On July 3, 2008, Larry Quinn, my taxidermist and fellow SCI chapter member, and I flew from Tallahassee to New Zealand to hunt with Shane Quinn of Alpine Adventures. This was my first trip to New Zealand; my first time across the International Date Line; and my first experience hunting alpine animals.

Our trip was long, but uneventful, taking 28 hours including our ground time between flights which were so short we did not get anything to eat until we reached LAX. The LAX to Auckland and the flight to Palmerston North were with Air New Zealand, and the long leg was on a 747-400. I like that bird.



We were met at Palmerston North by Dave and drove 2.5 hrs to the lodge which is in the mountains. When we reached the mountains, the mist we’d been having turned to snow. There were concerns the road would be closed, but we made it. The photo below is of a snow covered cow we passed on the way in.


This picture was taken the morning after our arrival. It had stopped snowing, and the sun was out. The vistas from the lodge were spectacular, but the wind was really blowing and there was no hunting. This led to the decision to move me and another hunter, Shaun, who was already at the ranch, to the South Island, to take our tahr and chamois. Shaun is from Louisiana and a great guy who tells more humorous stories than I.


This is a picture of the dinning area and kitchen at the lodge. It is very homey and we ate well. At times there were over 14 dinning, mostly men and with appetites. I was particularly taken with the fine recipes for venison, venison sausage, and ground venison. The sauces were terrific. Another surprise was the quality of their salad greens. I wish we could get them as fresh. A selection of beers was available and the wines were Australian and New Zealand varietals: excellent.


As mentioned, we were flown in Alpine’s own Cessna 206 from Huntersville to Franz Josef on the South Island. The price of this charter is included in the base price of the hunt as well as the use of the helicopter down there. This is often not included in other companies’ prices. We flew a straight line from the air field across the channel between the two islands, over Nelson down the chain of mountains that divide the South Island to Franz Josef. This lake offered a really beautiful introduction to New Zealand’s South Island.


This is house of Brian McBride, the helo pilot, where folks generally stay and take their meals while hunting tahr and chamois. There was such a crowd, that we stayed in town and just ate out at the house. This was also our point of departure for our hunts and where the trophies were processed. Again the food was very good and the wines were excellent. South Islanders drink Speight’s and Montieth beer. North Islander’s drink Tui. Opinions vary geographically on which is better. Honestly, you can’t go wrong with any NZ beer based upon my sampling. The mountains in the background are the ones we hunted.

We were hunting after lunch and, I was in the “shooter’s†position on our first flight. Our guide, Chris, rode in the co-pilot’s seat. When the tahr were spotted, we moved to a snowy ledge below them and Chris got out; I took off my belt, my earphones, and debarked; Chris got the guns, both shotgun and rifle, off the floor in back. The helo moved off and stayed in contact with Chris by radio. We got set, and were told the tahr were coming right down at us. In about 10 seconds, the tahr came over the rock above me about 15yds away, tried to stop when he saw me, but his momentum carried him on over at which point he jumped. As he came past, I just looked over the barrel of the 30-06 BAR and pulled the trigger. He went right down hit in the neck. He slid down the mountain about 100ft and we had to lift him down to the river for trophy photos. For those of you who care, I was told by another one of the hunters that he scored 38, about 10†horns and 9â€bases. They tell me that is good, but not great.


This is Brian and Chris with my tahr down on the river. They are both real pro’s. Chris guides in NZ in the winter, then moves to Alaska for sheep after the season there closes. Brian logs about 5400hours a year in the copter. For those slow on math, that is over 100 hours per week! He does this work with Alpine, does glacier sightseeing, and deer recovery work too.


This is me with the helo. It was a Hugh’s copter, a McDonnell Douglas company. It was quite a nice helo and virtually a part of Brian the way he flew it.


This is Shaun on the back porch the McBride home. We were waiting to “deploy†our second morning and it was taking a bit of time because the wind had shifted and it was really rough, dangerously so, to get close to the mountains where the Chamois hide.


This is me with my chamois which was taken on the third day we were in the south. We were skunked the 2d day.



After the chamois, we had lunch and waited for Larry and Steve to finish their chamois. They were successful, and after lunch we flew back along our same track to Huntsville on the North Island. Our air speed for both trips was right at 130kts; however, coming down we had averaged about 120 kts. Going back we picked up a tailwind and made about 160kts. Time down: 3.5 hours. Time up: 2 hours.

This is my stag. I took it with Cullen as my guide back in the north. It was taken the day after we got back. I had had a chance to look at some stags and decided to “up-grade†my package to a high silver stag. This was a good decision. You could not believe the gold and gold plus stags on this property. I think that the current world record is from Shane’s as well as the last couple before that. It was actually an effort to find a high silver. The stalk was very straight forward; we closed to within 200 yards and it fell a 139gr Hornady bullet from a 7-08. It ran about 50yds and was dead by the time we could get to him.


My excellent shot on the stag was followed the next day by two clean misses on this Arapawa ram. First, I was about 45-degrees up hill and then I was about 45-degrees down hill. I finally got a shot at this one, again downhill, and it was one shot and dead by the time we got there. It sounds like all they did was stand around at let us shoot at them, but that was not the case. The range on all the shots was at least 200 yards. The little 7-08 I shot was a “loaner,†but was a stainless, medium action Sako with a composite stock topped with a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40. Very nice combination. The Arapawa rams make a great trophy.


I had seen the Fallow deer as I was videoing Larry’s evening hunts from blinds. These were pretty spectacular and I thought I’d like to get one. These too are “graded†and this was a “base†line trophy. It was spotted one morning feeding as we were moving up the mountain. We dismounted and walked to a point where I could ease up over the edge of the berm along side the road where the berm shallowed out as the road topped the hill. He was about 100yds away and fell to one shot of the 7-08 which broke his shoulder. I hit him with another round just behind the leg in the heart, and he was dead before we could walk to him.


This goat was determined to be about as good as the others in the group. They were all feeding along a hill side which I was to find out, was barely walkable. It was a stalk around the side of the mountain on the road staying up against the mountain. When we got to the point where we could see them, we crawled to a rock on the side of the road and tried to line up on a brown goat that was higher than this one. He stayed masked by a slight rise and kept his rump pointed right at us. He really did not present a shot. I told Cullen that I really like a white one. He glassed both, and concluded that the difference between the two wasn’t all that great if I really wanted a white one. I hit this one low in the chest and it ran off straight away from me. It stopped a moment, and I hit it again in the rump and the bullet exited within an inch of the exit wound of my first shot. My third shot was at over 200yds, and it entered in the area the other two rounds had exited. I was surprised at how tough these billies were. Up close for photos, you know they are goats. The nice thing about woolen mittens is they wash. My last animal was a Sika deer.


The weather had turned cold and windy again, and on Friday morning, we had some rain as well. That afternoon, Chris, who had flown in with another hunter from the South Island, was available to take me out. He was familiar with the area and we 4-wheeled up into a thick bunch of scrub that actually faces the lodge. He and I dismounted and walked out on this long ridge that moved towards the entrance road to the lodge. He glassed and tiptoed the entire way. I did not know what he saw, but he indicated I was to stay quiet, and move quietly along behind him. We continued this way for about three hundred yards. Finally, he had me move up to him and I could see a couple of Sika’s and stag below me. I braced up on the road’s verge where I could have a good view of all the animals. I certainly did not want to hit the wrong one. I fired one shot with a loaner 308 that took him a little low but right behind the front leg. He went down, but before I could fire again, he was up. It was a heart-lung shot, but low; and he ran about 25 yards across slope. When he stopped, he was weaving like a punched out fighter. I slid (fell) down the hill, and ran around to shoot him in the side, but he fell before I could get down to his level. Chris stopped me from shooting again and finished him with a knife thrust to prevent more meat damage to the tasty venison.


This is one of the rooms looking out over the valley. All the rooms but one had a private bath, and it was right outside the door to the room. All the rooms had at least one double bed, some had two and mine had two doubles and a single. This was great for a slob like me who like to spread out. The staff cleaned everyday and wash was done everyday, which reduces the amount of stuff you have to carry. The rooms were double glazed and comfortable notwithstanding the very cold weather we had.


This is the living room/den. Every evening the men would gather and if we were watching something good like the All Blacks (New Zealand’s national rugby team) play the Springboks (RSA’s national rugby team) the ladies might show up too. It was warmed by a wood stove and good spirits of all kinds.


This was the first hunt I’ve been on in which you paid for trophies based upon their quality. I understand the necessity of this; however, it requires a different approach if you are not “comfortable†beyond caring. The basic tahr, chamois and stag package is 13,000USD and an up grade to high silver is 1500USD. The goat and ram were 500USD each. The sika was 3500 and the fallow was 2500. This came to 21500USD. Tips were extra. Trophy preparation for shipment is extra. Shipment of course will be extra. Airfare to and from Palmerston North was 2500USD from Tallahassee.


I was distressed by how I had to shoot my chamois which ended up being from the helo. This is not how it is generally done, which is like the tahr. However, we had eight hunters who had to have their shot at chamois in one day before a front moved in and shut it down. And the weather was playing tricks at the North Island also. Essentially, the hunters on the right side got to take their chamois the old fashion way and those on the left had to shoot them from the copter. I should add that chamois, tahr and stags are shot in this manner in NZ. Apparently, they like all mammalian species, were imported and are consider like pest or vermin. So it is a matter, as I understand it, of†when in Rome . . . “; however, I would have much rather been on the right side of the copter.

This hunt is a very good. Trophy quality for what you get is incredibly good. Guides are knowledgeable. Pilots and planes are top notch; very competent and well maintained. I used loaner rifles which were totally satisfactory. The rooms, lodge, food and drink were excellent. All the staff were helpful and worked on problems when they occurred, which wasn’t often, immediately. There are no "surprises."

I’d recommend this hunt to anyone and believe they would be very happy, if they understand that this is a Put and Take operation; that the animals are very wary and not easily killed; it is a fair chase hunt; and you pay for the quality of the stags, sika , fallow deer as well as sambar and russa deer, but bring your checkbook for real if you want to hunt these last two.

To all you Kiwi’s: I hope I got your hunting ethos right. You have a wonderful country. The game is incredible. The scenery is awesome. All your beer is good. You are a friendly lot and you have some beautiful women. I hope I get a chance to come back some day - for the hunting, for the hunting! Kudude

Great photos and a very honest hunt report Thanks for sharing.

Any reason for not bringing your own firearm??

Wonderful hunt and report!

Thanks for sharing.

Nice report kudude, do you know if NZ sika are Formosan/Manchurian/Japanese?

It would be rare to get a head like that in the UK!

Thanks. It was a pleasure to share.

I don't know where is sika came from. I was told they were Japanese, but I don't know.

I did not get back from France in time to process my gun permit and did not want to bother with gun cases etc. The hunting in the mountains with the copter is rough on a rifle too. I'd use theirs again. Kudude

Nice report, sounds like a great hunt.

I know how you feel about the Chamois, I ended up taking a zebra this year from the truck after a "talley Ho", basically chasing it, a common practice where I was. I'm proud of the shot, through the heart on a running Zebra, but would rather have stalked it. Like you "when in Rome". Still, you have a nice trophy, and all in all it sounds like you had a fantastic hunt.

Thanks for sharing.

TerryR

In all due respect, I am confused when you say the hunt is "put & take". The deer may be in enclosed high fenced areas but the Tahr and Chmois are totally free ranging. They are considered vermin by the greenies (which want shed of all non-native animials) of NZ which it seems there are a great many.

Jagter,

The hunt for tahr and chamois and the hunt for the other species are conducted in two different places, and under different conditions. The "deer" are all on a 6000 acre, high fenced facility. Kudude

Fantastic hunt report and photos. Looks like you got the full NZ bag! And this time your aircraft stayed in the air, eh?

Kudude, great hunt report! All the information I needed to know. Others should use this as a model.
Peter.

Congrats on your hunt! Your Sika is a Formosan Sika if I remember correctly. I book for Shane and I've seen some of the monster Stag's that come off the estate. They are incredible. Glad you enjoyed your hunt, and thanks for the report. David

Great post and what a trip! Thanks for taking the time to put up all the pictures.

It's totaly ilegal to shoot from a helicopter in NZ unless you are on WAR which is wild animal recovery which a paying passenger cannot do, and the helicopter must have a wars permit. It's a practice that should be stopped, other than that I'm glad you enjoyed your time in NZ

Kudue,

Good report. I hunted with Shane in '04 for Stag, Tahr Chamois and Sika.

Brian's skill at flying that chopper is incredible. The chopper ride was one of the high points of the South Island. Another high point was watching Shane hang from a rope off the bottom of the chopper to retreive my Tahr that fell were no man can walk. That was frightening to watch.

Good report and very nice animals.

Illegal hunting on public land for your tahr and your chamois you should be ashamed of yourself.
I am so tired of you guys turning up in New Zealand and trashing what little we have of a hunting resource. I noticed a similar article in the latest Cabela's. Helicopter landings to shoot or pick up your trophies on public land
are illegal and have nothing to do with sport.
Ask your guide to read you the first section conditions of a WARO permit it prohibits recreational hunters or fare carrying passengers. It also requires you to obtain a hunting permit for hunting public land.
If this is referred to the authorities and the department of conservation, who's land you hunted on investigate your hunt the final out come could be a federal prosecution under the Lacey Act.

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:
Illegal hunting on public land for your tahr and your chamois you should be ashamed of yourself.
I am so tired of you guys turning up in New Zealand and trashing what little we have of a hunting resource. I noticed a similar article in the latest Cabelas. Helicopter landings to shoot or pick up your trophies on public land
are illegal and have nothing to do with sport.
Ask your guide to read you the second section condiitons of a WARO permit it prohibits recreational hunters or fare carrying passengers.
If this is referred to the authorities and the department of conservation, who's land you hunted on investigate your hunt the final out come could be a federal prosecution under the Lacy Act.

I'm sure that the visiting hunters do not know every law and rely on the hired guides to make sure that they are complying with the same.

I leave for Namibia in less than a month and I do not know all the laws there. I will rely on my PH's word.

I have done a Google search for NZ hunting regs and can find very little information regarding the regulation of big game in any form. In fact, most of the commercial web sites would give the idea that there is little if any regulation of big game hunting as opposed to wing shooting and fishing.

We have several Kiwis here based upon the information provided on beer preferences; please enlighten us on the big game hunting regulations of NZ, particularly those regarding the use of helicopters and hunting. Kudude

Illegalities aside (and it is theoretically illegal), I’m happy as well you had a great trip and enjoyed yourself. Tourism is a vital part of the New Zealand economy and tourism hunting is a great low-volume high-value earner for rural communities. However, in my opinion, the problem here is that you, and many others undertaking these types of hunts, have been told by the operator that it’s the status quo to get dropped off by a chopper while he buzzes off and drives the game animal back towards you where you can have a crack at it, or even worse, shoot it from the chopper itself. This is what gets Kiwis so angry when they read reports such as these. Not only is it not allowed, it is seen as extremely bad form, and in the eyes of most Kiwi recreational hunters, shows a complete lack of sportsmanship – collecting not hunting. Hunting tourism operators are commercial hunters, not recreational hunters and there lies the rub. ‘Having’ to shoot a game animal from the chopper because the weathers turned? Weather is weather and if it packs it in you pack it in.

You commendably have shown some thought towards this and good on you, but it’s definitely not a case of ‘when in Rome’, and I’m afraid the only time game animals in New Zealand can and should be shot in the circumstances you have described is during government sanctioned meat hunting or culling operations.

Fjold
I understand what you say but if I was to post and article on the states section and relay how I did something that was illegal and ethicly wrong I'm sure I would cop the wrath of many forum members and not knowing local laws and regulations wouldn't cut it. Drug couriers use that line all the time Yes hunting on public land in NZ is not as controlled as in your home land and rules and regulations not published as well they are still there. When money comes into it a lot of operators bend and break rules for the mighty dollar

One aspect of it that our American friends will not be aware of, is that unlike in North America there is no regulation of hunting guides in NZ. The guiding industry in NZ is famous for being full of 'cowboy' types. In other words, anything goes for an American dollar.

1) An Illegal Activity

The ‘helihunting’ of tahr (and other animals) which we refer to is the use of helicopters to locate game and herd them to paying clients on the ground, or to pursue animals until they reach exhaustion and the client can be dropped off to shoot the animal, or occasionally even as a platform to shoot from.
Schedule One of the Wild Animal Recovery Operations Concessions issued by the Department of Conservation states:

“2. Concession Activity:

The use of aircraft (whether for hire or reward) to carry out one or more of the following activities:

(a) the searching for, shooting, or immobilising of wild animals:
(b) The recovery of wild animals (whether dead or alive) or any part of those wild animals:
(c) The carriage of persons, supplies, equipment, firearms, ammunition, poisons, or other things that may be used for the purposes of paragraph (a) or paragraph (b):

EXCLUDING the carriage of either recreational hunters or fare paying passengers.â€


Here is the specific regulation. Your hunt breached several acts. The conservation act 1987 and the wild animal recovery act 1977.
Ignorance is no defence you are in NZ and your guides are happy to expose you to the threat of prosecution. You are the poachers New Zealanders don't need or want your money, only your guides. You bring nothing to our country, get out and walk or stay on private land.

You should google the coroners inquest into the death of a countryman of yours Clifford Senter.
And refer to the comments of Paul Hellebrekkers who is currently under investigation and had to have the words illegal landing pulled out of him under oath.

Ive done it for you your guides landing concession is the same as Back Countries, it is not a hunting concession it is a commercial meat recovery concession and very different to the activity you were carrying out.

Senter Death

Or you can go to the Otago Daily Times newspaper site here and search yourself.

Otago Daily Times

You are probably quite safe from any legal action at this time unless you start to really get my goat.... then I might make it my personal business to start pursuing you poachers legally

Weathered,

I think from my original post that you realize that I am pretty serious about my shooting and am not inclined to a "guard house lawyer" approach; however, in the regulation you cite there is no prohibition. It maybe that you did not include that portion. Would you please check the cite and post the portion of the regulation which states the activities mentioned in the paragraph are prohibited?

I found no regulations cited in the two newspapers you referenced. Kudude

The regulation I cited as prohibiting the carrying of fare paying or recreational hunters is found in a WARO concession as I cited above. It is the permit that allows the commercial helicopter recovery of wild animals for meat processing. This permit suspends recovery activity during certain times of the year especially march to may.
As your hunt was not related to WARO and the carrying of paying passengers or recreational hunters is expressly prohibited under WARO you therefore have no permission to land or take animals in a national park.
The statutes you break are the Wild animal control act 1977 and the Conservation act 1987.
You are further in breach by shooting from a helicopter there are probably sections of civil aviation law you have breached by discharging a firearm from a helicopter.


You and your guide held no permit to land or recover any animal taken during your hunt. The conservation act 1987 and the wild animal control act prohibit your landing.

Our Department of Conservation whose land you hunted on are equally at fault as you are they ignore their own statutes and allow you tourists to poach our hunting land. Many hunters such as myself are considering persuing civil action against your sort of "shooting" (it is not hunting)
If you care enough go dredge your way through those acts cited I am in the states till the end of the month.

I must confess that when I read Kudude's report I assumed that his actions were legal ie. "that is the way they do things over there". While I would not hunt/shoot from a helicopter or have the copter drop me directly in front of an animal, I assumed that it was legal and therefore it became a moral question for Kudude whether he did these or not. I certainly appreciate the education, not only on regulations, but the lack of regulation of "guides". A previous thread reported on a Richard Nunnick as I recollect.
Peter.

A lot of tourists shooting from helicopters might suspect it to be illegal but don't ask too closely. If New Zealand's alpine terrain is too demanding for you to hunt in; There are very well run guided operations on private land available that offer free range hunts for tahr and chamois. I encourage all you tourists with guns to take that option if you aren't good enough to hunt on your own two feet.
Stay off public land unless you can cut it like the rest of us.

Weathered

You did not answer the question that I asked. The reg you quoted is as follows:

“2. Concession Activity:

The use of aircraft (whether for hire or reward) to carry out one or more of the following activities:

(a) the searching for, shooting, or immobilising of wild animals:
(b) The recovery of wild animals (whether dead or alive) or any part of those wild animals:
(c) The carriage of persons, supplies, equipment, firearms, ammunition, poisons, or other things that may be used for the purposes of paragraph (a) or paragraph (b):

EXCLUDING the carriage of either recreational hunters or fare paying passengers.â€

There is no prohibition in that cite.

Further, this hunt was not in the prohibited time frame you reference in your subsequent post. Further, I don't think you can state with any certainty what permits or concessions that the outfitter had. And please don't make any assumptions about what I may or may not be capable of physically doing. I sometimes even surprise myself.

I would like a cite to the regulations, and please don't be offended, not your interpretation of them. Kudude

Kudude
You want to check on me ... lets take a bet. You hand over your photos and hunt info to the department of conservation and you can ask them for judgement.

The Honourable Steve Chadwick
Minister of Conservation
Freepost Parliament
PO Box 18 888, Wellington

or email

claire.whelen@parliament.govt.nz

The area you hunted is public land, a national park, landing anywhere you want to hunt is prohibited at any time including the time you hunted.
I don't need to guess what permit your guide had as I already know he had none, DoC don't issue them ... anytime for any hunting at all. The best you can expect is a landing permit to a hut in the bottom of the valley. I live and hunt here I know the law you don't.
The guides engaged in this sort of charter have been citing WARO (a commercial meat recovery concession) as an exception to enable them to land and let you recover the animals you shoot. Clearly the section of WARO I have cited excludes even having you onboard let alone shooting.
WARO intentionally excludes carrying recreational hunters. Once you understand that you have no legal basis for your hunt and are in breach of the conservation act and the wild animal control act once you set foot on the ground.
Don't even mention the fact you shot out of the helicopter unles you really want trouble.

Why don't you ask your guide a few questions it might be cheaper for you than turning over your hunt info to the department of conservation.
I bet you go nowhere near them.

You asked if you got the New Zealand hunting ethos right ... you didn't
As to your physical capability I wish you good health and every success if you decide to return and hunt on the ground.

Don't shoot from helicopters, don't use helicopters to herd tahr towards you

Weathered,

I don't want to check on you. I don't want to make a bet with you. I'd just like you to either post the complete rule alleged to be violated or a cite to a source where I can look it up.

I made a hunt report on this forum. You posted that my guide and I did something wrong. I ask you to help me find the regulation that prohibited the activity we arguably were engaged in. You then posted a portion of a regulation which on its face does not state any prohibition, and a citation to two newspapers one of which had a story about someone dying in support of your contention.

You are the one who made the assertion of wrong doing, and I am not going to try to prove myself innocent of some charge that you have made until you provide me with a citation I can look up or read of the rule I allegedly violated. That isn't the way we do it or you do it.

If I have violated your law, I am very sorry; however, I expect that this is a matter of contention between New Zealanders regarding differing interpretations of the actual rules (whatever they may be). Kudude

Kudude - the point is it’s not up to you to prove yourself innocent. You have been misled by the tourism hunting industry whose responsibility as operators is not to put you, the client, in such a position as this. A lot of them are rouges who do it because they can get away with it. The basic fact of the matter is that tourism hunting occurs in two spaces in New Zealand; on public and on private land. Stick to hunting on private land and that's great, everyone’s happy. On public land with a commercial operator you are hunting a public resource and as such, whether you feel ‘regulations’ have been broken or not, you are somewhat bound even more so by the 'hunting ethos' of the country you are visiting. Commercial operators, for obvious reasons, have a different take on the ethical and moral obligations that we have towards big game animals. If you’re ok with the way that, as we Kiwis say, you have had the ‘wool pulled over your eyes’, fine. In my view you have been taken for a ride in more ways than one.

I see some of these members have registered in 2005 2006 and 2007....why all this now?This has been advertised as standard practice here in the states since I looked into a tahr hunt 5 years ago.Its why I went to Africa instead...

Just get a copy of Shane Quinns dvd he has and he shows helocopter involvement in all his hunts...one of his biggest selling points at the shows("I can get you where they are").

My point is that when you hire an outfitter/guide, you expect them to have created thier reputation on the merits of other references.I talked at length to him and other outfitters, and to a person insisted to get a tahr/chamois that" you would take weeks of hiking to accomplish this"So I always say" weeks I got,I'm game ,lets go".Not a taker yet. Some of these outfits are regular players in the buisness(by the way in your country).Since they are the ones who we see its thier game so to speak.

Thats why i didnt go yet,cant find a reputable outfitter who says they can do this.I'm not saying it cant be done ,but your fellow countryman who book hunts here,market it as so.

I know very few hunters that want to break others game laws,but your argument is with them...there are videos of this type of hunt all over...many hunting shows on our television show them,with Shane Quinn and others.

I think its great to raise these questions here,but this guy gave an honest report.I would very much like a link to the game laws in NZ.

That would be productive use for all in the future.


I cant help but ask,is it the money?

I am a little concerned that this has become an attack on the guy who posted a reoprt on his hunt . He hunted according to the way the hunting company operates. It isnt he who is at fault but the company guiding him.

There appears to be enough names and evidence for this issue to be taken further with the appropriate authorities. Taking issue with the original poster is pointless, he did as he was given to beleive was "normal" in those circumstances.

I'd have expected John Gryphon to have waded into this - its his type of territory .

Kudude,
Weathered is 100% correct. A WARO concession is just that,a Govt concession to hunt and recover wild game for the export market. As for most concessions, there are certain rules the operator must adhere to given that they are arial hunting over public lands. Unfortunately, the rules are being bent and the practice is escalating.
Put your self in the boots of a recreational hunter,[kiwi or otherwise]who slogs with a laden pack into a mountainous area to secure a trophy head in an ethical and sportsmanlike manner,only to have a helicopter gunship with a fee paying client swoop in front of him and either shoot an animal from the machine,or land the shooter at a convenient spot and then herd the animal within shooting range. It happens.
This scenario is being practised on an almost daily basis during the peak hunting periods.
In our mountainous country it is a difficult practice to police,helicopters being so versatile and efficent. The guides and helicopter operators involved know very well they are bending the rules to satisfy the wants of paying clients. While not wishing to detract from your holiday experience in any way I do think that all hunters should satisfy themselves as to the legality of hunt. The moral and ethical aspects of this type of activity rest with the individual hunter.

I should know better than to step into this mine field of discussion.
Take a deep breath Weathered, your right, BUT...
Kudude a great report, honest and accurate.
WoodmanDan keep looking there are plenty of outfitters/guides here that will give you the hunt you want.

Weathered I wish the passion you are showing here could be embraced by DOC and a majority of hunting guides.
As you well know, it want be.
Your not alone in your frustration.
There is no will for DOC to look into these issues. If there was they would be grabbing the 100's of DVD's, TV shows and videos available in the States and else where.
The Senter case could be the "straw " that breaks the camels back.
BUT as long as wild animals in NZ are regarded as PESTS by central government, where and what are the kiwi hunters options.
It sucks but rememeber LAW and Justice are not the same thing.

If this was an easy issue to deal with it would have been dealt to many years ago.
I wish you all well.
Please, make sure that objective and subjective are not muddied is this debate. A debate that needs airing continuely.

If it has seemed I'm taking a poke at Kudude I apologise - no intention in doing so at all. Just trying to point out what some operators say and how they act and the reality of the situation may be two completely different things. The outfit involved in this case are evidently well known for their particular hunting techniques.

I do believe that by posting this you do effect change....

I cant judge what you can do in NZ...but you could post this topic around outdoor show booking time Dec/Jan/Feb.You could remind all considering a hunt not to participate in these activities.That they don't have to feel pressure to do something that doesn't feel right.

I'm in the same boat as you:I live 2 hours north of New York City.All the land around here is bought up for second homes of the wealthy from the city.Then they post it and do not allow hunting with out a fee.It has cut hunting locally, and finding decent public land can be a challenge.

Keep up the good fight...cause in Nov I'm going to Spain, but next year,maybe I'll see you and buy you a beer...

Just need to bang a few more nails...

I am involved with the death of Harold Senter. I believe he was killed as a direct result of a lack of enforcement in heli-hunting by DoC. The poor SOB should never have been there.

Kudude
Ask your pilot/guide McBride for a copy of his WARO concession you will find it as I contend. If you don't want to ask hard questions of your outfitter who has exposed you to a possible federal offence under the Lacey act then I will furnish you a copy of a standard WARO concession when I return from the states it is not McBrides but the excluding conditions are standard on all WARO concessions and will be the same.
Once you understand your presence on a helicopter invalidates the concession you will find that the places you can land on public land are limited.
Aircraft landing areas are designated and likely to be huts and specific areas. Landing where-ever you want to shoot animals is not permitted under any circumstances... The sections of the conservation and wild animal control act you are in breach of are able to be accessed at the department of conservations website. I may be able to post the link tonight or tomorrow.

You claim I have to prove something ... what I will show you will validate my words. It is still saddening when faced with your post ...read your own post again .

You kudude allowed your own sense of what is ethical and sportsmanlike to be determined by strangers.
You bought the ticket and took the ride without once doubting the ethics of this sort of hunting and asking yourself is this what my hunting has come to ?
That is the really sad part of this thread.

Tahr and Chamois are not pests to be mechanically destroyed from the air

meditations on hunting.
Jose Ortega y Gasset
Bloodties Ted Kerosate

Edit to add

Department of Conservation Website
Go to this link and start searching ... Westland aerial access is a good start for hunting the truth

Another Information Site from DoC on thar (misspelt by DoC) you will note that helicopter access is balloted and supposedly strictly controlled you definitely cannot claim to have secured balloted access as hunters are only allowed to ground hunt and are dropped off and picked up a week later.
When helicopter access is mentioned in this as year round it means to a hut or designated campsite not flying around looking for animals

Thar information site

Why now ? why not ?
If I want to land in a remote valley and hunt legally I ask the operator the location of legal landing sites, then I get flown in and either set up a base camp at the hut or landing site. Any other type of hunting is illegal I would not hunt like that anyway so I always hunt on foot.
Sometimes I pay a landing fee to the Department of Conservation. I pay for each landing and each person who gets in and out of the helicopter.
I have watched people like you Kudude fly over my head into the basins I have walked for hours to hunt, sometimes I have sat huddled in my sleeping bag in blizzard and sleet for days watching waiting for the weather to break all peace gone in the roar of a few minutes, then watched the helicopter herd the bulls to the waiting guns .... tahr running downhill to you ?
Then the bulls get slung on the hook and lifted away for a photo somewhere scenic I make what I can of what is left and don't do too badly.
I and many like me volunteer for 10 days a year of ground hunting to cull breeding females and help manage our tahr herd.
I know a very good charter operator he does not do heli-hunts like your pilot, his customers don't want to charter him anymore because his concessions get hammered by people like your guide,
I pay for huts and pay for access and I land where I am allowed then start my hunting on foot. I respect the animals I hunt.
I should not be expected to read and tolerate hunts like yours without speaking up. I know that it was not your intention to break any law and you had no way of knowing the impact your hunting has on New Zealand tahr and chamois hunters. I have been very abrupt and short, I stand by my words never the less

Weathered

Weathered I save you some work and post a couple of extracts from a general WARO concession..

SCHEDULE 1

1. The Land:

All Conservation Areas, National Parks, lands managed as though they were a National Park, Reserves (but not reserves vested in administering bodies), Wildlife Sanctuaries, Wildlife Refuges, and Wildlife Management Reserves managed by the Department of Conservation in the North Island and South Island of New Zealand subject to the exclusions and restrictions as identified in Schedule 3 attached.
2. Concession Activity:

The use of aircraft (whether for hire or reward) to carry out one or more of the following activities:

1. the searching for, shooting, or immobilising of wild animals:
2. The recovery of wild animals (whether dead or alive) or any part of those wild animals:
3. The carriage of persons, supplies, equipment, firearms, ammunition, poisons, or other things that may be used for the purposes of paragraph (a) or paragraph (b):

EXCLUDING the carriage of either recreational hunters or fare paying passengers.


SCHEDULE 2

Special Conditions



1. The concessionaire shall only use aircraft specified in Schedule 1, Item 18 of this Concession Document to conduct the Concession Activity. The Concessionaire shall notify the Grantor of any changes to the aircraft make, aircraft model, aircraft registration, or aircraft colour(s) before carrying out the Concession Activity.

2. This Concession does not confer on the Concessionaire or the Concessionaire's agents or employees the right to use huts or other public facilities on the Land in priority to other legitimate users of the Land.

3. The Concessionaire shall not convey or hold in captivity any live wild animal, other than while conveying the wild animal by aircraft to a place of captivity for which a permit or licence that is effective for the purposes of either section 12(1), or section 12(5) or section 12A(6) or section 12B(1) of the Wild Animal Control Act 1977 is held (whether held by the Concessionaire or not).

4. Ground hunters must obtain separate hunting permits or approvals to carry out any ground hunting activity.

some good reading here

http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1216430197

Weathered et al;

In the link for the article for Mr.Senter,it says NZPHGA applied for a "nationwide concession" (it was not at the time of his death)on May 22,2006.Was this granted?Does this give them the license required, they hide behind?

Thanks for all the links and info...

dan