quote:

Originally posted by Sam Wise:

Where do you get that from Matt? Because I don't like the idea of shooting farm animals as trophies I oppose all guided hunting? That's one big leap.

I live in London now and pay to hunt when I go up to Scotland. Paying and being guided is just par for the course. Would I pay to shoot a farm deer on a paddock? No. Why? at risk of labouring the point, it's not hunting.

Re. you dropping me into 'the best hunting block'. One of the benefits of putting in all that work when I was younger is that I have a few good spots I can walk into on public land. When I'm back home I can hunt the Kaweka's for sika or the Ruahine's for reds, I've even got a spot about an hour north of Auckland where I've shot a fair few fallow. So no thanks. Water Buffalo is a different story.

Don't get me wrong Matt. I know there are a lot of hunters that go to NZ and hunt properly. What I don't agree with is the trophy collection mentality which is, in my opinion, detrimental to our sport.

Cheers,
Sam Wise

Well you made it sound bad that you might bust your arse for nothing while some other guy on a guided hunt might get multiple trophies .... who cares what someone else does??

How is it detrimental to your sport?? Yes if it is unethical and it gets bad publicity - then maybe... but aside Vrom that you are just criticising other people with different values for doing somethng that is perfectly legal.

I was speaking figuratively about dropping you into a good hunting zone.

anyhow...

...................

Thanks for the red stag history Shanks!!

quote:

Well you made it sound bad that you might bust your arse for nothing while some other guy on a guided hunt might get multiple trophies .... who cares what someone else does??

How is it detrimental to your sport?? Yes if it is unethical and it gets bad publicity - then maybe... but aside Vrom that you are just criticising other people with different values for doing somethng that is perfectly legal.

I was speaking figuratively about dropping you into a good hunting zone.

You're right that what other people do is their business and their responsibility, but does that exclude me from offering criticism of what they are doing?

One example of how it is detrimental to our sport is provided in the post before yours which started off- "Any large trophy animal from NZ is suspect nowadays".

My main point is that shooting behind the wire is fine, in fact tourist hunting brings a lot of cash into the NZ economy, but it is not a real representation of what hunting in NZ is like, and just because something is legal does not mean it can't or shouldn't be criticised.

As you can see above - I am very critical myself about the bad aspects of the hunting industry... I just think it is wrong to criticise the whole game ranch industry - which is what commonly happens in these threads.

Hunting in New Zealand these days has many different aspects and levels and many different kinds of participants. I think you will find that a lot of the hunters who come to New Zealand are really not that different to you or I - back at home they may just bust their guts to get a special free-range whitetail deer - but on their week long hunting holiday to New Zealand they would like a better than average chance of taking home a good red stag, the game animal that New Zealand is most famous for. That will not happen in the wild.

I see things a little differently than most because I get to see both sides of the fence, as it were.

I dont beleive many kiwi hunters actually dislike hunting ranches. Its the fact that some of those animals are touted as free range and wild when its patently obvious to the locals that that isnt true.

If people are happy to shoot a huge deer head in the knowledge that its a farmed one then I am happy with that. Its the sham and false pretenses that I dislike.

Hell I have shot stags in the deer crush , for meat , so I am not above shooting a farmed deer occasionally. I just dont have their heads on my wall as trophies...

I am sure there is something missing in this discusssion.....

Yeah like I said before - I dont like the lies either!!!

But to infer that all game ranches are just 'deer farms' is just plain wrong and a misrepresentation of what you have there...

This is a stirr up between us local hunters who go bush and hunt - really crawl, scratch fall & carry out type hunt versus commerial guiding /outfitting in NZ for red stags. Totally differnt worlds.

Very rarely a 400" stag turns up in the wild. About 12 odd years ago a monster was shot in the Wairarapa & I saw the mount in the Featherston petrol station. That was shot in the bush & it was cheked by Bruce Branwell and confirmed as a typical Wairarapa gean pool stag. First wild stag in the 400" class for over 50 years!

Game ranchs in NZ are not thousands of acres as far as I know. There may be the odd one but most of them seem to have a few hundred acres of fenced paddocks even if the entire property is 50,000 acres. The animals are hunted in marginal areas with a bit of bush and clearings. This is not real wild rough country hunting like say the West Coast or Fiordland.

Often the big stags are from stud farms and the animals will have ripped ears from having been tagged.

Matt, I respect you as a reputable guide / outfitter. By the same token we kiwis have our own views about farmed deer being hunted in fenced paddocks and our views deserve similar respect.

Another thing - NZ is also famous for truely wild and big bull tahr. There are many good guides who can get you truely wild bull tahr of good quality.

I think that is another reason why we locals frown upon the red stag "hunting" scene.

I respect your view too - but to say that there are no or few large game ranches in New Zealand is simply incorrect.

You talk about a few hundred acres and yes there are those but there ARE a great many that are in the thousands too, especially South Island.... There was some industry monitoring of game ranches going on, I remember Ron Spanton telling me about it years ago. I will chase that up - not sure if there is data available though.

Yes I know there is plenty of great guided wild tahr hunting - just as there are some great true wild red stag hunts (which you do not acknowledge in your post either)... I was saying that New Zealand is most NOTED for the big red stag hunting - not that there arent other great animals/hunts. When you travel to far flung parts of the USA, everyone knows about the big red stags and the 'roar' - because they have seen it on TV but invariably they will not know what a tahr is, unfortunately. So what I am saying is that it is not surprising that the huge demand is there - when even Joe Snotty from Shittsville, Tenn. knows about how cool they are

Hey I am not antagonising you blokes - we actually are on the same page - we just maybe see things from a slightly different angle!!

Oh - If you blokes said to me "I really think the game ranch activities pose a serious risk to all free New Zealand hunting because of unethical behaviour" - I would not be able to reply or disagree... I am not saying that is the case, just making a point that I am not just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Matt, you seem to have a singular and fundemental misunderstanding about "game Ranches" here in NZ. I am not sure whether you are being deliberately obtuse or why you keep arguing against the people that live here.
I sure dont take any stance in writing about hunting in AUstralia or Aouth Africa as I know little about it first hand.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that someone has around here has a property of many thousands of hectares, where he is selectively managing a herd of free range stags that get up to 400".

This is what they want you to think and it is implied in the advertising, but its not true. Look for the last time, these people are taking you to a theme park for hunting designed only to relieve you of your money. Industry monitoring of game ranches in NZ you say? Done by who?
My friend, me and you could start one up tomorrow and do whatever the hell we wanted. There is none.
Look, Im trying to do you a favour, we always are when we post these answers,
You made a jab at me before about telling you what was hunting or some high minded thing I was accussed of (which I didn't do at all) - I could care less about your hunting ethics versus mine or whatever, I doubt we will ever meet, you being over there and all, but how about if I just cannot stand good money being taken from you by charlatans?

For the last time, there are no stags that go that size in this country that are wild animals. To be perfectly clear what I mean by this, I mean stags that have never had an ear tag.
That really is your answer to the OP and there is nothing more to it than that.

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:


You seem to be under the misapprehension that someone has around here has a property of many thousands of hectares, where he is selectively managing a herd of free range stags that get up to 400".

No - you obviously havent read what I wrote above - I have said nothing of the sort.

The vast majority of my experience with New Zealand hunting (aside from my own small amount of hunting there) is a vast amount of time sitting down with New Zealand safari operators, asking questions from an 'insiders' POV, working out who is telling lies and who isnt. That is a very big part of my job. Plus spending time with hundreds of int clients, who share their experiences.

Going back to the actual game ranches - I am informed that the industry scrutiny I mentioned before never came to anything. There are however at least half a dozen proper game ranches on the SI alone that are 2000ac of hill (aerial) and more, up to the largest which is approx 7000ac (Stu Point). Many more smaller ones (800-1000) that would still be operated as 'fair chase' (I hate that term though) with red stag breeding herds in situ. A wide range of experiences...

The succulents and palatables which produced the great heads of the past were eaten out decades ago,and largely replaced by unpalatables or less nutritious flora. Even during the golden days of very large racks there were significant numbers of sub standard heads taken. The chances of taking a great trophy from unimproved pasture or forest is slim. The game ranches are or were, in the main,former sheep or cattle ranches.The pastures have been improved with fertilizers and seeded with grasses and clovers.So with selective breeding and supplementary feeding large heads are produced.Whether it is a thousand acre property or a several thousand acres is immaterial, it is still farming. There is a lot of spoonbending going on in New Zealand,the amount of smoke and mirror tactics employed to relieve the gullible of their hard earned money is quite staggering.

Thanks for the info about the herbage!!

Yes about the farming, just as much as any close management of game species is a kind of farming. I think one difference is that if you want to catch one of those 'farmed' animals in a game park... you generally have to catch it with a projetile of some kind!!

Problem is - when you use the term 'deer farm' it conjures images of an treeless irrigated flat - not a hillside of matagowrie (sp?)... to me anyhow.

Personally I just find it amusing that many hunters will poo-poo game ranches in their own neck of the woods but happily step into a ranch situation for their own hunt to southern Africa... BUT claim that that is different because the property is soooo BIG OR the fence was nearly falling over OR the game jumps in and out, et al.

I do think that it is great that we can discuss this topic here without everyone getting all upset and defensive... lots of international hunters will be reading this thread and will serve to provide good info to them!!

Yes I should have pointed out that in the main those ranches are on steep mountain land,and yes, often with matagouri and speargrass for the unwary. I was attempting to point out why there was such a difference between animals from the true wild and those running wild on improved pasture,and that many in the industry fudge the line between the two.

Oh yes!!!

Interesting discussion from all parties - and no-one getting abusive or personal.

Could this be how a mature forum should operate ? Sure hope so , I'm enjoying this discussion to date .

Thanks to all so far , keep it up.

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
Interesting discussion from all parties - and no-one getting abusive or personal.

Could this be how a mature forum should operate ? Sure hope so , I'm enjoying this discussion to date .

Thanks to all so far , keep it up.

Muzza, the way it should be.


The debate on shooting tame animals as "hunting trophies" is all about ->




And the comments about "why does it matter what someone else does?" I know where that line comes from.

But with the same freedom, don't expect other people to respect suppliers, agents or clients whom offer that sort of shit. Or ooh and aah about abnormal pen raised stags.

New Zealand is really a hunters paradise of wild game. No reason other than greed of some to offer anything other than reasonably fair chase hunts.

High fenced hunting, I've done it. But not from stock raised in deer farms and let out a day before. Not small enclosures, and I don't need to tell anything but the truth about where the hunt was, and how it occurred.

As said before, "why does it matter what someone else does?", if that person is so ashamed of what they have done, they need to move the 'trophy' to a new location for photos, no high fences behind, no chopper in the back ground, some even fly their tahr from the pen to a mountain side for photos, write imaginary hero hunting stories, ...... well .... that question above answers itself, IMO.

Only ever seen one client brave or silly enough to include the chopper in his "mountain hunt" story.

You are absolutely right Nitrox, and whilst it is nobody's business, trophy heads are scored and when the inevitable mines bigger than yours contests start,so do the accusations start flying.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
Interesting discussion from all parties - and no-one getting abusive or personal.

Could this be how a mature forum should operate ? Sure hope so , I'm enjoying this discussion to date .

Thanks to all so far , keep it up.

Muzza, the way it should be.


The debate on shooting tame animals as "hunting trophies" is all about ->




And the comments about "why does it matter what someone else does?" I know where that line comes from.

But with the same freedom, don't expect other people to respect suppliers, agents or clients whom offer that sort of shit. Or ooh and aah about abnormal pen raised stags.

New Zealand is really a hunters paradise of wild game. No reason other than greed of some to offer anything other than reasonably fair chase hunts.

High fenced hunting, I've done it. But not from stock raised in deer farms and let out a day before. Not small enclosures, and I don't need to tell anything but the truth about where the hunt was, and how it occurred.

As said before, "why does it matter what someone else does?", if that person is so ashamed of what they have done, they need to move the 'trophy' to a new location for photos, no high fences behind, no chopper in the back ground, some even fly their tahr from the pen to a mountain side for photos, write imaginary hero hunting stories, ...... well .... that question above answers itself, IMO.

Only ever seen one client brave or silly enough to include the chopper in his "mountain hunt" story.

Very good Nitro, In fact so good it may just end the discussion right there.

Matt, as an outfitter and guide, I can see that you will want to protect your industry. But to say that NZ is most famous for its Big Red Stags is like the biggest hunting myth about NZ. All the so called Big Red stags are on farms and made to look like free range. Just see the history of the NZ Deer Stalkers club annual awards. How many 300+ Douglas score reds are taken in the last 10years. Ok NZDA is not the be all & end all of hunting here. But their records should give you an in dication.

We Kiwis get really mad about this Big Red Stags story because it is just not true. It is all a gimmick. Yes we have great Sika stags & 200+ animals are shot by Joe Blog every other year. But no Joe Blog has shot any 350+ Red stag for yonks!

It is here that the guiding & outfitting industry are risking their credibility.

What on earth are you talking about??

All I said was that NZ IS most reknowned (known) internationally for its stag hunting - that is a product of all the promotion that has happened and all the hunting shows that have featured on TV. I was just making a statement of fact... that might somehow explain the demand??!! and the misconceptions too - TV is rarely reality!!

Nothing more, nothing less....

and I am not trying to protect any industry - all I said was that maybe I get to see things from a slightly different perspective.

You can read anything else you like into those comments - I am sure you will

I really appreciate everyone's replies....thank you very much.

I have an honest question now though:

Are there really not any sizeable hunting ranches (2,000-5,000 acres) in New Zealand that use a high fence as a true management tool, and not just a means of keeping their pen-raised animals from leaving?

I'm referring to a property being high fenced to better manage a naturally reproducing, and self-sustaining population of Red Deer. Perhaps genetics are introduced into the population early on, and then the animals are allowed to remain wild and behave/breed like they would in a truly wild environment (yes, I am aware that many of you might not consider any place with a fence to be "wild").

This is the same practice used on many ranches here in Texas for Whitetail Deer. Lots of people assume that any place with a high fence here in Texas is full of pen-raised breeder bucks and exotics....when, in fact, there are a huge number of family ranches that are high fenced only to better manage the native wildlife. The fence allows deer to reach maturity, and therefore realize their full trophy potential. It also allows for proper management of the habitat and controlled numbers of deer to not exceed the carrying capacity. Sometimes outside "better" genetics are introduced, but it is truly for breeding purposes, and not for shooting a pen-raised buck. More often then not, females from good blood-lines are purchased for this purpose.....rather than bucks (usually due to cost).

Do places like this exist in New Zealand?....because I was under the impression that the majority of the hunting estates with trophy stags were run this way. That is how most of the NZ estates are marketed to us here in the United States.

quote:

Perhaps genetics are introduced into the population early on, and then the animals are allowed to remain wild and behave/breed like they would in a truly wild environment (yes, I am aware that many of you might not consider any place with a fence to be "wild").

Hi Eland,
The issue that you raise is that the comparison between the 2 animals you make is not really valid from a behavioural point of view, in that red deer and whitetails are extremely different in their behaviour. It is my understanding from reading specialist biologists reports (after using tracking collars) that MOST whitetails bucks live in a range of a few square miles from where they are born and stay there year round, so enclosing them in an area of say 5,000 acres is quite realistic in providing a year round habitat. A Red deer however, I believe has a far greater range over the course of the year depending on the season, measured in square miles rather than acres. Sika, Red and Wapiti cover huge amounts of ground in search of food and or mates depending on availability and as such to provide a realistic "truly wild environment" one would need more like 100 sq miles fenced for a small herd of red deer to live in. I have hunted whitetailsm in the USA a little and red deer in NZ quite a bit and there is a huge difference in the tactics used to hunt both. GENERALLY speaking a whitetail hunt (in the USA)is a tactical hunt and a red stag hunt (in N.Z) involves much more physical effort and humping yer ass up rather large moutains, through very thich bush filled with stinging nettle, bush lawyer ( wait-a-while bush), thick ferns and or underbrush, creeks filled with slippery rocks, waterfalls, and extremely inclement weather. Quite different to sitting in a carefully chosen tree stand waiting for a trophy whitetail to come by. It is far easier to replicate a true whitetail hunt behind wire that a red stag hunt. That is for sure...

Cheers

Glenn

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:

quote:

Perhaps genetics are introduced into the population early on, and then the animals are allowed to remain wild and behave/breed like they would in a truly wild environment (yes, I am aware that many of you might not consider any place with a fence to be "wild").

Hi Eland,
The issue that you raise is that the comparison between the 2 animals you make is not really valid from a behavioural point of view, in that red deer and whitetails are extremely different in their behaviour. It is my understanding from reading specialist biologists reports (after using tracking collars) that MOST whitetails bucks live in a range of a few square miles from where they are born and stay there year round, so enclosing them in an area of say 5,000 acres is quite realistic in providing a year round habitat. A Red deer however, I believe has a far greater range over the course of the year depending on the season, measured in square miles rather than acres. Sika, Red and Wapiti cover huge amounts of ground in search of food and or mates depending on availability and as such to provide a realistic "truly wild environment" one would need more like 100 sq miles fenced for a small herd of red deer to live in. I have hunted whitetailsm in the USA a little and red deer in NZ quite a bit and there is a huge difference in the tactics used to hunt both. GENERALLY speaking a whitetail hunt (in the USA)is a tactical hunt and a red stag hunt (in N.Z) involves much more physical effort and humping yer ass up rather large moutains, through very thich bush filled with stinging nettle, bush lawyer ( wait-a-while bush), thick ferns and or underbrush, creeks filled with slippery rocks, waterfalls, and extremely inclement weather. Quite different to sitting in a carefully chosen tree stand waiting for a trophy whitetail to come by. It is far easier to replicate a true whitetail hunt behind wire that a red stag hunt. That is for sure...

Cheers

Glenn

Okay....I understand your point. And maybe Red Deer on 5,000 acres of fenced property is not going to be the same as truly wild, free-range Red Deer.

With that part aside, are there places in NZ that meet the criteria I put in my last post?

While Red Deer on 5,000 acres of fenced land may not be exactly the same as free-range (that is understandable)....surely if the population is basically left alone, and not continually handled by man....then the animals will retain a natural fear of humans and act just as skittish as any free-range Red Deer.

I have been to ranches here in Texas that have Red Deer behind high fence, where they are left alone to reproduce naturally.....and they offer very challenging hunts (albeit probably not anywhere near as challenging as a public hunting area in New Zealand, but still a legitimate hunting experience).

I have hunted truely wild red deer in farms as small as 2000 acres. I am sure they cross over to the neighbours and to the DOC land next door. The point is that these are true feral deer from old gene pools that have been wild for 100 years with the odd escaped farm deer mixed in. These are not farmed deer with Hungarian or German stud input.

You would be lucky to see and shoot an 8 point (total both sids) stag and rarely a 10 pointer. Yes 12 & 14 pointers are shot each year but very rarely. A good Royal 12 pointer may only score 220 to 250 Douglas - & that is a true trophy by our hunting standards.

You have to understand that the true wild red deer heards in NZ (descended from the introduced stock from the old days) have been hammered every day for the last 60 years and then poisoned by 1080 and allowed to inbreed, and shot from helicopters for meat recovery etc. So the real good trophy genes have been diluted over the years. We are allowed to shoot stags in velevt, pregnant hinds and fawns. No holds barred. Most of the deer are shot in the spring & summer for meat.

So most of the big stags you see on TV or in the magazines are farmed stock from imported studs.

My best stag was a roaring mature spindly 6 pointer! I worked very very hard for it and was wasted for the next few days! I have seen a few 10 pointers (velvet) in the wild along river flats and farm boundaries but they could easily have been farm deer that escaped.

I think your asking the wrong crew Eland. We just don't interact with these places. All I know is that within a 1 1/4 hour drive of me here, there are two rolling to flat ex dairy farms flat out breeding stags that are going 300 + by the 3rd year. SCI has had to put a copyright on its measuring system to stop these deer being sold by the SCI point, they have come up with a total antler score, or something similar to SCI in return, its a huge business.
Out of all the properties,there is I'm guessing only a handful. Its a competition for customers and often the lowest common denominator, that turns the biggest profit is the winner, you keep up or get pushed out of the industry.

Eland, Red Deer that are in a managed situation such as a game ranch are not subject to the same hunting pressure as those resident on public land.
Over much of the public estate which encompasses aproximately one third of the New Zealand land mass, deer and other game animals are hunted year round, both by recreational hunters and also in many areas by wild venison recovery teams shooting from a helicopter.Consequently the free range herds are extremely wary.The average Kiwi weekend hunter is usually pretty fit,knows his territory and is generally hard to compete against. When I was guiding forty odd years ago,[when you had to be Govt. licensed] only the very fittest and most competent overseas clients cut the mustard.The rest were bloody hard work.
I think the ranch idea is good in that a larger number of hunters get to take an animal.That is not to say that all managed hunts are easy,sure some animals are virtually straight from the pen,but many others are not and still require hunting. I believe today's guides are able to tailor the hunt to suit the clients abilities. I wish I had had that option back in my day.

Well I am a bit rusty these days as to what a 400" stag actually looks like so I quickly jumped on line to find a pic of one and was instantly directed to a web site that had the price list below, (attached) to it.


redstag400plus_40 by soroka07, on Flickr

(The price list and the pic were on different sites.)

I was immediately reminded of the "shopping list" mentality of penned hunts. Note, Free Range any size $2500, and then the price pyramid begins. Kind of says it all really. The other obvious point being made by this price "pyramid" is that 400" red stags are very difficult to find anywhere if this "seller" is wanting $19,000 plus US$550.00 day/ rate for one. As one can see this is almost double the rate of what is being asked for an extra 20 -40" (379" $10,000), making it quite clear as to the additional difficulty in breeding or finding an animal to buy from a farmer, of this size in captivity ,let alone in the wild.

Two laws are at play here, the law of diminishing returns and the law of supply and demand.

Rather than the law of: seek and yee shall find. Not really into biblical quotes but seems appropriate.

Red Stag

Free Range (Any Size) $2,500
300 – 319 SCI $3,500
320 – 339 SCI $4,500
340 – 359 SCI $7,000
360 – 379 SCI $10,000
380 – 399 SCI $14,000
400 – 419 SCI $19,000
420 – 439 SCI $25,000
440+ POR

I dont rate your chances of finding such a commercially prized asset being let go in an environment where it may be hurt by other more aggressive stags, or where it maybe difficult to find because of the difficulty of terrain, or because it has been run off by more aggressive stags (in a large area), at a bargain basement price.

There's not much room for mystery on a hunt if you are given a price pyramid before you drive through the 8ft gate, and surely one of the great things about hunting is the "what can I find today?"

I think ShanksPony is on the money, you are asking the wrong crowd about this sham. And those that have such animals might have trouble looking you in the eye when telling you they have 400" animals available in a challenging hunting environment, especially at bargain basement prices. Note the significant expanse of green grass / open ground in the background of the big stag.
Safe and easy to find..

Eland Slayer - the reality is that there are very few properties larger than 2000ac behind wire (maybe only half a dozen) that would meet that criteria. They would all would have deer habitat and superior genetics breeding stock - breeding (relatively) naturally but all would have extra animals bought in each year.

I think it is a shame that they need to have so many different prices, according to size - but that is just the way it is. Quite a lot of European hunts operate this way - yes even proper wild ones - with maybe not so many divisions.

Most of the ranches in Australia do not have such divisions - or maybe just one division - and they still seem to work OK. Perhaps because it is not possible to go in there and find the biggest animal every day (ie. get shot out)... which may be the reality at most NZ ranches??

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:
Well I am a bit rusty these days as to what a 400" stag actually looks like so I quickly jumped on line to find a pic of one and was instantly directed to a web site that had the price list below, (attached) on it.


redstag400plus_40 by soroka07, on Flickr

..

Man, how much hormone was pumped into that fella ???? (Nice clean antlers too, always a give away).

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
You would be lucky to see and shoot an 8 point (total both sides) stag and rarely a 10 pointer.

Naki, I'm a shattered man..

A mate and I have been invited to hunt a North Island bush block next and I was hoping to bring home a big one.
Nah, not really, we hunted in Namibia last year and the experience was the main point of the trip, I suspect this NZ trip will be the same.

Johnfox, with that attitude you will have a great time and really have fun even if you just shoot a spiker.

I posted a couple of weeks ago about my South Island station hunt where I shot 2 fallow spikers at long range. It was great fun. I saw a 10 point red stag in velvet too but we let it go!

Just a side note - the farm manager's fiance is an English city girl who has taken to hunting in a big way over the last three years. Last year she shot a monster 13 pointer which was definitely from farm escapee stock and living wild across those properties.

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:


Man, how much hormone was pumped into that fella ???? (Nice clean antlers too, always a give away).

What makes you say there was hormones involved with that animal and not purely genetics and supplementary feeding?? These genetically superior animals can grow those antlers on their own!!

Deer like that big fella are the product of good genetics , and proper feeding to grow antler. Mineral supplementation , supplementary feeding to ensure the deer never goes hungry , and and herd management - ie culling out ones that dont grow like the one pictured.

Doesnt happen in the wild population and never will whilst wild deer are regarded as pest species by our government.

Now I'll throw in a curveball,and post this link to NZ's no one wild shot stag.
There was some controversy at the time, but it was checked By Bruce Banwell, and he concluded that any link to farm bred stock was tenuous.
I Know Bruce Dunn, the hunter, Hunt with him occasionally. He is straight up. Its hanging on the wall of his automotive repair business in Tekuiti. Well worth stopping in for a look.
http://www.nzhuntinginfo.com/p...Name=./game/red_deer

But it looks like a proper deer , not one that has a dead tree attached to its head, shanks.

Yeah it does doesn't it. 409 DS from memory.

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
But it looks like a proper deer

Yeah, it does.

quote:

not one that has a dead tree attached to its head

And that's exactly what those other freaks look like.

Wow! I was not aware of this one. The Wairarapa stag from Featherston was also checked by Bruce Banwell and it was 3rd or 4th on all time NZDA records IIRC. I nthink that was shot in 1998 or 99.

Yes Wairarapa does still produce some nice heads. I've seen the odd one or two while out trapping.I have no interest in shooting one ,but sure like to see them.

Barry,
I am going to have to come help you with those traps in April then...don't worry I will carry your .303 for you...


Matt,
you keep bringing up the fact that there are very large properties in the South island. ("Game Ranches" as you call them)
Yes there are, but I am not sure what you think this proves in itself. I know people that guide for a couple of them.
But I didn't realise before that you're an outfitter or a booking agent or something.

Mate, just book your people with any of them. They will all manage to find you a 400" red stag on their property if you let them know well enough in advance.