The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development trim off those belts!!!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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One of Us |
o.k. almost every belted case that has a moderate shoulder does not need the belt and some actualy have belts but headspace off the shoulder anyway! (in once fired chamber formed brass) being that carts like the 10.75x68 works and exists with its .013 ish shoulder why not has more wildcatters trimmed the belts off of carts that dont need them? 300, 338 win mag 7 mag 300 and 375 h+h 375 and 416 taylor 416 rem 500 a2 and many more... trim off the belts, grind off the belt on the reamer, use regular dies and saami loads and you can probably get away with the reg. brass and barrel stamp. its not for everyone but for those who hate belts and want to be diff. this can be a neet project. just add boom stick to the end of the name like ackley improved but boom stick improved so 300 win mag b.s.i.  any takers??? furthermore since the rim is going to be bigger than the casehead (e.g. 532 rim and 512 body for the win mags) they will act as rimmed carts and be usable in the ever increasing popular single shots like the t.c. encore and ruger # 1's...turn yer ruger # 1 into a rimmed 338 win mag b.s.i. ect... hmmmm... 358 norma mag b.s.i. yummmm... 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | ||
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Back in the mid 90's, a friend and I colaborated on a longrange varmint cartridge. It started with a 7mm Rem. Mag case blown out, with a 35 degree shoulder, necked to 6mm. We decided to eliminate the belt, for your above stated reasons. We were trying to get 3600 fps with a 105 VLD bullet. We learned 2 things, Berger 105's come apart at velocities over 3500 fps and primer pockets, on cases with the belts turned off, become very loose after a couple of firings. | |||
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i guess your chamber was not tight enough or you were just pushing it too hard but for the cases that are sound without the belt i think it is a go. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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| one of us |
Well all I can say to that is Good Luck. To my way of thinking, trimming the belts off and then having to reduce my loads, defeats the purpose of having a magnum cartridge in the first place. | |||
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i dont see that trimming the belt off would have adverse affects. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I bet someone somewhere has made every common caliber for the short (350/6.5 Rem magnum case), medium (7mm Rem & 300 Win magnum) and full length (300/375 H&H) belted magnum case, taking off the belt in a lathe. Belts don't add anything to a cartridge that doesn't need them for headspacing, but taking them off in a lathe is a big effort so they usually stay on. An available case without the belt makes these wildcats much easier. If the new Ruger 375 case is really a magnum without a belt, I think you will see lots of new popular wildcat magnums without the belt that duplicate old unpopular wildcats that had the belt removed. | |||
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Moderator |
Having debelted at least 100 375 H&H cases to make decent 350 Rigby brass, I will wholeheartedly agree that there are alot of other things I'd rather be doing with my time!!! The "benefits" of no belt are you need to build a custom magazine to properly stack the oddball shaped brass, and, what else??? If you don't like belts, get some Remington Ultramag brass and use it, it's bigger still and no belt. Having worked with several belted rounds, I can assure you that the belt doesn't cause any problems, and it is never a reason for me to choose a chambering or not. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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since I am belt agnostic, i'll mention. belts are FAR easier to get to feed, in a turnbolt, magazine rifle, than rimmed rounds... jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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o.k. the best b.s. improved ("boom stick improved" belt turned off carts ) are weatherby based so there is no "rim" 378 wetherby 416 wetherby 460 wetherby 500 a2 i think the 500 a2 b.s.i. might find a home in a mrc p.h. action. the good news is if i tire of it i can just re ream and put the belt back on   577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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come on...does this "need" a belt??? a cheap 500 mbogo 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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el jeffe... yes rich just did this and it is a diff road to the same result. a2bsi benefits... no belt no brass forming (just trim belts) no headstamp issues saami loads can use cheaper plentiful 460 wby brass if needed if you want to go back to a2 just ream in a belt in a pinch you could buy factory ammo and file off belt (bring a nail file to yer safari  )you dont have to explain to the p.h. about a new wildcat...its just an a2 with no belt i'll think of more soon jeffe...yooz gotta admit it is easier than the ke but his is a good original and i like it.  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I don't have anything better to do than take belts off of your brass you need to get a life. | |||
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 Boom stick ,after you do it let us know all the details and how it turns out. Sounds like a great project and learning experience? rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Yea the 460 weatherby had the goofy shoulder and a belt, but back in the day a lot of die hards kept the 416 Rigby alive by turning off the belt, to be able to keep shooting. About the only reason to do this would be to make 9.3 x 64 cases. As a just to do because its something to do, well have a blast. I myself will shoot the 338 Winchester and 7mm Remingtion as is. | |||
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this is me escaping my life...  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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yeah, i am not a fan of the double radious shoulders... they can be fireformed out like the a2 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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One of Us |
Boom, My first wildcat, as a young man, was a .308NormaMag with the belt turned off, and shortened to the same length of body and neck as the .30-06. I called it the .300 Fatso. The first 20 was a lot of fun. I looked at it, and found out, that it did not do anything the .308Norma did not do better. Later on I have made my FGC's, which really does something other rounds does not do, giving mag. velocities without sacrifacing magazine capasity. So, they are really unique, but still a pain in the ass to make. After a while, really boring, to. I find myself shooting my 8x57 more and more. So go ahead and learn it the hard way. You sure will have fun for a while, but please understand the lack of entusiasm from us who have walked those roads before. The belts might be fugly, the other stories about them are just that - stories. Leave them on, and go shooting! Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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| Moderator |
Boomy, you know you are going in circles here, right? If you trim off the belt of the 416 or 460 weatherby, and get rid of the double radiused shoulder, you are RIGHT back to 416 and 450 rigby
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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el jeffe...yes the others do not improve anything much but the a2 b.s.i. still has good merit i think. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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i hear you bent... but i still think the a2 improved and the 500 a.r. are still viable projects that have merrit and offer something desirable... 500 a.r. uses a std action in a handier rifle 500 a2 improved no belt no belt issues. the 375 ruger brass will solve the belt issues in a good way once brass comes out 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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| new member |
FWIW: I have made in the past, beltless 6.5 Rem mag, 30/338, 300Win mag. All worked well. Never experienced primer pocket/pressure problems. All where for prone, competition guns. Velocities where kept at 3000 to 3100 with 190's and 140's in 6.5. The 30/338 (can you say Newton?) got me into the Wimbleton shoot off twice. It is my opinion that, in most cases a belt is a waste of time. The Englishman who started it all should be dug up and slapped. Alan | |||
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   577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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"It is my opinion that, in most cases a belt is a waste of time. The Englishman who started it all should be dug up and slapped." Having met Alan Warner, I know he is a man of strong opinions and on this one, he and I agree!  "I ask, sir, what is the Militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them" - George Mason, co-author of the Second Amendment during the Virginia convention to ratify the Constitution | |||
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I am building basically, the 500 A2 with out a belt. I used a .450 Rigby reamer and opened the neck to accept .510 dia bullets. I rechambered my first attemt at a 50 cal wilcat. I had originally blown a 404 Jefferey out straight and tried to head space of the case mouth like a .30 Carbine on steroids. It didn't work very well so that is the reason for the next size up. Yes, I could have went with the A2 round but had a couple hundred Rigby cylndrical cases. | |||
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tboggus! awesome! do a search on the 500 mbogo! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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how much shoulder do you have??? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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TBoggus, check in the archives for my 510 KX project. I liked the 510 Wells Express, just did NOT want the hassle of belts. I had my reamer cut for the 510W minus the belt, and got the bonus of using 510WX dies, etc. Am still sorting out loads. Rich | |||
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What your supposed to do with belted cases is straighten them out and make real guns with them.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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| Moderator |
yep!! .475 is the limit for the rum cases, and i think .458 for the 404 cases... not that I would know  http://www.weaponsmith.com/AR-rounds1.html opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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el jeffe... which of the a.r's is the most efficient??? i am guessing the 416?  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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| Moderator |
Boomy, of the ARs, you really should compare to the other ones of that caliber... the 416 is pretty good,beats the rem and rigby on powder-to-velocity. the 458 stands pretty good,but shines at upper 20% of loading... but to get a .475 bullet to go 2400fps, this is THE most effecient jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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p.s. have you considered shooting the 470 275 gr speer gold dot's??? http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=259723 prarie doggs be verrrrrry afraid 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Not off my 264 Rem Mag I won`t!! LOL. Aloha, Mark When the fear of death is no longer a concern----the Rules of War change!! | |||
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Boomy, those .275grainers are shooter than my attention span!!! I need to load up them barnes flying jackets you sent me and shoot the snot out of em! jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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i am sooooooo curious to see how fast they will fly. the 470 a.r. is the most vesitile cart for std mags...275 gr pistol bullets for varnmiting, 500 gr solids for pesky pacyderms 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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One of Us |
If a belt ever gave me the slightest bit of trouble it would head me into beltless rounds, but they never have. When fireforming wildcats they make life easier to boot. I tend to use more than enough gun | |||
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| Moderator |
yeah, generally they do.. but a shoulder formed into the parent case from the dies makes THAT easier, too jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Whats next ? CRF or barrel twist? I tend to use more than enough gun | |||
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One of Us |
I can not imagine a 500 A-Square with out a belt and I used to have one .. The thing that makes the 550 wildcat magnum so appealling is the belt. It is simple like me and humongous ,I,m not humoungous.. Lets see ,if I get a thousand dollar lathe and a 20 dollar cutter and a shop to put it all in ,and electricity . And the expensive brass to start with. or you could just start with the 8x68 /9.3x64 B / 4 naught 4 . Short Rum, Tall RUM ,WSM, 375 Ruger . 416 Rigby. Gibbs oh Gibbs ,Gibbs . Or the A-Square belt less brass . You should be able to make about any round you could wish for.. However , If you want a 416 and you happen to have a wad of 375, or 8 mm rem mag . Or 340 Whby .Or 458 lott, Etc. and you have a nice inexpensive set of Lee dies with the eliptical expander button . A little lube and there ya have er . 416 rem mags.Don,t even have to trim them. A little spin with the propane torch and you can saftly go to shooting bears and hippo with some thing that says one thing but does another.. Very cost affective and all thanks to the belt.. Have fun .. gumboot out..I,m very impressed kaboom stick.. But waterrat has a good point. .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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