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Where is the best place to go for a quality Red Stag over 400" in New Zealand? I know Shane Quinn has great hunts, but his prices start at $15,000 USD for a 400" stag. Surely there are some places that aren't quite so expensive....perhaps toward the end of the hunting season? Thanks. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | ||
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Any stags that big in NZ probably come from behind fences. If you want the chance at a really big stag and want to do it free range for a lower price, check into Bulgaria. I was there a few years ago on port visit in Varna and got into the woods. There are some monsters there and it is usually off the radar of the Americans. Which means the price is much lower. Food for thought. | |||
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John Scurr at Cardrona Safaris Jim Hunter at Glenroy Lodge Will J. Parks, III | |||
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That's about what you would pay in NZ (governed mainly by the landowners) - a bit over half that price in Australia - we just dont have as many 400+ stags.... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Hmmm....didn't even realize there were any stags that big anywhere in Australia. Can you recommend any outfits? _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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 of course!! Hunt Australia!! Mate shoot me an email and even if I cant help you I can give you some extra pointers with New Zealand... email - office at huntaust.com.au Cheers Matt A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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400 DS or SCI red stag's are more than rare in New Zealand. If you were to find one, he'd be in the deepest, darkest valley and you'd need a lot of time, knowledge and fitness. Hence, hunting them is difficult. On the other hand, shooting them is a simple matter and there are a lot of outfitters who will help. South Island is the best place to look and there are some magnificent animals to choose from on the farms down there. | |||
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OK - I think everyone here is aware that a 400SCI animal is going to be taken in a game preserve/ranch!!  A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Yep - when you see that sort of deer in your minds eye , take particular note of the high fence that he is standing besides.... And if he isnt beside a deer fence its because he was released yesterday and chased away from the fence ten minutes before you arrived.... That size deer will be farm-raised and not wild. Does that still make him an international trophy? ________________________ Old enough to know better | |||
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bla bla bla - YES muzza - game ranch means there is a high-fence there somewhere... move on....How you KNOW he will either be standing beside the high-fence or dropped out yesterday is some incredible extra-sensory perception on your part!!!  | |||
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I dont have a problem with farm-raised deer Matt . I have a problem with them being released out side the fence and "free-range" hunted the next day . If its a farmed deer then that should be made clear up-front so there are no false impressions or expectations involved. As you well know - you are very unlikely to find a truly wild-bred red stag in the 400" SCI range in this country. I dont like eating red deer so I'm moving along as I type..... No ESP on my part - I just live here and know how the world operates... ________________________ Old enough to know better | |||
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LOL. You guys crack me up sometimes. Who can do a hunt for a 400" stag... I can get you such a stag. I buy them off a farmer in February and then in April I walk my American and German clients over the hills for three days and then on the last day I bring you to him... There are no wild stags in NZ of this size. Period. There is livestock specially raised just for hunting customers from the States and Germany. As long as you are aware of this. It is not possible to hunt such a deer without being lied to or deceived. Again, as long as you are aware of this. I don't think you guys can really understand the low depths that people will go to if they think they can get 15,000 off you. Think the worst. MATT - this is not ESP this is common knowledge, and also common sense if you know the hunting scene in NZ. Its simply not possible. | |||
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Well I guess I didn't realize that ALL the big stags in New Zealand were pen-raised. I was under the impression there were some large properties (high fenced) that were just managed very well to produce large animals....which were still wild and self-sustaining. If it's really as bad as "Carlsen Highway" and "muzza" claim it is....then I would have a better hunt on some properties here in Texas. I can find 400" stags here in Texas for quite a bit less than $15k. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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Yes, it is true. And seriously, if you know a property in Texas that has wild free range red stags of that size then you should consider it. If however, you wish to hunt NZ for the experience, then you should modify your expectations of trophy size and go with a guide that does not gaurantee animals of trophy size, or 'silver medal or gold etc..' Additionally, as a rule of thumb, if you are paying a large 'trophy fee" on top of a day rate, then you are looking at farm raised stock, as some of that will go to the farmer that raised the animal.(Or is put towards the cost of buying it from him.) There is no such thing as a trophy fee to pay in NZ as it is understood overseas, in these cases it is simply an arbitrary charge. Truly wild deer are owned by the Crown in this country - even if you find it on private land. It belongs to you once you shoot it. | |||
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I was overseas a while ago, when A hunter from the country I was in came up and showed me pictures of his hunt in NZ. I said they looked nice. He showed me some more and I said they looked nice. He looked at me puzzled and walked away. My friend said "you were very polite?" I replied "I'm not going to embarrass him amongst his friends in his country." Muzza and Carlson have it absolutely right. | |||
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Oh yes - I especially hate the 'release and call it free-range' deal... but we are not talking about that we are talking about up-front - 'this is a game ranch hunt'... I would like to point out that 90% on the hunts that I conduct are actual proper free-range hunts... the rest are game ranch hunts, in ranch areas of various sizes and terrain - sizes varying from 1000 acres to 60,000 acres. The majority of the trophy animals in these ranches are bred there in that location. Anyone who knows me or has hunted with me knows that I do NOT lie about free-range and game ranch animals. Since most of our hunts are free range I cannot afford to lie, as my reputation rests on that fact and others.... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Not once did I say that there were wild 400 class stags to hunt. I just said that there is no way to assume that there is a fence right next to the stag as Muzz suggested. It is certainly possible to breed a 400 class stag in a game park and it does happen... whether that is your idea of hunting or not is totally up to you - I could care less??? Why dont you do on over to the African forum and hassle the South African ranchers over there, who buy trophy animals from the auctions every year, who not get some sport over there?? I never understand why NZ hunters have such a problem with O/S hunters coming out there and taking red stags in game park... how does that affect you??? Does it give you some inferiority complex or something??? I get the tahr thing with the choppers... I really do get it. I LOVE truely wild red stag hunting in NZ and I do push hunters to do that ... but if hunters want to whack a huge red stag - whats the problem??? No harm - no foul!! All you are doing is telling O/S visitors that Kiwis are a bunch of liers and wowsers. These are people who want to come to your country and HAVE A GOOD TIME and maybe shoot a critter - NOT be preached to!!! | |||
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Matt, I dont have a dog in this fight but I can explain to you why the average "older" kiwi has a problem with the "trophy" stags being shot behind a high fence. As you know there is no season, bag limits, or restrictions of any sort to manage the herds in NZ for hunting. Over the last 50 years they have been decimated by cullers, meat hunters, helicopters, spot lighters and private hunters etc. As a result the deer feed at 35mph and from the early 80's onwards, this continuous slaughter made it very difficult for the average guy to even see a deer in 3 or 5 days hunting (on public land), let a lone shoot one, let alone shoot a 300", 12 point red stag, in a life time. So for a foreign hunter to wander into a fenced area with a fat cheque book to shoot (not hunt) a specially bred farm stag simply to massage his ego gets up some Kiwis noses. This is because the average Kiwi knows that almost none of these "hunters" would be able to carry 60lb a pack into the bush, find a free range animal, shoot it, butcher it and carry it out on their back through some of the nastiest mountains, rivers, scrub and bush on the planet. It is the sweat and effort of their last hunt that the average Kiwi has in his mind when they see the videos being promoted by the Safari companies of the sweatless rotund client sitting a top of a monster stag next to a quad. The Safari park hunt is a complete and utter fairy tale, when compared to a public land free range hunt in N.Z, and thats a fact. But then Hollywood and Disneyland are also lands of fantasy and they too are big business selling fiction. It doesnt take a mental giant to figure out that there are standards of "hunting ethics" or hunter's integrity being bent or broken in the sole quest of bigger bone rather than the quality of the hunt. Not many behind wire hunts are that, hunts. I have a few American friends who after hunting in the tussock lands of the South Island go home with a rather foul taste in their mouth after they shot their stags in the big pen. Some of them have not wanted to pull the trigger, but have under duress. The difference between hunting behind the high fence in Africa and in N.Z is primarily that in Africa they dont have geneticists breeding fenced Kudu with 75" horns, or 25" bushbuck, or 65" Sable to be then released and shot by the highest bidder. Sure the game densities are no doubt higher behind wire in Africa but not to the extent they often are in N.Z. In an African game park I dont think you will find 10 monster Kudu bulls standing out in the open in a group to essentially let the client choose which one they would like to have hanging on the wall, like a shopping trip to the mall. In N.Z this often the case. No real hunter would believe that this is possible in a wild environment. It just doesnt happen. But there is no law against fantasy or fiction. But this is probably another splinter that continually works its way into the mind of the average Kiwi hunter. I hope this gives you some insight as to how and why the average Kiwi hunter has issues with "behind wire, hunts". The gap is huge between the free range and the other options... These opinions against are as valid as those that promote the fantasy, No? | |||
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Hey Matt, Firstly I would say that when it comes to Aussy hunting, I would believe exactly what you tell us, no problem there. The rest, we don't go into the African section and bag them because its not our place too, thats the right of the african hunters if they wish, and I see it do's happen occasionally. Simply, most of us see the farm reared, behind the wire stuff as a degradation of hunting, and worse, its sold on the back of the image of the free range, magnificent herd and culture of public land trophy hunting that has been long since destroyed. They are using our heritage to sell a bastard mutant. I don't know that we are saying that kiwis are a bunch of liars or wowsers, but we are defiantly telling the truth, saying we don't like whats happened to our heritage, and saying you cannot trust many of the guides to provide you with something of integrity. I have actually don't have a huge problem with game farms, but NZ is small, and in most kiwi hunters year, we come across hunters who have used these services. Not one tells you they shot it in a pen or easy paddock. everyone tells you how they climb mountains, and did all this hard work and makes a grand story of their hunt. Its just very hard to swallow knowing the truth. I'm all for trophy hunting, and good guides, hell I imagine I'll see you one day when I can do a buff hunt, but sadly, Here in new Zealand, we have managed to turn a section of hunting into disneyland. | |||
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Couldn't put it any better. It's all about distinguishing between hunting and shooting. I don't have a problem with either as long as it's clear. The choice tourist hunters face between a 2-300 SCI free range red and a 400 SCI red is a choice between hunting and shooting. So, unfortunately, if you've come over to NZ and shot a 400 SCI red stag chances are you were not hunting. Sam Wise | |||
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Yeah look I understand that there are a lot of outfitters in New Zealand that just simply make a farce out of the whole thing. I mean there are 70 something outfitters and many of them would cut the next guys throat to get work - so will just do anything to make the 'hunt' happen. I avoid that stuff like the plague and I would rather not book a hunt that have someone come back from NZ with a foul taste in their mouth. There is a reason why NZ is seen as a one-off trip for most O/S (Northern Hemisphere) hunters... repeat business is low. Sliding scale of prices (on red stag) does nothing to encourage repeat business - I dont care how much money you have - US hunters HATE it!! BTW - I knew that my initial response above would illicit a response, it does just shock me a little at how negative the response is!! for me the truth is always the most important thing - in life and in business. That is all I would ask of any outfitter on any hunt - tell the truth. Sadly many kiwi outfitters do not seem to be able to tell the truth, not even close to it. "The Safari park hunt is a complete and utter fairy tale, when compared to a public land free range hunt in N.Z, and thats a fact." Yes of course this is 100% correct!! You cannot compare the two... You also make an excellent point about the size of New Zealand being a factor. It must be hard for NZ hunters - to have it shoved in your face, as it were. It does surprise me that the whole game ranch thing in Australia (after a rocky start) has been much more widely accepted by Aussie hunters and a LOT of Aussies (and Kiwis too!!) take advantage of them. I suspect that this has been mainly due to the fact that some of these parks are very large, so it was seen as somewhat acceptable by many. The size of the country also lends itself to 'out of sight out of mind" and to many Aussie hunters they dont care if someone else wants to hunt them - "whatever blows your hair back" being the attitude. It would shock you to learn how many southern hemisphere hunters take advantage of game ranch hunts here now. for New Zealand it is simple economics - you want tourists to come there and help with your economy. Hunters want to come and they will spend goodly amounts of money to have a good time and take home a nice trophy (remember the guys chasing the 400+ animals are in a minority) too!. With red stags you will never get the results in the wild so game parks are the ONLY option to fill this need. It is all in how you get from A to B that matters - what experience will the 'hunters' go away with?? | |||
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The fact is though Sam - there are an aweful lot of different experiences between those two extremes you mention above. It is only right to acknowledge that. 400-class ranch-bred stags are $15,000 in New Zealand - so relatively few hunters are going to shoot one!! Not every O/S hunter who comes to NZ are rich fat buggers!! | |||
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Shanks - it is difficult to look a fellow hunter in the eye and tell him that his animals that he took are shit and that his experiences are totally fake!! Some do it easily from the comfort of their laptop though!! | |||
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There are well managed propertys as you describe but not with 400 stags on them. There is a real risk of poaching everywhere and such a stag represents a serious investment (if only in time)to risk being alowed to remain free range. If you want the experience and are happy to compromise trophy size you can buy access to good representative stags or you will have to put in the hard yards and a lot of time on public land for whatever is left over. | |||
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There are actually some places carrying 400 class stags - just not very many (places or stags). People will tell you that it is not possible to breed & grow a 400 class stags in a proper game park but that is simply not true... it is just very difficult, without improved nutrition & other conditions. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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To be brutally honest I couldn't give a damn about a 400 class head. To my eye they're an abomination, just plain butt ugly. I would be very, very happy with a well shaped and proportioned 12 or 14 pointer and to hell with the score. | |||
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abomination??? Geez that's a bit tough on the poor deer!!! They do grow to that size naturally you know!!  Back in the past their were some HUGE heads shot in NZ - back before the govt decimated the gene pool.What about a 350 class head - would you like to shoot one like that in the wild John?? Shit I would!!! | |||
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I think this is where the confusion is coming from. I've seen very little critisizim of, or singling out of an individual hunter for shooting a game park stag, in fact I can't think of any. Mostly we just shut our mouths. We are criticizing the operators who are selling a sham, while warning hunters what the opinion will be. If you can give me an example of where I, or any other kiwi have said someones head is shit, please correct me. Most of our ire is directed at the guides who perpetuate this activity. We don't have a lot of respect for guys who shoot animals behind wire under NZ behind wire conditions, but by and large we don't disrespect them. Please don't confuse our anger at the industry, for an aggression towards individual visitors. | |||
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The gene pool is not decimated, its still there, the animals just aren't getting the chance to live long enough to bear fruit. Its the tie up in unrestricted commercialism that links all these related issues that is the major problem. What about a 350 class head - would you like to shoot one like that in the wild John?? Shit I would!!! | |||
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I don't think the problem in Australia is genetics, I think it is water, feed and poaching. I have seen some good heads, maybe not the Easern Europe or Kiwi 400 inch heads, but if they were allowed to live 8 or 9 years, and had decent feed they'd be huge. | |||
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You dont think that there are some defects and deficiencies in wild NZ herds (esp SI) that could have been exacerbated by widespread culling. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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True enough, but I think the overriding trend is for overseas hunters to believe that bigger is better, even if it isn't real. The reason so many hunters come over and expect to shoot such giant stags is because they believe that's the norm here. What they're actually given, however, is a condensed, romantic, hollywoodised version of hunting in NZ that bears no resemblance to what it's really like. It's a shame that these hunters are seemingly not interested in the hardships of hunting, they're just after the rewards, quick and easy. I guess you may be on to something when you suggest that Kiwi hunters may be prone to a bit of irritation, or even jealousy of some sort, over others coming in and shooting something that few real hunters who've spent years in the NZ hills would even dream of seeing in the wild. It took me over a year to shoot my first deer, a sika spiker. Most tourist hunters are on the farm for a couple of days and have three or four stags, thar and chamois of various unrealistic sizes. Fair enough, but it's not hunting, it's shooting practice with live targets. | |||
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You're right that culling has had a detrimental effect for obvious reasons. The meat hunters take the biggest, healthiest animals. The velvet hunters take the biggest heads. This all has a negative effect. But the north and south islands both still have great genetics present and could produce the heads of the past with the right management. Look at what's been done in the wapiti area. | |||
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It sounds like maybe you should be criticising all guided hunting and all hunting in really good hunting areas - because that is what great hunting areas are like - plenty game!! Game ranch/park hunting aside.... that is what good outfitters and area managers do - manage animals for the future and to ensure great hunting. If you want great hunting just say the word and I will drop you into the best hunting block at the very best time and you will have a great chance (but not guaranteed) at shooting a sika stag, fallow buck or banteng bull in a few short days. Will it cost you?? Hell YES!! Is this what you are really opposed too?? It sure sounds like it!! Also - I am not sure you have a lot of good info about the expectations of US hunters coming to New Zealand. The expectations are actually much lower than what you write above. Talk is cheap about 400+ stags here but SCI 'gold medal' class is 350SCI and even then a lot of hunters wont even get one of them... even in a game park!!! Gold medal for a wild stag is about 280 I think - and this is what outfitters should be aiming for of course (promoting) .... but they just cant be honest!! The vast majority of hunters wouldnt even know the difference between a 350 & 400 stag - anyhow - they all look huge!! | |||
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Nah, the culling has had no effect on the genes, the good herds still have a all the potential of yesteryear. Still the odd good one sneaking through. Its just they arnt reaching that potential. A few years back the Waro was halted due to a 1080 scare in wild meat, there were some great heads started to show through again. | |||
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What about lack of bey tine in some herds??? Seems to be pretty widespread in the SI... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Always been there. My great grandfather liberated one of the initial stags that started a north island herd back in 1904, They are the same gene pool as the northern part of the South Island. To this day the same form and traits are visible. More than genes, you have to look at other factors that made those initial stags so great. Up until the early 60's, the deer were still spreading into new territory's. Bountiful, untouched food, cross breeding with slightly different bloodlines creating hybrid vigor. There were always plenty of crap stags too, its just the guys had a plethora of choice. You just don't hear of the crap stags, their antlers have provided nutrients to the valley floors for the last 70 years. Some working together in this country would produce some amazing heads again. | |||
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Where do you get that from Matt? Because I don't like the idea of shooting farm animals as trophies I oppose all guided hunting? That's one big leap. I live in London now and pay to hunt when I go up to Scotland. Paying and being guided is just par for the course. Would I pay to shoot a farm deer on a paddock? No. Why? at risk of labouring the point, it's not hunting. Re. you dropping me into 'the best hunting block'. One of the benefits of putting in all that work when I was younger is that I have a few good spots I can walk into on public land. When I'm back home I can hunt the Kaweka's for sika or the Ruahine's for reds, I've even got a spot about an hour north of Auckland where I've shot a fair few fallow. So no thanks. Water Buffalo is a different story. Don't get me wrong Matt. I know there are a lot of hunters that go to NZ and hunt properly. What I don't agree with is the trophy collection mentality which is, in my opinion, detrimental to our sport. Cheers, Sam Wise | |||
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Any real large trophy animal from NZ is suspect nowadays. If an opportunity came up to hunt and shoot a fair chase, free range super trophy stag, one would wonder if anyone would believe it was. Probably not. Also the insidious behaviour of releasing a trophy animal the day before from the tiny deer farming pens into the "wild". Then telling the client they are hunting free range on private land. Absolutely disgusting and indefensible. Not just NZ, but Aussie too. The client is suckered into thinking they had a fair chase hunt, with a tame beast. Once was hunting an area of fallow deer range. Back in the days when it was legal to release deer into the wild. We released some to improve the genetic quality of the wild herds. These animals could not be hunted for a period of time after release. Was trying to hunt one of the genetically inferior fallow bucks, up on the ridgeline. But the released buck was in the paddock in front of us. Could not get around it, so hoped it would run off in a different direction from the ridgeline ..... fat chance .... it looked at us, 50 metres away and put its head down to continue feeding ..... The sort of "trophy" some love to sell and makes money off, selling to sucker clients ... | |||
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