quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
And Matt, those stags look like wild stags and what can be achieved simply through good management and letting good blood get to a decent age. I'm guessing the best of those would go 280- 300, Its realistic, but not what we are talking about is it?

Didnt I say that below the photos???

Relax Matt, I was kind of agreeing with you. Though what you said was under 400, I reckoned they were under 300.

Eland slayer.
Now you have an insight, what would you prefer?

A 400ds park animal, or if you put in the time on a free range, something nearing 300 thats a more honest representation?

Or a goat at $1000. Who in their right mind would pay a $1000 + day fee to shoot a bloody goat

quote:

Originally posted by Bon Ton:
Or a goat at $1000. Who in their right mind would pay a $1000 + day fee to shoot a bloody goat

If someone was on a guided hunt and really wanted a big trophy goat, an extra trophy - I think a lot of hunters would consider that a pretty good thing?? Not everyone of course.... No one would spend that on some pissy little goat. I dont know about Kiwis but Aussies have been known to book quite a lot of guided goat hunts chasing a big trophy and spend quite a bit more than that doing it.

Shanks I just said that there were no 400 class stags in those photos 280-300 means the same thing. I wasnt claiming anything else..

Pretty sure Donna Boddingtons is 300+ (SCI that is)...

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Eland slayer.
Now you have an insight, what would you prefer?

A 400ds park animal, or if you put in the time on a free range, something nearing 300 thats a more honest representation?

To be honest, I have no desire to spend thousands of dollars and fly all the way to New Zealand to hunt Red Deer unless there is a high probability of me getting at least a 350"+ stag. I'm sure hunting them free-range is an absolute blast....but I probably would not come to New Zealand for it. I have absolutely no problem hunting on a high fenced ranch (or "game park" as you guys call it). However, I am also not interested in shooting a pen-raised stag that was released. If I wanted to do that....I could easily do it here in Texas and for less money.

I do believe there are legitimate ranch hunts available in New Zealand where the deer are managed behind a fence, but without breeding in paddocks. This is what I'm interested in doing. High fences are not offensive to me at all....they are a great management tool when used correctly. I have hunted high fenced properties many times here in Texas and have had some great hunts (some where I even went home empty-handed).

So there's your answer.....

....BUT....

I would like to add, that I would also like to visit NZ to hunt Tahr and Chamois someday (without a helicopter).....so I'm almost positive I will make it to your wonderful country at some point.

I just get so tired of hearing all the people arguing and complaining about high fences, and how their method of hunting (public land, leased land, etc...) is the only "TRUE" method of hunting....and how anyone that doesn't do it their way is not a "REAL" hunter, or is somehow less of a man.

I am a trophy hunter, I like to hunt and shoot trophy animals. To me, a 280" 12 pt. stag is not a trophy....so I'm not going to make a special trip to NZ to hunt one that size. I am not interested in SCI or any other record book, and I could not possible care less about any of that garbage.

However, I would probably jump on an opportunity to hunt a free-range 280" 12 pt. stag IN ADDITION to a Tahr/Chamois hunt.....

I know that everyone doesn't agree with my stance on hunting and high fences....but I do not try to push my ideals onto others. That is why it irritates me to hear some put down people just for hunting behind a fence, or using a guide, or whatever.....while maintaining their "Holier than thou" attitude.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:


Thats approaching the comment that got Gryph time out....... Just saying.

I didnt know that a comment got him time-out??

Point taken... sorry Carleson Hwy - I dont know who you are, so I dont really KNOW you are an arsehole... but you were being rather condescending and rude.

Matt, If I upset you its because I am simply replying in kind - because your attitude is patronising - you are telling me how hunting really is in my country.

I am telling you that you are simply another conduit for advertising from game parks, none of your knowledge seems to be first hand, and you dont really know what your talking about.

I have pointed out several times that equating hunting theme parks with any sort of international hunting reputation NZ may have is absurd.

your insistance that the hunters of the world coming to NZ are only interested in gauranteed trophys of record book size that can be taken in five days - so that is what is supplied - is just ridiculous.
Sure, some of them, like Mr Eland here, no disrepect intended to the man,
But there will be a tidal surge of others who would come if they were not put off by your business adverising - multi thousand dollar hunts they cannot afford and seemingly no 'real' hunting in the country apart from that. Bollocks.

What you have is a high value niche market built on incorrect reflections of the hunting situation in my country.

Your implication is that I must be the best goddamn hunter on this whole forum to have done as well as I have without booking onto your 23,000 acre ex-sheep farm for a farm stag of a gauranteed size.
I accept the compliment.



As an aside, it seems the cost of a wild goat has gone up form $600 to a $1000?
I am going out this weekend to go goat shooting in central Otago, I fully expect to shoot between 10 and 20, not that many, to keep numbers down and to test bullet performace and check if my rifle is still sighted in.
Thats about...what - $10,000 worth in an afternoon? To be honest I rarely shoot goats as I begrudge wasting a perfectly good cartridge on them. A dollar is a dollar.

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:


Thats approaching the comment that got Gryph time out....... Just saying.

I didnt know that a comment got him time-out??

Point taken... sorry Carleson Hwy - I dont know who you are, so I dont really KNOW you are an arsehole... but you were being rather condescending and rude.

Matt, If I upset you its because I am simply replying in kind - because your attitude is patronising - you are telling me how hunting really is in my country.

I am telling you that you are simply another conduit for advertising from game parks, none of your knowledge seems to be first hand, and you dont really know what your talking about.

I have pointed out several times that equating hunting theme parks with any sort of international hunting reputation NZ may have is absurd.

your insistance that the hunters of the world coming to NZ are only interested in gauranteed trophys of record book size that can be taken in five days - so that is what is supplied - is just ridiculous.
Sure, some of them, like Mr Eland here, no disrepect intended to the man,
But there will be a tidal surge of others who would come if they were not put off by your business adverising - multi thousand dollar hunts they cannot afford and seemingly no 'real' hunting in the country apart from that. Bollocks.

What you have is a high value niche market built on incorrect reflections of the hunting situation in my country.

Your implication is that I must be the best goddamn hunter on this whole forum to have done as well as I have without booking onto your 23,000 acre ex-sheep farm for a farm stag of a gauranteed size.
I accept the compliment.



As an aside, it seems the cost of a wild goat has gone up form $600 to a $1000?
I am going out this weekend to go goat shooting in central Otago, I fully expect to shoot between 10 and 20, not that many, to keep numbers down and to test bullet performace and check if my rifle is still sighted in.
Thats about...what - $10,000 worth in an afternoon? To be honest I rarely shoot goats as I begrudge wasting a perfectly good cartridge on them. A dollar is a dollar.

I do not know you, but I will agree with Matt on his comment about you sounding very condescending and rude.

You make several generalized and exaggerated statements in the post above....and for what reason??

I mean, seriously, why say some of those things?? What is accomplished by saying them??

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:


Thats approaching the comment that got Gryph time out....... Just saying.

I didnt know that a comment got him time-out??

Point taken... sorry Carleson Hwy - I dont know who you are, so I dont really KNOW you are an arsehole... but you were being rather condescending and rude.

Matt, If I upset you its because I am simply replying in kind - because your attitude is patronising - you are telling me how hunting really is in my country.

I am telling you that you are simply another conduit for advertising from game parks, none of your knowledge seems to be first hand, and you dont really know what your talking about.

I have pointed out several times that equating hunting theme parks with any sort of international hunting reputation NZ may have is absurd.

your insistance that the hunters of the world coming to NZ are only interested in gauranteed trophys of record book size that can be taken in five days - so that is what is supplied - is just ridiculous.
Sure, some of them, like Mr Eland here, no disrepect intended to the man,
But there will be a tidal surge of others who would come if they were not put off by your business adverising - multi thousand dollar hunts they cannot afford and seemingly no 'real' hunting in the country apart from that. Bollocks.

What you have is a high value niche market built on incorrect reflections of the hunting situation in my country.

Your implication is that I must be the best goddamn hunter on this whole forum to have done as well as I have without booking onto your 23,000 acre ex-sheep farm for a farm stag of a gauranteed size.
I accept the compliment.



As an aside, it seems the cost of a wild goat has gone up form $600 to a $1000?
I am going out this weekend to go goat shooting in central Otago, I fully expect to shoot between 10 and 20, not that many, to keep numbers down and to test bullet performace and check if my rifle is still sighted in.
Thats about...what - $10,000 worth in an afternoon? To be honest I rarely shoot goats as I begrudge wasting a perfectly good cartridge on them. A dollar is a dollar.

I do not know you, but I will agree with Matt on his comment about you sounding very condescending and rude.

You make several generalized and exaggerated statements in the post above....and for what reason??

I mean, seriously, why say some of those things?? What is accomplished by saying them??

Wade, which things?

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:


Matt, If I upset you its because I am simply replying in kind - because your attitude is patronising - you are telling me how hunting really is in my country.

I am telling you that you are simply another conduit for advertising from game parks, none of your knowledge seems to be first hand, and you dont really know what your talking about.

I have pointed out several times that equating hunting theme parks with any sort of international hunting reputation NZ may have is absurd.

your insistance that the hunters of the world coming to NZ are only interested in gauranteed trophys of record book size that can be taken in five days - so that is what is supplied - is just ridiculous.
Sure, some of them, like Mr Eland here, no disrepect intended to the man,
But there will be a tidal surge of others who would come if they were not put off by your business adverising - multi thousand dollar hunts they cannot afford and seemingly no 'real' hunting in the country apart from that. Bollocks.

What you have is a high value niche market built on incorrect reflections of the hunting situation in my country.

Your implication is that I must be the best goddamn hunter on this whole forum to have done as well as I have without booking onto your 23,000 acre ex-sheep farm for a farm stag of a gauranteed size.
I accept the compliment.



As an aside, it seems the cost of a wild goat has gone up form $600 to a $1000?
I am going out this weekend to go goat shooting in central Otago, I fully expect to shoot between 10 and 20, not that many, to keep numbers down and to test bullet performace and check if my rifle is still sighted in.
Thats about...what - $10,000 worth in an afternoon? To be honest I rarely shoot goats as I begrudge wasting a perfectly good cartridge on them. A dollar is a dollar.

You must have very low comprehension skills to manage to twist the words of others around so greatly.

I was never commenting on YOUR hunting I am only talking about the expectations and desires of inbound hunters, especially from N.America.

Nowhere did I say there is no real hunting...

If you think it is a better scenario and you want the public land flooded with inbound hunters looking for a cheap hunt - then you can promote that all you like!! I will stick to promoting 'options'... I know that inbound hunters would prefer options and not be rail-roaded into this hunt or that hunt.

$1000 goat?? I was only responding to Bon Ton's question about trophy value. Not saying that is what they are worth at all?? Somehow you can equate 10 or 20 culled goats to $10,000 ...

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:


Thats approaching the comment that got Gryph time out....... Just saying.

I didnt know that a comment got him time-out??

Point taken... sorry Carleson Hwy - I dont know who you are, so I dont really KNOW you are an arsehole... but you were being rather condescending and rude.

Matt, If I upset you its because I am simply replying in kind - because your attitude is patronising - you are telling me how hunting really is in my country.

I am telling you that you are simply another conduit for advertising from game parks, none of your knowledge seems to be first hand, and you dont really know what your talking about.

I have pointed out several times that equating hunting theme parks with any sort of international hunting reputation NZ may have is absurd.

your insistance that the hunters of the world coming to NZ are only interested in gauranteed trophys of record book size that can be taken in five days - so that is what is supplied - is just ridiculous.
Sure, some of them, like Mr Eland here, no disrepect intended to the man,
But there will be a tidal surge of others who would come if they were not put off by your business adverising - multi thousand dollar hunts they cannot afford and seemingly no 'real' hunting in the country apart from that. Bollocks.

What you have is a high value niche market built on incorrect reflections of the hunting situation in my country.

Your implication is that I must be the best goddamn hunter on this whole forum to have done as well as I have without booking onto your 23,000 acre ex-sheep farm for a farm stag of a gauranteed size.
I accept the compliment.



As an aside, it seems the cost of a wild goat has gone up form $600 to a $1000?
I am going out this weekend to go goat shooting in central Otago, I fully expect to shoot between 10 and 20, not that many, to keep numbers down and to test bullet performace and check if my rifle is still sighted in.
Thats about...what - $10,000 worth in an afternoon? To be honest I rarely shoot goats as I begrudge wasting a perfectly good cartridge on them. A dollar is a dollar.

I do not know you, but I will agree with Matt on his comment about you sounding very condescending and rude.

You make several generalized and exaggerated statements in the post above....and for what reason??

I mean, seriously, why say some of those things?? What is accomplished by saying them??

Wade, which things?

"hunting theme parks"

"without booking onto your 23,000 acre ex-sheep farm for a farm stag of a gauranteed size"

"$10,000 worth of goats in an afternoon"

.....the bottom line is this....

Whether you want to admit it or not, estate/ranch hunting in New Zealand is ABSOLUTELY THE #1 PRIMARY TYPE OF HUNTING we hear about in the U.S.....and it is what makes the vast majority of us want to come hunt there. Personally, I have never met a single person that went to NZ and hunted public land, or went just so they could hunt some scraggly horned stag. But I have probably met 100 people that went to NZ to hunt on a ranch/estate and go after a big stag.

Like it or not....that's the way it is.

quote:

You, I just dont think you have much of a clue about any of this stuff and are just copying what others are writing...

I'm a New Zealander, and I've hunted New Zealand for more than a decade.

So Matt, Why do you feel entitled to tell me how things are in my own country and then discount how I believe things are?

And then you have the nerve to say that others here are condescending and patronising towards you.

By the way, I've had a great idea.

You could set up an Xbox with Big Game Hunter. Get surround sound for it, HD TV, the whole works. Then you could put your hunters on it and charge them $15,000 to do a red stag hunt in New Zealand (virtually). Once they are finished with their hunt, you can print out a picture of the virtual stag they shot.

There are numerous benefits and I will list a few.

Walking around on a farm is hazardous. This is eliminated.

Flying over to NZ is time consuming. This is eliminated.

There is no dip and pack.

What do you think?

Condescending enough?

Oh you guys...I have said my point about 3 or 4 different ways but it's not getting across. I am starting to sound insistant even to my own ears.
Gentleman, as always, it has been a pleasure.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam Wise:

quote:

You, I just dont think you have much of a clue about any of this stuff and are just copying what others are writing...

I'm a New Zealander, and I've hunted New Zealand for more than a decade.

So Matt, Why do you feel entitled to tell me how things are in my own country and then discount how I believe things are?

And then you have the nerve to say that others here are condescending and patronising towards you.

By the way, I've had a great idea.

You could set up an Xbox with Big Game Hunter. Get surround sound for it, HD TV, the whole works. Then you could put your hunters on it and charge them $15,000 to do a red stag hunt in New Zealand (virtually). Once they are finished with their hunt, you can print out a picture of the virtual stag they shot.

There are numerous benefits and I will list a few.

Walking around on a farm is hazardous. This is eliminated.

Flying over to NZ is time consuming. This is eliminated.

There is no dip and pack.

What do you think?

Condescending enough?

I am only saying what the realities of the hunting industry in NZ is (the red deer in particular, related to this thread), you can please yourself with what you do. I am not going to tell you what you should and shouldnt do and what is right and wrong for you.

You can take your game idea and run with it - I will stick to hunting....

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:


Thats approaching the comment that got Gryph time out....... Just saying.

I didnt know that a comment got him time-out??

Point taken... sorry Carleson Hwy - I dont know who you are, so I dont really KNOW you are an arsehole... but you were being rather condescending and rude.

Matt, If I upset you its because I am simply replying in kind - because your attitude is patronising - you are telling me how hunting really is in my country.

I am telling you that you are simply another conduit for advertising from game parks, none of your knowledge seems to be first hand, and you dont really know what your talking about.

I have pointed out several times that equating hunting theme parks with any sort of international hunting reputation NZ may have is absurd.

your insistance that the hunters of the world coming to NZ are only interested in gauranteed trophys of record book size that can be taken in five days - so that is what is supplied - is just ridiculous.
Sure, some of them, like Mr Eland here, no disrepect intended to the man,
But there will be a tidal surge of others who would come if they were not put off by your business adverising - multi thousand dollar hunts they cannot afford and seemingly no 'real' hunting in the country apart from that. Bollocks.

What you have is a high value niche market built on incorrect reflections of the hunting situation in my country.

Your implication is that I must be the best goddamn hunter on this whole forum to have done as well as I have without booking onto your 23,000 acre ex-sheep farm for a farm stag of a gauranteed size.
I accept the compliment.



As an aside, it seems the cost of a wild goat has gone up form $600 to a $1000?
I am going out this weekend to go goat shooting in central Otago, I fully expect to shoot between 10 and 20, not that many, to keep numbers down and to test bullet performace and check if my rifle is still sighted in.
Thats about...what - $10,000 worth in an afternoon? To be honest I rarely shoot goats as I begrudge wasting a perfectly good cartridge on them. A dollar is a dollar.

I do not know you, but I will agree with Matt on his comment about you sounding very condescending and rude.

You make several generalized and exaggerated statements in the post above....and for what reason??

I mean, seriously, why say some of those things?? What is accomplished by saying them??

Wade, which things?

"hunting theme parks"

"without booking onto your 23,000 acre ex-sheep farm for a farm stag of a gauranteed size"

"$10,000 worth of goats in an afternoon"

.....the bottom line is this....

Whether you want to admit it or not, estate/ranch hunting in New Zealand is ABSOLUTELY THE #1 PRIMARY TYPE OF HUNTING we hear about in the U.S.....and it is what makes the vast majority of us want to come hunt there. Personally, I have never met a single person that went to NZ and hunted public land, or went just so they could hunt some scraggly horned stag. But I have probably met 100 people that went to NZ to hunt on a ranch/estate and go after a big stag.

Like it or not....that's the way it is.

So a few hundred overseas guests come to New Zealand annually and shoot a large antlered purpose bred stag. But with over a million licensed firearm owners resident in the country plus a good number of overseas hunters who arrive to hunt genuine free range animals, tell me which method do you think might be the way most hunters obtain their trophies,be it horn or meat
Your fifty or so game ranches cater to a far lessor number of shooters.That's fine
by me,however many Kiwis find that type of horn collecting abhorrent. It smacks of elitism. When game animals were released into New Zealand one hundred and fifty years ago it was with the intention to make hunting readily available to
all,wealthy and poor alike.Now New Zealanders are facing the prospect of being shut out of their heritage by wealthy foreigners.The essence of hunting is to pit yourself against the animal in the wild, following a guide around a farm in order to shoot a purpose bred animal is just bullshitting yourself.

Ok boys . Lets just calm down a bit eh?

Its an emotive subject , very well covered so far without too much agro , but we're starting to get into the "he said - she said " sort of stuff that always ends in tears .

Maybe its at the stage were we all agree that we accept each others viewpoint as being valid to them , but we dont necessarily agree with it .

And try not to get into shit-slinging ...

Can anyone show me where The Duke of Beford and Emperor Franz Joseph said they wanted the Tahr and Chamois they gave New Zealand to be for everyone to hunt?.

The first Red Deer hunting season was five pounds per license doesn't sound like hunting for all.

Can anyone show that they didn't? I don't recall a license fee for Tahr and Chamois TP. And my great grandfather who was a farm laborer, wasn't releasing deer for anyone but the likes of himself and future generation's.

I do feel bad if Kiwi hunters being locked-out of private lands... unfortunately that is happening all around the world though, as populations GROW and more pressure is on.

Bon Ton: If you think there are only a few hundred inbound hunters taking all the stags with those 50 ranches or 70 outfitters, you are selling it way short. The top 5 biggest inbound outfitters alone would account for 300 hunters!! We are talking more than one thousand inbounds, who are unlike the local Kiwi hunters (maybe just happy to get some meat and a chance at some antlers)...

I'm not surprised Matt. It doesn't affect me at all and never will,I keep my freezer full all year which is all I want. Still amazed that someone would pay a thousand to shoot a goat,but to each his own.

Top Predator,
The various acclimatisation societies had the biggest hand in the release of game animals,and although there was a modest license fee which anybody could purchase early on,there were no restrictions on who could buy one.
And I believe that deer,Tahr and Chamois were gifted to the people of New Zealand. The Wapiti certainly were.

As Muzza said gents, take a deep breath..take your tablets and calm down. Have your say and try to leave the agro out. In fact I think we are flogging a dead horse here a bit...

and you said it wouldn't go past 3 pages Muzza....

He He .....in large part the recent posts appear to have been influenced by a perspective issue.
You can see similar perspectives exhibited in recreational vs commercial fishing discussions.

The commercial activities have different drivers, they have business imperatives to be successful & provide a return on capital expenditure & operating costs. as a consumer business they are driven by client expectations being met by outcomes .

Guided hunts have very different imperatives to DIY hunts ( just the same as guided fishing has different imperatives to DIY fishing) .

Some of those client driven guided hunting expectations travel a thin path between shooting & hunting, & some may as well be shooting a tethered animal.

Broad acre herd management is little different to wild herd management The guided hunting experience in either is little different either.The client is paying for expertise with an expectation of better outcomes than DIY.

The timescale for a return on investment is different between broad acre herd management & wild herd management, and there is more opportunity for a faster herd improvement outcome in broad acre herd management.

High fence hunting , we know what it is & if the client wants it & is prepared to pay for it , it will happen..........just don't pass it off as fair chase.

Its unreasonable tho to infer that any broad acre herd management & guided hunting is akin to high fence hunting.

Anyone who thinks that the NZ concerns of high fence hunting being passed off as fair chase & private property fencing off access to wild herd hunting areas is unique to NZ is sadly mistaken
the issues exist in OZ in some areas with several species & exist in the US........as do the issues of client expectations in guided hunting of "shooting" a trophy lead to dissatisfaction when the outcome is an unproductive "hunting" experience.

It is a measure of the hunter as to what they take away from an unproductive guided hunting experience........as are the lies they tell about a high fence harvest being fair chase.

The good operators & good outfitters tell it like it is before the client pays his money and tailor the days paid for & trophy fees ( where applicable ), to the hunters expectations & desires.
ITS A BUSINESS for heaven's sake.
Its not DIY recreational hunting and it never will be...........broad acre game management & guided hunting can get pretty close tho ........ the issue is how broad those acres are as to how close the experience is.

Trying to inject DIY recreational hunting perceptions into the business of guided hunting is a flawed perspective.

Finally .........in fishing there are comparable activities to both broad acre herd management (stocking individual streams or large impoundments ) and High fence hunting (purchasing large fish farm reared stock & releasing them in a smallish dam, where the only fly they respond to for weeks is one that looks like a chook pellet & not any natural forage species).
Now you tell me.........does any angler who is guided on a stocked stream or large impoundment see his/her experience as anything other than "fair chase" .
Do some anglers who catch oversize fish farm sourced trophy fish in small dams pass their experience off as fair chase.

.........sound familiar.

A pretty good summary there Denis!!

quote:

Originally posted by DenisB:

Do some anglers who catch oversize fish farm sourced trophy fish in small dams pass their experience off as fair chase.

.........sound familiar.

Even the ones who dont think much of this activity pass it off as simply good fun. Similar hunting experiences should be no different.

You mentioned game ranch hunters being happy if and when they dont get what they want... yes that is exactly true, so long as they were not lied too (ie.duped) they should be happy if they have a good time and not pull the trigger and the outfitter should show a similar grace. It is 'hunting' after all (just not what everyone else considers to be hunting) and participants should be equally gracious in defeat! It does happen too!!

quote:

and you said it wouldn't go past 3 pages Muzza....

I am indeed surprised at the length of the discussion Bakes. And the generally good nature of it all.

Its certainly had a fair sort of a thrashing , and I guess we will all have to agree to disagree without getting too bitter and twisted.

No doubt the subject will be raised again , and the same arguments put forth.

Live and let live. I think the majority appeared to be against helicopter assisted hunting.[not to be confused with being transported to the hunting area]
This afternoon the United future party, as part of their support deal post election, is negotiating with the ruling National Party on the heli-hunt issue. Oh, and the game council as well. Could be an historic moment in New Zealands hunting history. Of course these are politicians negotiating,it could also be a fizzer.

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Eland slayer.
Now you have an insight, what would you prefer?

A 400ds park animal, or if you put in the time on a free range, something nearing 300 thats a more honest representation?

To be honest, I have no desire to spend thousands of dollars and fly all the way to New Zealand to hunt Red Deer unless there is a high probability of me getting at least a 350"+ stag. I'm sure hunting them free-range is an absolute blast....but I probably would not come to New Zealand for it. I have absolutely no problem hunting on a high fenced ranch (or "game park" as you guys call it). However, I am also not interested in shooting a pen-raised stag that was released. If I wanted to do that....I could easily do it here in Texas and for less money.

Thanks for your honesty. It was the answer I expected, yet it still leaves me feeling a little sad. Do you understand how the very garauntee that you will shoot the stag you desire takes away from the principle of hunting in many of our eyes? I actually don't see that as an ethic, but a statement of fact. Without a reasonable probability of not succeeding, its not a hunt and being able to stipulate a size bracket takes that probability completely away.

I do believe there are legitimate ranch hunts available in New Zealand where the deer are managed behind a fence, but without breeding in paddocks. This is what I'm interested in doing. High fences are not offensive to me at all....they are a great management tool when used correctly. I have hunted high fenced properties many times here in Texas and have had some great hunts (some where I even went home empty-handed).

I genuinely hope you find a property like you state, and would love to think there was a chance that you may go home empty handed. Not out of spite, but to prove us wrong here in our impression of what we see happening.

So there's your answer.....

....BUT....

I would like to add, that I would also like to visit NZ to hunt Tahr and Chamois someday (without a helicopter).....so I'm almost positive I will make it to your wonderful country at some point.

If you do, be sure to look me up. I will even try and convince you to share a hunt with me for Tahr and Chamois in my manor.

I just get so tired of hearing all the people arguing and complaining about high fences, and how their method of hunting (public land, leased land, etc...) is the only "TRUE" method of hunting....and how anyone that doesn't do it their way is not a "REAL" hunter, or is somehow less of a man.

Its something you will have to get used to I'm afraid. Its not about manliness, or doing it our way, but much more about respect

I am a trophy hunter, I like to hunt and shoot trophy animals. To me, a 280" 12 pt. stag is not a trophy....so I'm not going to make a special trip to NZ to hunt one that size. I am not interested in SCI or any other record book, and I could not possible care less about any of that garbage.

And this becomes the point that will stick with most of us, because outside of a fence, where the genes of success are paramount, a trophy is indeed 300ds. Its a strange world where a 300ds stag is not available to every hunter in their lifetime, yet a 350 is available to any who wish it.

However, I would probably jump on an opportunity to hunt a free-range 280" 12 pt. stag IN ADDITION to a Tahr/Chamois hunt.....

I know that everyone doesn't agree with my stance on hunting and high fences....but I do not try to push my ideals onto others. That is why it irritates me to hear some put down people just for hunting behind a fence, or using a guide, or whatever.....while maintaining their "Holier than thou" attitude.

Thats just life my friend, terms like holier than thou are generally just used in a passive aggressive manor to try and cast dispersion on those who have the ability to disagree.
What I take from this thread, is that close on 3 generations of kiwis are almost unanimous in their disregard of this activity, Its not a kiwi activity, yet we are asked to accept it because it partially resemble something we do.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Eland slayer.
Now you have an insight, what would you prefer?

A 400ds park animal, or if you put in the time on a free range, something nearing 300 thats a more honest representation?

To be honest, I have no desire to spend thousands of dollars and fly all the way to New Zealand to hunt Red Deer unless there is a high probability of me getting at least a 350"+ stag. I'm sure hunting them free-range is an absolute blast....but I probably would not come to New Zealand for it. I have absolutely no problem hunting on a high fenced ranch (or "game park" as you guys call it). However, I am also not interested in shooting a pen-raised stag that was released. If I wanted to do that....I could easily do it here in Texas and for less money.

Thanks for your honesty. It was the answer I expected, yet it still leaves me feeling a little sad. Do you understand how the very garauntee that you will shoot the stag you desire takes away from the principle of hunting in many of our eyes? I actually don't see that as an ethic, but a statement of fact. Without a reasonable probability of not succeeding, its not a hunt and being able to stipulate a size bracket takes that probability completely away.

I do believe there are legitimate ranch hunts available in New Zealand where the deer are managed behind a fence, but without breeding in paddocks. This is what I'm interested in doing. High fences are not offensive to me at all....they are a great management tool when used correctly. I have hunted high fenced properties many times here in Texas and have had some great hunts (some where I even went home empty-handed).

I genuinely hope you find a property like you state, and would love to think there was a chance that you may go home empty handed. Not out of spite, but to prove us wrong here in our impression of what we see happening.

So there's your answer.....

....BUT....

I would like to add, that I would also like to visit NZ to hunt Tahr and Chamois someday (without a helicopter).....so I'm almost positive I will make it to your wonderful country at some point.

If you do, be sure to look me up. I will even try and convince you to share a hunt with me for Tahr and Chamois in my manor.

I just get so tired of hearing all the people arguing and complaining about high fences, and how their method of hunting (public land, leased land, etc...) is the only "TRUE" method of hunting....and how anyone that doesn't do it their way is not a "REAL" hunter, or is somehow less of a man.

Its something you will have to get used to I'm afraid. Its not about manliness, or doing it our way, but much more about respect

I am a trophy hunter, I like to hunt and shoot trophy animals. To me, a 280" 12 pt. stag is not a trophy....so I'm not going to make a special trip to NZ to hunt one that size. I am not interested in SCI or any other record book, and I could not possible care less about any of that garbage.

And this becomes the point that will stick with most of us, because outside of a fence, where the genes of success are paramount, a trophy is indeed 300ds. Its a strange world where a 300ds stag is not available to every hunter in their lifetime, yet a 350 is available to any who wish it.

However, I would probably jump on an opportunity to hunt a free-range 280" 12 pt. stag IN ADDITION to a Tahr/Chamois hunt.....

I know that everyone doesn't agree with my stance on hunting and high fences....but I do not try to push my ideals onto others. That is why it irritates me to hear some put down people just for hunting behind a fence, or using a guide, or whatever.....while maintaining their "Holier than thou" attitude.

Thats just life my friend, terms like holier than thou are generally just used in a passive aggressive manor to try and cast dispersion on those who have the ability to disagree.
What I take from this thread, is that close on 3 generations of kiwis are almost unanimous in their disregard of this activity, Its not a kiwi activity, yet we are asked to accept it because it partially resemble something we do.

Well....I still maintain my position, and more than likely we will always disagree on this particular subject.....but I must say, this has definitely been the most civil thread on the subject I have ever seen. And for that, I thank everyone.

It has truly been a pleasure to debate with you gents....

It is interesting to note a couple of things here. From what I know of trophy animals sought on the face of the globe, it really is only Red stag and to some degree Fallow deer that have been some aggressively bred to produce super sized Stagasauruses, like some prehistoric mutant creature from Jurassic Park. No one has been breeding 1000 lb Lions or 80" Kudu, 10 tonne elephants. Just the Red Stag in New Zealand has been given the genetic "Treatment".

It is the genetic intervention that I believe has fuelled this primal urge in so many to fly down to New Zealand in search of Mutant Monster Bone. This genetic excellence has now obviously been sold around the world to other breeders, a bit like the kiwifruit, so it is possible to find such monsters elsewhere. However this MMB has led to an unchecked almost rampant lust for "inches", by many. The "I want to shoot a stag that measures 400 or more" mentality, at any cost, moral or financial. The "I want to shoot a once in a 10,000 lifetime stag at any cost" without any real introspection as to what the whole game is about. New Zealand deer breeders have made this "dream" a reality. (Well, as real as it can be)

The reason why we Kiwis find this whole farce unacceptable is because hunting in New Zealand is generally a solo affair in a very remote environment, and that means that NZ hunters spend many, many hours, days, weeks in their own company to "Be", in a very real way with themselves and the true wilds. There just isnt a lot of room for bullshit. Its about a lot of reality. How fit you are, how strong you are, how disciplined, how well you can shoot, how well you can traverse waterfalls, bluffs, how well you can navigate in the bush, the dark, the mountain mists, and so on. So for us to see some fat or ancient "hunter" with a fatter cheque book turn up demanding "inches", without having to break a sweat, makes most of us want to puke. Pure and simple. And why not? Many in New Zealand hold the "realness" of their hunting experience close to their hearts and to see it whored out evokes quite a powerful response. Many have the same response to drugged and canned lion hunts, and I think they have now been banned? For obvious reasons., Whats the difference, not much in my mind.

Many many years ago an acquaintance of mine guided a rich yank on a Sika stag, one of the toughest deer hunts around. The stag was in a 20 yard by 20 yard pen waiting to be shot. The client couldn't even be bothered getting out of the truck to shoot it and told the guide to kill it and then headskin it so the cape and rack could be sent back to the States for mounting. I know this just one example, but it is one of many I have been made aware of.

The original question posed was-

"Where is the best place to go for a quality Red Stag over 400" in New Zealand? I know Shane Quinn has great hunts, but his prices start at $15,000 USD for a 400" stag.

Surely there are some places that aren't quite so expensive....perhaps toward the end of the hunting season?"

Dollars and inches. That isnt what hunting is about. Trophy collection maybe. I think most here in their responses have been polite to the extreme, given the extent of what has happened to their beloved sport as a result of the "dollar".

Afterall, isn't a trophy stag hanging on the wall supposed to be a reminder of all the effort and skill put in over the years to find such a beast. What memories could one possibly have of flying down for a quick 3 day hunt to return home with an Antipodean piece of Jurassic Park MMB, shot on an open hillside?

Shit why not just buy cast antlers and have them mounted, honest and simple appreciation of one of mother natures inexplicable wonders, without the dishounour to all involved. The clients, the operators and most importantly the animal....

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:


Shit why not just buy cst antlers and have them mounted, honest and simple appreciation of one of mother natures inexplicable wonders, without the dishounour to all involved. The clients, the operators and most importantly the animal....

That is a very good point you make - why not just buy cast antlers?? I'll tell you why - because the vast majority of hunters that I meet that want to hunt red stags in New Zealand want to do just THAT... they have seen the marketing and want to do IT!! They generally dont understand what doing it entails however and that is when the scheisters pounce!!

I wont pick your post apart because most of it has been done here in this thread already... either you get it or you dont. I do not believe that estate hunting of red stags is a threat to true hunting in NZ but that is my opinion... If what one persons idea of a good time doesnt fit in with your idea, that is your problem, not theirs!!

I will say though that I think you are wrong about the marketing - those hunters I 'interview'... the marketing they respond to with the red stags is the (television) imagery of the roaring stag with the incredible New Zealand... that imagery works just as well with a 300 inch stag but even better with a 400 inch jobbie!!

Also - I think you will find there are plenty of animal populations around the world that get some genetic manipulation - its called game management!!!

quote:

Many many years ago an acquaintance of mine guided a rich yank on a Sika stag, one of the toughest deer hunts around. The stag was in a 20 yard by 20 yard pen waiting to be shot. The client couldn't even be bothered getting out of the truck to shoot it and told the guide to kill it and then headskin it so the cape and rack could be sent back to the States for mounting. I know this just one example, but it is one of many I have been made aware of.

Who knows HOW this 'client' was stitched up to buy a sika 'hunt' package, trophy fee included?? What do you expect him to do?? Get out of the truck and pretend to stalk the stag and thus pretend to ENJOY that he just got an arse-fucking from an unscrupulous outfitter and your guide aquaintance?? I bet those guys were laughing, thinking what a dumb fuck this hunter was??

quote:

I wont pick your post apart because most of it has been done here in this thread already... either you get it or you dont. I do not believe that estate hunting of red stags is a threat to true hunting in NZ but that is my opinion... If what one persons idea of a good time doesnt fit in with your idea, that is your problem, not theirs!!

Theres nothing to pick apart Matt, what was offered is an insight into the emotional experience that many NZ hunters have when in the bush on a real hunt in the wilds of Kiwiland.

I didnt mention any threat to NZ's free range hunting, why try and side track it again?

Its not my problem Matt. I can't fix all the wrongs on the planet. And if you dont think what happens on a typical caged hunt in N.Z is a bunch of pseudo ego gratifying bullshit, then I think you need to re-examine what hunting is about.

You have made it overtly obvious as to where your loyalties lie. But once one compromises even a little to the dollar it is interesting see to how far the branch will bend before it breaks...

And we each have a breaking point, and after that, it's time to re-establish ones point of reference, as it were.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Many many years ago an acquaintance of mine guided a rich yank on a Sika stag, one of the toughest deer hunts around. The stag was in a 20 yard by 20 yard pen waiting to be shot. The client couldn't even be bothered getting out of the truck to shoot it and told the guide to kill it and then headskin it so the cape and rack could be sent back to the States for mounting. I know this just one example, but it is one of many I have been made aware of.

Who knows HOW this 'client' was stitched up to buy a sika 'hunt' package, trophy fee included?? What do you expect him to do?? Get out of the truck and pretend to stalk the stag and thus pretend to ENJOY that he just got an arse-fucking from an unscrupulous outfitter and your guide aquaintance?? I bet those guys were laughing, thinking what a dumb fuck this hunter was??

Hmm, Matt very presumptuous of you make such a call. Here's what actually happened. The client was booked on a free range hunt on private land that also had a deer farm at the front part of the property. On the way to the hunting camp at the back, the client saw the breeding stag in the yard and said, "Hey, why can't I just shoot that stag over there in the yards? Go and ask the farmer what it will cost." The guys were a bit surprised by the question but did as requested and the stag was subsequently bought for $5,000.00. The rest has already been described. The guys felt pretty ashamed and sick afterwards about the whole affair. Many do after lowering standards in exchnge for a few pieces of silver.

However I, as well as you well know, there are many operators that will do almost anything for a bundle of cash, and somehow manage to rinse the taste of shit from their mouths with their spoils from the hunt. Or justify it by saying "ah well, it was going to die one day anyway."

Having said that, EVERY game park in New Zealand that guides a reasonable amount of hunters every year has to release fresh farm raised stags into their enclosure. Simply because when you take say 20 mature stags take out of the "herd" every hunting season, the ONLY way to replace them is with farm raised stags. It takes too many years to breed them from scratch. Do the maths. Even if the stags are shot at year 5, you are going to need an absolute bare minimum of couple of hundred stags in the Safari park to be able to find 20 shooters every year. And that requires way more good feed than what you will find in any NZ game ranch, that even remotely resembles a wild environment, rather than a top dressed dairy farm, (not to grow big bone, but to ensure they dont starve to death).

Here's a little tip for those that dont already know it. Have a look in the ears of your trophy stag after you have shot it to see if there is an old tag hole. If there is, the only question that needs answering is when was this stag released?

Last year, last month or yesterday?

And as Matt stated there are more than a thousand overseas hunters visiting our shores annually. So it is not difficult to gauge the size of the industry.

quote:

Also - I think you will find there are plenty of animal populations around the world that get some genetic manipulation - its called game management!!!

Don't kid yourself Matt, this is not game management. Its more akin to dogs bred for show.
These deer are of no benefit to the species.Hell they aren't even pure red deer.

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:

Hmm, Matt very presumptuous of you make such a call. Here's what actually happened. The client was booked on a free range hunt on private land that also had a deer farm at the front part of the property. On the way to the hunting camp at the back, the client saw the breeding stag in the yard and said, "Hey, why can't I just shoot that stag over there in the yards? Go and ask the farmer what it will cost." The guys were a bit surprised by the question but did as requested and the stag was subsequently bought for $5,000.00. The rest has already been described. The guys felt pretty ashamed and sick afterwards about the whole affair. Many do after lowering standards in exchnge for a few pieces of silver.

However I, as well as you well know, there are many operators that will do almost anything for a bundle of cash, and somehow manage to rinse the taste of shit from their mouths with their spoils from the hunt. Or justify it by saying "ah well, it was going to die one day anyway."

Well I was just offering a possibility - a reality of how it can pan out... you didnt give us the full story!!

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:



Having said that, EVERY game park in New Zealand that guides a reasonable amount of hunters every year has to release fresh farm raised stags into their enclosure. Simply because when you take say 20 mature stags take out of the "herd" every hunting season, the ONLY way to replace them is with farm raised stags. It takes too many years to breed them from scratch. Do the maths. Even if the stags are shot at year 5, you are going to need an absolute bare minimum of couple of hundred stags in the Safari park to be able to find 20 shooters every year. And that requires way more good feed than what you will find in any NZ game ranch, that even remotely resembles a wild environment, rather than a top dressed dairy farm, (not to grow big bone, but to ensure they dont starve to death).

Here's a little tip for those that dont already know it. Have a look in the ears of your trophy stag after you have shot it to see if there is an old tag hole. If there is, the only question that needs answering is when was this stag released?

Last year, last month or yesterday?

Yes that is the reality, a lot of it is put-and-take. Good tip about the ear...

A lot of places I know are trying their damndest to bred and grow as many stags as they can, up to a reasonable size (340?) as it saves them a lot of money not having to buy and transport farm bred stags and they cannot afford the losses when those stags are excess and do not survive the first winter. They do need to have a good size park and kill a lot of females and do some feeding too.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Also - I think you will find there are plenty of animal populations around the world that get some genetic manipulation - its called game management!!!

Don't kid yourself Matt, this is not game management. Its more akin to dogs bred for show.
These deer are of no benefit to the species.Hell they aren't even pure red deer.

Yes you are right - safari park red stags are not really game management as we know it - I was talking about other (wild) species. You probably dont get that in New Zealand (maybe with fallow deer??)...

quote:

Originally posted by soroka:

quote:

I wont pick your post apart because most of it has been done here in this thread already... either you get it or you dont. I do not believe that estate hunting of red stags is a threat to true hunting in NZ but that is my opinion... If what one persons idea of a good time doesnt fit in with your idea, that is your problem, not theirs!!

Theres nothing to pick apart Matt, what was offered is an insight into the emotional experience that many NZ hunters have when in the bush on a real hunt in the wilds of Kiwiland.

I didnt mention any threat to NZ's free range hunting, why try and side track it again?

Its not my problem Matt. I can't fix all the wrongs on the planet. And if you dont think what happens on a typical caged hunt in N.Z is a bunch of pseudo ego gratifying bullshit, then I think you need to re-examine what hunting is about.

You have made it overtly obvious as to where your loyalties lie. But once one compromises even a little to the dollar it is interesting see to how far the branch will bend before it breaks...

And we each have a breaking point, and after that, it's time to re-establish ones point of reference, as it were.

I was just saying that it, gaje park red stag, doesnt affect you (my opinion). Visiting O/S hunters have a different idea of what constitutes a good holiday experience to you. You seem to take it personally they they dont have an interest in spending quality time on their own in the wilderness on their week-long vacation??

Anyhow - like I say it has been well-done in this thread.

There are LOTS of things that I dont think are right with the industry - but I dont think their needs to be so much anxiety over this red stag stuff??

My loyalties - my loyalties lie in preserving hunting opportunities in the South Pacific!!

Been sitting on this thread for a long time. Its getting to the pointy end.

Marketing, dollars and loyalty.

The Kiwi hunters who have given their opinions here are being loyal to their heritage (and birthright).

The Guides are loyal to marketing and dollars. Simple really.

Soroka's example shows how easily anyone (both guides and client) can be corrupted. Really sad.

I should declare my interest in the Tourism industry, the game park operations are a great tourism product for NZ.

However they are a product and are as reflective of NZ Hunting as Disneyland or Nasa are of the USA's entertainment or technology industries respectively.

Respectfully

Foster Price.

quote:

Originally posted by Tentman:
Been sitting on this thread for a long time. Its getting to the pointy end.

Marketing, dollars and loyalty.

The Kiwi hunters who have given their opinions here are being loyal to their heritage (and birthright).

The Guides are loyal to marketing and dollars. Simple really.

Soroka's example shows how easily anyone (both guides and client) can be corrupted. Really sad.

I should declare my interest in the Tourism industry, the game park operations are a great tourism product for NZ.

However they are a product and are as reflective of NZ Hunting as Disneyland or Nasa are of the USA's entertainment or technology industries respectively.

Respectfully

Foster Price.

Some guides are loyal to both mate, not very many though!! I cant remember if I have mentioned this before but in my experience (not just with NZ) - a lot of these issues come about because the commercial operators are NOT keen hunters in the first place... a lot of the game park owners themselves and quite a lot of outfitters and guides wouldnt know what a real hunt is themselves - so how can they pass on the intimate experiences that all of us posting here have???? Impossible!!!

They dont even know what they dont know!!

And perhaps we should leave Matt with the last word right there.

quote:

A lot of places I know are trying their damndest to bred and grow as many stags as they can, up to a reasonable size (340?) as it saves them a lot of money not having to buy and transport farm bred stags and they cannot afford the losses when those stags are excess and do not survive the first winter. They do need to have a good size park and kill a lot of females and do some feeding too.

Really.