Sort of like the mail order bride business isn't it? I think that resident hunters in New Zealand see photos of visiting hunters posing proudly beside monster trophies and they know that the whole business is a charade.All it takes is a fat wallet and about the same skill level as shooting a milking cow and, hey presto, you are entered into the SCI or Boon and Crocket book as a mighty hunter.

These guys who go over to NZ and execute SCI record book heads on farms are often referred to as paddock warriors from what I hear.

'Paddock' because that's where they shoot, and 'warrior' because they're usually dressed up in head to toe camo and heavily armed.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam Wise:
These guys who go over to NZ and execute SCI record book heads on farms are often referred to as paddock warriors from what I hear.

'Paddock' because that's where they shoot, and 'warrior' because they're usually dressed up in head to toe camo and heavily armed.

Heavily armed?? Are you an anti-hunter or something?? Who the hell says that??

You guys really are hilarious.... an innocent bystander might think some of you were jealous or something??

Are you done shit-canning what other people do?? Doing things that has no negative effect on what you want to do?? Sheesh!!

I dont think the word jealous, is the right one, I think "contempt" fits the bill. No offence. I'm just saying.

Anyway, you wanted some local information on finding a 400" stag, and you wanted it cheaper than $15,000.

In order to help a fellow hunter out who might not be in the picture, the NZ guys pointed out that there is no such thing as a 400" wild stag in NZ that you can be guided onto for money that didn't grow up without an ear tag. You think different. Good luck with that.

We didn't realise that you didn't mind the paddock hunting that Sam mentioned, or he wouldn't have been so impolite as to mention his opinion of it I expect. Forgive us.
You said you had some knowledge about the NZ scene. What knowledge you do have, to me, sounds like game park advertising to be honest.

So you have your answer really, just ring around your game ranches and ask for prices. We honestly don't know who can give you a cheaper price on a 400" stag, we only know about wild animals. But I can sell you a couple of hinds for $60 though.

If you cant find your client a 400' stag then tell him I know where there is a decent stag up a river on the West Coast, about a two days walk in with a pack, and then up about 1200 metres. If he can carry enough for ten days hunting and dont mind getting his boots wet, I can take him to where he generally hangs out if he made it through the choppers this last year. Won't cost him a cent either if he doesnt get him. If he does get him I will charge him a dollar. He can carry his own stuff though, and if I cross a river then so does he. Thats not a bad offer.
So far I have 'guided" two Americans. I found them very pleasant company and very serious about their hunting and quite willing to do the hard work.

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
I dont think the word jealous, is the right one, I think "contempt" fits the bill. No offence. I'm just saying.

Anyway, you wanted some local information on finding a 400" stag, and you wanted it cheaper than $15,000.

In order to help a fellow hunter out who might not be in the picture, the NZ guys pointed out that there is no such thing as a 400" wild stag in NZ that you can be guided onto for money that didn't grow up without an ear tag. You think different. Good luck with that.

We didn't realise that you didn't mind the paddock hunting that Sam mentioned, or he wouldn't have been so impolite as to mention his opinion of it I expect. Forgive us.
You said you had some knowledge about the NZ scene. What knowledge you do have, to me, sounds like game park advertising to be honest.

So you have your answer really, just ring around your game ranches and ask for prices. We honestly don't know who can give you a cheaper price on a 400" stag, we only know about wild animals. But I can sell you a couple of hinds for $60 though.

If you cant find your client a 400' stag then tell him I know where there is a decent stag up a river on the West Coast, about a two days walk in with a pack, and then up about 1200 metres. If he can carry enough for ten days hunting and dont mind getting his boots wet, I can take him to where he generally hangs out if he made it through the choppers this last year. Won't cost him a cent either if he doesnt get him. If he does get him I will charge him a dollar. He can carry his own stuff though, and if I cross a river then so does he. Thats not a bad offer.
So far I have 'guided" two Americans. I found them very pleasant company and very serious about their hunting and quite willing to do the hard work.

you can make up a whole bunch of stuff about me - it doesnt mean it's the truth, just that you like making up bullshit stories and assumptions!!!

I didnt ask where I could buy a stag for under 15K ?? I asked no such thing... you are just having a little fantasy after a few beers methinks... Nowhere did I say I could find a 400class free range stag either. or that I prefer game ranches - all just pure BS!!

You 'guided' 2 americans that pleased you - good for you your Royal Highness ... you might actually find that more North American hunters are that way inclined if you took the time. Instead you would rather treat them and their needs with contempt hereabouts. A very sorry reception for visiting hunters

LOL got my Americans all mixed up. You guys all look the same to us. I am trying to put a scope on a Marlin and its just not working for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
LOL got my Americans all mixed up. You guys all look the same to us. I am trying to put a scope on a Marlin and its just not working for me.

Stop drinking!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Sam Wise:
These guys who go over to NZ and execute SCI record book heads on farms are often referred to as paddock warriors from what I hear.

'Paddock' because that's where they shoot, and 'warrior' because they're usually dressed up in head to toe camo and heavily armed.

Heavily armed?? Are you an anti-hunter or something?? Who the hell says that??

You guys really are hilarious.... an innocent bystander might think some of you were jealous or something??

Are you done shit-canning what other people do?? Doing things that has no negative effect on what you want to do?? Sheesh!!

Don't be so sure on that Matt. The effect of these places has seen much private land become out of bounds for hunting by Kiwis, and add to that the amount of access through these properties to public land behind that has also be locked up. Not to mention the live capture of chamois and tahr from the public resource to stock some of these paddocks. There is actually quite a negative impact.Not to mention the image this kind of shooting portrays too the wider public.

quote:

Heavily armed?? Are you an anti-hunter or something?? Who the hell says that??

Remember, it's not hunting Matt.

I say heavily armed because they usually come over with at least a 300 WM when all you need to execute a captive, tame stag is a 243 or 270.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam Wise:

quote:

Heavily armed?? Are you an anti-hunter or something?? Who the hell says that??

Remember, it's not hunting Matt.

I say heavily armed because they usually come over with at least a 300 WM when all you need to execute a captive, tame stag is a 243 or 270.

What do you mean all??? the .270 is the unchallenged king of the mountains... tame stags be blowed.

Gee Matt, you sure get wound up over over what goes on in New Zealand, particularly on the subject of canned hunts. I can only assume that you have a financial interest in promoting this industry. By your own admission you have very little hunting experience in our country yet you belittle the opinions of New Zealand hunters who have many years hunting experience. Perhaps it is you who are jealous.

been thinking about the heavily armed comment.
Hell at times I use a 375H&H. It definitely is a stigma we attach to visiting hunters, but its really not uncommon to see guys wandering the mountains now with artillery pieces of all magnitudes hoping to kill a deer at a K. I'm sure most still shoot the majority of their animals at less than 300 though.

I give up - you guys are too good for me... you can generalise all you want among yourselves...

Shanks - as I said before - the hunting of red stags in game reserves has no negative impact on local hunters there, nothing about other species. You can go down the 'portraying hunting in a negative light' argument, that's fine but I personally dont think it holds water. Maybe only when people harp-on about it and generalise broadly.

In closing, as I have said before in this thread... These are the facts - there is a very wide range of red stag experiences to be had in New Zealand. for myself I choose the totally free-ranging option because that is what I do but for many people game ranches will be the only option. Game ranch experiences vary widely - from crap paddock-shooting deals to ranches with proper breeding herds and good deer habitat.

I do not condone dropping farm bred stags into the wild and calling it free range. That is wrong and I have been lobbying against this practice (through SCI) myself. Only a small percentage of hunters come to New Zealand searching for 'monster' farm bred stags. Most are just looking for a good time and a chance at a good red stag trophy - be it in the (true) wild or game ranch.

What about the loss of access created by these places? don't forget many are situated on public lease land and have had a history of allowing public access thats now gone due to the almighty dollar.
Regardless of species, the fact these guys are coming to hunt a red stag is creating an equally offensive (to kiwi's) market for the other's. I don't think you can separate them that easily.

Well I shall add this to my list of "lessons learned" from AR....

Lesson #241 - Don't breathe a word about game ranches or big stags to Kiwis....as they get their panties all twisted up

But in all seriousness guys....I apologize....I did not realize it was such a sore subject. I appreciate that hunting behind a high fence is not for everyone....but I think painting all private estates/ranches with the same brush is more than just a little unfair. As Matt has stated, there are vast differences in a place that buys pen-raised stags from a breeder, and then releases them for the purpose of being shot soon after.....from the place that uses a high fence around thousands of acres of good habitat to manage a proper breeding population of Red Deer in hopes of producing high-quality mature animals.

I still do not know "if" or "how many" of the latter exist in New Zealand....but I have to believe there are a few. And I do understand that even these types of places, while appealing to me, are still not everyone's cup of tea.....but don't lump them together and pretend they are one and the same because they are not.

If your going to do the research into finding one that fits that description Eland Slayer, post it up. It will be interesting and informative.
Likewise Matt, If you know of some that breed in situ.

quote:

been thinking about the heavily armed comment.
Hell at times I use a 375H&H. It definitely is a stigma we attach to visiting hunters, but its really not uncommon to see guys wandering the mountains now with artillery pieces of all magnitudes hoping to kill a deer at a K. I'm sure most still shoot the majority of their animals at less than 300 though.

To be fair I shoot a 7mm RM so I shouldn't really be passing comment on what travelling hunters use. I do anyway though.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
What about the loss of access created by these places? don't forget many are situated on public lease land and have had a history of allowing public access thats now gone due to the almighty dollar.
Regardless of species, the fact these guys are coming to hunt a red stag is creating an equally offensive (to kiwi's) market for the other's. I don't think you can separate them that easily.

Public lease land?? Is that what you call agricultural leases over there?? Or are there game ranches on actual public estate?? I dont think so.

History?? Ancient history?? ... So if they hadnt put a high fence up but did manage the deer in the area for free-range safari hunting as an agro-tourism venture... would they still cut your free and easy access?? Of course they would.... Ergo - what you are really against, it seems is visiting OS hunters full stop and graziers making money from them - if loss of access is a beef with you. Not the rise of game ranches.

I could post some of the property names with the good game ranches but why would I do that on an open forum??

Complaints about tahr being abused - take that up with the helo-hunting proponents mate!! Lots of visiting hunters are duped into the helo deal - let me assure you of that. I have never, ever had an able bodied hunter ask me to facilitate a wham-bam tahr hunt for them BUT when you tell them about the real hunting opportunities their ears always prick up!! Can do!!

Chamois problems? Lots of problems with them - but I reckon it is a far stretch to say that visiting hunters are the biggest contributing factor to their decline in some areas.

Matt, you seem to be getting really emotional over this whole thing, so maybe take a moment.

May I suggest you play Big Game Hunter on Xbox. Funnily enough it requires about the same skill and fitness levels as a 400 SCI red stag shoot on a ranch.


The first post was a request for a 400 SCI red stag. That's what started this conversation, not a general request for a hunt on a property in NZ. You'd do well to remember what we're discussing here.

You're continuously misinterpreting our words to arrive at the conclusion that we're somehow against the hunting industry in general. The fact that I don't like farm shoots for hand reared stock animals doesn't mean I dislike the hunting industry in general, to imply this is irrational. You keep saying there is a grey area between a farm stag and a free range wild animal. I know. But we're not talking about the grey area, we're talking about a 400 SCI red stag.

You've been offered a handful of reasons why these shoots (not hunts) are bad for Kiwi hunters. For example, it limits the regular hunters access to public land through private, stags shot in the wild are viewed suspiciously because of the prevalence of ranches, the perception of the regular hunter among the public is diminished by the image of hunters shooting animals that answer to a name. I could go on.


To say that we are against over seas hunters generally is disingenuous. I've met American and European hunters and fishermen who came over to enjoy what NZ has to offer. To a man they've enjoyed their experiences here, which is great. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about the small but unfortunately growing proportion of 'hunters' who are coming from overseas to shoot farm animals.

Learn more about what you're discussing and stop defending the paddock warriors.

Sam Wise

quote:

Originally posted by Sam Wise:
Matt, you seem to be getting really emotional over this whole thing, so maybe take a moment.

May I suggest you play Big Game Hunter on Xbox. Funnily enough it requires about the same skill and fitness levels as a 400 SCI red stag shoot on a ranch.


The first post was a request for a 400 SCI red stag. That's what started this conversation, not a general request for a hunt on a property in NZ. You'd do well to remember what we're discussing here.

You're continuously misinterpreting our words to arrive at the conclusion that we're somehow against the hunting industry in general. The fact that I don't like farm shoots for hand reared stock animals doesn't mean I dislike the hunting industry in general, to imply this is irrational. You keep saying there is a grey area between a farm stag and a free range wild animal. I know. But we're not talking about the grey area, we're talking about a 400 SCI red stag.

You've been offered a handful of reasons why these shoots (not hunts) are bad for Kiwi hunters. For example, it limits the regular hunters access to public land through private, stags shot in the wild are viewed suspiciously because of the prevalence of ranches, the perception of the regular hunter among the public is diminished by the image of hunters shooting animals that answer to a name. I could go on.


To say that we are against over seas hunters generally is disingenuous. I've met American and European hunters and fishermen who came over to enjoy what NZ has to offer. To a man they've enjoyed their experiences here, which is great. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about the small but unfortunately growing proportion of 'hunters' who are coming from overseas to shoot farm animals.

Learn more about what you're discussing and stop defending the paddock warriors.

Sam Wise

So....Mr. Sam Wise, I have a question for you:

(From your tone in this post....it seems obvious to me that you have a sort of animosity towards people who choose to partake in a hunt behind a high fence.)

Do you not make any distinction between places that buy farm raised animals vs. places that manage naturally reproducing populations of Red Deer? Seems to me you lump them into the exact same category....

Please clear this up for me, because I am genuinely interested.

The Public Estate in the main is mostly under the control of DoC,[Dept of Conservation]and comprises about one third of the total land mass. Pastoral/agricultural/station leases are similar to your Australian leasehold system, leased from the Government, and to which the public has no right of access. In many cases the only way to access the DoC estate is by crossing pastoral leasehold. Since the advent of tourist driven canned hunts access to the publicly owned DoC estate is often denied.

Might I ask Matt,do you actually guide in New Zealand or just broker hunts?

and there I was thinking this discussion had run its course... although from my perspective we are starting to get off-track and a bit negative .

I can see this going downhill badly in the next day or two ...

It seems to have turned into a debate between New Zealanders trying to defend their heritage and a foreigner seeking to exploit it for personal gain. Wonder if he pays NZ tax?

quote:

So....Mr. Sam Wise, I have a question for you:

(From your tone in this post....it seems obvious to me that you have a sort of animosity towards people who choose to partake in a hunt behind a high fence.)

Do you not make any distinction between places that buy farm raised animals vs. places that manage naturally reproducing populations of Red Deer? Seems to me you lump them into the exact same category....

Please clear this up for me, because I am genuinely interested.

Eland Slayer,


It's a fair enough question. The answer is yes, I would make a distinction between a place which buys farm stock and a place where there is a self sustaining, breeding population of deer. In my post I referred to a grey area, this is in that grey area between a wild animal and a pet. I've seen a large fenced hunting property in Limpopo province which was huge and held a number of different species, managed where possible by culling. From the small amount of the property I saw it offered a hunt, not a shoot. Different to NZ ranches however.

What you must understand is that behind the wire shooting is looked down on by a lot of New Zealander's and I must admit I am no exception.

This is the best way I can put it. If you went over to NZ and shot a small runty stag on public land, I'd shake your hand and be genuinely impressed. If you shot a 20 point monster behind the wire I'd probably still shake your hand (no need to be rude), but I wouldn't be impressed.

Sam Wise

quote:

Originally posted by Sam Wise:

quote:

So....Mr. Sam Wise, I have a question for you:

(From your tone in this post....it seems obvious to me that you have a sort of animosity towards people who choose to partake in a hunt behind a high fence.)

Do you not make any distinction between places that buy farm raised animals vs. places that manage naturally reproducing populations of Red Deer? Seems to me you lump them into the exact same category....

Please clear this up for me, because I am genuinely interested.

Eland Slayer,


It's a fair enough question. The answer is yes, I would make a distinction between a place which buys farm stock and a place where there is a self sustaining, breeding population of deer. In my post I referred to a grey area, this is in that grey area between a wild animal and a pet. I've seen a large fenced hunting property in Limpopo province which was huge and held a number of different species, managed where possible by culling. From the small amount of the property I saw it offered a hunt, not a shoot. Different to NZ ranches however.

What you must understand is that behind the wire shooting is looked down on by a lot of New Zealander's and I must admit I am no exception.

This is the best way I can put it. If you went over to NZ and shot a small runty stag on public land, I'd shake your hand and be genuinely impressed. If you shot a 20 point monster behind the wire I'd probably still shake your hand (no need to be rude), but I wouldn't be impressed.

Sam Wise

Seems to be an honest enough answer....and I respect your opinion.

However, I also do not hunt to impress anyone....so if I ever do have the fortune to hunt a large stag in NZ, I do not require your approval.

We just have differing views on things....and that is fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Bon Ton:
The Public Estate in the main is mostly under the control of DoC,[Dept of Conservation]and comprises about one third of the total land mass. Pastoral/agricultural/station leases are similar to your Australian leasehold system, leased from the Government, and to which the public has no right of access. In many cases the only way to access the DoC estate is by crossing pastoral leasehold. Since the advent of tourist driven canned hunts access to the publicly owned DoC estate is often denied.

Might I ask Matt,do you actually guide in New Zealand or just broker hunts?

Thanks Bon Ton - I already was aware of that but I am sure others will be pleased to read it. I was just wondering why you (Shanks) would call pastoral lease land 'public', when there is no public access??

I do not guide hunters in New Zealand myself - there are PLENTY hunters there, far more qualified than me (in that country) - who I can employ to do that!!! Some of those hunters also work for me in Australia - as a rule Kiwi's are excellent workers and most are very professional.

BTW - as I posted before in relation to limiting access to leasehold land; if those same graziers set up free range operations in response to demand for red stag hunts from O/S, instead of establishing game parks on their leasehold .... dont you think they would limit thoroughfare to DOC estate anyway, if that is what they ARE doing?? Like it or not there will be huge demand for stag hunts in New Zealand, no matter how they are done. The place and the animals market themselves... no wonder so many international hunters want to go there (thousands!!) and there are sixty something outfitters in New Zealand (of all types, good and bad).

Some of you have put up reasons why game ranches are bad but I dont think any of them hold much water. I havent even started on why game ranches are good... that could be a whole other thread!!

At the moment, in my home state in Australia (NSW) we are tring very hard to have game parks/ranches legalised - it is illegal here at present. There is very little opposition (except from greens and other 'antis') - least of all local hunters - and there is a very long list of positive benefits. In other states here it IS legal - and the ill effects are negligible.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam Wise:


Eland Slayer,


It's a fair enough question. The answer is yes, I would make a distinction between a place which buys farm stock and a place where there is a self sustaining, breeding population of deer. In my post I referred to a grey area, this is in that grey area between a wild animal and a pet. I've seen a large fenced hunting property in Limpopo province which was huge and held a number of different species, managed where possible by culling. From the small amount of the property I saw it offered a hunt, not a shoot. Different to NZ ranches however.

What you must understand is that behind the wire shooting is looked down on by a lot of New Zealander's and I must admit I am no exception.

This is the best way I can put it. If you went over to NZ and shot a small runty stag on public land, I'd shake your hand and be genuinely impressed. If you shot a 20 point monster behind the wire I'd probably still shake your hand (no need to be rude), but I wouldn't be impressed.

Sam Wise

So 'behind wire' shooting in New Zealand (even if in a large area the animals are breeding in situ) is very uncool... but the EXACT same thing in South Africa is cool?? Just because it was bigger and they told you they dont bring animals in??

I alluded to this earlier - some Kiwis (and some Aussies too) will say how terrible it is to want to hunt in a game ranch but they fly to RSA and it's all OK!!!

Don't get me wrong here. I am not opposed to game ranches or overseas hunters visiting out shores.
One thing to remember is that deer are legally pests in New Zealand. Stock [deer] in captivity which are ear tagged belong to the owner. Deer without eartags running freely on the DoC estate, OR station[ranch]leasehold land are pests.They belong to whoever shoots them.Of course a hunter can be prosecuted for trespass with a firearm,but the deer legally remains his property. So we have a situation where private leaseholders are harbouring pests to sell the hunting rights. Clearly we have a lot of growing up to do in New Zealand with regard to managing our game. Matt one station you mention on your web page was 23,000 acres?? No way that is all freehold,it certainly didn't used to be.

I spent six months in NZ for school, probably the best 6 months of my life. I hunted with a bunch of Kiwis, one of whose dad was a farmer. He used to raise these monster stags. He told me that he could walk out to the paddock and whistle them over to him to feed them. When they were in their prime he would sell them to a game farm.

Another friend was a guide at one of these places. He was instructed to lead the client around for 3 days, away from any animals. Get the client muddy, maybe a little bloody, and when the client was starting to get a little worn down, bring him to the deer. He'd pop it and felt he earned his trophy.

I hunted free range reds, and had a blast. One time while driving with a buddy to go hunting I stopped to take this picture:



Beautiful animal behind a fence, and not the least bit concerned about us being less than 200 yards away.

If you want to have fun, see New Zealand, and get a phenomenal trophy, chase these shaggy buggers:

quote:

So 'behind wire' shooting in New Zealand (even if in a large area the animals are breeding in situ) is very uncool... but the EXACT same thing in South Africa is cool?? Just because it was bigger and they told you they dont bring animals in??

I alluded to this earlier - some Kiwis (and some Aussies too) will say how terrible it is to want to hunt in a game ranch but they fly to RSA and it's all OK!!!

There you go again with your misinterpretations Matt.

I was asked if I made a distinction between a game farm which took in farm bred animals and a ranch which had a self sustaining population. The answer was yes and I gave the example of a game ranch in S.A.

I wouldn't hunt behind the wire here or in S.A but that fact doesn't exclude me from distinguishing between the two, does it?

Once again, you've been presented with a number of examples of negative impacts from game farms in NZ but you continue to say they 'don't hold water'.

Hopefully you get the green light for game ranches over there Matt, so you don't have the inconvenience of coming over here to execute a tree head.

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
and there I was thinking this discussion had run its course... although from my perspective we are starting to get off-track and a bit negative .

I can see this going downhill badly in the next day or two ...

Ha ha Muzz old mate, I agree with you.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I alluded to this earlier - some Kiwis (and some Aussies too) will say how terrible it is to want to hunt in a game ranch but they fly to RSA and it's all OK!!!

Matt,

When you have done more than one safari to one place, you may see the difference.

Just saying ...

There is a big difference between a high fenced paddock with a farm pen raised stag being released into it, and a South African wild bred game ranch.

Lets take these two examples:

A person hunts a SAf high fenced property, at the end of the season. As well as unfenced places around the place for other species. Most of the animals spot you before you see them, and run after about a second. Then you track them for kilometres through thorn bush jess. They have been hard hunted all season and are wilder and more wary than the same species found OUTSIDE the high fence.

Then you have a farm pen raised stag, released a few days before the hunt into a high fenced hunting enclosure in NZ. The client says it was sporting, lots of brush and places to hide. He shoots it in daylight in the open grazing. Now if that stag was born and bred in that hunting enclosure which was only a thousand acres, and survived for months with hunters running around every week, the deer in that enclosure would be pretty much nocturnal and not placidly feeding in the daylight.

Third example and in Africa again. Hunting buffalo hard with little success. The PH suggests we have a break and hunt for plains game for a couple of days. The client guesses the crew want some fresh meat and are getting antsy about it so agrees. Hunts the place, shoots a zebra. Notices the animals aren't running as much as usual. First zebra he shot took several stalks and probably a good eight kilometres of combined tracking over the hunts, eight years before. Second zebra, shot a few days earlier in the Gwayi was also from animals which were quick to run, and wary. This third one and all the other animals seen are different. Even after the shot, the rest of the zebra only ran 50 metres and stopped to look back.

Sees some feed bags lying around back when having lunch. That night the PH says to the client, "Oh just wanted to let you know, they are supplementary feeding the game there, due to the drought." So the sound of a Landcruiser is not the sound of death approaching, but a dinner gong! Client decides "Lets go back to the search for a buffalo" and leave the canned hunting to other clients whom have a great time there harvesting trophies ...

Three real examples. The first one and third are my own, the second one I read about and read between the lines.

Yep people also criticise canned hunting in South Africa. All the time. There are also definitely game farms which buy at auctions and release animals in South Africa too. Hell in 1994 I flew in a chopper chasing animals for re-sale to other outfitters in Zimbabwe. No doubt there are some whom are pen raised too in SAf. Don't know, this is the Australian and New Zealand Hunting forum. All seems a bit off topic. But I bet you, the higher the relative trophy price for a South African hunt on a fenced property, the more likely it is re-stocked from auction bought animals.

A farm pen raised deer will take a couple years before it becomes truly wild and wary again.

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
Well I shall add this to my list of "lessons learned" from AR....

Lesson #241 - Don't breathe a word about game ranches or big stags to Kiwis....as they get their panties all twisted up

But in all seriousness guys....I apologize....I did not realize it was such a sore subject. I appreciate that hunting behind a high fence is not for everyone....but I think painting all private estates/ranches with the same brush is more than just a little unfair. As Matt has stated, there are vast differences in a place that buys pen-raised stags from a breeder, and then releases them for the purpose of being shot soon after.....from the place that uses a high fence around thousands of acres of good habitat to manage a proper breeding population of Red Deer in hopes of producing high-quality mature animals.

I still do not know "if" or "how many" of the latter exist in New Zealand....but I have to believe there are a few. And I do understand that even these types of places, while appealing to me, are still not everyone's cup of tea.....but don't lump them together and pretend they are one and the same because they are not.

Ha ha Wade, you asked a question which sets a lot of Kiwi hunters off.

As for your question, who are, or are there, outfitters who raise deer in high fenced hunting enclosures "in a wild state", I can't answer. I don't know of any, if they exist. No one else has named any.

It is much easier and cheaper to run stags in a deer farm, intensively. Or buy them from breeders and velvet farmers at an advanced age. And just put them out into the "hunting" blocks as very mature animals.

Especially the 400 + animals.

Maybe someone more knowledgeable about hunting game ranches in NZ can answer your specific question?

Looks like I'm gona have to set up the popcorn stall again ...

Was hoping not too but its all downhill from here....

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
What about the loss of access created by these places? don't forget many are situated on public lease land and have had a history of allowing public access thats now gone due to the almighty dollar.
Regardless of species, the fact these guys are coming to hunt a red stag is creating an equally offensive (to kiwi's) market for the other's. I don't think you can separate them that easily.

Public lease land?? Is that what you call agricultural leases over there?? Or are there game ranches on actual public estate?? I dont think so.

History?? Ancient history?? ... So if they hadnt put a high fence up but did manage the deer in the area for free-range safari hunting as an agro-tourism venture... would they still cut your free and easy access?? Of course they would.... Ergo - what you are really against, it seems is visiting OS hunters full stop and graziers making money from them - if loss of access is a beef with you. Not the rise of game ranches.

I could post some of the property names with the good game ranches but why would I do that on an open forum??

Complaints about tahr being abused - take that up with the helo-hunting proponents mate!! Lots of visiting hunters are duped into the helo deal - let me assure you of that. I have never, ever had an able bodied hunter ask me to facilitate a wham-bam tahr hunt for them BUT when you tell them about the real hunting opportunities their ears always prick up!! Can do!!

Chamois problems? Lots of problems with them - but I reckon it is a far stretch to say that visiting hunters are the biggest contributing factor to their decline in some areas.

The answer is yes,they would still cut the access, and I would still be against them, don't forget matt that this is not ancient history, but rather a phenomonen of the last 50 years, the last 35 years only in which they have started to become common.

So you won't post the good properties??? why not? To protect the bad? maybe your worried that we might have some added info on some of these good properties?
We've tried to explain why and how these places are affecting us, and why we have a general disproval of them, your ignoring that, thats your problem.
Public lease was a simple slip, pastoral is the term, but you need an understanding of how many of the leasee's give or gave access, and how much it changed when money became involved. Thats their right, we're just trying to make you understand why we feel the way we do. If you choose not to see this....oh well.

Your trying to separate the issue to protect one small part of what is a generally bad industry. Big news for you, the helihunt proponents and the guys selling the 400 ds stags are mostly the same guys.
I never said anything about a Chamois decline, you might need to learn to read a bit better.

So now I'm going to tell you what I really think. the trouble with your industry is that it has taken the hunt out of hunting. This rot starts and ends with the expectation and guarantee of success.
Its selling a false ideal to people who are happy not to know anything real about the country they have entered, the animal they hunt, or the true culture of the residents who hunt, as long as they get a huge set of antlers to take home.
out of the 70 odd game farms, i doubt there is 6 that live up to any standard.
There is nothing beneficial to the NZ hunter from this industry.
We tolerate it because we have no option, just don't try and bullshit us with some crap about standards or management or any other illusion that makes it look justifiable.

Popcorn cooked yet Muzza?

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:


The answer is yes,they would still cut the access, and I would still be against them, don't forget matt that this is not ancient history, but rather a phenomonen of the last 50 years, the last 35 years only in which they have started to become common.

So you won't post the good properties??? why not? To protect the bad? maybe your worried that we might have some added info on some of these good properties?
We've tried to explain why and how these places are affecting us, and why we have a general disproval of them, your ignoring that, thats your problem.
Public lease was a simple slip, pastoral is the term, but you need an understanding of how many of the leasee's give or gave access, and how much it changed when money became involved. Thats their right, we're just trying to make you understand why we feel the way we do. If you choose not to see this....oh well.

Your trying to separate the issue to protect one small part of what is a generally bad industry. Big news for you, the helihunt proponents and the guys selling the 400 ds stags are mostly the same guys.
I never said anything about a Chamois decline, you might need to learn to read a bit better.

So now I'm going to tell you what I really think. the trouble with your industry is that it has taken the hunt out of hunting. This rot starts and ends with the expectation and guarantee of success.
Its selling a false ideal to people who are happy not to know anything real about the country they have entered, the animal they hunt, or the true culture of the residents who hunt, as long as they get a huge set of antlers to take home.
out of the 70 odd game farms, i doubt there is 6 that live up to any standard.
There is nothing beneficial to the NZ hunter from this industry.
We tolerate it because we have no option, just don't try and bullshit us with some crap about standards or management or any other illusion that makes it look justifiable.

I believe that you are judging the whole industry by the actions and enterprise of a few.

And you readily admit that you would be in the same situation or worse (re:access)- were those stations not to be high-fenced but run as free-range safari properties - SO... what you have a problem with REALLY is large numbers of O/S hunters coming to your country. There is no other way to read it I'm afraid. All this BS about trophies this and that and bringing hunting into disrepute ... is just utter bunk. Private landowners have a resource that they are using to make money and protect the deer that are on their place. You are against the safari industry PERIOD - feel free to admit it!!

And you DID mention chamois above, by the way...

I can show you an email from just last week, an email from a very, very large landowner company on S Island, runs free-range & game park hunts for reds and tahr (and others)... flat out refusing to do helicopter hunts. This is one of the biggest outfitters in turnover and they have the biggest game park too... I know that there are quite a lot of ethical operators out there... you folks may just not know them. Things change too - this company has changed hands and management a few times recently.

But I guess you will say that just the fact that they HAVE a game park makes them unethical....

quote:

Popcorn cooked yet Muzza?

Shit - it burnt while I was reading you guys posts ...

Might go and get my wet weather gear , looks like the muds gonna start slinging soon .

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:


There is a big difference between a high fenced paddock with a farm pen raised stag being released into it, and a South African wild bred game ranch.

But you do not make any distinction between game ranches within New Zealand... that is the point I am trying to make. Are some game ranches in New Zealand run as a good ranch in RSA would be run?? I say yes there are some. Others just keep crapping-on about 'farm bred christmas trees' ...

quote:

Originally posted by Bon Ton:
Don't get me wrong here. I am not opposed to game ranches or overseas hunters visiting out shores.
One thing to remember is that deer are legally pests in New Zealand. Stock [deer] in captivity which are ear tagged belong to the owner. Deer without eartags running freely on the DoC estate, OR station[ranch]leasehold land are pests.They belong to whoever shoots them.Of course a hunter can be prosecuted for trespass with a firearm,but the deer legally remains his property. So we have a situation where private leaseholders are harbouring pests to sell the hunting rights. Clearly we have a lot of growing up to do in New Zealand with regard to managing our game. Matt one station you mention on your web page was 23,000 acres?? No way that is all freehold,it certainly didn't used to be.

Yes 23,000 acres with wild red deer and chamois - of course it is not freehold it is leasehold land!!

Yes they are harboouring pests for their profit. I guess hunters (are trying to) harbour 'pests' like tahr and wapiti on public land too, for their own benefit. Same thing....

NZ hunters dont seem to like seeing outfitters and landowners profiting from the animals or hunting. Even though there ARE demonstrable benefits to hunters. Yes there may be some loss of private land access but that comes with the demand for NZ hunting being high!!

quote:

But I guess you will say that just the fact that they HAVE a game park makes them unethical....

No one said fenced shooting was unethical. If we were arguing that then we'd be arguing that farming was unethical as well.

We're simply saying to you that ranch shooting is not hunting, and that, in fact, it's much like farming. There's nothing wrong with farm animals being killed to sell or eat and that's essentially what's being done on ranch shoots.

Issue's arise though when, instead of just killing the stag, the 'hunter' puts it on the wall and acts like a hero. That's where the ranch shoots differ from farming.