I know less and less people are going to Africa and Alaska every year for dangerous game.I know most of the big bore rifles are made on a limited basis too.You add up all the old big bore rifles and its alot already around.I use to have 6 416 rem mag rifles and two 458 win mags .I am down to just three 416s nopw.It ads up to some bargin rifles for the older ones.I am glad to see new ones being made but wonder how long they will be around.I think Trump will give hunting a big boost because his kids love to hunt!

Well, I see mostly older guys shooting big bores; the younger guys at the range seem content with their .223 autoloaders.

Some used to ask me about my .375H&H and .470 Capstick, but declined to try them out.

It might just be a cycleof boom and bust, like we had in the late '70s and '90s.

George

I believe the need for big bore guns will lessen as a result of the inconvenience of traveling with a gun. If I was scheduling a buffalo hunt, it would be with an outfitter that could provide a suitable firearm. I just isn't worth the grief to me to take my own gun. My last trip cost me $200 in extortion money because SAA police recorded a wrong number on my forms on entry and of course called it to my attention exit time. My exemption was a hand written scribbled piece of paper. No thanks!

Most of the problem is the sky rocketing prices of African hunting by folks and a government that don't understand business. Supply and demand is wild in Africa these days. The Obama administration created bad times and tight money. Isis and other terrorist groups sure havn't helped..

The wealthy will still go, but the average American that didn't buy a new car or new house and saved enough to go every other year or two has all but disappeared, so much the shame, these are the folks that made Africa work, Greed by Safari Companies and African government ruined this..If I were inclined to be a newbie booking agent today I would be damn sure I had a real job first and foremost, because the internet has changed that a lot. I get a lot of inquiries as to how to go about it, my reply is your just too late...It worked in my day, today Id get an education and hope for the best..

The glory days of Africa are gone and until they wake up and normalize pricing to fit the American budget it will not get better..In a matter of just a few years Tanzania went totally out of sight..I talked with African politicians about this, and it fell on deaf stupid ears in that they can live on $600 a month as easy as they can live on $5000 a month, its the tribal mindset...

Put all this together and you realize the big bores are no longer popular overall, those that sell, will probably be owned by those who read Peter Capstick, and then will seldom see the African continent, if so they will be used on So. African plainsgame...The rest see no need to take the punishment the big bores put out.

Will all this return to normal, I have no idea and at my age its not up to me to change it, but I sincerely hope the "good ole days of Africa" return, its a sad day if it doesn't. opertunity wasted, a way of life gone forever..bothers me a lot. Im all but retired these days, still send some old curmudgeons that have hunted with me for years to Africa, and that's about all I can handle..I don't get along with recoiling rifles anymore because of a roping injury to my right hand, so a .338 is about my limit and with a muzzle brake at that!

If Trump succeeds in reducing regulation, corporate taxes and income tax, you will see demand for DG hunts go up.

I doubt that re-regulation and tax exempts will effect Africa much, those folks are still going, they are the wealthy..

Its the average Joe that African greed has effected..Africa has shot itself in the foot by escalating prices out of sight on DG..

Perhaps PG will eventually become affordable in that there are near millions of PG fenced ranches throughout Africa, and herds are building and nobody to shoot them is the end result, supply and demand should bring prices down dramatically in time, I know they are feeling the effect of that now..All we can do is wait and see, but this has no effect on the sale of big bores in the big picture. Onle DG will do that, and to what degree? who knows?

I tend to think this is the age of the black rifle, stainless steel and plastic. The 223 and 308 reign among the new shooters and masses that city dwell or so it seems, I wouldn't swear to anything these days.

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
I know less and less people are going to Africa and Alaska every year for dangerous game.I know most of the big bore rifles are made on a limited basis too.You add up all the old big bore rifles and its alot already around.I use to have 6 416 rem mag rifles and two 458 win mags .I am down to just three 416s nopw.It ads up to some bargin rifles for the older ones.I am glad to see new ones being made but wonder how long they will be around.I think Trump will give hunting a big boost because his kids love to hunt!

I love rifles, but six .416s? I own three long range .338's (2 LMs and and Edge) and three 300 RUMs but I can't imagine owning six of any one caliber, and I shoot those guns all the time.

I bought a .416 for my first DG hunt; a Mod 70. It has killed all kinds of big stuff, but I never thought about owning more than one. Having multiple LR rifles means I can cycle through the barrels so I never have to wait on a rebarrel. But for DG, I much prefer that I am comfortable with one rifle.

Just curious...did you shoot those all the time?

Most big bore rifles never make it to Africa, and I'd say most are never intended to. I'd say over half of our big bore builds are for fun, or "I just gotta have one". Out of 18 rifle builds I have going now, 15 are .375 and larger, and 6 are .577 and larger.
One day, the Millenial tots will grow out of their black plastic toys and move up to real rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Bitterroot:
Most big bore rifles never make it to Africa, and I'd say most are never intended to. I'd say over half of our big bore builds are for fun, or "I just gotta have one". Out of 18 rifle builds I have going now, 15 are .375 and larger, and 6 are .577 and larger.
One day, the Millenial tots will grow out of their black plastic toys and move up to real rifles.

Some have done a fair bit of hunting and been rebuilt

Wayne - I am in Vegas for SCI so lets meet up.

Mike

See you there. Can't wait to get out of this snow.

Wayne it's still only January! I'm living in tropical Southern Colorado so we have nothing on the ground, but I do remember Montana winters. You guys have a great time at SCI, maybe next year for me.

I reckon the vast majority of big bores, say 375 and up, are not bought with very big game in mind.

In Australia when you see a new shipment of Hornady bullets arrive the number of 375 and 458 bulets is fucking unreal. If only 1% these bullets were used for buffalo in the Northern Territory then there would be no buffalo left.

Also, it is interesting how many of the 375s are the 220 grain flat point and 225 grain spire points. The number of 375 Winchester Big Bores and 376 Styers in Australia is about fuck all so 99.9% of those bullets are loaded in 375 H&H, 375 Ruger and 378 Wby.

Cost alone for everything once you go above .350 is prohibitive for the common shooter for the most part by the masses.... Rifles get expensive for the common guy, reloading cost are disproportionately high with big bullets, double rifles unless you got some serious unused cash laying around are out of reach for the common guy, on and on it can go... It's simple economics, how much are you willing to spend...and big dangerous game trips cost don't help much...$15'000 and up cause the average worker a little hesitation !

boom stick, Drumpf is busy "Making America Great Again," I don't think he can pull off "Make Africa Great Again" also.

I bought my 416 RM with visions of Africa dancing in my head. Now if I go I will use a gun there. Seems to complicated and cost prohibitive to bring a gun.

Some day I may go back to Alaska and get to hunt big bears with my son, but until then I enjoy shooting cast bullets at reduces recoil.

I like them more than anything.Once in a while I will look forward to going to the range with one and shooting 6 or 7 rounds offhand at 50-100yds-like I was going hunting.I then put it away until the next time-not before a few months.I shoot my lesser rifles in between only to prepare me for the real thing -the big bore!
It is especially nice to shoot a custom because you have taken part in all the steps of its making.Everything has got to be perfect in a DG big bore rifle as well so there is a sense of greater satisfaction if all goes well.

I bought my 416 to hunt deer and plink with. I figure If I can hunt deer with this rifle, then I should be good for anything and I'll never need another rifle for anything on the planet.

I'm 35 and I've been into larger calibers since in my early 20's. I can't get anyone to shoot my 416. I tell them it's just like shooting a shotgun, but everyone turns it down. Young, old, it doesn't matter. I always offer because I know no one else around here ever has the bigger calibers, so I always offer to let them shoot it as it will probably be the only time they get to shoot a bigger caliber, unless they just buy one.

Only my buddies have been willing to try it. people would rather just watch me shoot.

Maybe someday, I'll get to hunt some bigger stuff and dangerous stuff.

The more economic freedom the more wealth creation that leads to more disposable income on frivolous $100,000 safari. More guns bought, more guns made. More hunts, more money to protect endangered species and curb poaching.

quote:

Originally posted by slim buttes:
boom stick, Drumpf is busy "Making America Great Again," I don't think he can pull off "Make Africa Great Again" also.

I bought my 416 RM with visions of Africa dancing in my head. Now if I go I will use a gun there. Seems to complicated and cost prohibitive to bring a gun.

Some day I may go back to Alaska and get to hunt big bears with my son, but until then I enjoy shooting cast bullets at reduces recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:
I reckon the vast majority of big bores, say 375 and up, are not bought with very big game in mind.

In Australia when you see a new shipment of Hornady bullets arrive the number of 375 and 458 bulets is fucking unreal. If only 1% these bullets were used for buffalo in the Northern Territory then there would be no buffalo left.

Also, it is interesting how many of the 375s are the 220 grain flat point and 225 grain spire points. The number of 375 Winchester Big Bores and 376 Styers in Australia is about fuck all so 99.9% of those bullets are loaded in 375 H&H, 375 Ruger and 378 Wby.

The .375 H&H with a 260g a Nosler Accubond or 270g PP is spectacular sambar round, and the .458 Win has long been advocated by Ken Pearce in "walking them up", and then you have the Big Game Rifle Club crowd firing more at paper in a month than stalkers do per year.

I can't see big bore component demand deminishing in Australia in any great hurry, and many who take there rifles to Africa have practiced with them on lesser game for a decade beforehand- it's part of the fun!

I don't buy this crap about buying a big bore for any other reason than hunting Africa or dreaming of it.

They, the really big bores, have always been pretty much a niche' market. Seems as with about everything they rise and fall in popularity. I think Cal is right in that right now they may be in a more or less "bust" cycle. During the late 50's and early 60's good used doubles were around for cheap. 5 years ago they definitely weren't. The word "cheap" obviously being relative.

Locally I know 3 guys who shoot big bores and they don't just hunt with them. One has been to Africa 3 or 4 times, one is going this year for his first trip and the other is me who will never go. I've been invited several times but honestly, for me, it is hugely difficult if not impossible to justify the expense. I could afford it, once and, it would be something of drain on my resources but wouldn't bankrupt or force any changes in our life style. I love the big bore rifles, especially the doubles and single shots as well as simply working with the rifles and cartridges for no more reason than to learn but, evidently to hunt Africa simply isn't that important to me or I would have been there by now.

quote:

Originally posted by sharps4590:
They, the really big bores, have always been pretty much a niche' market. Seems as with about everything they rise and fall in popularity. I think Cal is right in that right now they may be in a more or less "bust" cycle. During the late 50's and early 60's good used doubles were around for cheap. 5 years ago they definitely weren't. The word "cheap" obviously being relative.

Locally I know 3 guys who shoot big bores and they don't just hunt with them. One has been to Africa 3 or 4 times, one is going this year for his first trip and the other is me who will never go. I've been invited several times but honestly, for me, it is hugely difficult if not impossible to justify the expense. I could afford it, once and, it would be something of drain on my resources but wouldn't bankrupt or force any changes in our life style. I love the big bore rifles, especially the doubles and single shots as well as simply working with the rifles and cartridges for no more reason than to learn but, evidently to hunt Africa simply isn't that important to me or I would have been there by now.

Yeah sure.When you were young and saw a picture of a naked woman I am sure you thought about biology and human anatomy.

Sharps4590,
You owe it to yourself to go to Africa at least once if that's possible. but if its not in your bucket list, never mind..to me lifes too short to miss it, been more times than I can count, most were extended stays, and I still dream of Africa, just getting too old to endure that 14 hours in a plane....

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Sharps4590,
You owe it to yourself to go to Africa at least once if that's possible. but if its not in your bucket list, never mind..to me lifes too short to miss it, been more times than I can count, most were extended stays, and I still dream of Africa, just getting too old to endure that 14 hours in a plane....

Two points:
Going to Africa once will only create the irresistible desire to return!

Col. Townsend Whelan once wrote that "only accurate rifles are interesting". To me, only big rifles are interesting! Anybody can learn to shoot a .223 accurately (that is the primary reason the M16 replaced the M14). It takes determination and practice to shoot a stopping rifle well!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Sharps4590,
You owe it to yourself to go to Africa at least once if that's possible. but if its not in your bucket list, never mind..to me lifes too short to miss it, been more times than I can count, most were extended stays, and I still dream of Africa, just getting too old to endure that 14 hours in a plane....

Try Emirates business class.

Most of this discussion centers on rifles for Africa and excludes the American Big Bores like .45-70, .45-90, etc. and there seems to be plenty of action with .45-70 lever actions.

My 1886 .45-90 has taken many native and exotic game in America and ele, leopard, and some buff in Africa.
After taking a buff in Africa with my .1895 .405, I personally do not need and will not buy anything more powerful in the future.

I will let the DG PH buy and shoot any thing more powerful as a stopping rifle (and be pleased they did).

BTW, I just selected my M70 .308 for my next hog hunt and will not take my .405, even though it has been fun to knock over hogs with it. When my .405 double comes back from the gunsmith, I will use it just for the fun of it.

The last couple years, I have noticed better and better prices on used doubles. I primarily attributed this to Barack Obama's USF&W shutting down ivory import.

I don't own a double, so periodically I'm looking around.

I spoke with George Caswell (Champlin Firearms, widely considered one of the best guys in the US to buy a used double from) this week at SCI and he said that demand is clearly starting to pick up again. He credits optimism over a pro-business administration, and the feeling that ivory imports will start again. During the campaign, DJT promised to put a sportsman in charge of USF&W (what a novel idea.)

I do agree with others here that overall, safari costs have gotten prohibitive. However, if you shop around, there are buffalo hunts in great areas for under $10k. Non-exportable elephant can be had for $15k. Both can be cheaper if you can hunt late season and on somewhat short notice. By contrast, today on a popular hunt broker's website, I see multiple mule deer hunts for over $10k. The DG safari has SO MUCH more adventure for the money, not even a contest between the two.

I doubt I'll ever buy that double... I can use the same money to book a safari for elephant, or 2 buffalo, using my plain ol' CZ 458 Lott!!

Well if they are fading out would someone please send me their no longer needed rifle? Something like say an original .404 Jeffery would work just fine. I promise to give it a good home.

I spoke to Mike Payne st SCI about doubles. He carries a k-gun and I think he was the fastest Zim ph with a double rifle shooting and reloading it.

He said if he was starting out as a young ph he would get his hands on a blaser.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I spoke to Mike Payne st SCI about doubles. He carries a k-gun and I think he was the fastest Zim ph with a double rifle shooting and reloading it.

He said if he was starting out as a young ph he would get his hands on a blaser.

Mike

It is evident that his shooting big bore has effected his mental process!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I spoke to Mike Payne st SCI about doubles. He carries a k-gun and I think he was the fastest Zim ph with a double rifle shooting and reloading it.

He said if he was starting out as a young ph he would get his hands on a blaser.

Mike

It is evident that his shooting big bore has effected his mental process!

I will put Mike Paynes hunting experience up against most recreational hunters on AR.

If one is practical and wants an excellent safe hunting tool - get a R8.

I will be buying mine soon.

Mike

nope -- but some of the serious shooters are now understanding accumulated stress

I asked Mike Payne why he liked the R8 so much and he said he was hunting in Zambia for leechwe and dropped the R8 (was a camp rifle) in the swamp from machan. It fell barrel first into the muck and then flopped over int he muck.

They took the rifle back to camp. Took it apart, washed it down with a hose and put it back together and will some oil was ready to go.

That is a perfect tool.

Mike

I started with a 9.3x62..then went to a 375 Ruger, picked up a CZ550 46 Rig, why? Well it was a good price and I hope to get back to Africa one day and next time I go I am bringing a rifle

I have been there 3 times over the years for work but never had a chance to hunt, came close in Tanzania when my SAQ guy offered to take be up to Arusha for buffalo but I could never get a weekend off. We did get to Selous for a couple days and it was truly amazing and I cannot wait to get back.

But in the mean time I like making big noise and bigger holes ...I also carry my M29 on occasion concealed, stoked with Hornady 300gr thumpers.

Not saying smaller calibers don't have a place, in fact I just built a 6.8spc upper that has turned out to be a MOA rifle with Hornady 120gr SST and will be a great Hog rifle if I can ever get some free time to hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I don't buy this crap about buying a big bore for any other reason than hunting Africa or dreaming of it.

You might be interested to know a former member called Mitch got Saeed to start the Big Bore forum for blokes who liked to play with the big stuff but had no intention of shooting very big game.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:
Also, it is interesting how many of the 375s are the 220 grain flat point and 225 grain spire points.

Hornady discontinued both of those bullets a couple of years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I don't buy this crap about buying a big bore for any other reason than hunting Africa or dreaming of it.

You might be interested to know a former member called Mitch got Saeed to start the Big Bore forum for blokes who liked to play with the big stuff but had no intention of shooting very big game.

I mentioned in another thread that when I bought my 460 Weatherby in Southgate, CA the salesman told me nine out of ten 460's never go to Africa. I am not a hunter and never will.

Speaking strictly for myself, the reason I bought a 460 was because Weatherby doesn't make a 560. Power and energy is interesting.

Big bores will pick up again regardless of the hunting prices and situation in Africa.
I disagree with Shootaway in that probably only 5-10% of big bore (.450 and up) owners will ever go to Africa for DG.
The younger crowd will tire of their plinking rifles - the .223 being the 22rf of today - and eventually want something bigger, either a LR rifle or a big game rifle.
We are seeing the same thing in the air rifle community - going bigger and bigger.
Long range BPCR is also gaining popularity.
I also think that bigger bore/lower power rifles will become more popular as modern loading brings the BPE rifles into safe and easy use for all sorts of NA game.

I put all those in the category "dream of going to Africa".After all it is what it is.

Most of the double rifle dealers at SCI were telling folks double rifles are coming back,according to one of my long time hunters and double rifle collector..He also said "if that is so then why did that Jefferys 500 N.E. sell for $13,000, that's a $22,000 gun" I agreed with him.

I don't know, but if I wanted to get back into doubles I think I would buy one now and hope for the best, but I sure wouldn't buy more than one or buy one for an investment.

In years past Ive owned many doubles, bought them and sold them when they doubled in value and then bought another..made lots of money on doubles..Bailed out early and have been keeping track of sales and the market since..Not ready to risk anything as yet..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Most of the double rifle dealers at SCI were telling folks double rifles are coming back,according to one of my long time hunters and double rifle collector..He also said "if that is so then why did that Jefferys 500 N.E. sell for $13,000, that's a $22,000 gun" I agreed with him.

I don't know, but if I wanted to get back into doubles I think I would buy one now and hope for the best, but I sure wouldn't buy more than one or buy one for an investment.

In years past Ive owned many doubles, bought them and sold them when they doubled in value and then bought another..made lots of money on doubles..Bailed out early and have been keeping track of sales and the market since..Not ready to risk anything as yet..

Probably on target! However I have several double rifles, and hunt almost exclusively with doubles for everything in the USA, and Canada, with everything from a 8X57 JR to a 58 cal Muzzle loading double rifle. I hope the double rifle doesn't go on the cheap in manufacture because if it does they will go away. Mine are to be given to may kids when I hit the final hunting ground.

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