly impressed. My grandson was not with us that day, but was on the ranch--I'm sure he is still in awe of such a feat. The real question is why not use one--100% results--I know been lucky EVERYTIME for years. I already mentioned that my grandson is VERY good deer hunter. I think a big part of this is that when he was younger, I avoided exposing him to too much recoil. A person that can shoot a .223 will have better results than a person shooting more than they can handle.

Fair enough. It does go back to your own personal experience. If you drop them every time with a 223, it's hard to argue. Like I said, I've never done it so it's hard for me comment strongly about it. I just know I have a mild kicking 257R that works great. I'm sure there is someone out there that thinks it's too small for deer.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
I just know I have a mild kicking 257R that works great. I'm sure there is someone out there that thinks it's too small for deer.

Probably won't find that person posting here!

Scottfromdallas--I don't have a .257Roberts, but I'm a big fan of it. Yes it is a great one. To you it's mild, but to some youth it would be a real kicker. My grandson is grown and can shoot the big stuff now, but when he first started it would have been too much. He mostly shoots a .308 now as I gave him a Win 88 that he thinks is way cool. I also gave him a Rem 600 in .222 and he shot a spike with it last year. Before the .308 he was mostly using .243.

scottfromdallas--Where do you hunt? How far do you have to go from Dallas? My dad,brother and I hunted Jacksboro once. I didn't get a deer there but had the excitement of gassing a rattlesnake den and getting 13 out of it.

Carpetman,

This year I'm hunting on my friends ranch in Glenn Rose (Somerville county). I'm actually going to look at some land in Camp county today which is in East Texas. As you probably know, the lack of available public hunting (aka getting a permit) land in Texas makes it very difficult to hunt unless you own property or know someone. Even leases are getting too pricey.

quote:

There are a whole host of rifle, cartridge, bullet, caliber combinations that will kill deer. Argueing about them just gives all something to do.

Agreed!

Which makes more sense:

Using a tack hammer or a spike hammer to drive railroad spikes?

Which is more efficient?

I'm sure it could be done with a tack hammer though

There in lies the problem. I do not see a 22-250 as a tack hammer. It does the job efficiently with one shot, as long as I do my part. Dead is dead.

Once again from my experiences.

Twice I have had deer run farther when shot with one of my 338's. A sample of two, so it does not carry much statistical significance.

Funny thing I noticed about the other thread is the fact two of jumped on 22 thing without it even being brought up. Issues? Perhaps.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
There is nothing like a 223 on deer thread. If I only had a 223, I would hunt deer with it and wait until I could get a good broadside shot. I wouldn't shoot much over 100 yards.

I'm just curious for those that deer hunt with a 223 AND have larger big game rifles (aka a 243 and up), why go out deer hunting with the 223?

Honest Question.


I have many hunting rifles from .223 to 45-70 and love hunting with the .223 for the following reasons (not in any order):


1. Very flat trajectory - which is very helpful in the areas that I hunt in, which are very open.

2. Very high velocity - impressive wound performance (3925fps) and kills differently than big and slow. See P.O. Ackley.

3. Practice - probably shoot around 500-750 rounds a year with this rifle at all kinds of varmints at all kinds of distance.

4. Familiarity - shooting this rifle most of the time = learning how it performs in all conditions

5. Suppressed - this rifle has a HTG Auris suppressor on it and does not need ear muffs to shoot it in the field or at the bench.

6 Accuracy - This rifle has been tuned up by my gunsmith and the accuracy is superb at long distances.

7. Success - this rifle has successfully taken many deer and antelope and is a proven killer.

8. Shot selection - this rifle requires the patience for a good presentation by the deer. Fun to wait and watch.

9. Reloading - this caliber allows for flexibility in reloading to match the intended target. Components easily found.

10. Fun - Fun quotient is very high with this rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
There is nothing like a 223 on deer thread. If I only had a 223, I would hunt deer with it and wait until I could get a good broadside shot. I wouldn't shoot much over 100 yards.

I'm just curious for those that deer hunt with a 223 AND have larger big game rifles (aka a 243 and up), why go out deer hunting with the 223?

Honest Question.


I love hunting with the .223 for the following reasons (not in any order):


1. Very flat trajectory - which is very helpful in the areas that I hunt in, which are very open.

2. Very high velocity - impressive wound performance (3925fps) and kills differently than big and slow. See P.O. Ackley.

6 Accuracy - This rifle has been tuned up by my gunsmith and the accuracy is superb at long distances.

7. Success - this rifle has successfully taken many deer and antelope and is a proven killer.

8. Shot selection - this rifle requires the patience for a good presentation by the deer. Fun to wait and watch.

[/QUOTE

Teancum, you olde fawn slayer, such an artist.

May I point out some issues with your post - some apparant contridictions? Oh well, I'll go ahead anyway.

In the load data available to me, I don't see any 223 loads, coming anywhere close to the velocity you are claiming.

And high velocity in the 223 means light bullets, which is exactly the wrong bullet for long range. Low SD and BC generally means low performance at long range, and lots of drop. But of course the 223 is magic in your hands. BTW, the 45gr 223 bullet is .143 BC, and .128 SD in the Speer manual.

Heck, varmint bullets are very questionable for use on deer at any range. You have at least been consistant in all these 223 deer rifle threads, by recommending varmint loads for deer. In fact you are the one who inspired my favorite saying about the 223: "The 223 deer rifle is an oxymoron, the advocate of the 223 deer rifle is a proxymoron."

IMO, if you are really being selective with your shots, with such a pea shooter, you wouldn't even be concerned with anything beyond about 125yds. Claiming the 223 is a long distance deer cartridge is pure BS, and that's the basis for the "problems" with this thread.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
There is nothing like a 223 on deer thread. If I only had a 223, I would hunt deer with it and wait until I could get a good broadside shot. I wouldn't shoot much over 100 yards.

I'm just curious for those that deer hunt with a 223 AND have larger big game rifles (aka a 243 and up), why go out deer hunting with the 223?

Honest Question.


I love hunting with the .223 for the following reasons (not in any order):


1. Very flat trajectory - which is very helpful in the areas that I hunt in, which are very open.

2. Very high velocity - impressive wound performance (3925fps) and kills differently than big and slow. See P.O. Ackley.

6 Accuracy - This rifle has been tuned up by my gunsmith and the accuracy is superb at long distances.

7. Success - this rifle has successfully taken many deer and antelope and is a proven killer.

8. Shot selection - this rifle requires the patience for a good presentation by the deer. Fun to wait and watch.

[/QUOTE

Teancum, you old dog, such an artist.

May I point out some issues with your post - some apparant contridictions? Oh well, I'll go ahead anyway.

In the load data available to me, I don't see any 223 loads, coming anywhere close to the velocity you are claiming.

And high velocity in the 223 means light bullets, which is exactly the wrong bullet for long range. Low SD and BC generally means low performance at long range, and lots of drop. But of course the 223 is magic in your hands. BTW, the 45gr 223 bullet is .143 BC, and .128 SD in the Speer manual.

IMO, if you are really being selective with your shots, with such a pea shooter, you wouldn't even be concerned with anything beyond about 125yds. Claiming the 223 is a long distance deer cartridge is pure BS, and that's the basis for the "problems" with this thread.

KB

I knew if I cast pearls before swine some of the pigs would respond.........but I digress.

Good to hear from you again, you olde Flock Shooter, I guess you're load data is limited...... then again.......you're limited and don't know your own limitations. Having never shot the .223 much I can see how such performance would escape you. And knowing to your closed mind you wouldn't be able to pick up such information from fellow board members who reload for the .223 and exceed my velocities. There is much information available on these boards to those that have eyes to see. Look really really close and you can find the data, and of course I wish you the best of luck!!!!

quote:

Claiming the 223 is a long distance deer cartridge is pure BS, and that's the basis for the "problems" with this thread.

I have philosophical and ethical issues with "long distance deer cartridge" no matter the cartridge. I firmly believe that long range hunting is an oxymoron.

Let's talk about ethics.

I posted this on another thread awhile back.
Which scenario has a higher percentage chance of error? a higher chance of a misplaced bullet?

1. A 22 centerfire at average shot distances? Shall we use 150 yards?
2. Any cartridge at long range? Let's say 600 yards?

It takes an above average marksman to pull off the latter. I do not know if I can personally pull it off. Never tried, never had any interest in trying. But that is my personal choice. For me, it is about the hunt.

I have seen the first done quite a few times with both entry level and experienced hunters.

quote:

Which scenario has a higher percentage chance of error? a higher chance of a misplaced bullet?

1. A 22 centerfire at average shot distances? Shall we use 150 yards?
2. Any cartridge at long range? Let's say 600 yards?

Having fired (possibly thousands) of rounds at prairie dogs with the .225 Winchester, the .220 Swift, and the .22-250 I can say with certainly that the sound hit ratio at that distance was incredibly high.....possibly over 90%!!!

I've only fired a few rounds at the 600 yard mark and those too was at prairie dogs....the hit ratio dropped dramatically.....possibly under 20%.....

I'm not yet prepared to shoot 600 yards at big game and doubt that the day will ever come. A bit over 400 is my best.....and BTW....I'm two for two there!

IMO, having a 223 that's super accurate is kinda a waste, especially with the intention of using it with varmint bullets to shoot deer at long range. So what if it's accurate if it's run out of energy by the time it gets to the target. It then becomes a primo deer wounder.

Kinda like having a 300 WM that the best it will do is 1 & 1/2" to 2" groups at 100 yds. It's a waste IMO, because the energy and trajectory the 300WM produces only becomes useful beyond 250 yds or so. If the rifle isn't accurate enough to make precise shots at long range, saying stuff like it has "hunting accuracy" based on the 100yd groups, is BS, IMO.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
IMO, having a 223 that's super accurate is kinda a waste, especially with the intention of using it with varmint bullets to shoot deer at long range. So what if it's accurate if it's run out of energy by the time it gets to the target. It then becomes a primo deer wounder.

Kinda like having a 300 WM that the best it will do is 1 & 1/2" to 2" groups at 100 yds. It's a waste IMO, because the energy and trajectory the 300WM produces only becomes useful beyond 250 yds or so. If the rifle isn't accurate enough to make precise shots at long range, saying stuff like it has "hunting accuracy" based on the 100yd groups, is BS, IMO.

KB

Hey Flock Shooter

Looks like you're still "bewildered and lost"!!!

quote:

Teancum, you olde fawn slayer, such an artist.

May I point out some issues with your post - some apparant contridictions? Oh well, I'll go ahead anyway.

In the load data available to me, I don't see any 223 loads, coming anywhere close to the velocity you are claiming.

And high velocity in the 223 means light bullets, which is exactly the wrong bullet for long range. Low SD and BC generally means low performance at long range, and lots of drop. But of course the 223 is magic in your hands. BTW, the 45gr 223 bullet is .143 BC, and .128 SD in the Speer manual.

Heck, varmint bullets are very questionable for use on deer at any range. You have at least been consistant in all these 223 deer rifle threads, by recommending varmint loads for deer. In fact you are the one who inspired my favorite saying about the 223: "The 223 deer rifle is an oxymoron, the advocate of the 223 deer rifle is a proxymoron."

IMO, if you are really being selective with your shots, with such a pea shooter, you wouldn't even be concerned with anything beyond about 125yds. Claiming the 223 is a long distance deer cartridge is pure BS, and that's the basis for the "problems" with this thread.

Nice KB!