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Why did you ask them if they'd do a helicopter hunt? | |||
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What 'issues' would they be??  | |||
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I was making sure that my client WOULDNT be taken shooting out of chopper on his tahr hunt... | |||
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Just like that game ranch in RSA eh?? | |||
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You keep pulling out this fall back line about how we don't want any overseas hunters over here. I honestly don't know how you're coming to this conclusion. Is objecting to canned hunting tantamount to not wanting any hunters from overseas? There's only so many times I can hammer the point home when your argument is so irrational but I'll give it one last go. I feel proud that others come to New Zealand to experience our wonderful hunting and fishing and would encourage all and sundry to do it at least once in their lives. However, I make no apologies for being anti canned shoots for tame, hand reared animals. Does that make my position clear on overseas hunters? Shankspony said it best- You took the hunt out of hunting. | |||
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No, I was saying that Shanks doesnt want lots of hunters coming to NZ.... You, I just dont think you have much of a clue about any of this stuff and are just copying what others are writing... You say that you are 'proud' that these guys come to NZ to hunt... but then in several other posts you say that any game ranch hunt is not a hunt, it's just a shoot... and that they shouldnt hang it on a wall and tell stories. Thats just kids stuff. Not sure what you mean about me taking the hunt out of hunting - 90% of what I do is wild hunting. I give lots of hunters opportunities that they wouldnt normally get. You dont know anything about me... I know you are talking about 'the industry' but why would you make these generalised statements like that?? | |||
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Matt, lets be precise, you asked if I would still be against them for the access reasons, I agreed that I would for that reason, I also said it was within their right to do so. You asked a hypothetical question, I gave a hypothetical answer because that situation doesn't exist. Of course I mentioned chamois, what I didn't say was that the guides were responsible for their decline as you intoned. So show us the email, and tell us who the ethical operators are. Was the helihunt refusal for private, or public land? Yeah, I feel free to admit that I'm against the industry as it currently stands, doesn't mean I don't recognize some good honest operators, and know there are some who would relish the chance to clean up the industry. I'd say that the game park is unethical. Can't comment on the rest, you won't tell us who they are. | |||
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My mistake Shanks - I'm very sorry... I did know that. I meant that YOU dont want lots of hunters coming to NZ .... and hunting with an outfitter!! I mean you say it yourself that you are against 'the industry'; the industry that facilitates all these people coming to New Zealand and having a nice hunting holiday, the industry that finds employment for a couple hundred of your fellow NZ hunters, brings in foreign currency and investment... among other tangile benefits. What point telling you who the operators are?? You think all game parks are unethical - say no more!!! Your parochialism knows no bounds.... | |||
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So do's yours | |||
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Well I'mm off to bed now, I'm a bit tuckered out, spent the evening with two german guests looking for a pig for one to shoot. We didn't find a suitable quarry and came home empty handed. Thats called something.... hunting I think. Never mind, theres always the one down in the sty.....  | |||
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Open message to the Kiwis.... It's the wet season in the Northern Territory which means no hunting, at least for paying customers. The upshot of this, Matt has a lot of time on his hands and he appears to get a lot of his off season kicks (at least from what I've seen on various forums) from yanking peoples chains. He barks, you bark back......you see where this is going??? | |||
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"Your parochialism knows no bounds...." "So is yours" show me an Aussie or a NZer who says they are not parochial & I'll show you a liar. Doesn't mean we can't appreciate the differences across the "ditch" tho. Every industry that is associated with natural resources has its good operators & its ratbags Reputation typically builds the business of the good operators & you hope that the ratbags whither & die on the vine as their deeds & their reputation catches up with them. While ever there are people how want the "badge" of a trophy on the wall without any respect for the animal, or the experience & effort of the "fair" hunt itself.......there will be people who cater for them. Its a sad fact of life. Good operators get repeat business & referrals from genuine "hunters" . Ratbags don't get repeat business from genuine "hunters". Its been a very interesting thread & I have learnt a few more things about NZ from the posts. | |||
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whatever you reckon John...  Nice bait!! | |||
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And you claim that any game ranch operator is unethical (dogdy) - most operators have or use game ranches (by neccesity mostly) - therefore you dont want most OS hunters coming to NZ... except those who concur 100% with your own 'ethics'. | |||
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Alrighty then. I have fnished mucking with little MArlin grub screws, broken mounts and the wrong size screwdrivers and have got a bandaid on my finger. The orginal thing was about finding a 400" stag. We pointed out, quite helpfully to MR Eland, that he if he could find one it would virtually certainty that it was farm raised stock. Mr Graham has pointed out that this isnt always the case, and that there are very large properties that breed and manage 'wild' deer free range that can get up to that size. (Correct if I am wrong Matt, I think thats the thrust of your rapier.) What we are trying to get across is that we dont think there are. Nope. I know its important to you that there should be, because you are selling honest hunters on this concept, but to be perfectly frank I really dont think it happens at all, not animals of that size, not at all. You have to understand how absurdly money hungry and ethicless these "game ranches" are. Why should they bother with this? They have a whole industry of farmers supporting them with steroid suppimented animals that they can simply just buy. The highways are alive down here with stock truck in late February and earlyMarch delivering these animals after the auctions. Do you really want me to post photo's of the auction for these animals down here on this forum? I can. Your point in rebuttal, Matt and Eland, is that undenyably, this regretaable situation exists in a small way, and the whole of tourist hunting in NZ should not be tarred with that brush. I am trying to tell you that they overwhelmingly are, certainly the bigger ones you are talking about who can claim to be able to supply a 400" stag, which is the entire point of this thread. There are a few exceptions. Much smaller properties, kept in bush blocks, where you can hunt truly wild deer on private land. I dont know what they cost, but you will still be doing very well if you can find a nice looking twelve pointer. Please sit back and think who are your sources are for your information about hunting in NZ. It is the game parks themselves isn't it? As for being jealous of overseas hunters - you are mising the point. Kiwi's hunters are a geenrally helpful breed. We are trying to help them, because we understand that what they think is guided hunting back in North America or wherever, is not the same thing here. AS for the tourist hunting being good for NZ hunting or hunters, I cant think how that can be since - as you point out - the activities on these game parks is totally insulated and doesn't involve or concern anyone at all. And by definition we dont consider it hunting. Giving NZ a good name for hunting internationally...doesnt have any benefit or impact on us either, because we never ever come across any foreigners out hunting in the enrormous amounts of Conservation land that we all hunt. All it does is generate business for people like you. Your vested interest has dripped onto your tie. And all these threads do when they come up is threaten to educate your potential clients, so I understand why you have to disagree with me, but seriously, I'm here and your not, and I don't make a dollar off any of it, so...who you gonna believe? | |||
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You can twist my words around if you like... | |||
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I will bludgeon you down with words. What does get to me, is the constant refrain that the only form of hunting a tourist hunter can do is go and spend all his monmey on a game park. There is so much country available for hunting in NZ that holds animals, and so many get taken each year, and your telling me that all a visiting hunters options are to pay thousands of dollars to hunt on your 23,000 acre block that used to be a sheep farm before they figured out they could sell big deer to foreigners? My hunting block these days is Fiordland. You could lose the Yellowstone National Park in there and have trouble finding it again. All the deer are wild in there. I mean, all of them. Now, my point is, if it wasn't for the tourist hunting industry forever trumpeting about how it was a waste of time hunting NZ in any other way and that they can only achieve a worthwhile experience by shooting stags for a few grand on their land, or maybe wild goats for $600 a pop each... ....we would be meeting foreign hunters out there in the bush and the (real) mountains, and they would be happily wokring away at getting the best stag they could and it wouldnt cost them a cent. Not one cent. Only the cost of petrol. And they can do it for as long as they like, wherever they like and shoot as much as they like. The NZ tourist hunting industry thrives on keeping visiting hunters ignorant, this is what upsets NZ hunters really. Its not jealousy or that we dont want them or any of the reasons you have come up with for why we are upset, its because the whole thing is built and marketed on deceit. Instead we dont get anyone really hunting in NZ from overseas. Nobody, not really, barely the occassional Australian. Just the threads that come up every now and then asking about shooting freakishly large stags that never get that way in the wild, on a block of private land, that is often owned by US outfitting companies. So you cant even say that those dollars even stay in the country. | |||
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Why is it so very difficult for Matt Graham to post up the names of the good operators in NZ? If he is so sure about how they manage their animals and the hunting, it is only good publicity for them and him if he represents them. If Matt Graham continue to keep avoiding this question and don't post names, I regard it as proof that there really are no one at all. Worried that someone will burst your bubble Matt Graham ? | |||
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Well - let's just look at red deer.... No, I didnt say it is the only option and there are plenty of hunters who will want to do 'real hunts' if offered. But the reality is that those expectations of what can be achieved on say a 5-7 hunt day probably wont be met on public land and many of the hunters simply dont have the capacity to bust their arse for 5 days - so they will take more realistic options on a game ranch or well managed private land. So many, as I have said before just want to come to NZ and hhave a great experience and a chance at a representative trophy... I am sure a sliding scale of fees, as is common with most game ranches and red deer isnt that appealing but thats the way it is. A lot of them want to come and hunt tahr at the same time and do it after the red stag rut when their manes are better - so that would tend to proclude hunting both species in the rut... the 2 wild 'seasons' do not overlap so well. Yes outfitters are trying to get hunters to take more species while they are there and game ranches facilitate that happening. Companies like my own seek those better private free-ranging opportunities; like for instance what we might have on properties in the Hanmer area or parts of the Rangitata valley.... but clients are told if they are expecting monster red stags that it isnt likely going to happen in the wild and that any wild hunting is going to be difficult outside of the roar anyhow. I cant be more plain than that. I dont know how other companies market red stags in NZ but that is how I market it... at least a bit of honesty. We all know there are parts of the industry that isnt doing NZ hunting any favours and I do and have acknowledge that. There is a reason why most OS hunters only go to NZ once and I have said that before.. that is a travesty... Who are all these US outfitters that you mention??... I know of only one (Spey Creek) and they seem to be pretty local company now?? Norwegianwoods - I dont know who you are but that is just getting a bit nasty... I dont see why this thread has to get nasty, as I have not been. Who am I to list outfitters here for dissection?? | |||
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Here... let me give you something to chew on... dissect these....     All taken on a property that looks like this...  Obviously no 400 class stags taken there (outside their game park) and that isnt going to happen in the wild but they have taken some very nice wild stags on this property. .................................................... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Oh yes - there is of course Westervelt Lodges - US company that owns Poronui and a couple other places on the South Island. Not sure if they kept the SI places but they still have Poronui. Poronui has some great free-range sika hunting!! Cant really think of any others, sure there may be some though. | |||
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And Matt, those stags look like wild stags and what can be achieved simply through good management and letting good blood get to a decent age. I'm guessing the best of those would go 280- 300, Its realistic, but not what we are talking about is it? | |||
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Very nice stags  But very far from being in the 400+ class. | |||
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But that property "'The Hossack"' does offer 400 stags, in their game park,the going rate being 15000. They have a website where you can book direct. | |||
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Whew 4 pages who'd of thunk it.. and everyone is rather well behaved, well done gents this hasn't been a bad read all in all.------------------------------ A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!" | |||
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Do you know how big the game park is, and if there is in park breeding? or are the stags all "released" into the park Bon Ton? | |||
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Well canned hunting is a contentious issue in New Zealand Bakes. For mine it isn't so much that it exists but rather that there is so much smoke and mirrors associated with it. I think most Kiwi hunters would be willing to live and let live except that the claytons hunting fraternity are both encroaching on publicly owned land and persisting with helicopter assisted hunting.It's bad enough that a so called trophy hunter resorts to using a helicopter to secure his wall mount, but doing so on public land to the detriment of other users quiet enjoyment is downright bad manners.I speak not only of other hunters,but also mountaineers,hikers and and nature lovers in general who have the right to be in these same areas. Of course all this seems far removed from the original post,however it is all linked.One day we will have game management in this country,it may not be in my lifetime ,but it will happen. | |||
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I think they fenced off around two or three thousand acres,Matt will know. The station is or was in my day about twenty thousand acres. Pretty easy country at the head of the Hamner river,and runs over into the Clarence[Hossack Creek],below the Acheron. I took a little over 500 deer off there in the summer of 1960 but prety well all the stags were eight and ten pointers,big bodied though. The stags were all typical Nelson/ Marlborough stock. Looking at Matts pics there has been an infusion of new blood and that can only be good for the property. Mind you I doubt they would want $15000 stags running too far from the fenced in area. The Hossack is very easily accessed. | |||
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MAtt, I dont think your post comes anywhere near addressing mine and the propaganda the game park industry has spread about this countries hunting. Why are there "expectations" that need to be met - this is hunting is it not? How would you know what results can be achieved on public land - who told you that? What are your own experiences? That is the game park marketing guy talking again isn't it? - exactly what I was addressing above. "Many hunters don't have the capacity to bust there arse for five days" - but why is it that always it is virtual invalids who wish to hunt in NZ anyway? I mean seriously. What I think you mean is that these are older men who have mande their money and can afford your fees. That's not quite the same thing is it... Why is it that everything always points to hunting a game park? Its a vicious circle - the "expectations" are made by the hunting outfits with their advertising. Look if you want a gaurantee buy a toaster. This is hunting in the wilderness. I find it truly hard to believe that every time someone goes Elk hunting in the United States they fully expect to shoot a massive trophy that will go record book. Its really not so is it. Yet your are telling me that the average hunter when he travels expect this of hunting a red stag in NZ - in five days? Look - to sum it all up - you are actually talking about a very special group of clientele, who are paying very specially constructed hunting. You are not talking about the hunting in NZ which you wouldnt know the first thing about, and you really shouldnt be talking about it in a place where NZ hunters can be found, because they are simply going to point out the disparity between what you are selling and reality every time. | |||
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I thought a few nice deer photos might calm the blood pressure!! Yes they have a game park of a couple thousand acres and it does have good habitat and they breed some very good quality stags there and that is where their 400 class stags come from and no doubt they do buy a few each year but it is a proper breeding herd in there currently producing 350+ stags, given time to mature. No doubt a few escape and will help improve the local wild deer over time too. The place is about 23,000acres total and the owners are working very hard to build the wild red deer herd, with culling and food plots - proper management. Also trying to build the chamois herd and keep the freakin' helos out. If you go there close to the roar you have a good chance of getting a good free range red, wont cost you a small fortune ... You might also go home empty handed - but you have a far better chance of getting a representative stag or better, than traipsing public land.. you pay your 5 or 6 grand or whatever it is for the hunt and you get to hunt an A+ hunting block - that is how good safaris operate!!! I know that none of these stags above are huge 400 stags (I NEVER claimed you could get one in the wild) - Boddingtons I guess is about 300 inches. Given the situation at this property - clients taking wild stags with proper mass and length and 7+7 points and up.... when photos start turning up of high 300inch stags ... are we going to hear the usual bleats of.... 'oh it was released'. We have a similar situation in Australia where there are proper wild herds producing high 300inch stags... hopefully one day that will be the norm as the deer do have the potential, given healthy animals and good management. What I am trying to illustrate is that there ARE some good outfitters in New Zealand, running a range of hunts to all tastes, doing good game management etc. Hossack is not alone... BTW - I am sure they didnt intend the 'heli-hunting' thing on their homepage ... there is no way they would be shooting tahr out of a chopper - just flying hunters up to the mountains. I will get them to correct that to save confusion... Just thought I would point that out in case you were wondering. This is not the outfitter that was refusing to do actual heli-shoots... but I know that the owners/guides would not. They dont need to and dont want to. | |||
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There's no need to be a condescending arsehole - I am just giving readers something of an industry insiders point of view... I get to see the good and the bad and I am not afraid to report it. I couldnt care less if I dont sell any hunts to NZ!! What I am saying above is that the expectations and needs of the visiting hunter is very, very different to the local hunter and there are factors that the local hunter might not consider. You are quite correct, the same guy who comes to hunt a red stag in New Zealand, rusa in Australia or kudu in RSA - is going there on holiday and he would dearly like to be successful in those 5-7 days that he has to do that holiday hunt. Back home in say Idaho - he is in exactly the same boat as you regarding his public land elk hunting, in his home state - he buys his licence and makes plans months in advance and goes elk hunting every spare minute and LIVES to hunt that elk. He will most likely shoot a cow or two and fill his freezer and maybe he will get an opportunity once every few years to shoot a bull, maybe a good one, who knows - regardless he is as happy as a pig in shiit doing his thing on his home turf. His trip to NZ, Aus, RSA, wherever is different. He has limited time and it is HIS holiday and he wants a good chance at a stag and he will pay some for that opportunity and experience. That will mean he will get taken to a good hunting area!! Hopefully that is the case and he wont be offered a deer in a small enclosure - HOPEfully he is looking for a good free ranging opportunity but if his holidays are in JULY - which they invariably are in N.America (if we are mainly looking at US hunters) - a proper wild red stag is not really going to happen, probably even on the best private land. These are SOME of the reasons things, for him, will almost always point back to game parks in NZ - hopefully good-quality, well managed ones!! That is before we even talk about peoples physical capabilities... It is all too easy to look at the glossy brochures and websites and see those monster stags and think that is what the industry is all about. They always put big stags on their brochures, they want to attract the clients!! I gotta go do some work!!! | |||
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Didnt I say that below the photos???  A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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You spoke too soon Bakes. The decorum has just taken a dive into name calling. | |||
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Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute?? | |||
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Ahhhh Matt, that's a bit rich, look in the mirror before you start throwing that around. | |||
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So the answer was NO then?? | |||
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Thats approaching the comment that got Gryph time out....... Just saying. | |||
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You've have verified, and are continuing to verify everything I said here..
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I didnt know that a comment got him time-out?? Point taken... sorry Carleson Hwy - I dont know who you are, so I dont really KNOW you are an arsehole... but you were being rather condescending and rude. | |||
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