quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson

I tend to think this is the age of the black rifle, stainless steel and plastic. The 223 and 308 reign among the new shooters and masses that city dwell or so it seems, I wouldn't swear to anything these days.

Ray; Stainless steel and plastic Big Bores are the wave of the present and future. And more accurate out of the box smaller carts like the 6.5 Creedmoor.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson

I tend to think this is the age of the black rifle, stainless steel and plastic. The 223 and 308 reign among the new shooters and masses that city dwell or so it seems, I wouldn't swear to anything these days.

Ray; Stainless steel and plastic Big Bores are the wave of the present and future. And more accurate out of the box smaller carts like the 6.5 Creedmoor.

Cold trigger finger, how many Alaskan hunters would go into the alders with a wounded brown bear using a 6.5 creedmore? I can see some dumb ass first timers doing something that stupid, but not someone who has even seen a big brown bear.

We have a group of five guys who hunt Alaska every year, and even when hunting caribou we all have CRF bolt action 375 H&H magnums to cover what ever comes our way. For many years the most used rifle used by Alaskans has been a 338 Win Mag in heavy bear country. In the last few years I see more and more 375H&H rifles there!
......................................................................

I've seen many of the folks in the outback country still packing 30-30s, 30-40s, 25-35s, 303 British and Savage and 300 Savage rifles, all manor of small bores, the same with many of the Indians and Eskimo that like the .Hornet and 223....Phil Shomaker tells of a store in the far North that has stacks of Factory WW 25-35s factory loaded with solids, The Eskimos like them for shooting Seals,Now how rare is that..I have not seen that load since about 1945 to 50,and Im sure they wouldn't hesitate to use them on Bear.

The outback, shut-in folks, ranchers, sheep herders, Eskimos, Indians, trappers I've known, weather in Alaska, Australia, the USA, or anywhere in the world tend to reject recoil, and see no need for big bores..

Thinking back most every PH Ive known hunts with a light rifle when not guiding clients, most profess to killing their first elephant, Buffalo and Lion with a 30-06, almost to the man..

No argument with anyone just expressing what I have seen and discussed over a campfire or two.That said, we will never be "without" big bores, and they will never set the world on fire in sales and yes they will slowly fade to some degree unless Africa gets its act together and lowers pricing, and I doubt that they are smart enough to do that. That effect is really showing up in double rifles.


I don't see the .338 and .375 as "big bores" or ever fading much as they established themselves as All around calibers, world wide with shooters, big game hunters, guides and PHs. The .338 Win after a very slow start has made its bones and has become increasingly poplar at a tremendous rate it seems, especially with elk hunters I see more ever year among both non residents and locals..

I'm lucky, I got to go on safari with my grandfather back when Africa was a much more civilized place. Rhodesia and South Africa were very different places.

Now, I wouldn't put a penny into the government's hands in South Africa and Zimbabwe....white genocide, the governments of both places hate whites. No reason to support either of these racist hellholes. Namibia sounds interesting nowadays.

Fewer shooters nowadays...all small caliber spray & pray. I have taken friends out with a battery of rifles...starting with 338 Winmag and Lapua, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 458 Winmag and 505 Gibbs...I also show them how to hold the rifle and to lean into it and never back....Turns out they like the big boomers. Gave one friend a Ruger 338 Winmag and another Mark X 458 Winmag...now they're fans.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I asked Mike Payne why he liked the R8 so much and he said he was hunting in Zambia for leechwe and dropped the R8 (was a camp rifle) in the swamp from machan. It fell barrel first into the muck and then flopped over int he muck.

They took the rifle back to camp. Took it apart, washed it down with a hose and put it back together and will some oil was ready to go.

That is a perfect tool.

Mike

You can do the same with a Mauser..

You'd have to rezero a Mauser.

Just an observation, nothing more, but once Elephant hunting is shut down, other than for particular individuals and their personal tastes, ,the .458/.404 and .375 H&H are more than adequate for any Cape Buffalo on this planet, and I have never hunted one nor ever will.

The larger bores are only going to hang on with the older hunters.

Cape Buffalo will be the only member of the Big Five that will be available for hunting 20 years or less from now.

I know, I really do not know anything about African Hunting, but I do know the effects of Public Opinion!

Elephants will only remain legal game for 20 years at most.

I'm one of the younger members here. I have dreamed of hunting Africa my entire life. I have not been able too make it happen yet. Financially just can't afford it. I like hunting white tails would love too hunt a big mule. Africa is still the best bang for you're buck in my opinion. I see white tail and mules hunts for $8500-$12000 that would almost get a buffalo hunt. I love shooting my big bores I carry a 375-416 or my 458Lott 99% of the time. I hope something will change and I will be able too use my rifles for there intended purposes.

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny reb:
I'm one of the younger members here. I have dreamed of hunting Africa my entire life. I have not been able too make it happen yet. Financially just can't afford it. I like hunting white tails would love too hunt a big mule. Africa is still the best bang for you're buck in my opinion. I see white tail and mules hunts for $8500-$12000 that would almost get a buffalo hunt. I love shooting my big bores I carry a 375-416 or my 458Lott 99% of the time. I hope something will change and I will be able too use my rifles for there intended purposes.

I have seen a buff hunt offer in Zimbabwe for about 10000 trophy fee included-in a good area.That should be great for you.I might take that up in the future if it is offered again.

We must mass reproduce the Jurassic Park dinos so that we will have a need for the .45 and bigger bores.

quote:

Originally posted by 376 steyr:
We must mass reproduce the Jurassic Park dinos so that we will have a need for the .45 and bigger bores.

Got my 500 Jeffery, ready and able lol!

Just spent a pleasant afternoon collecting buffalo manure with my wife for our vegetable garden. I also went for a pleasant little stroll and sneaked-up to a couple of small herds on a swampy creek to look them over. The Old Man Nganabbarru eventually caught my wind and moved into the clear where I was able to pop a 600 grain Woodleigh PPSN into his shoulder. He carried it well for sixty metres before crashing. That's my second bull with the .500 Jeffery. Shot distance was an easy sixty-five paces.

Although I won't knock the .30/30, I got frightened following-up a bull with mine that a friend had wounded with a .308. I brained him at thirty metres or so in the long grass - the first shot ricocheted off his head, and he just shook it. I must've worked the lever smartly, and the second shot sorted him out. As soon as I got back to town I bought a .416 Rigby. That was thirteen years ago when I was twenty-four. Since then I've owned a heap of big bore rifles and had the time of my life with them. Got me and / or the guys out of a few tense situations.

BEN
do you still use the 416...at present im casting a batch of 10,000 400 gn 416 proj...love the 416 ive got the 416 Ruger

Daniel

Hi Daniel,

Unfortunately I had to sell it to go towards an African trip. It was hard to part with, but the sacrifice was worth it.

Great cartridge!

Cheers,

Ben

I used my big bore rifles in Alaska as tent guns and going into the thickets .I still have three 416 rem mag rifles and a 405 win .I probably won't ever go to Africa .I wanted to but I got to into Alaska and moved there 12 years .I use my 338 win mag all the time .My Alaska favorite rifle was my 338-378 weatherby .I still shoot my 416 for fun !

I think the public at large has been losing its interest large bore DGR magnums for some time. The "African" magnum, "Safari" magnum, and "Alaska" magnum type lines from the major rifle makers are nearly gone. The 1960s-1970s was a time when wildcatters had big cartridge magnum-itis and various .375, .411, .416, .458, and larger magnum wildcats were appearing. But we don't see those sorts of efforts now.

However, over the past couple of decades we have seen a significant increase of interest in non-magnum big bores. Cartridges like the .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf, and .450 Bushmaster are among the most popular non-standard, non-5.56mm, chamberings in the AR-15, now euphemistically referred to as the Modern Sporting Rifle (MSR). Lever action fans have given a renaissance to the wildcats .450 Alaska and .50 Alaskan, and Marlin has added the .450 Marlin to its catalog of arms. Sales of the old school .444 Marlin keep plodding along while lever action rifles in .45-70 are among the best sellers from Henry and Marlin. Browning has added the .450 Marlin to its BLR line. And an entire cottage industry has emerged to enhance and improve the big bore Marlin 1895 rifles, including offering to convert them to calibers like .440 GNR Magnum, .475 GNR, .470 Turnbull, and the Wild West .457 magnum. Even manufacturers of bolt action rifles seem to be catching the wave. Ruger is offering .450 Bushmaster bolt rifles.

So, while I think we are seeing fewer rifles produced in traditional big bore African DGR calibers I also think we are seeing a huge increase in production of shorter big bore calibers suitable for North American and non-African dangerous game.

This years 10,3x68 RWS marks the first .413 bullet big bore caliber since the 416 Ruger. I think the last ones before that were the 400 Holland belted, 465 Holland belted, 500/416 NE Krieghoff and the 450 Rigby before that.

It has been a while since we have seen one.

But I have met quite a few people who consider a 300 Magnum to be a big bore.

I always had a .375 and a 40 caliber bolt rifle usually a .404 or 416..I also always had one double rifle, be it a 450-400, .470 or 450-3 1/4", like them all, and loved hunting with a double..My favorite has always been the 450-400-3", never felt the others had more to offer except on paper..

quote:

Originally posted by gohip2000:
I bought my 416 to hunt deer and plink with. I figure If I can hunt deer with this rifle, then I should be good for anything and I'll never need another rifle for anything on the planet.

I'm 35 and I've been into larger calibers since in my early 20's. I can't get anyone to shoot my 416. I tell them it's just like shooting a shotgun, but everyone turns it down. Young, old, it doesn't matter. I always offer because I know no one else around here ever has the bigger calibers, so I always offer to let them shoot it as it will probably be the only time they get to shoot a bigger caliber, unless they just buy one.

Only my buddies have been willing to try it. people would rather just watch me shoot.

Maybe someday, I'll get to hunt some bigger stuff and dangerous stuff.

I'm surprised to hear people won't take a free shot out of anything big, just for the experience, even if prolonged usage might make us punch drunk.

One of my sons brought two of his girl friends to the range and they proceeded to try all of five rifles, including the .450/.400. I realise it kicks less than my 338WM but the girls were impressed.

I have two big bores, and I hope Africa will be afordable also in the future.

oh=024572596fb4b641f6345edce302f6ce&oe=59A03122[/IMG]
Mauser Oberndorf M98 404 Jeffery

One overlooked reasoning is that short of AR and some other Internet blogs, big bore rifles have never been all that popular with the "MASSES" Big Bores and double rifles as well, is a specialized market, always has been and always will be..

Hunting has become a rich man's sport...and African hunting is a VERY rich man's sport with Very Very rich man's guns.

Young guys can't afford it. They can afford a Glock, an AR, and a pile of wolf ammo to go blast on the weekends...and play video games in between.

Sad, but the future of shooting is black rifles and ranges...not african game fields.

It's just not realistic for a young man these days.

Depends on the young man! As a kid to a young man, I dreamed of Africa, got chance to go early on, and made the best of it, been there many, many times, its my business created by a desire..Get a good job and work on it, its still possible. My first real safari hunt cost me $20,000 in trophy fees, got home and had to pay the bank back, started booking hunts, it was tight for several years but it worked..Like I said back yourself up with a real job. Today it will be harder to do, It will be no walk in the park, but it can be done. I was lucky I got into it in the glory days by accident more or less and jumped in head first some years later.

I think that the 416 Ruger is probably the most practical big bore of the century. It will probably remain marginally available behind the much more successful 375 Ruger, an excellent new medium bore. It is hard to choose between a 338 WinMag and a 375Ruger for an all-around NA cartridge.

Myself, I'm still waiting to ferry my 500AccRel over the pond. The 500 is fun to shoot and Midway has announced that some brass is due in stock next month.

The two companies to thank for current interest in big bores are Ruger and CZ, who both produce true DG rifles at prices that every hunter can afford.

If I had a good double I,d just keep it an not worry about its value increase..however I sold all mine, as the need no longer was there..

I only used the doubles for DG, and mostly buffalo..Almost the same with big bore bolt guns, but I shot PG some with my big bores to keep from traveling with two rifles...

Today Im happy to shoot small to med bores like the 7x57, 250, 06, and such. Even have a 338,.375, and a 9.3x62 as my large guns.

I would buy a double or large bore bolt rifle if the price was right for resale at a profit and fun to shoot a little during the interim..but not to keep and shoot.

Creeping up on a buffalo

Laying the crosshairs just ... there.

On that muscle pad over the shoulder to heart ...

The sight picture is stable and staying within intended impact area, no branches in bullet path "tunnel".

Squeeze.

Sight picture is momentarily disturbed.

Dust is kicking up in the target area, bushes are shaking, and some buffalo are moving off at a lumbering run.

At this point a person can be reassured, cycling a solid as the next round and knowing that
1. the rifle/load combination is accurate
2. the bullet is a quality product that will hold together and penetrate reliably
3. the caliber is the biggest accurate-rifle that was practically available for that hunt, that day: .510" .458" .416" .375" .338" [only in extreme circumstances: .308" .284"/.277"]

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson

I tend to think this is the age of the black rifle, stainless steel and plastic. The 223 and 308 reign among the new shooters and masses that city dwell or so it seems, I wouldn't swear to anything these days.

Ray; Stainless steel and plastic Big Bores are the wave of the present and future. And more accurate out of the box smaller carts like the 6.5 Creedmoor.

Cold trigger finger, how many Alaskan hunters would go into the alders with a wounded brown bear using a 6.5 creedmore? I can see some dumb ass first timers doing something that stupid, but not someone who has even seen a big brown bear.

We have a group of five guys who hunt Alaska every year, and even when hunting caribou we all have CRF bolt action 375 H&H magnums to cover what ever comes our way. For many years the most used rifle used by Alaskans has been a 338 Win Mag in heavy bear country. In the last few years I see more and more 375H&H rifles there!
......................................................................

Wires must have got crossed.

Stainless steel and plastic big bores are the wave of the future. Imho. For anything a large caliber rifle would be used for. . At least up here.

The comment about the 6.5 Creedmoor was concerning accurate smaller caliber rifles instead of 30 cals.
I doubt I would have any problem killing a bear with my 6.5 Creedmoor.
Beins the 256 Mannlicher and 6.5 ×55 , and a bunch of other 6.5 carts have cleanly taken every big game animal extant . There just is not any reason for the 30 caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:
Hunting has become a rich man's sport...and African hunting is a VERY rich man's sport with Very Very rich man's guns.

Young guys can't afford it. They can afford a Glock, an AR, and a pile of wolf ammo to go blast on the weekends...and play video games in between.

Sad, but the future of shooting is black rifles and ranges...not african game fields.

It's just not realistic for a young man these days.

Sport trophy hunting has ALWAYS been a rich mans sport ! But so what ? A young guy doesn't have to have a desire to get his name in a trophy record book . And he can still get hooked on hunting with big bore rifles. I've killed more than 50 deer with rifles from 375 H+H/Ruger on up to 500 A-Sq. And taken caribou with 9.3×64 and 375 Whelan A.I. . And not necessarily down loaded.
I encourage everyone to get a big rifle. Lots of guys go as far as the 375 and stop there. But some like the idea of a truly large caliber rifle and go for it.
I've politiced several guys into 375s and 416s . I've got phone messages that said just.
The 416 paid for itself today.
The 375 paid for itself today.

1 shot , non cns stops on brown and grizzly bears. At from 3-5 rifle lengths from the muzzle .
My Spruce King has done similarly as did a couple 416s of mine. Having the option of buying a tough , all weather big bore rifle is one of the greatest things of this gun age !

Oh they are fading and fading fast ! As the demand drops less and less guns will be built and on a day there will come a time when ammo makers quit making ammo and components.... economics 101 !

The horizon looks bleak !

Already the big name commercial makers are scaling down ! I am of the opinion that when the baby boomers finally pass on there will be very few gunmakers and gun shops left.

The attrition of gun shops especially the mom and pop stores who were run by enthusiasts is stunning ! And with them often go the source for the rare !

I guess I will teach my sons to reload. We have a CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery, a LH Model 70 stainless/synthetic Classic in 416 Rem and a Rem XCR II in 375 H&H with brass and dies for all

I'm busier than ever with big bores in . 50 cal, .577, and .600. The medium bores .404, .416, .458 are cookin' too. They will always be popular, just like big trucks, big homes, and big boobs.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Big bores will pick up again regardless of the hunting prices and situation in Africa.
.........

I hope Huvius is right!

Are big bore rifles fading out?

I sure hope not! ...

Since I've never had enough money, in a big pile, all at one time, I doubt I'll ever get to go to Africa to hunt DG. That is unless I can find a PH that will take rifles in trade for a hunt. In the mean time, I just love collecting them, one-by-one, over the last 45 years.

Some great rifles there buckstix! Quite a few safaris worth I would say!

I just picked up a twin to your C&H 404J. Very nice.

Cheers Chris

That's Amazing !! WOW !!
You even have a 475 A&M. Wow !

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
That's Amazing !! WOW !!
You even have a 475 A&M. Wow !

Yes, and it has an interesting story to tell.