Some of what you say is no doubt true.

I am aware of a dispute ongoing right now where the operator of a safari park admits to bringing in a stag and turning it loose the day it was shot. It was a big strange looking creature that reportedly scored 491 SCI. The client paid almost $50,000 USD. I have no idea how big the property is.

In my opinion the SCI record book is the cause of much of this trouble. For whatever it is worth, I am a life member of SCI. I haven't registered an animal since my second safari in 1991.

As a practical matter, we "tourist hunters" have little choice but to contract with an outfitter. If, for example, I wanted to go sheep hunting in Canada, I have no idea exactly were to go. I don't have the equipment and even if I did, I have no way to transport all that stuff. Not to mention, I have no way to scout. I live a very long way away and I have to work.

The sad truth is that things go on in the hunting world that should not. It isn't limited to NZ. On my last sheep hunt, my guide was from Alberta. He had pictures of these massive white tails,the likes of which I had never seen. When questioned, they ran them down with trucks and shot them out the window with shotguns if they didn't outright run them over. No thanks. Not for me, no matter how big they are. I have witnessed or heard about things in Africa beyond comprehension. Everything from having the PH shoot the animals to using planes to spot a big elephant bull to one of the SCI bigwigs landing on a farm in a helicopter and shooting a top 10 animal in a field of about 100 ares with no cover. I am not going to criticize them but it isn't for me.

I understand how this strikes a nerve. Some of the reactions of parties on both sides are understandable when one thinks about it. Poaching pisses me off whether it is on my place here or in a concession I am hunting in Africa. The guy who started this seems like a nice guy. I have seen him post polite encouraging comments many times. He also seems to me like a pretty bright guy that might be a lawyer. One of his posts had a definite legal ring to me. It had to come as a total shock to him to find out that a reputable outfitter had mislead him about the legality.. He didn't want it to be true, especially considering that if he is a lawyer and he were to get convicted for a Lacey Act violation, guess what? He will be disbarred. No way to make a living. Most people will have a negative reaction. Attacking someone's nationality will almost always bring a negative response.

I wish all the name calling, personal attacks, class warfare and attacks on heritage would stop. What does it accomplish? Nothing. Well perhaps it provide a bit of entertainment to some.

Well fellows, I am off to bed. I have to get up early and run 5 miles in the morning so I can hopefully make it up the mountains when I go to NZ. The older I get, the harder it is. Well, at least some things are harder, some things aren't! LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Larry, you said "some of what I may say is true..." it's all true, and I am not quoting an isolated operator. If they are at the 'show' or whereever they adertise these things, and are telling you that you can order a silver stag, or a gold stag...then these are farmed animals. There is no other way to gaurantee them.


Larry, you do have a choice whether you go with an outfitter or not...its not out of the question to go without one.
NZ outfits will tell you straight out - as they probably told Kudude, that he has no chance at all to shoot a Tahr unless they book with them...it's not true at all. Thats their busniess marketing speaking - they are hardly going to tell you freely that you could have shot the same size animal hunting over the last weekend -for nothing at all...

Let me put it this way...
Tahr are only found in teh South island of NZ. The many people who live in the North island who want to hunt tahr dont contract with an outfitter to come down here to get one. They come down. They talk to people if they can. They walk up the mountain and they go find one.
You might say you have more riding on it, a hefty airfare to come over, not as much time...but you know, convert that money you would have paid a 'guide' into more time spent instead of a fee, and you can still do it for less than the cost of an elk tag in Colorado..and if money is not the object then there is no hurdles really.

Our hunters from the North island come down and do it for the first time, and they have seen no more tahr than you may have.

(Just speaking in general now, not necessarily to yourself)
- if one gives up the notion that you must get a "gold medal" tahr or something in order for the trip to be sucessful, then you can do some real hunting, becasue no matter how you look at some things you really can't buy...

quote:

Bon Ton
new member

Posted 29 July 2008 06:45
I don't mind being labelled a "'greenie'' if it means defending the laws of MY country against the rapacious ativities of visiting carpetbaggers.
Kududes post mentioned that eight parties were to hunt that day from the machine. I have nothing but contempt for those purporting to be a hunter,collecting game trophys in this manner.
There is no pride in downing an animal this way and it just doesn't qualify as fair chase.
How such people can then have the animal scored for bragging rights is beyond me.
Thats as polite as I can make it.I'm angry.
I noticed in a store window in Oregan USA last year, a sign offering $10,000 reward for information leading to the apprehension of persons unknown who shot a Bighorn Sheep illegally.
Is it to be one law for you guys and anything goes for the rest of the world?


Carlsen Highway
new member

Posted 29 July 2008 09:02 Hide Post
Maybe we should step back and see how this can happen, when you think about it its almost understandable...

The US hunter knows about the chopper shooting for venisen recovery. They hear stories about the deer cullers over here shooting thousands of animals...they get told there are no game laws, no seasons for big game, and no restrictions...they get told you can do anything you want. They get told the government drops tons of 1080 poison from choppers to kill the same animals.

Then they get told by their guide that shooting this way is normal NZ hunting behaviour. When you put that alongside the other activities mentioned above, well, its perfectly believable isnt it given that these activities are so beyond the foreign hunters understanding as well?
Well why wouldnt you go along for the ride?

Ive been thinking about this thread for a bit. WE're our own worst enemy, or actually the government wild animal policeys have created this culture of waste and slaughter; how can we censure an American hunter who comes along like this?
You know the Kudude wasnt shy about it was he? He posted a photo with the helicopter in the background. He mentioned the pilot by name.

WE have a hunting culture where its alright toshoot animals and just take a backsteak, where hunters are measured by how many they shot on a trip....who remembers Whereami's post of a NZ huntign trip with all the deck of a hut layed out with tails? He got nothing but congratulations.

Sure its illegal. But I think we're crying over spilt milk when we start taking someone like this to task over ethics...maybe enlightened individuals, but the NZ hunting culture overall is no shining example.
Weathers quoted from Ortega and a Ted Kerosote book somewhere above....I reckon we have a cheek to mention those guys in the same breath with the NZ hunting scene overall, both commercial and recreational.

illgal it may have been, but the activity was more Kiwi style slaughter than it was American,
are we getting stuck into this man becasue he gave up his ethics too easily for our liking when we're only just starting to learn what they are when it comes to game animals and hunting?
He at least expressed reservations. THats more than Ive ever heard from most Kiwi hunters to be perfectly honest.
Maybe its the money. If he hadnt of paid so much for it and was just invited along for a joy ride with a pilot mate and he got these animals, I think the attitude would be quite subtly different. It's possible.
Isnt it mad? These animals were worth $30, 000 to this man and we're getting into him becasue he didnt climb the mountain to shoot them, when they are not worth anything to us.

Weathered will be out culling tahr nannies by the truckload next week, and our friend Bon Ton has probably killed more animals as a proffessional hunter than the whole of the rest of the AR boards put together. (And thats not an exageration probably.)

How can you expect foreigners to understand this?

Posts: 10 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 18 December 2006

I had said I would not post again, but I have followed this thread with interest, and I have posted because of these two posts. It is ironic that these two posts in this long thread occur in sequence as shown here. With respect to Bon Ton's post, I think that Highway's post answers the criticism BT raises about foreign hunters coming to NZ.

As an outsider looking in, it seems that NZ's law, and the practices of its broader hunting community are "conflicted," or lacking in consistency. Both of gentlemen are passionate spokesmen, both are New Zealanders, and both are generally on the same side of the issue; however, I think Highway's observations recognize deeper problems that are a good starting point for your hunting and wildlife conservation community to discuss in addressing the issues that have been so hotly debated in this thread.

DOJ makes a valid point that it is insufficient to say, in essence, doing it the hard way is the only way because, as he points out, are you going to hike to the trail head and hunt with a long bow. I know this is argument by reducing everything to the absurd, but it is appropriate to think about it. The difference between the foreign hunter and local hunter is essentially time and opportunity.

You have no season and your time is limited by your job. We have the same limitations, only our commute cost about $2500 this year and about four days round trip. In my case, it was something I planned to do only once, not something I can do on any long weekend. How do I best allocate my time, assuming we do it in a legally permissible fashion?

I am in good shape for the shape that I am in, but as a person living in a land as flat as your coastal plain, I have no skill or experience at climbing mountains or even hills. I nearly killed myself walking in one of your stream beds (not in the mountain - easy there boys). I am not use to the dangers of hopping around wet rocks. (I'm busy looking out for quick sand and gators.) I bought wet weather and cold weather clothing, but my boots were not appropriate for your environment and I am not certain what would work. What level of risks do I want to accept? If you are my guide, what level of liability do you want to accept?

The issues raised above are certainly not all inclusive, and they are not simple. To brush them off is both parochial and short sighted. However, they pale in regard to the reconciliation of the various practices, needs, and ethical considerations underlying your wildlife management.

To address them without considering all their ramifications and their interrelationship diminishes their importance to NZ, NZ hunting, to hunting generally, and those of us who enjoy it. I truly hope that you are able to address these issues and reconcile them with the various interests groups: farmers, environmentalists, and hunters of all kinds to pick a few. This is my last post! Kudude

Gidday Guys,

I must say I have been loathe to become involved here as I certainly identify withthe Kiwis and as such I want to protect OUR heritage and lifestyle.

I also understand the passion and love of hunting expressed by those who may feel maligned by the attacks (percieved and real) made on the visitors to our shores.

Parochial (Kiwis remember I am a Cantab so I'm very one eyed ) remarks by both sides are not doing anything to resolve a conflict, the resolution of which should be the objective here.

I am going to make a suggestion here which if we are all hunters and gentlemen will be a win-win for all and if taken to heart will see the wishes of all realised.

Kiwis why don't we offer to take all members of AR on hunts in NZ for free. No guaranteed trophies, no guaranteed weather, no guarantees of anything other than good Kiwi company and hunts conducted in an honourable legal and friendly way.

If we were to do this would you not be proud to be a Kiwi Hunter extending the friendship to a fellow member of the hunting fraternity for which we are renowned. If not I don't think you are a real Kiwi Hunter and must be a poofter faggot townie.

If those who visit and want to hunt with us on a fair and legal basis are true hunters will take the opportunity to enjoy good company and hard earned trophies (they are not the farmed monstrosities you normally see) in the manner of a man or woman of honour, you are to be made welcome.

How is that for an idea? Unlike some I am not wealthy enough to be able to head off to North America or Europe or Africa on the hunt of my dreams but through the auspices of this forum I have been offered such hunts should I win lotto and be able to afford the airfare.

I believe we as Kiwis should be living up to our reputation for hospitality and offering our fellow members of Accurate Reloading a similar opportunity.

Just a thought.


Happy Hunting

Hamish

Good idea Hamish,i have had invites to hunt all over the world from members here on AR Just got from Australia last week.

Hamish, you were doing really well until you got to this bit

quote:

Originally posted by Hamish:
If we were to do this would you not be proud to be a Kiwi Hunter extending the friendship to a fellow member of the hunting fraternity for which we are renowned. If not I don't think you are a real Kiwi Hunter and must be a poofter faggot townie.

This is just a continuation of people calling others names because they fail to think or do as directed. We can do without this crap. Besides, I'm a townie and I still consider myself a real Kiwi hunter. If I'm not, maybe you can take me for a hunt and put me on the true path to salvation

Having spoken my mind on that, I think it's a good idea. I have been having similar thoughts myself. A lot of what has been said on this thread is about visiting hunters having the wool pulled over their eyes by slick marketing. This results in them paying unecessarily for things they can have for free, doing illegal things they are told are legal, shooting hand reared animals they believe are "wild" game, and going home with trophies that are not even average heads. Many of the posts have been about breaking down those misperceptions. If nothing else, I hope our guests are now aware of their legal obligations and are better positioned to make a well informed purchase should they choose to hire a guided hunt in NZ.

If visiting hunters are willing to invest some time and effort to hunt the Kiwi way then I encourage Kiwi forum members to help them with that.

Gidday Meathunta,

Yep you are dead right and thanks for pulling me up on the name calling. I'm going to plead one too many whiskies before dinner.

Between us I am sure that we could at least seethat any visitors have a good time.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Onya Hamish

Phew... I read it all.

Ok guys, I am new obviously, but not to hunting Forums. I am easy to find on the NZ ones if you want to check my background. As for the others here, they are personal friends of mine met through forums. They include board members of NZs major hunting institutions, hunting writers, Ex government hunters (NZ hunting royalty) and guys spend almost all of their time taking beginners hunting. They are good people.
You may be surprised, but Carlsen Highway and Weathered have been taking people met on Forums hunting in NZ for a long time, this is not a new concept to us.


To Kududude
Im sorry if my countrymen have taken away from your experience in any way. You were obviously on a high after your trip and to find out you have a whole bunch of "romans" pop up and leave a sour taste in your mouth is no fun. As I have said, they are good people, so let me explain why they are so upset.

In NZ, as stated all hunting is free. You dont want to dive into our hunting legislation. Its a nightmare. The conservationists as a whole would dearly love to see all introduced (game species) wiped out. The hunting community want their recreation protected, while maintaining our ability to hunt what we want when we want (difficult). We fight an up hill battle not to have our sport shot and poisoned from under us. We would hope, as members of the international hunting community that you here would support us.

I have never understood the Envy thing either. Really, if its all about who has biggest head with the most points, cant I just take all the heads I already have, saw them up and glue them together? If your buying a guaranteed trophy, why fly all the way over to shoot it yourself? Why not have it shot, mounted and posted over?

Obviously in many countries, going with a reputable outfitter gets you the "when in Rome" experience". In NZ, this is not the case. There are guides who will take you out, with no guarantee of an animal into the NZ bush. They are not busy. NZs trophy quality is not high, therefore, if your offered anything over 12points, your not in Rome.

Hunting in NZ is like climbing a mountain (actually, literally as well as metaphorically). Its about the experience and the overall challenge, the Trophy is to remind you of that. The size or quality reflects the time and effort put in (and occasionally a fair bit of luck).

I know Weathered well, as I have said. The upper echelon of Tahr hunters are the maddest of the lot. Unless your lucky, to get that 13" bull requires years of climbing your guts out in some of the hardest terrain on earth. Guys who are after that bull rarely shoot anything. They are found in high remote hanging valleys tucked in behind a spotting scope, waiting Weathered is one of these people. To get that 8 point Sika on Madnesses wall he has crawled on his belly through scrub you couldnt spit through since he 4 feet tall (hes still 4 feet tall).

Think how Weathered feels when a chopper flies for an hour, flushes every single Tahr in a valley (the same Tahr hes spent months glassing, hoping for a glimpse of the right one with enough time to get to it) and then singles out the best, sits his client down (or leaves him in the shooters seat :-() and shoots it. Easy as that. Gutting. It cheapens what we do.

As I have said, like climbing a mountain. Whats the achievement if you simply get dropped at the top by helicopter? I heard a rumor a new chopper has landed on Everest? Do you think rich people will be getting flown to the top for photos and then accuse the Mountaineers of "envy" when the question the validity of the achievement?

To Kududude and the others, everything you need to know about hunting in NZ is on the net. Absolutely everything. We should know, we put it there. Its perfectly feasible to take yourself hunting in NZ and there are always plenty of Kiwis willing to help someone out. You wont be guaranteed an animal, but you will be guaranteed the experience of a lifetime, and one to be proud of.

That was a good post Tussock. Education combined with empathy. This could get across!

- mike

Gidday Meathunta,

If that was an offer to head out for a shot I will definitely take you up on it. The biggest problem is I usually only have mon, tues & weds off.

If you are interested give me a ring at Farmers Eastgate and ask for Hamish and we can see what we can jack up with regards days off etc Ph 3738000 ext 8111 or just pop in if you are in the area.

A man who uses a Tikka T3 in 260 has to be a good bloke

Happy Hunting

Hamish

I am glad this has toned down. The venom that was being spewed was discouraging.

I completely agree with the comment about the choppers flying over an animal that was pursued for a period of time. I had the same thing happen to me while hunting Roosevelt elk in California. After a 3/4 day stalk a Coast Guard heli flew over low and blew my stalk. I was madder than hell. I get it.

Some people are obsessed with trophy heads and the record book. That is certainly, their right to do so. It clearly leads some people to shoot for the record book. Whether it is an ego thing or not, I don't know. It is nevertheless a fact.

Personally, I do find the SCI record book useful in the sense in that it helps me assess the quality of an animal I may have never seen before. I have seen a grand total of 2 tahr my life. If I am looking through a spotting scope trying to study an animal to determine if he is mature and worth shooting, I don't have a clue what I am looking at. Thus I ask the guides opinion. Ask me about a cape buffalo or a kudu or an elk or a whole bunch of other animals that I am familar with and I could make my own determination. Some animals I couldn't. Tahr happens to be one of those.

To Carlsen Highway, I did not meant imply that some things you said were not correct. I was agreeing with you.

I also understand what the kiwis are saying about the free hunting. Those who post on "FishnHunt" probably know that I got numerous offers to take me for free after the Richard Nunnick fiasco. My personality, right or wrong, does not allow me to do something like this with someone I have no idea about.

Even though it may be theoretically possible to do this myself, it is practically impossible. I simply do not have the time to research, make sure I am hunting legally , organize equipment, get it transported and scout. Unfortunately or fortunately, my business interests are far too demanding. When you add on top of that my 2 sons, a girlfriend, an elderly mother, a 96year old grandmother who isn't in good health and other things I like to do such as golf there just isn't enough time. You add on top of that the ruggedness of the country and the fact that I come from a flat tropical area and it could be very dangerous for me to do it alone.

There are without a doubt some guys who will kill any thing at any time. I don't think it has anything to do with economic class. There are certainly less fortunates that will do it. These same guys would do it more if they had more money.

Please do not make the assumption that all of us "tourist hunters"are fat,rich, unethical pieces of shit. I exercise 2 hours a day for my own health and to prepare me for my hunting trips. I am from the sea level flat lands. It still will not completely prepare me. When the outfitter for my upcoming trip asked me about the stag I was looking for my response was:"at this stage of my life it is all about the experience. I would rather kill a 250 class stag after a long stalk requiring patience and perseverance than kill a 500 class stag in a small paddock while shooting out of the truck."

I have killed a hell of a lot of animals in a hell of a lot of places on this planet. I don't alway get my quarry. It is for the new experience. I have spent 63 days in Tanzania without a lion. I passed several. All young. I am fine with that. I don't give a shit about the record book. There are many who come to NZ for the same reason. A new experience. However, there are clearly some that want to kill and see their names in the record book no matter how they do it.

What would you guys recommend that visiting hunters do to make sure they aren't violating any laws? Not just the helicopter thing but if where they are is legal.

Thank you all.

Carlsen, I did not misread your "invatation" I was only explaining why I would not accept such invatation even if one were offered. Have a good day.

Larry, I whole heartedly agree with you. While I have had a dozen guys from a forum, who I had never met before rock up to my house, when they all I arrived all I could do was stand on my veranda and say "right which one of you guys is the murderer". My kiwi sense of humor cant help but be tweaked slightly by the fact you did the right thing, got a reputable kiwi guide and ended up with the dodgyest con man to ever swindle an honest bloke. Please do not be offended by this. Next time you come South (yes I spell that with a capital letter) look me up, we can have a beer in a public place and then we wont be strangers.

I joined this forum in 2005 and Iv barely posted since, this is because the Forum I call home takes more time than I have to spare. I feel your pain Larry, I would rather be hunting (Im stuck in the tropics for work at present, theres a frog the size of my hand in the toilet, what exactly does one do about that?). I think if I was going to a new country to hunt, I would absolutely join the local forum. It cant take longer than finding a guide. I have yet to have a bad experience with someone passionate enough about out sport to spend all their non hunting life on a hunting forum.

As to identifying a big bull Tahr, judging length of horn through a spotting scope is an art. Telling a big bull is not. I have sat on a ridge, hiding behind a tussock with Weathered on one side and Carlsen Highway on the other and looked down at a truly big Bull Tahr. Nothing exudes pure machismo like the true king of the mountain. We did not shoot it. This remains one of the standout experiences of a relatively eventful life (26 years four days ago).

I spend a lot of time in helicopters in NZ, I can say that the kiwi venison pilots are the best in the world, and Iv never flown anywhere else. They are not however always the most scrupulous in the world. Weathered is working hard to try and stop something which is ruining one of the finest hunting experiences in New Zealand, and therefore the world. There are genuine fair chase Tahr hunts on private land in NZ, shooting from a chopper is not necessary.

Cheers

Tussock

I agree with you. This has got to start somewhere. It pains me however when it starts with all of this venom between people that are in all likelyhood in agreement.

What city are you in? I will be down soon. I plan on buying Weathered a drink or 20 while we are in Queenstown.

As for Mr Nunnick, do you think he regrets the day he met us. While he has surely paid a hell of a price, the best is yet to come.

Thanks.

Good weigh in Tussock.

I wanted to bring up Kududes rebuttal or further post that he just made.

He has sort of put his finger on something that's important. NZ hunting or hunters are conflicted. It is a complete contradiction. One we live with all the time. I think that a lot of the frustration that has been vented on this thread can be traced to this conflict. Where hunting and tour animals which are so important to us as hunters and people are still considered worthless by our community.
While at teh same time, the worthlessness of the animals have created a very particular hunting culture, technique and ethic. Where to shoot as many animals as possible regardless of age or sex is seen as a virtue by conservationaists. (DOG's "Greenies") Where the red deer that inhabits the areas our major tourists walking tracks are not even mentioned at all in the advertising litereature or signage - in case the tourists find out they are there - even though the tourists would regard them as an attraction.

A DOC manager quoting that "red deer numbers have definately increased" is the only ustification he feels he needs to mention when talking about 1080'ing a forest again. No studies commissioned, no reports on exactly how the damage the animal do is quantified, not even - according to the DOC website - any goals have been set for deer control.
The fact that there are simply more deer than last time they looked, is quite enough justification without any further investigation.

We owe the freedom of our hunting to the status of the animals as being worthless by our government.
While at the same time, if we are true hunters the animals have a very definate worth to us (no one hunts animals they dont like) that no one will recognise, and we are marginalised by the government dept resonsible. And yet we are members of the community ourselves, and quite often are the only people to venture into these same wild places that the governments stewardship decrees the animals "reduction to the lowest extent possible that resources will allow."

Into the middle of this flies Kudude in a helicopter...
...a man from a country that actually has ethics when it comes to hunting, that regards their own animals as a precious resource...and he's shooting from the chopper.

I mean when you think about it - how many guys you know would turn down a days chopper shooting doing venisen recovery...? I mean honestly.
(I would, but this doenst make my a better person. i am just talking.)
What makes the deer worth less than the tahr or the chamois described in the story?
How do you know what Kudude did with his trophies...are we assumming hes going to mount it on his wall and pretend to peple that he didnt shoot it from a chopper? He posted a photograph on a website of him the chopper and the animal.

The chopper shooters are even lionised by some as were the deer cullers.

What on earth, if anything, does this all mean, and why do we get so angry?

Maybe its becasue when Kudude (or someone )comes over doing this, he is paying to keep things they way they are, he is reinforcing the status Quo. . He's using the worst of our practices, adopting our own disregard for the animals and he's paying to do it...


(BTW Kudude there is no reason why you cannot post further.)

Im live in Oamaru but Im tied up in North Queensland for a bit. I will have to get back soon, theres a brand new, unfired rifle in the cupboard. Let me know when you will be there. Glad you had some success over the Nunnick thing.

Well I've waded through this.

1) I understand that client's are relying on the guide to tell them what is a 'good' tahr, the fact is they have so much pressure on public land because of all the paid chopper tour's as well as the odd local getting out here and there that what is a good one is getting smaller, taht and they've only allowed six hour's for the tahr hunt.

2) The ethic's thing is so easy it's not funny, follow the SCI rule book. I'm sure everything is laid out in black and white in there on what is acceptable and what's not.

But I do note even official types from SCI seem to forget what those rules are when they get out here. Go figure....

Carlsen it is DOJ not DOG, I am insulted .

Damn, I just foung this string and a gentleman posts about his enjoyable hunt and all the NZ greenies crawl out from under their jealous rocks. Thank you highlander for an enjoyable visit but after reading all this crap from your fellow countrymen I will gladly stay away from NZ and spend my USD (which you (not highlander) don't want) in Africa. Thanks but No Thanks.

I agreee 100%, a lot of angry, bitter & jealous people in NZ.

quote:

Originally posted by MotorCity:
Damn, I just foung this string and a gentleman posts about his enjoyable hunt and all the NZ greenies crawl out from under their jealous rocks after reading all this crap I will gladly stay away from NZ and spend my USD in Africa.
I agreee 100%, a lot of angry, bitter & jealous people in NZ.

Just when this was calming down and getting sensible .. no bites from me this time ...

I am beginning to feel the air clearing and all who have posted on this issue now have a better understanding of both sides of the coin. If I have offended anyone I apologise. When it comes to the taking of trophys I am definately old school,and I do understand that many hunters are burdened with time constraints. I myself received, [over forty years ago] enquiries from potential clients who had one or two days and wanted to shoot a Chamois a Tahr,and a Red stag,and, what were the chances of standing shots? Wild animals living in a rugged alpine enviroment, a tough ask.
I know that the guides of today, faced with the same dilemma try to accommodate the demands of the market, after all they probably have kids to feed and a mortgage to meet.
I have no problem with canned hunts conducted on private lands,I don't care if the animal has been hand reared for the gratification of the my dick is bigger than your dick brigade, it is no concern of mine,and I'm certainly not envious.
Canned helicoper hunts on Public land are an entirely different matter. The ''hunters'" and guides involved are getting away with this simply because our own Dept of Conservation is either turning a blind eye to the practice or are too dozy to catch them.It is an illegal activity for which there are penalties.
It is not fair chase to have a helicopter herd an animal into close shooting range, simple as that.

Good luck guys. I think a lot was sorted out.

I leave tomorrow for 2 weeks in NZ after making a stop in LA to visit some friends.

quote:

Originally posted by MotorCity:
Damn, I just foung this string and a gentleman posts about his enjoyable hunt and all the NZ greenies crawl out from under their jealous rocks. Thank you highlander for an enjoyable visit but after reading all this crap from your fellow countrymen I will gladly stay away from NZ and spend my USD (which you (not highlander) don't want) in Africa. Thanks but No Thanks.

I agreee 100%, a lot of angry, bitter & jealous people in NZ.

Thread can be declared 100% successful. Your the kind of joker we can live without., Tell me. how do you kill an animal with a check book? Paper cut? How do you guys sleep at night.


What really gets me is if you go and spend your precious USD in Africa, shoot an elephant with a fifty caliber machine gun, without a license and then posted it here you would get burned down.

Do the equivalent in NZ and we are angry bitter and jealous! Of a ten inch bull! Give me strength.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Good luck guys. I think a lot was sorted out.

I leave tomorrow for 2 weeks in NZ after making a stop in LA to visit some friends.

Best of luck Larry, I wont be in the country. Maybe next time.

Sure has been a passionate and interesting debate. Thanks for posting your hunt kudude it got this whole heli hunting thing out in the open in both a moral and legal sense. Thar and Chamois hunting in the magnificent Southern Alps of New Zealand becomes a passion to the point of addiction to those bitten by the bug of fair chase alpine hunting. I know as I am one. I have gone back yearly from my home in Australia for the last 22 years to the detriment of other hunting opportunities.
Most of my hunts have been self guided. I really don't think that it would be feasible for anyone with dubious fitness and alpine abilities to undertake a thar and chamois hunt self guided. It is a daunting sight to sit in the valley floor and scope out the country that these animals live in. Make no mistake that you can get into serious trouble trying to get into position to shoot and then retrieving the animal if successful.
There is almost no way to absolutely prepare fitness wise for an alpine hunt other than to be climbing as training. I do not want to turn anyone away from taking up a hunt with one of those kiwis but you would want to be very fit and have a good head for heights. My advice to some one with limited time and enough money who isn,t able to get to the desired fitness level for a full blown fairchase alpine hunt should go the estate type hunt (not a heli hunt). I personally have no problem with any one who collects a thar or chamois in this way and then states that they were shot behind wire. It is not an ideal world.
That is my two cents worth.

There is fair chase free range hunting to be had with good access on private land using shanks pony - just not much of it.

Remglenn, there is something to clear up on this game park/estate thing. There are behind the wire hunts for sure and helicopters will commonly live capture chamois on public land (chamois die quickly in captivity of any sort ever seen one in a zoo ?) for release into small paddocks for shooting..... but.....

The majority of high country tahr hunting on private land is to all intents and purposes free range ! there are no fences !

Go with a guide on Erewhon, Mesopotamia, Lillybank, or Glen Lyon and you will find plenty of animals and no fences. If you shun the enclosures and ask to go up the hill most guides will take you there. All the land owners have to do is scare away the heli hunters and shoot everything gang and hey presto you have magnificent trophies. Yes you still drive to the bottom of the hill and the country is still steep but you have time and with persereance you get a great trophy.



A first timer took a 13 inch bull in the snow patch upper center ... that scree is 1 kilometer high by the way.
Bottom right is some camp meat cooling in the shade.
This terrain is considered easy and open but will hold good tahr numbers if the choppers leave them be.

That pic shows just why the men on this forum that truly hunt earn their game,the fella that shoots his from or with the choppers help just dosent cut it no matter how fat his wallet is or how high his trophy wall is and how many this and that he has on it.

Go back to the `60`s in the US where the fat wallet brigade were shooting Bald Eagles with shotguns from planes/choppers...yes Bald Fugn Eagles ffs!

Get a copy of the movie HIGH WILD AND FREE its a hunting vid and has some great stuff in it too...BUT in it the polar bear must have run for 20 miles from a plane,chopper or skiddoo...it is breathing so hard that it cant go any further and then the "hunter?" makes the shot......pooh!


Any advocates for using choppers in collecting game simply arent worth listening too.

Yes that is a good point on the chamois. They are fragile. Was not thinking live capture more behind wire bred animals. Live capture is another emotive issue especially if just dropped into the pen prior to a hunt... I guess I was just trying to say that not everyone can climb the hills but shouln't feel the need for heli hunting as there are alternatives as have been pointed out on this forum.

I knew you hunted high and hard but that photo....HOLY CRAP!

How cool is that....

I've got some serious planning to do!


dan

quote:

Originally posted by woodmanDan:
I knew you hunted high and hard but that photo....HOLY CRAP!
How cool is that....
I've got some serious planning to do!

dan

Mate, that's summer, you should see it now!
Yeah, it's hard work, but a 4 minute mile would be pretty meaningless if you did the first 1600 yards in car. Same deal here

This is the easiest country I have ever shot a Thar in,only three hours of climbing up a creek.

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:Kudude

We were hunting after lunch and, I was in the “shooter’s†position on our first flight. Our guide, Chris, rode in the co-pilot’s seat. When the tahr were spotted, we moved to a snowy ledge below them and Chris got out; I took off my belt, my earphones, and debarked; Chris got the guns, both shotgun and rifle, off the floor in back. The helo moved off and stayed in contact with Chris by radio. We got set, and were told the tahr were coming right down at us. In about 10 seconds, the tahr came over the rock above me about 15yds away, tried to stop when he saw me, but his momentum carried him on over at which point he jumped. As he came past, I just looked over the barrel of the 30-06 BAR and pulled the trigger. He went right down hit in the neck. He slid down the mountain about 100ft and we had to lift him down to the river for trophy photos.

And

...distressed by how I how I had to shoot my chamois which ended up being from the helo. This is not how it is generally done, which is like the tahr. However, we had eight hunters who eight hunters who had to have their shot in one day before a front moved in and shut it down.

How long after you debarked before you were radioed, and the tahr came RUNNING at you? 10 minutes? Now why would he do that? Maybe because he was running away from something? Like your ride in?

And you didn't see anything wrong or suspicious with this during your 'hunt'? You HAD to shoot? Seems to me that the only time I'd HAVE to shoot anything is if there's something, man or beast, trying to kill/injur me or mine. HAD TO? Gimme'a break. You're rationalizing something you don't feel proud of. For good reason.

My opinion may not popluar with my countrymen, but I can't with any honesty say that I'm anything another than flat-out disgusted. Fucking shameful, the whole thing, not to mention apparently illegal in more ways than one. Now who wants to bet a sixpack that I get called a Massachusetts liberal greenie/lesbian or some variation inside 10 posts?

KG

Edited for clarity.

Come on K, tell us how you really feel!

All in all, this has been a very enlightening thread. I hope to hunt NZ one day, and I've certainly learned a lot here.

quote:

but I can't with any honesty say that I'm anything another than flat-out disgusted. Fucking shameful, the whole thing, not to mention apparently illegal in more ways than one.

Good onya Kamo.

quote:

Originally posted by Kamo Gari:
Now who wants to bet a sixpack that I get called a Massachusetts liberal greenie/lesbian or some variation inside 10 posts?

KG

No takers on that bet from New Zealand ..... but I would buy you one.

Thats three posts


.

Kamo Gari's a Massachusetts liberal greenie/lesbian.....

weathered made me say that...

But I want NZ beer,not Sam Adams,and you must buy it where its made.I will go with you to make sure you get the real stuff...

dan


and for those who keep track of such things,I just increased my post count by ...one (someday I'll know something)

quote:

Originally posted by woodmanDan:
Kamo Gari's a Massachusetts liberal greenie/lesbian.....

DAMN. I TOLE YA!

KG

Would be great if a lot of like minded people to Kamo turned up at SCI convention in Reno and told those outfitters selling heli hunts that they don't support this type of "hunting" at all. Sadly I bet that there are people, even those who have read this thread, who will still be found lining up at these shonksters booths for the chance to collect New Zealands alpine MONARCHS.
I find it quite sad that we have allowed the name calling to encroach upon this forum. In the end it comes down to a persons own hunting morals and ethics. The clear message from the Kiwis on this thread is that heli hunting is not at present Legal!!!! If paying clients shun it, it will cease..