quote:

I have philosophical and ethical issues with "long distance deer cartridge" no matter the cartridge. I firmly believe that long range hunting is an oxymoron.

Let's talk about ethics.

I posted this on another thread awhile back.
Which scenario has a higher percentage chance of error? a higher chance of a misplaced bullet?

1. A 22 centerfire at average shot distances? Shall we use 150 yards?
2. Any cartridge at long range? Let's say 600 yards?

It takes an above average marksman to pull off the latter. I do not know if I can personally pull it off. Never tried, never had any interest in trying. But that is my personal choice. For me, it is about the hunt.

I have seen the first done quite a few times with both entry level and experienced hunters.

quote:

IMO, having a 223 that's super accurate is kinda a waste, especially with the intention of using it with varmint bullets to shoot deer at long range. So what if it's accurate if it's run out of energy by the time it gets to the target. It then becomes a primo deer wounder.

Kinda like having a 300 WM that the best it will do is 1 & 1/2" to 2" groups at 100 yds. It's a waste IMO, because the energy and trajectory the 300WM produces only becomes useful beyond 250 yds or so. If the rifle isn't accurate enough to make precise shots at long range, saying stuff like it has "hunting accuracy" based on the 100yd groups, is BS, IMO.

KB

quote:

I knew if I cast pearls before swine some of the pigs would respond.........but I digress.

Good to hear from you again, you olde Flock Shooter, I guess you're load data is limited...... then again.......you're limited and don't know your own limitations. Having never shot the .223 much I can see how such performance would escape you. And knowing to your closed mind you wouldn't be able to pick up such information from fellow board members who reload for the .223 and exceed my velocities. There is much information available on these boards to those that have eyes to see. Look really really close and you can find the data, and of course I wish you the best of luck!!!!

quote:

Hey Flock Shooter

Looks like you're still "bewildered and lost"!!!

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
There in lies the problem. I do not see a 22-250 as a tack hammer. It does the job efficiently with one shot, as long as I do my part. Dead is dead.

Once again from my experiences.

Twice I have had deer run farther when shot with one of my 338's. A sample of two, so it does not carry much statistical significance.

quote:

Originally posted by teancum:

Hey Flock Shooter

Looks like you're still "bewildered and lost"!!!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

These would be classified as "Not Nice"

Quite a contrast between the Pro-.223 guys Vr. the Anti-.223 guys in debating styles!

Except for SD! Your post has validity!

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
There in lies the problem. I do not see a 22-250 as a tack hammer. It does the job efficiently with one shot, as long as I do my part. Dead is dead.

Once again from my experiences.

Twice I have had deer run farther when shot with one of my 338's. A sample of two, so it does not carry much statistical significance.

The last deer I got was with my 338, at about 150 yds. I took it hunting because I didn't have access to my other rifles, and I knew the load I had was sighted in for the 338. 225gr Hornady SST.

I have taken maybe a dozen of these Sitka deer with the 338, and even with a not-so-good hit, they havent gone further than 15 feet or so.

The last one, in November, was facing me straight on and looking like about to bolt any second. I had been hunting three days and this ws the first, and only, buck I saw. So I took a shot that I don't normally do. Right between the chin and brisket. The bullet lodged in the right ham. It did what one would expect and messed up some meat, but I really didn't expect so much damage. I can't imagine how that deer made it ten feet, but it did. I suspect that it rolled about 7 feet.

Anyway, I really don't recommend the 338 for deer, and the prime reason I take it often is in case of bears. But I see no reason for a deer to run far, hit with a 338, unless the bullet is very hard, and doesn't expand hardly at all. But it seems to me the velocity alone would do the job. That SST hit so hard that it broke ribs on both sides of the deer, and it passed right down the middle.

Anyway, I decided that I need to find a bullet with more penetration. That SST should have exited. Maybe the TSX next time.

BTW, this 338 and the 225 SST is the kind of combo that IMO would be excellent for long range - say beyond 300 yds, maybe a lot further - I dunno, since I'm probably not going to try it. But it has plenty of energy left, and the bullet will still expand way out there. It clearly has too much energy at 150 yds or less, and the bullet expands too much.

With a cartridge that produces too much energy, shot placment is really important. If I had shot that deer in the shoulder, it would have mess up practically all the front part of the meat. As it was, the neck was good, most of the shoulder meat, the back straps, brisket, one ham, and we saved most of the other ham, since the bullet had slowed by the time it got there. The ribs were trashed, and the tender loins. The liver had a lot of holes in it, but the heart was good. So, even with that through the middle shot, most of the damage was internal.

This buck was rutty, which is just like my hunting budd likes them. He claims they have "flavor". I think they would spoil even the spicest stew. So he gets the meat on bucks like this one. I'll eat it, but it's not my favorite.




KB

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

I knew if I cast pearls before swine some of the pigs would respond.........but I digress.

Good to hear from you again, you olde Flock Shooter, I guess you're load data is limited...... then again.......you're limited and don't know your own limitations. Having never shot the .223 much I can see how such performance would escape you. And knowing to your closed mind you wouldn't be able to pick up such information from fellow board members who reload for the .223 and exceed my velocities. There is much information available on these boards to those that have eyes to see. Look really really close and you can find the data, and of course I wish you the best of luck!!!!

quote:

Hey Flock Shooter

Looks like you're still "bewildered and lost"!!!

These would be classified as "Not Nice"

Quite a contrast between the Pro-.223 guys Vr. the Anti-.223 guys in debating styles!

It seems the Anti-.223 folks like to use fact, data, ballistics, and common sense as reinforcement for their postition, but the Pro-.223 camp gets inflamed like a "cold sore", starts bitching and throwing around insults and pulling their pants down to reveal their asses.

Except for SD! Your post has validity!

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

I knew if I cast pearls before swine some of the pigs would respond.........but I digress.

Good to hear from you again, you olde Flock Shooter, I guess you're load data is limited...... then again.......you're limited and don't know your own limitations. Having never shot the .223 much I can see how such performance would escape you. And knowing to your closed mind you wouldn't be able to pick up such information from fellow board members who reload for the .223 and exceed my velocities. There is much information available on these boards to those that have eyes to see. Look really really close and you can find the data, and of course I wish you the best of luck!!!!

quote:

Hey Flock Shooter

Looks like you're still "bewildered and lost"!!!

These would be classified as "Not Nice"

Quite a contrast between the Pro-.223 guys Vr. the Anti-.223 guys in debating styles!

It seems the Anti-.223 folks like to use fact, data, ballistics, and common sense as reinforcement for their postition, but the Pro-.223 camp gets inflamed like a "cold sore", starts bitching and throwing around insults and pulling their pants down to reveal their asses.

Except for SD! Your post has validity!

Just turning the other "cheek". When the hose turns around on you, you seem to call foul. How pathetic!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Cyberspace clutter. What's with this copying/quoting entire posts, pictures and all?

Do you have a clue how to edit?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
Nice fawn!!! What did he weigh?? 80 Lbs.?

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
I'm just curious for those that deer hunt with a 223 AND have larger big game rifles (aka a 243 and up), why go out deer hunting with the 223?

quote:

for those that deer hunt with a 223 AND have larger big game rifles (aka a 243 and up), why go out deer hunting with the 223?

quote:

Mickincolo--You accuse me of flaunting,bragging,starting turmoil, in your face

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
I'm just curious for those that deer hunt with a 223 AND have larger big game rifles (aka a 243 and up), why go out deer hunting with the 223?

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

I knew if I cast pearls before swine some of the pigs would respond.........but I digress.

Good to hear from you again, you olde Flock Shooter, I guess you're load data is limited...... then again.......you're limited and don't know your own limitations. Having never shot the .223 much I can see how such performance would escape you. And knowing to your closed mind you wouldn't be able to pick up such information from fellow board members who reload for the .223 and exceed my velocities. There is much information available on these boards to those that have eyes to see. Look really really close and you can find the data, and of course I wish you the best of luck!!!!

quote:

Hey Flock Shooter

Looks like you're still "bewildered and lost"!!!

These would be classified as "Not Nice"

Quite a contrast between the Pro-.223 guys Vr. the Anti-.223 guys in debating styles!

It seems the Anti-.223 folks like to use fact, data, ballistics, and common sense as reinforcement for their postition, but the Pro-.223 camp gets inflamed like a "cold sore", starts bitching and throwing around insults and pulling their pants down to reveal their asses.

Except for SD! Your post has validity!

Just turning the other "cheek". When the hose turns around on you, you seems to call foul. How pathetic!!!

quote:

I'm sort of wondering how much hunting some people here actually do and I really don't mean that in a bad way. If I only went on a couple of hunts a year and I paid a premium to be on those hunts I probably wouldn't use a .223 That said, I'm fortunate in being able to hunt the entire season on family land and get to go as much as I want to. There is no pressure to harvest game and if I pass on a shot it's no big deal. The freezer will be full before the end of the season. That said the .223 just works for me and I've never lost a deer using it. Some folks here seem to think this is a "debate" they can "win." Funny stuff. It's just a few folks that are running thier mouths about something they don't know anything about. They bring up stuff like the taylor index to try to shore up thier total lack of experience and think if they post enough times they "win." They'll post a hundred times on a thread like this but they really have nothing to say because they don't have any real experience to fall back on. They think they know what's best for everybody and will try to impose thier views on other people. It's sad this is this forum has come to but it has.

quote:

with a willow branch strung with the leftover hemp in your back yard!

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
The 22 caliber TSX's are pretty easy on meat, as long no major bone is encountered.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
Great post Terry.

I use my 22-250's because of the rifles, my favorite is a Remington LVSF. To put in simple terms, it is a hunting rifle and when I pull the trigger critters die. Most everyone has one of those rifles, so you can relate.

I know that my 22-250 will work unequivocally.. as long as I do my part.

Anyone want to bet against me.

Kabluewy,
My two experiences with the 338 and deer is anecdotal at best. Those two examples were both with premium bullets. Through the ribs on actively rutting mature whitetails. Left very good blood trails, the deer just did not know they were dead.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

I knew if I cast pearls before swine some of the pigs would respond.........but I digress.

Good to hear from you again, you olde Flock Shooter, I guess you're load data is limited...... then again.......you're limited and don't know your own limitations. Having never shot the .223 much I can see how such performance would escape you. And knowing to your closed mind you wouldn't be able to pick up such information from fellow board members who reload for the .223 and exceed my velocities. There is much information available on these boards to those that have eyes to see. Look really really close and you can find the data, and of course I wish you the best of luck!!!!

quote:

Hey Flock Shooter

Looks like you're still "bewildered and lost"!!!

These would be classified as "Not Nice"

Quite a contrast between the Pro-.223 guys Vr. the Anti-.223 guys in debating styles!

It seems the Anti-.223 folks like to use fact, data, ballistics, and common sense as reinforcement for their postition, but the Pro-.223 camp gets inflamed like a "cold sore", starts bitching and throwing around insults and pulling their pants down to reveal their asses.

Except for SD! Your post has validity!

Just turning the other "cheek". When the hose turns around on you, you seems to call foul. How pathetic!!!

Nice "cheek" reference teancum!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

I'm sort of wondering how much hunting some people here actually do and I really don't mean that in a bad way. If I only went on a couple of hunts a year and I paid a premium to be on those hunts I probably wouldn't use a .223 That said, I'm fortunate in being able to hunt the entire season on family land and get to go as much as I want to. There is no pressure to harvest game and if I pass on a shot it's no big deal. The freezer will be full before the end of the season. That said the .223 just works for me and I've never lost a deer using it. Some folks here seem to think this is a "debate" they can "win." Funny stuff. It's just a few folks that are running thier mouths about something they don't know anything about. They bring up stuff like the taylor index to try to shore up thier total lack of experience and think if they post enough times they "win." They'll post a hundred times on a thread like this but they really have nothing to say because they don't have any real experience to fall back on. They think they know what's best for everybody and will try to impose thier views on other people. It's sad this is this forum has come to but it has.

Great post!

It's funny, the same can be said for you .223 guys badmouthing bowhunting!

Ya know, pass up shots with the wrong angle, properly "place" the shot, limit the range and really hunt. In fact the .223 is a lot like a bow and arrow!

Since the .223 would definitely qualify as a primitive weapon for big game, I think (and would be fine with) it should have its own license stratification separated from other rifles.

Ah yes, a special .223 big game season!

I hunt with a bow for big game during bow season; one that is more than adequate.

You .223 guys hunt with a "big game rifle" that is like hunting during a bow hunt with a willow branch strung with the leftover hemp in your back yard!

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
I'm just curious for those that deer hunt with a 223 AND have larger big game rifles (aka a 243 and up), why go out deer hunting with the 223?

It's not a hard question to answer. I use the .223 because it works and I enjoy using it. It's no harder than that.

I own many rifles in many calibers and use them for different things. Sometimes I pick one simply because it's the one I want to use for the spot I want to hunt. Other times I pick one because it's better suited to the situation at hand.

When I do hunt with the .223 I usually hunt a spot that's well suited to the cartridge and it's capabilities.

I own a 7X57 and don't leave it in the safe because I also own a 7mag. I know that kind of flies in the face of some peoples scewed logic, but what can I say, it's the internet.

Is the .223 the ultimate deer cartridge? the answer is no. Will it work about as well as anything else when used to it's strengths? The answer is yes.

I'm sort of wondering how much hunting some people here actually do and I really don't mean that in a bad way. If I only went on a couple of hunts a year and I paid a premium to be on those hunts I probably wouldn't use a .223 That said, I'm fortunate in being able to hunt the entire season on family land and get to go as much as I want to. There is no pressure to harvest game and if I pass on a shot it's no big deal. The freezer will be full before the end of the season. That said the .223 just works for me and I've never lost a deer using it. Some folks here seem to think this is a "debate" they can "win." Funny stuff. It's just a few folks that are running thier mouths about something they don't know anything about. They bring up stuff like the taylor index to try to shore up thier total lack of experience and think if they post enough times they "win." They'll post a hundred times on a thread like this but they really have nothing to say because they don't have any real experience to fall back on. They think they know what's best for everybody and will try to impose thier views on other people. It's sad this is this forum has come to but it has.

I will continue to use the cartridge as I see fit, no matter what those with no real experience think about it. It kills deer dead and that's all I ever expected of it.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
Great post Terry.

I use my 22-250's because of the rifles, my favorite is a Remington LVSF. To put in simple terms, it is a hunting rifle and when I pull the trigger critters die. Most everyone has one of those rifles, so you can relate.

I know that my 22-250 will work unequivocally.. as long as I do my part.

Anyone want to bet against me.

Kabluewy,
My two experiences with the 338 and deer is anecdotal at best. Those two examples were both with premium bullets. Through the ribs on actively rutting mature whitetails. Left very good blood trails, the deer just did not know they were dead.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Great post!

It's funny, the same can be said for you .223 guys badmouthing bowhunting!

Ya know, pass up shots with the wrong angle, properly "place" the shot, limit the range and really hunt. In fact the .223 is a lot like a bow and arrow!

Since the .223 would definitely qualify as a primitive weapon for big game, I think (and would be fine with) it should have its own license stratification separated from other rifles.

Ah yes, a special .223 big game season!

I hunt with a bow for big game during bow season; one that is more than adequate.

You .223 guys hunt with a "big game rifle" that is like hunting during a bow hunt with a willow branch strung with the leftover hemp in your back yard!

quote:

You .223 guys hunt with a "big game rifle" that is like hunting during a bow hunt with a willow branch strung with the leftover hemp in your back yard!

quote:

Some folks here seem to think this is a "debate" they can "win."

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Yea, you killed one, but how many have you guys crippled that you won't admit to?

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:

quote:

Some folks here seem to think this is a "debate" they can "win."

There is no debate...the great majority of hunters disagree with your choice. The debate isn't about caliber..its about best practice, respect for game and putting game down as fast as possible....DRT. For you in your special "223" spot, maybe that works. For the rest of us, we'll continue to resort to best practice.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Scott--Thanks. Well I do have .222. Yea 80 pounds and no antlers--I think no antlers scores zero on B&C. I wasn't even the shooter---an awful lot to flaunt and brag about as I've been accused of. Ok I did gut it while my nephew filled out his tag.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:

quote:

Some folks here seem to think this is a "debate" they can "win."

There is no debate...the great majority of hunters disagree with your choice. The debate isn't about caliber..its about best practice, respect for game and putting game down as fast as possible....DRT. For you in your special "223" spot, maybe that works. For the rest of us, we'll continue to resort to best practice.

It's not a debate, you're right about that. Experience trumps assumptions. I have as much respect for the game I hunt as anyone. You assume far too much and know far to little.

The "special spot" I refered to is about any area where I feel comfortable with the distance and conditions where I will encounter the game I hunt. I wouldn't take a .223 out in the middle of a beanfield for the same reason I wouldn't take a .30-30. Is that simple enough for you?

Who in the hell are you to determine "best practice" for me anyway? You have no idea how fast a deer dies after being hit solid with a .224 63gn TSX. If you did you probably wouldn't have made that ignorant statement. Maybe you should run for some public office in your area. You seem to know what's best for everybody. You'd probably be well suited for the job.

BTW, the post you're refering to is very simple to read and understand. There is no need to try to twist it into something it isn't.

I've never tried to sell anyone on the idea of using this cartridge on any game they hunt. I've used it with great success and I've only stated my experience with it. With your knowledge base and possibly your skill level, it might not be the best choice for you. If you need a crutch, by all means use one! An animal with a large hole in his gut will probably die faster than an animal with a smaller one.

Terry

quote:

This entire thread makes it clear why we need governmental interference in determining the calibers needed for big game hunting in America.