In context of this thread here`s a worthwhile read......

USA : USA: Tips provided on being an ‘ethical hunter’
on 2008/7/23 9:08:19 (5 reads)

From National Shooting Sports Foundation

“Hunting is as old as mankind and new as tomorrow. We will continue to hunt for as long as we honor the game, shoulder our fair burden of responsibility for the natural world and require more of ourselves than others require of us.†— National Shooting Sports Foundation

Our prehistoric ancestors were hunters. To them, animals were as sacred as life itself. A good hunt assured survival.

Paleolithic cave paintings discovered in Europe expressed early man’s reverence and gratitude for the animals that sustained life. It is believed that this animal art symbolized assurance of the success of the hunt.

The famous Lascaux caves in southern France are a sanctuary of paintings that have endured for more than 17,000 years. These ancient cave paintings depict the vital grace of deer, bulls, horses and the figures of our ancestral hunters relying on intelligence and tools of stone, wood and bone to conquer the animals they revered. This ancient art tells the story of how cooperating in the hunt helped to shape our basic societies.

Back then, hunters and the game they sought were inseparable. Human existence and hunting were one. Today, few of us hunt to survive. As modern hunters, our role is to ensure the survival of wildlife.

We have properly assumed responsibility for our natural heritage and strive to practice an ethical standard similar to that of our ancestors.

Our cooperative efforts are evident in a host of organizations that benefit wildlife. The license fees and taxes hunters pay contribute to a significant portion of the nation’s conservation funding — from habitat restoration to research.

Though our tools are more efficient than those of our ancestors, as ethical hunters, we avoid the use of technology that would place the game we hunt at an unfair disadvantage.

We abide by ethical standards to preserve the challenge of the hunt.

We honor the majesty of wildlife and wilderness and respect the game we take.

We are not wasteful.

We understand the difference between right and wrong and behave accordingly because we appreciate the opportunity and privilege to encourage and preserve the continuation of our ancient role as hunters.

-- Landowner relations

Hunting on someone else’s land is a privilege, not a right. The ethical hunter always asks for permission, follows the owner’s wishes and leaves the property as it was found.

Expressing thanks for the owner’s hospitality, maybe with a gift from the game bag, is a common courtesy that can go a long way toward securing land access again and establishing good hunter-landowner relations in the future.

-- Know game

Understanding wildlife behavior is crucial to hunting success and adds immeasurably to respecting the hunt even when no game is taken. When skill and tireless determination result in the opportunity to shoot, the ethical hunter never takes more game than can be used. If they can, ethical hunters use well-trained dogs to help find downed game.

Properly field dressing and cleaning game assures that game is never wasted. Skill, patience and respect enhance the total hunting experience.

-- Preparedness

Hunting well is synonymous with good hunting. Ethical hunters practice their shooting skills, prepare themselves for the physical demands of the hunt, review the rules of firearm safety, select equipment equal to the dignity of the game and maintain their firearms properly to assure functional reliability. They also review wildlife identification and behavior often.

-- Companions

Ethical hunters choose their hunting companions with care. They must share a commitment to responsible behavior and be bound by mutual consideration. It is important that they share a willingness to sacrifice selfish interests and lend a helping hand in times of difficulty. With good companions, there are no bad days afield.

-- Non-hunters

Non-hunters are critically important to the future of hunting. Most non-hunters are tolerant, but will be less so if forced to confront displays of dead game or see people in hunting clothes behaving in disrespectful ways. Ethical hunters are defined by their own sense of respect, honor, safety and fairness. Hunters who behave irresponsibly pose a greater threat to the future of hunting than any anti-hunting group. Bad impressions are difficult to change.

-- The Hunter’s Law

Two types of law govern the ethical hunter’s actions. One is written — the other is not. One is governmentally enforced — the second is based on morality. Both types of law apply with equal force to all hunters.

The amount of game taken, for example, is limited by formal regulation, as well as by self-restraint. Those who break the written law by poaching must be reported. Those who break the unwritten law by shooting at excessively long range, using inadequate equipment or neglecting to prepare themselves for the hunt must be corrected.

-- Those who ignore the law are not hunters

If we can act when alone as though a crowd were watching, we will be. If we can cherish each hunting day without regard for its result, we will be. If we can calculate our hunting achievements in terms of memories earned instead of shots fired, our days afield will be stronger. Happier. Richer.

(The National Shooting Sports Foundation, NSSF, is the trade association for the firearms, hunting and recreational shooting industry. Find out more about how NSSF supports programs designed to ensure the future of hunting and the hunter and conservation at http://www.nssf.org/.)

http://www.fayettetribune.com/sports/local_story_204140...tml?keyword=topstory

Gryphon1, that's wicked. Sums it up nicely. Cheers mate.

Well quoted Gryphon.

There is a huge difference between hunting in NZ and "trophy collecting".

I was really amazed to see the "trophy photo" with the chopper in the background! Something I have been challenging the "chopper shooters" to do with their "trophy photos" for years. Or with the high fence right behind.

99.9% are way too embarrassed to pose with the chopper behind and instead pose the animal with a lovely free range backdrop.

good on ya weathered get stuck into them

its about time someone put theses "trophy collecters" were put in there place along with these scum bag guilds braeking all the rules

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:There is a huge difference between hunting in NZ and "trophy collecting".

there sure bloody is mate most of them couldn't hunt there way out of a paper bag


.

I feel I must address the attack on Weathered for his suppossed 'intolerance' and 'fanatism' -

Put it this way, if this was a post about hunting a trophy whitetail in the USA, and the animal was shot at night with a spotlight and a .22LR - and photograhped with them in teh background - I really expect that you guys would have mentioned something. I think you might of.

Weathered explained that the activity posted about is not only ethically reprehensable, but also is plainly illegal.
If he has used strong language, then I ask you how else would you describe such things?

And I would have thought that the guy that posted about the immoral and illegal activity would have been asked to leave before the man who was first to point the error of his ways. Does that make a lot of sense to you?

Damn, I just foung this string and a gentleman posts about his enjoyable hunt and all the NZ greenies crawl out from under their jealous rocks. Thank you highlander for an enjoyable visit but after reading all this crap from your fellow countrymen I will gladly stay away from NZ and spend my USD (which you (not highlander) don't want) in Africa. Thanks but No Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
all the NZ greenies crawl out from under their jealous rocks.

Try reading those messages again, carefully this time. This has nothing to do with anyone being a greenie, nor with jealousy. We have the opportunity to behave as you do, but we choose not to.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I will gladly stay away from NZ and spend my USD in Africa.

That sounds like an excellent outcome for everyone if that's the way you feel

I seem to find most of you are Greenies, unless you are dealing with the foreign hunters. Good Bye!

It seems like "weathered's" reports and condemnations have upset many people on this site.I can understand how some could have felt their trophy's are now sullied and their experiance of our wonderfull country has been changed.

The facts remain the same.The hunt was illeagle.
Shooting from an aircraft on public land is against the law.Kudude was unaware of that so,he's likey going to be taking it up with the outfitter and with luck getting his money back.

His choice to shoot an animal out of a Heli was one that he made.I'm sure he didn't want to go all the way to NZ and come home without his Thar.He made the choice as he thought it was leagle and it sounds like having those horns on the wall mean more to him than hunting does.

At the end of the day,the guides are in it for the money.The more sucessful hunters they see every year,the more money that make.Unhappy clients mean less referals and less profit.

Its a shame that more overseas people don't take up the opportunity to hunt NZ for free.I took a couple I met at the Bakery in Wanaka for a Thar hunt for the cost of a tank of Diesel, as we drove the 15km in and walked the rest.Staying in tents and out the next day.Cost them about $50USD equivalant.They couldn't take the horns back to Idaho,but the experiance will last a lifetime.

NEW ZEALAND: "real hunting for real hunters"

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I seem to find most of you are Greenies, unless you are dealing with the foreign hunters. Good Bye!

Now that is a first ... Greenie ? oh dear ... oh deary me.

In my posts I have used the words illegal activity and poacher to describe behaviour by a forum member hunting public land in New Zealand when they asked other forum members in their own post if "they got the New Zealand hunting ethos right"". These terms describe the activities of this and other forum members who choose to hunt in this manner precisely.

But greenie ! oh goodness me you have made my day. I hope all of you who are so inclined to describe NZ hunters as such all stay away from New Zealand public land unless you can hunt on foot.
Some stats for you gentlemen, in NZ we have maybe 70 odd registered NZPHGA guides and 200-220 SCI NZ members. There are over 360,000 registered gun owners, in New Zealand the overwhelming reason for gun ownership here is hunting. New Zealand Deerstalkers Association disqualify trophies and expel members who employ helicopter hunting as described here; they number 4000 to 5000 active members.

DOJ Your attack against my position on heli-hunting which is also the position of the NZDA the largest organised hunters group in New Zealand validates my reason for posting on this forum as I have .... thank you
Collectively the forum members who might hunt NZ in the manner posted and the above group of SCI and guides all amount to nothing. Your money contributes nothing .... not one cent to New Zealand public land hunting. I would not want it any other way incidentally.
Answer me this; Why would New Zealand hunters sit back and allow our public land to become a helicopter safari park for tourists ?
Why would we want to sell our heritage. All of you were welcome to hunt public land on foot like the rest of us; but no that wasn't good enough for some of you was it ?
Why should I have to read a hunting post like Kududes without comment ?
If my crime is bad manners take away my birthday

Got to go pack my crampons and ice axe to hunt chamois this weekend


Edit to add: I hope like hell that Kudude goes back to his guide and outfitter and gets his money back, that or another free hunt on foot.

Edit further: It is easy to check out the taxidermists, guides know who is doing which animals for who.
A conservative estimate by NZ guides I talk with is that 80% of the public land guided tahr and chamois trophies exported under MAF certs of origin are taken by illegal helicopter hunts.

The implication supported by the responses from forum members here is that a lot more people than will admit it have taken their trophies illegally on public land in New Zealand.


.

Maybe I don't understand the term "greenie", perhaps Die Ou Jagter might like to enlighten us. This is from his website (Have I got the right guy - that's where DOJ's link goes?):

quote:

In his free time Ed is an avid hunter and shooter. He is also active in Ducks Unlimited, NRA Golden Eagles, The Rocky Mt. Elk Foundation, The Ruffed Grouse Society, The Wild Turkey Federation, and many other conservation groups

Perhaps greenies and conservationists are different things? It seems that on the one hand DOJ pays homage to game management in the USA and uses his affiliation to game management organisations as a badge of honour, but labels New Zealanders as "greenies" in an attempt at disparagement when we attempt to manage our own game resources. You can't have it both ways.

DOJ, you have simply thrown a tantrum because we fail to applaud you and others who want accolades for coming here and undertaking illegal and inethical behaviour. I hope it made you feel better. Your patronising approach (you guys should be grateful for my dollars for ignoring me breaking the law and ruining your hunting experiences) will only serve to steel resolve against this type of behaviour.

Dei Au Jagter or whoever plainly approves of shooting from a chopper and breaking the law to shoot immature animals.
I hope they dont mention the war when he goes to Africa.
I can be a real 'greeny' if it means doing a lot of hunting....

I dont get the attitude of some of the American supporters on this thread - do they also approve of 'jacklighting' deer out of season and so forth?

Is it okay to break the law and suspend your ethics - as long as you dont do it in America?

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Damn, I just foung this string and a gentleman posts about his enjoyable hunt and all the NZ greenies crawl out from under their jealous rocks. Thank you highlander for an enjoyable visit but after reading all this crap from your fellow countrymen I will gladly stay away from NZ and spend my USD (which you (not highlander) don't want) in Africa. Thanks but No Thanks.

You stay away then ace its your choice... Now you seem to be advocating the illegal and oh so easy wealthy fat mans way of collecting something that often takes an ice axe and crampons to get amongst....real hunters,yes REAL hunters dont need choppers to obtain REAL game....get it?

I don't mind being labelled a "'greenie'' if it means defending the laws of MY country against the rapacious ativities of visiting carpetbaggers.
Kududes post mentioned that eight parties were to hunt that day from the machine. I have nothing but contempt for those purporting to be a hunter,collecting game trophys in this manner.
There is no pride in downing an animal this way and it just doesn't qualify as fair chase.
How such people can then have the animal scored for bragging rights is beyond me.
Thats as polite as I can make it.I'm angry.
I noticed in a store window in Oregan USA last year, a sign offering $10,000 reward for information leading to the apprehension of persons unknown who shot a Bighorn Sheep illegally.
Is it to be one law for you guys and anything goes for the rest of the world?

Maybe we should step back and see how this can happen, when you think about it its almost understandable...

The US hunter knows about the chopper shooting for venisen recovery. They hear stories about the deer cullers over here shooting thousands of animals...they get told there are no game laws, no seasons for big game, and no restrictions...they get told you can do anything you want. They get told the government drops tons of 1080 poison from choppers to kill the same animals.

Then they get told by their guide that shooting this way is normal NZ hunting behaviour. When you put that alongside the other activities mentioned above, well, its perfectly believable isnt it given that these activities are so beyond the foreign hunters understanding as well?
Well why wouldnt you go along for the ride?

Ive been thinking about this thread for a bit. WE're our own worst enemy, or actually the government wild animal policeys have created this culture of waste and slaughter; how can we censure an American hunter who comes along like this?
You know the Kudude wasnt shy about it was he? He posted a photo with the helicopter in the background. He mentioned the pilot by name.

WE have a hunting culture where its alright toshoot animals and just take a backsteak, where hunters are measured by how many they shot on a trip....who remembers Whereami's post of a NZ huntign trip with all the deck of a hut layed out with tails? He got nothing but congratulations.

Sure its illegal. But I think we're crying over spilt milk when we start taking someone like this to task over ethics...maybe enlightened individuals, but the NZ hunting culture overall is no shining example.
Weathers quoted from Ortega and a Ted Kerosote book somewhere above....I reckon we have a cheek to mention those guys in the same breath with the NZ hunting scene overall, both commercial and recreational.

illgal it may have been, but the activity was more Kiwi style slaughter than it was American,
are we getting stuck into this man becasue he gave up his ethics too easily for our liking when we're only just starting to learn what they are when it comes to game animals and hunting?
He at least expressed reservations. THats more than Ive ever heard from most Kiwi hunters to be perfectly honest.
Maybe its the money. If he hadnt of paid so much for it and was just invited along for a joy ride with a pilot mate and he got these animals, I think the attitude would be quite subtly different. It's possible.
Isnt it mad? These animals were worth $30, 000 to this man and we're getting into him becasue he didnt climb the mountain to shoot them, when they are not worth anything to us.

Weathered will be out culling tahr nannies by the truckload next week, and our friend Bon Ton has probably killed more animals as a proffessional hunter than the whole of the rest of the AR boards put together. (And thats not an exageration probably.)

How can you expect foreigners to understand this?

Fair enough Carlsen, what you say about me may be true. However the two things that piss me off about this matter are

1 Hunters without bags of money save all year for an annual trip to these areas, to my way of thinking it is totally unfair that trophy animals get picked off in front of them by fee paying collectors using illegal means. I will concede that our own Dept of Conservation and the quick buck making guides are the root cause of the problem.
2However the clients don't seem to mind being photographed with their kill or reefing off about it's SCI score, despite knowing the animal wasn't taken under the rules of fair chase.

And Carlsen,back in the days when Guides were licensed by the Govt, [pre Acc] my partner and I had one of the three licences at that time granted. All the Americans I met during that time impressed me with their respect for the game they were seeking, and their conservation ethics,and as you well know the situation in NZ was pretty grim back then. Nowadays I notice in NZ mags and on internet forums a much healthier appreciation of the game we have at our doorstep. The Govt is beginning to listen to hunters and I believe that in time the situation will change and hunting laws will be implemented.

Recreational activity is recognised under the conservation act, New Zealanders have a right protected under law to recreate in peace.
The conditions of a WARO concession and the legislation in the relevant national parks and animal control acts are designed to protect our right to recreate in peace and quiet not to encode sportmanship in hunting activities on public land.
Hunting is a valid recreational activity recognised by the conservation act and therefore you are (supposedly) protected from noisy helicopters ruining your recreational hunting, tramping or climbing.


I addressed the ethics of hunting they are important and central to the definition of sportsman and hunter the two are not always the same.

No-one who comes to New Zealand and takes a trophy says look at the pest I shot ...

You can't have it both ways you either respect the animals you chase and accept that there are times when you won't get what you want .. or you get what you want by any means possible.

Wounded bull tahr dogged by chopper and shot in cave


.

Yes I shoot a lot of tahr, it is culling no more no less. Ironically we take only nannies so that the bulls are left for who ?

I know one outfitter in NZ and he offers free range sporting hunts as well as the 'canned' sort of hunts - smallish paddocks of farm raised stags and helicopter shooting (or spotting landing and shooting) of alpine game (if not also in the paddock).

Almost all of his US clients ask for the canned hunts.

South Africa got a bad reputation for canned hunting, yet it appears to be open slather in NZ (and to some extent in Aust) just so a huge stag can be shot in the minimum time of 2 to 5 day, usually less.

Weathered I said I wouldn't be back but your last post prompted me to do so. Oh yea when people ask about my NZ animials I do tell them that NZ considers these animials pests and would like to be rid of them, at least that is what I have been told and read. many of you posting here remind me of many americans that have the same feeling about foreign hunters comming here to hunt. It is all about money and I suspect a wee bit of envy.

Die Ou Jagter, I suspect your just trolling but i will adress your post anyway -

Its not about the money. The money is irrelevant. If you have been to NZ you will - or should know - that we can hunt any of our animals whenever we want to at only the cost of petrol and ammo. If I want to go and shoot a large bull I can do what i wish to find one and get one that will make me happy - it doesnt cost me money. Just sweat.
The idea that i would rather pay money in order to make it easier baffles me really. Whats the point, just buy a nice trophy from the taxidermist...
We dont see hunting the way you seem to, where - like many parts of teh world - you MUST have a lot of money to hunt the large game animals...grizzly in the north, anything in Canada because you need a guide by law....even elk tags cost a fortune as far as we are concerned...because we dont need to pay.

That permit that Weathered mentioned that Kudude needed to hunt on public land? The one he didnt have? Get this, it's free. Not a cent.

So, no, we are not jealous of someones money. As far I have experienced, people who have money quite often think others are jealous of them. But for hunting in New Zealand, your money is irrelevant. It cant buy anything that we would consider worthwile, or couldnt get ourselves for nothing. There is no status conferred in this place by having grand trophies other than what they are and the experiences they represent...it doesn't mean your richer than anyone else.
Somehow I dont expect you will be willing to understand this.

I might go elk hunting tomorrow.

I wouldnt be guraunteed a grand trophy of course - but by the very definition it wouldnt be one if it was.

And we are all fit enought to walk up that mountain without a chopper anyways. We're Kiwi's.


I was going to finish it there on that annoyingly superior note, but its occured to me to describe the following;

Nearly all NZ'rs react the same way (becasue we do not have a paid guided hunting culture the way it has been traditionally accepted in the States) when we hear of the money that someone paid for a hunt like this one.
The reaction is quite often awed shock. Not that someone was rich enough to afford it, not that they were wealthy enough to spend so much on just a recreational trip, but rather - at the shocking lack of value for money they got out of it.
Think about that. You didnt get anywhere near what you could of, for the amount of money you paid to the sharks that run the 'safari' outfits in NZ.

For that money there would have been any number of Kiwi hunters who would have quite cheerfylly taken you out hunting and given you a fuller richer experience of the bush, the mountains and the animals. You could have hunted for three months or something, and taken representative trophies of all of our animals - if you were good enough as a hunter. With one of us along as a companion to point you in the right direction, show you the ropes. And you wouldnt have need to pay anyone anything. With a little research you could have done it alone.

So maybe the money has something to do with it, but its not envy. Frustration perhaps that tourists can be exploited in such away, or derisen that they would pay so much and not realise how little of worth they are getting.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Weathered I said I wouldn't be back but your last post prompted me to do so. Oh yea when people ask about my NZ animials I do tell them that NZ considers these animials pests and would like to be rid of them, at least that is what I have been told and read.

So where do you display your pest ? DOJ you say one thing about an animal but still treat it as a trophy, perhaps you should have shot your tahr in the Himalaya not NZ. Much better to brag about shooting a IUCN VU2A status animal than a pest in NZ.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
many of you posting here remind me of many americans that have the same feeling about foreign hunters comming here to hunt. It is all about money and I suspect a wee bit of envy.

And not about breaking laws that are supposed to allow NZers to go into our backcountry in peace and quiet without having put up with guys like you and your guides.

If I wanted to look for well off people to despise I would not have too far to look around here and I wouldn't have to bother with american tourists.

You might notice with all the ruckus not one heli guide has come on here .... not one ... doesn't that tell you something ?

DOJ Please try to keep your word and don't reply on this thread or if you do at least read the thread properly I like Carlsen suspect you are trolling

Well I just won't go away. I PM Carlsen and Weathered. I have been called a troll and a carpetbagger. When I posted my hunt here in 2006 I only got favorable replys from the Kiwis, but that was before the aforementioned Jonnies come latelys.

With that said if I don't post to this string it will be because I have chosen to do so not because of some posts telling me to leave. Hell if some one has posted here on AR over 2500 times he or she are not ones to shrink from confrontation. I try to not be confrontational but when some posters just ask for confrontation by insulting other posters and belittleing their posts it just requires my attention.

I am sure Saeed and the monitors will be understanding toward Weathered etc. as he knows with maturity will come restraint, nuff said. Have a good day mate!

Well, I just got insulted in a behind the scenes PM.
Thanks for coming back for that. You should actually stick around DOJ, it is unusual to see a man on a forum like this both defend illegal hunting practices and also demonstrate such an unrepentant lack of morals.

Kudude didnt know any better and is simply human - you clearly dont care.

However you got what you wanted which was a reaction. We will move on.

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
Kudude didnt know any better and is simply human - you clearly dont care.

I think actually kudude displayed the trophy photos accurately. Something 99.9% of the trophy photos don't do.

Carlsen, what was the insult - the word gas?

Back to the chopper. I asume you Kiwis when you decide to hunt the Tahr or Chamois you take your long bow and backpack and walk out the door of your house and walk to the area where you intend to hunt your prey. I am sure you would not use any modern conveniences such as motorized vehicle or recurve bow or compound and God forbid you would use a firearm, you know it wouldn't be the Kiwi way, eh.

I do care it just seems you folks can't decide what is what as highlander said. I come to you country and using a reputable outfitter I do my hunt as he suggests.

In the PM you said I could come and you would show me (guide) where to hunt. Gee I am comming half way around the world on the word of someone I don't know. I get to the airport and you are no were to be found. I mean you have no vested interest in me but I have invested in a round trip air fare etc. Why would I want to hunt with a reputable outfitter?

Come on now this all started with a good honest hunting report that actually complemented the NZ area for hunting and you and some of your buddies (I guess) turned it into a forum about your countries lack of law enforcement. Hell we were just visitors, but oh yea we americans should help you get your shit straight.

Oh well.

quote:

But for hunting in New Zealand, your money is irrelevant. It cant buy anything that we would consider worthwhile, or couldnt get ourselves for nothing. There is no status conferred in this place by having grand trophies other than what they are and the experiences they represent

Moderator, perhaps we should put this on the main page of Accurate Reloading Forum. I think these guys have it right! The question is: Do we?
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
When I posted my hunt here in 2006 I only got favorable replys from the Kiwis, but that was before the aforementioned Jonnies come latelys.

Because you had no trouble in 2006 does that validate this sort of hunting, you display a selective approach to whose opinions you want to listen to; is that what this AR forum is about ? a forum of poachers defending their illegal hunting techniques. I know this forum is better than that but you are giving it a bad name.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter: Well I just won't go away. I PM Carlsen and Weathered. I have been called a troll and a carpetbagger.

DOJ I have not even opened my PM 's. Trolling was used to describe a baiting technique as in "feeding the trolls". You should not worry we are here anyway. I would have thought it is pretty mild compared to "greenie" I encouraged you to read the thread carefully or don't post.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Hell if some one has posted here on AR over 2500 times he or she are not ones to shrink from confrontation. I try to not be confrontational but when some posters just ask for confrontation by insulting other posters and belittleing their posts it just requires my attention.

Illegal poaching and shooting from helicopters is something a forum like AR should be exposing not defending.

Whether you knew the law or not does not matter. You all should know the relevant sections of New Zealand law now. How else would you all have found this out ? look at the struggle to get some of you to accept

You broke the law in someone elses country

Weathered- you changed the last line in your last post, Why? .

It is another issue completely and I should not put it up here. I don't want to make the Americans madder than they already are.

DOJ - I find it ironic that you choose to use a Tahr as your avatar.

Welcome to the disfunctional AR forum family;

Anyone who posts anything about a longstanding member,i.e.some one with lots of posts ,turns this topic and all others into a PM attack,totally off topic.

This, for our NZ friends and others, is what American hunting is turning into;the pressure to perform has regulated even good people into trophy collectors.It is simply not good enough to go hunting for the experience.If you dont bring back a picture of a wall hanger,you must be a failure.Ethics be damned,everyone else got one,it's in the brochure!

Same applies to africa,would you shoot off the truck?I've been asked to,and declined.Some will,some won't.

Heck weathered,why stop now(having americans mad)LOL

How can anyone argue with what is clearly the truth,it boggles the mind.

One point to make;good info only can come if you have post totals,everyone knows that.....



and for those who keep track of such things,I just increased my posts by....one

quote:

How can anyone argue with what is clearly the truth,it boggles the mind.

No truer words spoken so far....excellent and a thread stopper for the chopper mob to STFU

DOG seems to be getting a bit hysterical...
(And BTW mate, you seem to have misread my PM as an invitation - I was just telling you stuff )

BON TON, I saw the second paragraph of your last post and I agree that with the lastest generation of hunters things seem to have been changing...perhaps it is becasue they grew up with the low period of animal numbers in the 1980's forming their hunting conciousness rather than previous generations who came of age with high animals numbers.
You tend to value something more when its hard to get and theres not so many.

DOJ has PMed me too - to tell me I'm envious. For the record, I'm not. Envy does not enter the picture. I CAN afford to hunt in the same manner as DOJ, Kudude and others have done, as can many Kiwi hunters. I CHOOSE not to do so because it would be meaningless. Oh yeah, it would also be illegal. Pretty simple really. DOJ, can put his head in the sand as long as he likes, but those two things won't change because of it.

Well said Carlsen Highway.

Look at the pests that I shot (in New Zealand)

they are only pests when the farmer doesn't want them or they are in national parks or conservation land, they are worth quite a bit of money and are farmed quite a lot in some areas

That one on the left looks a like a good trophy to be roasted in an SCI large size oven bag...

quote:

Originally posted by MeatHunta:
DOJ has PMed me too - to tell me I'm envious. For the record, I'm not. Envy does not enter the picture. I CAN afford to hunt in the same manner as DOJ, Kudude and others have done, as can many Kiwi hunters. I CHOOSE not to do so because it would be meaningless. Oh yeah, it would also be illegal. Pretty simple really. DOJ, can put his head in the sand as long as he likes, but those two things won't change because of it.

it really cracks me up when i see these clowns using the envy card

i agree its got sweet fuck all to do with envey
most of us could go out and BUY some trophys but where is the achivement in that

its like going into a whore house paying to nail some hot chick and then bragging to the world how hot she was

it means NOTHING in the REAL world


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Yeah ... I wonder what the trackers and camp boys in Africa would have to say about some of these tourists with guns. Pity those chaps don't have access to these sites. The PH's and guides know better than to say anything against a client. When recreational New Zealand hunters pop up on a thread commenting on trophy hunts in New Zealand this is the response.
You are right madness the humour of this thread is starting to grab me now.

Would one of you wealthy victims of jealosy please tell me the income threshold to meet before a jealous greenie comment can be elevated to the refined status of valued peer comment on AR forums ?




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On this note, since people are upset already maybe we should talk about the other animals available on these "hunts".

Lets look at the red stag. He was shot on a fenced property. I think 6000 acres was mentioned, which is plenty of room to go and find a stag in you would think...
But the thing is the stag wasnt wild. He grew up on a deer farm. He was fed well, and given hormones as well which create those odd looking masses of antler that they have. When he came of age he was trucked to the stock auctions possibly in Palmerston, which a friend of mine attended early this year. He was in the velvet so his head could judged by the buyers and he was sold to the safari park owners. He was carefully protected and handled lest he damage his antlers in the velvet and was taken in a stock truck and released into an area on the property mentioned.
In Fenruary/March of this year the roads were alive with stock trucks taking farmed 'trophy' stags to the hunting properties to be ready for the roar.
It wasnt just any area of the property though, he would have been released in his own part of it, where the guides could find him again.
All of them are docile and tame as a pet calf as they have been handled since birth.
In fact on one of these operations in the guides smoko room, they have photographs of all of the 'trophy' deer sellotaped to the fridge door so that the guides can get to recognise the animals. Some of them even have names!
This is essential because the last thing the outfitter wants to have is the client shooting a 'silver' stag when he wants to pay for a 'gold' one, and so the guides have to learn the animals so they dont screw up, otherwise its money down the drain.
If your guide or outfitter advertises that he can provide animals that may be gold or silver or wahtever - then you can be sure that what you are hunting are farmed animals and are no more wild than my wifes' lazy persian cat.
There are no such "world records" in the New zealand deer stalkers books coming off these properties.
A month or so before that animal was shot he was on a deer farm.
He was probably as bewildered as a troll without a carpetbag when they let him out of the truck into that property back in March.
If the client had the presence of mind to call to him, he would have probably walked over. Certainly an apple in the hand would have helped.
I am not joking or exaggerating - this is big busniess, a lot of money changes hands over these stags.