The Accurate Reloading Forums
trim off those belts!!!
27 August 2006, 12:26
boom sticktrim off those belts!!!
o.k. almost every belted case that has a moderate shoulder does not need the belt and some actualy have belts but headspace off the shoulder anyway! (in once fired chamber formed brass) being that carts like the 10.75x68 works and exists with its .013 ish shoulder why not has more wildcatters trimmed the belts off of carts that dont need them?
300, 338 win mag
7 mag
300 and 375 h+h
375 and 416 taylor
416 rem
500 a2
and many more...
trim off the belts, grind off the belt on the reamer, use regular dies and saami loads and you can probably get away with the reg. brass and barrel stamp.
its not for everyone but for those who hate belts and want to be diff. this can be a neet project.
just add boom stick to the end of the name like ackley improved but boom stick improved so 300 win mag b.s.i.
any takers???
furthermore since the rim is going to be bigger than the casehead (e.g. 532 rim and 512 body for the win mags) they will act as rimmed carts and be usable in the ever increasing popular single shots like the t.c. encore and ruger # 1's...turn yer ruger # 1 into a rimmed 338 win mag b.s.i. ect...
hmmmm... 358 norma mag b.s.i. yummmm...
27 August 2006, 14:36
eddieharrenBack in the mid 90's, a friend and I colaborated on a longrange varmint cartridge. It started with a 7mm Rem. Mag case blown out, with a 35 degree shoulder, necked to 6mm. We decided to eliminate the belt, for your above stated reasons. We were trying to get 3600 fps with a 105 VLD bullet. We learned 2 things, Berger 105's come apart at velocities over 3500 fps and primer pockets, on cases with the belts turned off, become very loose after a couple of firings.
27 August 2006, 20:26
boom sticki guess your chamber was not tight enough or you were just pushing it too hard but for the cases that are sound without the belt i think it is a go.
29 August 2006, 15:25
eddieharrenWell all I can say to that is Good Luck. To my way of thinking, trimming the belts off and then having to reduce my loads, defeats the purpose of having a magnum cartridge in the first place.
30 August 2006, 09:13
boom sticki dont see that trimming the belt off would have adverse affects.
30 August 2006, 11:07
CMcDermottI bet someone somewhere has made every common caliber for the short (350/6.5 Rem magnum case), medium (7mm Rem & 300 Win magnum) and full length (300/375 H&H) belted magnum case, taking off the belt in a lathe. Belts don't add anything to a cartridge that doesn't need them for headspacing, but taking them off in a lathe is a big effort so they usually stay on. An available case without the belt makes these wildcats much easier. If the new Ruger 375 case is really a magnum without a belt, I think you will see lots of new popular wildcat magnums without the belt that duplicate old unpopular wildcats that had the belt removed.
30 August 2006, 21:57
Paul HHaving debelted at least 100 375 H&H cases to make decent 350 Rigby brass, I will wholeheartedly agree that there are alot of other things I'd rather be doing with my time!!!
The "benefits" of no belt are you need to build a custom magazine to properly stack the oddball shaped brass, and, what else???
If you don't like belts, get some Remington Ultramag brass and use it, it's bigger still and no belt.
Having worked with several belted rounds, I can assure you that the belt doesn't cause any problems, and it is never a reason for me to choose a chambering or not.
__________________________________________________
The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time.
30 August 2006, 22:01
jeffeossosince I am belt agnostic, i'll mention.
belts are FAR easier to get to feed, in a turnbolt, magazine rifle, than rimmed rounds...
jeffe
31 August 2006, 07:02
boom sticko.k. the best b.s. improved ("boom stick improved" belt turned off carts ) are weatherby based so there is no "rim"
378 wetherby
416 wetherby
460 wetherby
500 a2
i think the 500 a2 b.s.i. might find a home in a mrc p.h. action.
the good news is if i tire of it i can just re ream and put the belt back on
31 August 2006, 10:05
boom stick
come on...does this "need" a belt???
a cheap 500 mbogo
31 August 2006, 16:26
jeffeossoquote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
416 wetherby ---- Otherwise known as the 416rigby w/goofy shoulder
460 wetherby ---- Otherwise known as the 450rigby w/goofy shoulder
500 a2 ---- Rich just did this
01 September 2006, 00:36
boom stickel jeffe...
yes rich just did this and it is a diff road to the same result.
a2bsi benefits...
no belt
no brass forming (just trim belts)
no headstamp issues
saami loads
can use cheaper plentiful 460 wby brass if needed
if you want to go back to a2 just ream in a belt
in a pinch you could buy factory ammo and file off belt (bring a nail file to yer safari
)
you dont have to explain to the p.h. about a new wildcat...its just an a2 with no belt
i'll think of more soon
jeffe...yooz gotta admit it is easier than the ke but his is a good original and i like it.
01 September 2006, 04:14
Jay JohnsonI don't have anything better to do than take belts off of your brass you need to get a life.
01 September 2006, 06:27
bartsche
Boom stick ,after you do it let us know all the details and how it turns out. Sounds like a great project and learning experience?
roger
Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..
01 September 2006, 07:21
George SemelYea the 460 weatherby had the goofy shoulder and a belt, but back in the day a lot of die hards kept the 416 Rigby alive by turning off the belt, to be able to keep shooting. About the only reason to do this would be to make 9.3 x 64 cases. As a just to do because its something to do, well have a blast. I myself will shoot the 338 Winchester and 7mm Remingtion as is.
01 September 2006, 10:30
boom stickquote:
Originally posted by Jay Johnson:
I don't have anything better to do than take belts off of your brass you need to get a life.
this is me escaping my life...
01 September 2006, 10:32
boom stickyeah, i am not a fan of the double radious shoulders...
they can be fireformed out like the a2
01 September 2006, 13:28
Bent FossdalBoom,
My first wildcat, as a young man, was a .308NormaMag with the belt turned off, and shortened to the same length of body and neck as the .30-06. I called it the .300 Fatso. The first 20 was a lot of fun. I looked at it, and found out, that it did not do anything the .308Norma did not do better.
Later on I have made my FGC's, which really does something other rounds does not do, giving mag. velocities without sacrifacing magazine capasity. So, they are really unique, but still a pain in the ass to make. After a while, really boring, to.
I find myself shooting my 8x57 more and more.
So go ahead and learn it the hard way. You sure will have fun for a while, but please understand the lack of entusiasm from us who have walked those roads before.
The belts might be fugly, the other stories about them are just that - stories.
Leave them on, and go shooting!
Bent Fossdal
Reiso
5685 Uggdal
Norway
01 September 2006, 17:14
jeffeossoquote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
yeah, i am not a fan of the double radious shoulders...
they can be fireformed out like the a2
Boomy,
you know you are going in circles here, right?
If you trim off the belt of the 416 or 460 weatherby, and get rid of the double radiused shoulder, you are RIGHT back to 416 and 450 rigby
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
416 wetherby ---- Otherwise known as the 416rigby w/goofy shoulder
460 wetherby ---- Otherwise known as the 450rigby w/goofy shoulder
500 a2 ---- Rich just did this
01 September 2006, 21:22
boom stickel jeffe...yes the others do not improve anything much but the a2 b.s.i. still has good merit i think.
01 September 2006, 21:47
boom stickquote:
Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Boom,
My first wildcat, as a young man, was a .308NormaMag with the belt turned off, and shortened to the same length of body and neck as the .30-06. I called it the .300 Fatso. The first 20 was a lot of fun. I looked at it, and found out, that it did not do anything the .308Norma did not do better.
Later on I have made my FGC's, which really does something other rounds does not do, giving mag. velocities without sacrifacing magazine capasity. So, they are really unique, but still a pain in the ass to make. After a while, really boring, to.
I find myself shooting my 8x57 more and more.
So go ahead and learn it the hard way. You sure will have fun for a while, but please understand the lack of entusiasm from us who have walked those roads before.
The belts might be fugly, the other stories about them are just that - stories.
Leave them on, and go shooting!
i hear you bent...
but i still think the a2 improved and the 500 a.r. are still viable projects that have merrit and offer something desirable...
500 a.r. uses a std action in a handier rifle
500 a2 improved no belt no belt issues.
the 375 ruger brass will solve the belt issues in a good way once brass comes out
06 September 2006, 15:55
Alan WarnerFWIW:
I have made in the past, beltless 6.5 Rem mag, 30/338, 300Win mag. All worked well. Never experienced primer pocket/pressure problems. All where for prone, competition guns. Velocities where kept at 3000 to 3100 with 190's and 140's in 6.5.
The 30/338 (can you say Newton?) got me into the Wimbleton shoot off twice.
It is my opinion that, in most cases a belt is a waste of time. The Englishman who started it all should be dug up and slapped.
Alan
08 September 2006, 00:17
Masterifleman"It is my opinion that, in most cases a belt is a waste of time. The Englishman who started it all should be dug up and slapped."
Having met Alan Warner, I know he is a man of strong opinions and on this one, he and I agree!
"I ask, sir, what is the Militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them" - George Mason, co-author of the Second Amendment during the Virginia convention to ratify the Constitution
21 November 2006, 07:36
TBoggusI am building basically, the 500 A2 with out a belt. I used a .450 Rigby reamer and opened the neck to accept .510 dia bullets. I rechambered my first attemt at a 50 cal wilcat. I had originally blown a 404 Jefferey out straight and tried to head space of the case mouth like a .30 Carbine on steroids. It didn't work very well so that is the reason for the next size up. Yes, I could have went with the A2 round but had a couple hundred Rigby cylndrical cases.
21 November 2006, 09:30
boom sticktboggus! awesome!
do a search on the 500 mbogo!
21 November 2006, 21:26
boom stickhow much shoulder do you have???
21 November 2006, 22:16
Idaho SharpshooterTBoggus,
check in the archives for my 510 KX project. I liked the 510 Wells Express, just did NOT want the hassle of belts.
I had my reamer cut for the 510W minus the belt, and got the bonus of using 510WX dies, etc. Am still sorting out loads.
Rich
22 November 2006, 21:39
GrandpasezWhat your supposed to do with belted cases
is straighten them out and make real
guns with them.Ed
MZEE WA SIKU
22 November 2006, 22:59
jeffeossoquote:
Originally posted by TBoggus:
I had originally blown a 404 Jefferey out straight and tried to head space of the case mouth like a .30 Carbine on steroids. It didn't work very well
yep!! .475 is the limit for the rum cases, and i think .458 for the 404 cases...
not that I would know
http://www.weaponsmith.com/AR-rounds1.html22 November 2006, 23:08
boom stickel jeffe...
which of the a.r's is the most efficient???
i am guessing the 416?
23 November 2006, 03:07
jeffeossoBoomy,
of the ARs, you really should compare to the other ones of that caliber... the 416 is pretty good,beats the rem and rigby on powder-to-velocity. the 458 stands pretty good,but shines at upper 20% of loading... but to get a .475 bullet to go 2400fps, this is THE most effecient
jeffe
23 November 2006, 03:24
boom stickp.s. have you considered shooting the 470 275 gr speer gold dot's???
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=259723prarie doggs be verrrrrry afraid
23 November 2006, 05:36
BohicaNot off my 264 Rem Mag I won`t!! LOL.
Aloha, Mark
When the fear of death is no longer a concern----the Rules of War change!!
23 November 2006, 05:49
jeffeossoBoomy,
those .275grainers are shooter than my attention span!!!
I need to load up them barnes flying jackets you sent me and shoot the snot out of em!
jeffe
23 November 2006, 06:00
boom sticki am sooooooo curious to see how fast they will fly. the 470 a.r. is the most vesitile cart for std mags...275 gr pistol bullets for varnmiting, 500 gr solids for pesky pacyderms
23 November 2006, 06:51
waterratIf a belt ever gave me the slightest bit of trouble it would head me into beltless rounds, but they never have. When fireforming wildcats they make life easier to boot.
I tend to use more than enough gun
23 November 2006, 06:56
jeffeossoyeah, generally they do..
but a shoulder formed into the parent case from the dies makes THAT easier, too
jeffe
23 November 2006, 11:44
waterratWhats next ? CRF or barrel twist?
I tend to use more than enough gun
23 November 2006, 14:11
gumboot458I can not imagine a 500 A-Square with out a belt and I used to have one .. The thing that makes the 550 wildcat magnum so appealling is the belt. It is simple like me and humongous ,I,m not humoungous.. Lets see ,if I get a thousand dollar lathe and a 20 dollar cutter and a shop to put it all in ,and electricity . And the expensive brass to start with. or you could just start with the 8x68 /9.3x64 B / 4 naught 4 . Short Rum, Tall RUM ,WSM, 375 Ruger . 416 Rigby. Gibbs oh Gibbs ,Gibbs . Or the A-Square belt less brass . You should be able to make about any round you could wish for.. However , If you want a 416 and you happen to have a wad of 375, or 8 mm rem mag . Or 340 Whby .Or 458 lott, Etc. and you have a nice inexpensive set of Lee dies with the eliptical expander button . A little lube and there ya have er . 416 rem mags.Don,t even have to trim them. A little spin with the propane torch and you can saftly go to shooting bears and hippo with some thing that says one thing but does another.. Very cost affective and all thanks to the belt.. Have fun .. gumboot out..I,m very impressed kaboom stick.. But waterrat has a good point.
.If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined ....
