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What bothers me about this “in your face” attitude? It doesn’t offend me but it starts turmoil in the forum and makes for real boring reading. | |||
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Just kidding. But there are a lot of guys around here that use the various 223s for boat guns, to shoot these little deer when they are on the beach. Seems as though their favorite saying is: "I've killed a ton of deer with my 223", and some of them add: "and so have my boys".  Hey, RC, ya wanta place bets on how many pages this one goes? I mean without us plugging it unduely? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I'm not much of a recoil fan anymore myself. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Is this post really in your face?
If it is I would strongly suggest you take a break from the internet for a day or so. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Come on TC, That little story is not what I’m talking about. | |||
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What's so puzzeling, RC? Of course you know it depends on where they are hit. Ya know, bullet placment. The real question is what is the index number for head and neck shots, or multiple shots? What's a big muley got to do with it? Don't you understand that the qualifying factor of feeling right about the 223 is to always insert the words small deer, and maybe for good measure - close range? And let's not forget to use the word "experience". Try that and see if the mathmatical formula comes out differently? It works for some. We have all heard of "the sum is greater than the parts". Obviously the 223 is a classic, and the origin of those words of wisdom.  KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Probably a good thing not to take the index with you when hunting. if the deer ever see it, it's all over with for us .223 guy's Good night everybody  -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Don't forget that super duper bullet of out-of-this-world construction! I was shooting my .223 on Sunday practicing some unsupported 200 meter shots. I was hitting an 8" steel plate and it would barely move. All the while I was thinking of big game being shot by folks with this pea shooter. | |||
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Had a great elk bow hunt, but the deer hunt was lame. We were thrown into an area for a 4th choice just to get a tag. Didn't see much. It was interesting though on one front. It was the first time I had ever seen Coues Deer or Whitetail in NM! They are tiny and that kind of effected my attitude a tad about the .223. I still wouldn't do it.... I don't care how small they are, they are still very strong and that tiny round is barely enough. I think the strength of the animal is never considered in these threads. I shot a decent muley with my bow one year that took off like a bat out of hell in an open sage brush meadow, jumping over ravines for about 100 yards that you wouldn't imagine before he piled up. Animals are stronger than humans | |||
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Good night TC1, I'll be nice this time. Just having some fun. I have actually softened my opinion about the 223, or those who choose to use it for deer. Not that I would go out and get one, or recommend one, but it is rather a mystery and hard to argue with some of these hardy guys around here who have such success with their 223. Whatever works for you. That's great. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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That's the story of my life, one way or the other but not both. Oh Well! | |||
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Not that's my opinion. What got me started was all the "you can't do that, you shouldn't do that from all the fricken armchair cowboys that have not BTDT. Or maybe it is just the contrarian in me. I don't know if 223's work for deer, I have never used one. So I stay off the thread until the "gallery" shows up. I do have a bit of experience with 22-250's and deer. Enough to comfortably say it works and recommend it for people that have recoil issues.
That's what we need, some fricken book telling us what we have done successfully. Doesn't work????? Is inadequate???? Shouldn't be done???
Absolutely one of favorite quotes. It is difficult to emphasize the importance of not pushing ones ethics on other people. In the very same chapter Aldo Leupold talks about the gadgeteer, the industry and the sporting press degenerating hunting. So RC, where do you fall in this discussion. You have a soap box about small calibers, but yet represent everything I see wrong with hunting. Industry, longe range shooting, and a gadgeteer (specifically you use a compound bow). So please don't preach about ethics, because IMO, you should take a good look in the mirror. Why can't you get it. A 22 centerfire works for deer. If you choose not to use one, fine. I am not going to come on and lambast you into to trying one. I am not chest thumping about my experience's, just sharing what works! If someone is averse to recoil, the 22 centerfires are a viable option. Whatever it takes to get the hunter to put the bullet in the right spot. After all.... shot placement is the most important factor in recovering an animal. Be it a rifle, shotgun or bow. Rant off | |||
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carpetman1, Congratulations to your nephew, I am glad he got some RR from his stressful job and was able to to put some venison in the freezer. I have BTDT with stress in the health profession also. Hunting is very good therapy and allows the brain to reset. In fact this and another forum offer a very good wind down from the stress of work every night. | |||
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SD Hunter--Thanks. My nephew came here a couple years ago after 6 yrs in the Army and a tour in Iraq. He said he finds it relaxing, even if he doesn't kill a deer--just getting out. | |||
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rcamuglia--You were shooting a steel plate at 200 meters with a .223. You bow hunt. How much plate movement do you get at 200 meters with your bow? | |||
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Mickincolo--Topic was in your face? You question it? Why didnt you ask me my intent--I started the thread. Should I have labeled it First ever deer taken with a .223? Should I have lied and said it was a .300 magnum? Maybe guys on the archery board should say they were using a rifle? The ranch I hunt on is owned by my son in law and for over 25 years I am familar with pretty much who used what to take their deer. What's to flaunt about killing a deer? Only conclusion I can come up with is you don't know how the deer will react until you pull the trigger. Ive seen em survive a big boomer and drop instantly to small--you never know. Bullet placement is the big key. Exception--cast bullet in 6mm dont seem to work. My 21 year old grandson has taken more deer out there than anyone. True story--he shot his first buck while setting on my knees. Spike buck came in to my side and it was easier for him to set on my knees than it was for me to move. I have been with him when he shot several of his deer and a few things I have noticed that I think make him so good. He can spot deer very well. Once spotted he will patently wait for the right presentation and pass the shot if it doesn't happen. He has a very soft trigger squeeze. Lots of good memories--I thought sharing them was part of the purpose for these boards, didnt know it started turmoil. If you don't have some memories to share, you need to get out more. | |||
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Me too -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Good post above carpetman, It must be human nature to read through posts that you know will piss your own opinion off... I have said this before, I will not shoot at the ass end of an animal, I will go home empty handed if the shot I want isnt presented. I have used and seen used everything from 17 rem to 378 wthby on deer to eland sized game, so I do have a base to compare to when I use caliber X on game Y. When I guide a youth or recoil sensitive person for deer, have a rest available, only let them shoot at broadside,standing deer and a range I know is reasonable ( usually less then 100 yds) please RC and others tell me how a 30-06 is going to kill any deader then a 64 grn .223 or 80 grn 6 TCU? | |||
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This sounds like sport shooting...the arcade at the carnival..stalking game with the 223 (Daisy??) until the right shot presents and then coming on forums to tout the caliber as a deer rifle. I appreciate your admission that the gun requires the right presentation. I would like to be less limited..thus the 7 x 57. Do you really think many are as choosy as you with a 22 centerfire in their hands? Thats whats wrong with this discussion. The fact that this "feat" keeps coming up proves to me that it IS considered to be a circus trick and walking the edge..other wise folks wouldn't waste so much time talking about it. | |||
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So, a 7X57 allows you to be a slob hunter. Very telling. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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You needed to put a bunch of these after your comment, TC1. What Jon's statment is "telling" me is that he is of the opinion that something like the 7x57 gives a little better margin for error, and increases the probability of success, and of course lessens the odds of dissappointment, or unsuccessful tracking job. It's something I'm in agreement with. I guess it's fair to turn it around and accuse those using the 7x57 for deer as slob hunters. At least we know what it feels like to be called that, and try to not use that term in relation to those choosing to use the 223 for deer hunting. Thinking it - ok, but actually using the term slob, well, that's provocative, isn't it? I thought it plenty, when my buddy in Texas wounded that nice doe that got away, but I didn't say it, so we are still buddies. And he still uses his 223. I gave him a 270 that's very accurate, in hopes he will leave the 223 at home, at least when I'm around. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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JohnP, I hope you are not seriously giving me shit for only takeing carefull shots, regardless of the caliber, as I have stated?? I would hope that was said because you felt the need to respond, otherwise, it's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. I have yet to tell someone not to shoot game in the ass or what to use. On the other hand, why or how can you condem what I use with the standards I hunt with?? I have hunted over many parts of the globe with various calibers on various game with the same hunting standards, it works for me, why try to belittle the results I have? I dont bowhunt, but respect the people who practice enough and are patient enough to be successful at it. Why is that any differant then useing a smaller caliber then you choose, but works just as well in it's proper restrictions? Even a 7x57 has limits, does it not? You wouldnt shoot at 1,000 yds with it, I wouldnt take, or allow a shot at more then 125 yds or so on a standing deer. I've talked to enough vetrenarians that hunt to know their take on what it takes to kill. They have all said the same thing, a shot through the heart and/or lungs with sufficiant power to damage such organs is going to kill it a very short span. Whether its pumped up from being startled or calm and unaware makes a differance no matter the caliber or energy. if you find a vet (or anyone else)to tell you differant I would like to know why.? | |||
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Looks to me like JonP paid the back40 a complement, rather than giving shit. The few that have the ability and patience and skill to carefully use the 223 – great. IMO, and observation it’s not the norm. And even with being careful and precieved precision, little mistakes in judgment and placment make a big difference in the outcome. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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What it tells me is that he feels he doesn't need to wait for the shot to present itself because he uses a larger caliber as a crutch and then goes on to describe what he doesn't agree with as a "circus act" "carnival shooting" and a "feat." I like many other people will only shoot when the shot presents itself no matter what caliber the rifle is chambered in. His post like so many others is based in ignorance and nothing else. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Well, we agree at least that shot placment is important, and waiting for the right presentation is part of it. I think it's going a bit far to say that usins who use 308s, 6.5s, 7mms, etc, are choosing such cartridges because our skill level needs a crutch. But sometimes, like last year on my Texas hog hunt, after the fifth or sixth hog DRT, I sorta begin to feel that maybe I was taking unfair advantage of the hogs, ya know - making it too easy to whack um. But I got over it, because I then realized that if I had to track one, I would just bitch about it. BTW, with patience, I got pretty good with geedubya's behind-the-ear shot. Probably, with that kind of shot it wouldn't make any difference useing a 223 or a 308. Generally, but not always, I was in a stand, had plenty of time, and a rest for the rifle. The shot that really made me appreciate the 308 was the broadside running shot, (free-hand, no rest, hog in full speed run at 30 yds, me standing on the path to the stand) and the boar (big one too) grunted once, ran about 25 yds, grunted again and died. Heck he was running so fast that he could have coasted for 25 yds. I'm sure the hog would have died with the same shot from a 223, but maybe 200 yds further in the briers.Regards, KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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First off, I don't give people shit...respect your opinion and willing to admit that your prowess with a centerfire may be more than mine. I guess I'm old school and feel we have a duty as ethical hunters to condone "best practice". For years I lived and hunted in Europe. The hunters in Germany as a group are the most highly educated, skilled, disciplined and regulated in the world. The 222, 22 Savage Hi Power, 223, and the like are allowed on game up to and including roe deer (live weight 45lb). The taking of larger game (fallow and red deer, hogs) requires a minimum of a 6.5 and in most cases you will be asked to bring at least a 7 mm. After decades of meticulous record keeping (kills, caliber, shots fired, etc) they feel that these are recommended calibers in the hands of hunters who have studied and taken practicals for up to 2 years in order to pass the tests for their Jagdschein (Gruener Arbitur for those German speaking lurkers). Now I'm sure we're going to hear some snickering and negative comments about the socialized hunting systems of Europe, but years and years of records bear it out. I have seen too many shots that were just a bit low, too high, too far back with larger calibers that ended in DRT anyway. I don't think that happens with a 17, 204, Hornet or a 223. I'm sure you can shoot the left nut off a chipmunk at 300 yds...but that's sport to me not hunting. | |||
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And thats exactly why I hunt the way I do, pass up shots ect. your snide comment of "300 yd shooting is sport not hunting", you also have no idea how I do my hunting do you? In truth I have shot my share of animals over the years. I get more enjoyment out of guiding someone to a good shot then I do shooting myself nowdays. Not everyone understands that, but I have nothing to prove to myself or anyone else and helping new hunters be successfull is a reward for me. Kabluey, you do a good job of trying to be peacemaker RC, I dont always agree with you, but I certainly didnt see anything at all offensive to what youve said in this post, I thought you were fair and honest in your replies, for what it's worth on my part. | |||
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Nothing was said with a snide intent...maybe absurd...but not snide. I too guide...mainly young hunters over my bird dogs or in a duckblind. I don't guide big game. I find it revealing that there could be so much argument against what all of us know to be best practice..to be afield with a gun that is more than adequate for the hunt under all conditions and know how to use it. That would not be a 223 or Hornet..or 17, etc. When shooting game, I don't think its about sport...its just efficient, responsible killing. For you, maybe that can mean a 223 or a Gamo 177....I guess the discussion offends me because for the most hunters, the 223 should not be an option. | |||
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I'm confused. What is meant by "circus act"? At first I thought something with low probability--like a Hail Mary pass in football--they seldom work. Thinking back, I don't recall a deer being lost using a .223---100% positive results. I too use bigger guns and am a big fan of 30-06 for example. To me the circus act is using a bigger gun and the false notion that you can take risky shots and boomer will compensate. Premium bullets--I agree with that theory--a premium bullet is one that is placed in the proper place. When the law is made as to what is legal and what is not I hope they had some numbers to use to make that determination. | |||
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Bingo +1 My Daddy told me to "shot'em in the ribs!!!!" All the lads that I hunt with and myself relish the taste of the wild game we shoot and have no desire to butt shoot anything. It ruins the best part of the critter. Patience is required to get the right presentation and then we send it. A nice mule deer that has grazed the summer on an alfalfa field and a young bull elk or cow taste too good to ruin any part of them. Shoot'em in the ribs and the caliber is not that important. | |||
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You make it seem like any broadside shot in the ribs on any big game animal will result in a clean kill no matter the weight or velocity of the projectile. I disagree. There's quite a few factors that enter into this. 1. The shooter's definition of a "quick, clean kill" 2. Ability of the bullet to penetrate enough to cause enough damage to the vitals-- A. Bullet construction B. Range which effects Energy, Momentum, and other physics properties of the bullet at the target 1. Bullet weight 2. Bullet velocity 3. Bullet nose configuration 4. Sectional density D. Differing "toughness" of each animal's hair, hide, skin, fat, bone, connective tissue I'm sure I'm leaving some out but you get the drift. All of these things and more have been addressed in any of the Gun Rag's Formulas, whether it be the TI, OGW or others. Where is the cut off for you? I tried to determine that in the "choosing a rifle to hunt with" thread and why it is your cut off. It is because you are taking these factors into consideration like all of us do, but your meter isn't calibrated the same. That's all. | |||
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The “in your face” attitude started with the title of your thread. It wasn’t “Another Deer”, you had to qualify it with 223 knowing full well how volatile the subject is. That’s fine with me But don’t act surprised when it draws fire from a number of people around here. | |||
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Mickincolo--This deer was shot with a .223 and wasn't the first. Another deer with .223 sure seems correct to me. Should I perhaps contact you in the future and find out what title will suit you? There was an Aggie journalist (here in Texas we have Texas A&M and the Aggies are the butt of many jokes) that wrote good stories but his headlines were too big. The editor told him to write short headlines. A big story broke and was given to the aggie. A man escaped from a mental institution and raped 10 women that night. His headline read "Nut bolts and screws." Maybe he can write my titles. | |||
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Were there any sheep involved in that story??? | |||
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LOL carpetman1, I never see a thread titled: “Another 308 Deer” or “Another 458 Deer”. Why is that?  Is there something special about a 223? What would that be? | |||
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MickinColo--I never see a thread titled "another .308 deer" or another 458 deer--why is that? Hmmm maybe they only shot one with those rounds and then switched to .223? | |||
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RC I agree, I have watched through binos as deer were shot through the ribs with a 30-06 and heavy bullets. The deer will often run, sometimes just walk off, and the hunter says "shit! I missed" It wasnt a miss, I've found the deer shot through the lungs with a small hole that took a few minuetes to do the trick. All the energy was wasted. It would have been fine for a quartering shot, or ass shot, but not for a broadside on a 150# deer. This is not just a one time thing, I have witnessed it numerous times as an 06 and heavy bullets seems to be a favorite, why I dont know. Just think of the deer never looked for with those shots because they showed no reaction at the shot. John, please take note of this when you say a cartridge should be capable of handling any shot. It doesnt work to have one perfect gun/load for all shots. As in my case, that I dont take any old shot presented. I'll put it this way. Do you have the youngsters you take bird hunting use a 10 ga or 12 ga 3 1/2" shells so they are capable of taking anyshot on a grouse. A grouse that flies off into the brush might get away if shot at with a 20 ga and 7/8 oz of 71/2's. Better chance with 2 1/4 oz of 4's. Why is there anything wrong with being outwitted by bird or beast, so what, you only saw it's backside. Go a little slower, walk a little quieter, make it be about the hunt not just a kill. | |||
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LOL carpetman1. Maybe it’s because the use of a 22 would be unique to them? Maybe it flies in the face of a number of people’s logic based on their “experiences”?  | |||
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