quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
For me, anybody who shoots a trophy animal from a helicopter or after its been chased or herded by helicopter is not "hunting" and the "trophy" has no more validity than the rabbits I shoot out of the window of my 4x4 while doing pest control.

I only shoot trophy rabbits myself, I feel guilty night shooting them though. (And before anyone asks, yes we do do rabbit control from the air to, price, well, how big is your wallet)

quote:

Originally posted by wirehunt:
I only shoot trophy rabbits myself, I feel guilty night shooting them though. (And before anyone asks, yes we do do rabbit control from the air to, price, well, how big is your wallet)

That takes some guts wirehunt ... Is it just you and your 404 jeffrey between a charging bull bunny and the carrot patch

Do you get full size or just shoulder mounts ?

I've worked out two thing's with an enraged rabbit, the first is by the time you fire the 404 and reloaded you can have 20 shots off from the 223, ergo, the 223 is more effective than the Jeffrey's cause you've got more lead in the air. 2) Watch out from the choking hazard from all the rabbit hair in the air.

I only shoot rabbit's to donoate the meat, I couldn't claim one as a trophy as most are shot from, or very close to a vehicle so cannot be claimed properly.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
Interesting debate and one I am glad to see happening....

For me, anybody who shoots a trophy animal from a helicopter or after its been chased or herded by helicopter is not "hunting" and the "trophy" has no more validity than the rabbits I shoot out of the window of my 4x4 while doing pest control.

Yep.

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
He hunted according to the way the hunting company operates. It isnt he who is at fault but the company guiding him.

.

That is irrelevant - under the Lacey Act in the USA the hunter themself can be charged when they try to import their trophies.

It is totally illegal for recreational hunters to shoot from a helicopter in NZ, just as it is in Australia and the USA too I believe. Many outfitters stretch the laws at times by allowing drop-offs near animals but they totally cross the line when they allow the hunters to shoot from the air.

I'd be asking Shane Quinn to clarify this for you. I'm sure he wouldnt want a replay of the recent court action against hunters and agents in the USA.
Court Case

Matt are you sure shooting from a helicopter is illegal in Australia? Have not heard that it is illegal.

Some NT outfitters are openly advertising helicopter shooting for wild pigs at $8000 per day, 6hrs helicopter time. I know you guide in the NT so must know who they are.

Regards
JohnT

JohnT

I am absolutely 1000% certain that you cannot jump in a helicopter and start shooting. Firstly the helo pilot and machine must be rated for such 'work' (not tourism/charter) and the shooter must be qualified too. You cant just do it for 'shits and giggles'!!

There is no problem (legally) using a helo to drive game to a hunter though - this is fairly common and that is what some of the outfitters may be advertising - it is up to them whether they follow the law or not.

If there are outfitters running helo hunts (where you shoot from the air) then they should be reported - because it is illegal...

It wouldnt be the first time outfitters in the NT offered illegal hunts - would it??
There is one at the moment with trophy fees on 'dingo' and that is totally illegal too...

Cheers for now
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by wirehunt:
I've worked out two thing's with an enraged rabbit, the first is by the time you fire the 404 and reloaded you can have 20 shots off from the 223

I prefer the .303 more damage than the .223, and just as fast or faster 10 rounds rapid :P

Further on this helicopter hunting topic - from today's The Hunting Report....

"Over in New Zealand you may
have heard a rumor that the use of
helicopters while hunting has been
banned. According Mike Hodder,
president of the New Zealand Professional
Hunting Guides Association
(NZPHGA), that is not correct, although
the practice currently is under
much scrutiny. Hodder says that
the New Zealand Department of
Conservation (DOC) has been
closely monitoring the use of choppers
by hunting guides with their
clients for some months now. The
DOC took one company to court recently,
but the case was dismissed
because no actual law had apparently
been broken, even though the
actual hunt did not comply with
various regulations governing the
helicopter industry. “At this point
there is much confusion as to what
is and what is not legal,†says
Hodder.
In a proactive effort to resolve
the issue, the NZPHGA has called a
special general meeting of its membership
for early October to hammer
out clear rules, ethics and regulations
under which chopper-assisted
hunting with clients may be undertaken.
Hodder says they have even
invited the DOC to attend and inform
the group of the legal aspects
involved.
The Hunting Report will continue
to monitor this issue and report
on any developments. In the
meantime, here’s what our New
Zealand correspondent Greg Morton
had to say about the use of helicopters
in the New Zealand Country Report
he just produced for us. The
New Zealand Country Report is
modeled after the Zambia Country
Report we introduced last year.
Morton writes, “There are a number
of rules pertaining to the use of helicopters.
The first and most important
is that the use of helicopters for
accessing difficult terrain and locating
game is legal, but permission to
enter land for the purpose of hunting
must have been gained in advance
of the trip. In private land
situations the helicopter and guiding
operator must have landowner
permission to be there, and on public
land the hunting operator must
have the correct government concession
and hunting permits. All paperwork
must be current.
“The state owns wild game in
New Zealand, so helicopter operators
must have a commercial venison
recovery concession to hunt on
public land, and hunting operators
must have a Department of Conservation
hunting concession for the
area where they are seeking game.
Clients traveling with a guide
should also have DOC hunting permits
if they intend on shooting at
sighted game. Members of the New
Zealand Professional Hunting
Guides Association receive access to
DOC concessions with their membership
to that organization. If a
guide hunts public land without a
concession, and without hunting
permits for his clients he is acting
illegally.
“What is also illegal on public
land is removing the door from the
passenger side of the helicopter and
allowing the client to shoot animals
from the air. This is considered commercial
game recovery, and to be legal
the client would need to be a
registered shooter with the helicopter
company, which in turn must
have a wild game recovery license
to shoot feral game. A short-term
visitor to New Zealand does not
qualify as a registered meat shooter,
however much a company may like
to argue the point. There are a
couple of cases concerning helicopter
activities before the law courts at
present, and it is almost certain that
DOC public land hunting regulations
and general aviation safety aspects
of helicopter hunting will be
tightened rather than loosened in
the future. If a NZPHGA guide member
is found to have allowed clients
to shoot from the air, he faces expulsion
from the organization, and as a
result will lose client credibility and
be ineligible to secure a booth at the
Dallas Hunting Convention.â€
(Postscript: The New Zealand Country
Report will be available later
this month. To reserve your copy
call The Hunting Report at 305-670-
1361, or send an e-mail to info@
huntingreport.com.)"

Condition 2 of a WARO concession specifically excludes the carriage of fare paying passengers or recreational hunters. Guides are unable to legally operate trophy hunting operations with clients uinder WARO.

There are no concessions allowing for guided helicopter hunting for recreational or guided hunters on DoC land in New Zealand.
Hayden Porrit, Department of Conservation concessions manager Christchurch, New Zealand.

It is a joke, I turn up kick a few doors in, burn a few people, write a few letters and all of a sudden the NZPHGA are going to make an illegal activity illegal in their own membership

Do you want a list of the most frequent flyers start with the NZPHGA president and work down the exec.

There are 120 odd WARO's and only 14-20 of them are held by legitimate meat recovery operators.
WARO's are going to be taken from operators who cater to heli hunters and this is an attempt to avoid the consequences.

If some could have sued my ass in New Zealand they would have got me already.
I have no trust in NZPHGA executive and would happily place a metaphorical boot on their throat and put a rhetorical bullet collectively between their beady little eyes.

For those prospective hunters coming to NZ...

There are a number of outfitters who offer excellent free-range, private land hunting for trophy bull tahr - without the need for helicopters.

Just ask if you want to know who...

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:

It is a joke, I turn up kick a few doors in, burn a few people, write a few letters and all of a sudden the NZPHGA are going to make an illegal activity illegal in their own membership

I've got a few wet bus tickets, I'll send them to the NZPHGA, and they can practise slapping each other.

Just send them all to me Shanksp,I'll deliver them personally.Save you some postage.
Interesting that DOC lost the case that they brought against Mt Hutt helicopters last week.
Would seem that the judge does'nt agree with alot of whats being stated here,
Weathered, any comment.

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
Just send them all to me Shanksp,I'll deliver them personally.Save you some postage.
Interesting that DOC lost the case that they brought against Mt Hutt helicopters last week.
Would seem that the judge does'nt agree with alot of whats being stated here,
Weathered, any comment.

Thanks Highlander, of the 15 breaches discovered against Mt Hutt helicopters the DoC solicitor chose to pursue only 2 which were soft charges detailing Mt Hutts breach of WARO concession. Mt Hutt were found to have breached their period of WARO operation which is a contractual issue with DoC. The charges as presented were dismissed which is not the same as innocent.
The two clients were lucky not to face charges under section 38 of the conservation act. There is the possibility of a civil suit which may be pursued, that is being further explored.
Mt Hutts WARO concessions are under threat and there is mounting pressure to have their WARO suspended.
It would not surprise me if DoC Wanaka are not shortly under internal investigation related to guided heli hunting.
I believe DoC have forgotten some sections of the conservation act, DoC are reluctant to protect New Zealand hunters rights to recreate in peace and quiet. New Zealand Hunters are now reminding DoC they don't get to choose which parts of the conservation act they want to enforce.

At one level this case calls into question DoC's legal capability to discharge their obligations to New Zealand hunters; however contractual breaches of WARO can be punished by suspension of WARO and you don't even need a judge for that. You may find Mt Hutt could be WAROless within 6 months

Hi men, good to see this post back on the issue.

I would like to point out that not all NZPHGA members are heli-hunters. some of us run genuine hunting safaris, instead of trophy collecting exercises.

I have turned away more than one client this year who has asked to use a helicopter to locate and assist with shooting tahr and chamois.

I myself can not afford to turn down such enquiries, but I do and believe in the long run I will benefit as hunters realise they will get a genuine hunt with me.

The up coming special meeting in October will be very interesting. Things have come a long way from a few genuine guides banging our heads against the wall with what to do about heli-hunting to a special meeting being called to deal with the issue. Not without some hard work I might add.

I accept there are some very fine guides and in my previous post I directed my comment to the NPHGA executive who have failed to provide any leadership in this matter and do in fact conduct a great deal of the illegal heli hunts themselves in New Zealand.
NZPHGA has lied to you all. Within the constraints of a guided hunt it is not legal to use a helicopter to locate and hunt game. Helicopters are used to access the designated landing sites nothing else. WARO operators are allowed to pursue and hunt for meat recovery but the carriage of fare paying passengers or hunters is excluded. You cannot use a helicopter to access and hunt tahr on public land as a NZPHGA member. I challenge the NZPHGA to produce one document ... just one that will show they are legally entitled to conduct heli hunts on DoC land.

I have cited WARO's, relevant sections of the conservation act and a direct quote from the concessions manager of the New Zealand Department of Donservation ... heli guides your turn.

To some of you NZ/Aus guides who don't like heli hunting you can do something about it. Until you do you will be painted with the same brush as your heli guides and that is a shame

I am off the net for a few days will be in Los Angeles and Houston over the weekend anyone state side PM me

I am not an advocate of the helicopter hunting. Personally I would not do it. However,this whole thing sure as hell seems confusing to me from a legal perspective. Personally I wouldn't have a clue what was allowed and where it was allowed. It seems that some use of helicopters is allowed under certain circumstances in certain locations but not allowed in others. It seems to me that at some point a visiting hunter is going to have to rely on the company they have booked with. Unfortunately, it appears that these companies may not always be reliable.

I would not want any trouble with authorities either here or in any other country. It seems to me the safe thing to do is not set foot on a helicopter except for sightseeing.

Larry, It's really very simple. On public land in NZ.... if you are a charter customer or a fare paying customer you MAY NOT hunt, shoot, locate game, herd game etc from a helicopter .
YOU MAY be delivered to a designated landing site. Landing sites are designated by the authorities in NZ. THAT IS ALL.

The only time that a helicopter can be used in the above fashion is if you are on/over private land or you are a paid employee/contractor of an operator carrying out WARO activities, which I can assure does NOT include any visting or local recreational hunter.

The point is how would one know what was or was not public land.

Doesn't matter to me as I won't do it under any circumstance.

I do have to admit that i rather enjoyed my helicopter tour. Amazing sights.

Easier just not to get involved in helo-hunting at all!!

Getting dropped-off somewhere (official landing sites or not) is one thing but all the other stuff is just bullshit.

quote:

For me, anybody who shoots a trophy animal from a helicopter or after its been chased or herded by helicopter is not "hunting" and the "trophy" has no more validity than the rabbits I shoot out of the window of my 4x4 while doing pest control.

Same goes for shooting tame deer in a paddock. Whether it is expressly prohibited by statute or not isn't really the point: it isn't something to fill you with any sense of achievement, is it?

That maybe so,but at least that is carried out on private lands and is their own business. It is the encroachng on public lands by helicopter borne head collectors that is riling NZ trophy hunters. Foot hunters cannot compete with a helicoptor,and why should they have to,after all it is illegal.
NZ Govt authorities should be sorting this out quickly. Forty years ago during the venison recovery wars helicopters were shot at in the air,and sabotaged on the ground. I for one wouldn't hunt in one in NZ even if I wanted to.
It could cause a political storm if some nutter took it upon himself to loose off a shot.

Matt Graham hit the nail on the head "Easier just not to get involved in helo-hunting at all!!"

As Larry pointed out he enjoyed his scenic helicopter flight. Most free-range chamois hunts on the south islands west coast will include a helicopter flight to a designated landing site, Generally this is where a base camp is set up.

I feel the war for Bull tahr is only beginning. There are only so many tahr valleys out there within 5000km2 area.

Just to be clear, our helicopter ride was sight seeing. It had absolutely nothing to do with hunting. It was one of the more memorable aspects of the trip.

Ethical -freeranger you have a PM.

quote:

I feel the war for Bull tahr is only beginning. There are only so many tahr valleys out there within 5000km2 area.

I hope your wrong, but my gut tells me you're right, theres just so much money tied up with this species. The next great attack is going to be live capture I fear.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Easier just not to get involved in helo-hunting at all!!

Getting dropped-off somewhere (official landing sites or not) is one thing but all the other stuff is just bullshit.

It's not a complicated issue at all.

As Matt say above, use a chopper if you want to get dropped off at a suitable altitude and then HUNT. Using a chopper to spot game, herd game towards you or shooting a game animal from a chopper is not hunting. SIMPLE.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Easier just not to get involved in helo-hunting at all!!

Getting dropped-off somewhere (official landing sites or not) is one thing but all the other stuff is just bullshit.

It's not a complicated issue at all.

As Matt say above, use a chopper if you want to get dropped off at a suitable altitude and then HUNT. Using a chopper to spot game, herd game towards you or shooting a game animal from a chopper is not hunting. SIMPLE.

Fookin' a right it's not. Anyone says different, they're bullshitting themselves.

KG

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:
I accept there are some very fine guides and in my previous post I directed my comment to the NPHGA executive who have failed to provide any leadership in this matter and do in fact conduct a great deal of the illegal heli hunts themselves in New Zealand.
NZPHGA has lied to you all.
To some of you NZ/Aus guides who don't like heli hunting you can do something about it. Until you do you will be painted with the same brush as your heli guides and that is a shame

We are doing something about it, we don't belong.....
There is no legal requirement to be a member, and until that changes I will not be joining. Too busy doing 20+ foot hunts a season for Tahr anyway!!!

To go back to Kudude's post for a moment, if eight shooters are shooting chamois out of one helicopter in one day, does that mean the shooters each pay one eighth of a days fees ??
Also, if hunting in New Zealand is free, and the shooters are paying a trophy fee for each animal according to quality, where is that money going ?? And what a nice shiny helicopter is being provided to shoot out of !! I wonder what sort of cars are parked in the operators driveways.

flmthrwr Not one cent from any guided hunt on public land goes back to support the animals or habitat they were taken from.

Are you not surprised then that NZers don't care for hunts like kududes

Tahrman you foot hunt private land whats that got to do with this ? except you wanted to say how busy you are you, you better hope the down turn in the US economy doesn't send you under as 30 % of the guides in NZ are facing that prospect now.... and a bloody good thing that is too .... except maybe 60% of NZ's hunting guides going under would be better after hearing about the last NZPHGA meeting

So they had a meeting with reps from DoC and CAA there talking. What was the outcome? Legal or not?
We all know the answer to the question of ethics.............

Business as usual after Colin Withnall QC rendered a legal opinion and Harvey Hutton of backcountry claimed to have a concession for heli-hunting. The guides took no action. This is at conflict with the report I hold detailing the Department of Conservations veiw of their WARO concessions

HHHHHHHHHmmmmmmmmmmmmmm DoC had somebody there I heard, what did he say? Or were they too chicken to actually commit to making a decision!!
Sounds like a load of bollocks to me, after all that has gone on and the Status Quo remains???????
Advice to Alien hunters, avoid the potential headache!

You interested in what the DoC guy had to say!
Get off your high seat and do yourself, your clients and the guides a favor and join the association. Put up or shut up.
I getting a tad bored with people that snipe from the sidelines. Gurrrr

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
You interested in what the DoC guy had to say!
Get off your high seat and do yourself, your clients and the guides a favor and join the association. Put up or shut up.
I getting a tad bored with people that snipe from the sidelines. Gurrrr

Well Put Highlander I Agree those few guides with the balls to stand on principle need support.


what did I just say ! must be the medication ....

Tahrman

We are doing something about it, we don't belong.....
There is no legal requirement to be a member, and until that changes I will not be joining. Too busy doing 20+ foot hunts a season for Tahr anyway!!!

I once thought like this but after talking to some very respectable guides who are members of NZPHGA, I thought hey not all of these guys are arseholes. As they said to me and as Highlander has said below, at least if you join you can have a voice.

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
You interested in what the DoC guy had to say!
Get off your high seat and do yourself, your clients and the guides a favor and join the association. Put up or shut up.

Surely you jest!
Name one thing one thing positive the NZPHGA has done in the last 5 years?
All they ever do is cave in to DoC and the Govt and most (not all) are hypocrites.

Dollar at .57 US cents should be a good season Weathered...................

quote:

Originally posted by Tahrman:
Name one thing one thing positive the NZPHGA has done in the last 5 years?
All they ever do is cave in to DoC and the Govt and most (not all) are hypocrites.

Dollar at .57 US cents should be a good season Weathered...................

From where I sit they never do what DoC ask them to do or obey the law I think DoC cave in to the guides

It could be .50 and it would not matter I know the US market (finance) and it is dead in the water for now. The people I listen to in the guide business are a well positioned to know whats happening and it looks grim.

I totally agree with you about the US market Weathered, what a mess!!!! and they haven't bottomed out yet me thinks.
It certainly pays not have all your eggs in one basket as the saying goes.