I saw some pics of the ones with the tiny hole. Maybe that is for handgun calibers and not rifle calibers. If you look here you will see the tiny hole in the pistol bullets
http://www.gunblast.com/BeltMtn_PunchBullet.htm

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What's the latest update on this?

Has Barnes still put a halt on production?
Is the NRA involved in helping Barnes with this?
Any threat of this spreading to other manufacturers?

Yes Barnes isn't making banded solids.NRA is very aware but won't touch the AP issue period. All BATFE has to due is to issue a ruling and contact other manufacturers and it's all over. Who knows what's happening behind the scenes at BATFE. Even they don't know!-Rob

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e

Interesting, thanks for the update

The fact they have already brainwashed people into accepting an AP bullet as being 'bad' or indefensible is the scariest thing and what will make it easy for them to squeeze more ground.

If AP is bad now they just prove more bullets are able to penetrate similarly and they win their arguments on the basis most gunowners have fucked themselves already saying AP is bad.

Don't ask me I am just an Australian who watched this shit unfold the same way..

The correct stance should be oveturning this AP bullshit itself. Who cares if people own a dedicated hardcored bullet?

Last time I checked it did not make people more likely or able to to committ crimes and if it does well then gunowners have just lost every argument against anti's for all gun types... .

I'm with you
If they use the AP thing then all we will be left with is shotguns and 22 rim fires.
AP should not be illegal.

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If they use the AP thing then all we will be left with is shotguns and 22 rim fires.

How do you figure that?

AP is more about velocity than bullet construction.
If the threshold for AP is just a "Bullet proof" vest then any 30-06 with cup and core bullets is AP. I remember when Malvo was doing his DC sniping. The media was calling his rifle a "High power rifle". It was a fucking 223. All you need is to combine "high power" and AP and most guns would be banned.

Armor Piercing is defined as:

The term "armor piercing ammunition" means - (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. (C) The term "armor piercing ammunition" does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

That is all that the ATF is acting on. They cannot invent meanings and terms that are not defined above. We all know that the whole issue is utter nonsense and that it must be fought tooth and nail but, concentration on the precise issue is important. Anything else will just give them ideas.

In the definition above, no mention is made of cup and core bullets as we know them or of forged or turned copper bullets. The only issues at at hand are bullets made from the named materials and what constitutes a handgun.

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That is all that the ATF is acting on. They cannot invent meanings and terms that are not defined above.

They can and often do!

It takes big bucks to get Congress involved in shutting them down that's why we need the NRA involved. That's what we pay dues to them to do.


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The NRA won't touch this
I wonder if GOA will.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The NRA won't touch this
I wonder if GOA will.

GOA?
the God of Abraham?

gun owners of america

The thing is, everything's, just about, been put into a hand gun.

And I doubt Barnes had anything, aside from a sporting purpose, in mind for their bullets. Basing it off a "court finding" would at least be a valid process - the "opinion of the AG" just means whatever some bureaucrat thinks of it.

The best defense is a strong offense. Concentrate on getting our Congress critters to focus on the BATF Fast and Furious colossal cluster fuck and run the entire pack out of their jobs. Focus on that like a laser and they won't have anyone left to even say AP. Your best weapon against career burro rats is to take their power away. As Rahman Emanuel so aptly said" Never let a good crisis go to waste".-Rob

What does "the Attorney General" know about projectiles, other than projecting his own head into his ass?

That lying basturd Eric Holder is "the Attorney General" who is himself ultimately responsible for "Fast and Furious."
Republicans are calling for his resignation, but why the hell not prosecution?
He really needs the boot applied to his ass, where he keeps his head inserted.

The term "armor piercing ammunition" means - (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. (C) The term "armor piercing ammunition" does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

By this definition anything smaller than a 22 is not AP. It says "Larger" than a 22 cal. That wording exempts the 22 if my English comprehension is correct
So a 17-22 FN 5.7x28 is not AP
The whole thing is BS not based in reality or the constitution.

Venting here is fine but everyone needs tocontact their congress creatures and vent to them. Once a day, every day! Get all your friends involved too. Even go see them and talk to them. Write a newspaper opinion. Get the message out and remind them that we vote.-Rob

Just a question. Please don't kill me but is it really fair to blame this on President Obama? To the best of my knowledge, he hasn't done anything that affects our gun rights. Again, just asking.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Just a question. Please don't kill me but is it really fair to blame this on President Obama? To the best of my knowledge, he hasn't done anything that effects our gun rights. Again, just asking.

On the surface, you are right Dave. But it is the people he has placed into office that ARE affecting us. For instance, Eric Holder and his expansion of Fast and Furious to include letting the guns walk across the border. Also, who made the aborted decision to eliminate shooting on Federally owned public lands?

I don't remember the exact context but I remember hearing about his response to one of the more active gun control proponents, maybe Sarah Brady, that he "realizes a frontal assault on gun rights is a looser. But it's being worked UNDER THE RADAR".

When I first heard of this thing with Barnes being for real, as well as the public land shooting restriction, that "UNDER THE RADAR" phrase is the first thing that hit me. If they can take away the ammo or places to shoot, they have effectively taken away the guns.

Also, if he gets re-elected, I sincerely believe the "UNDER THE RADAR" will be abandoned in favor of an all out assault on our rights as at that point, he will have nothing to loose for making the most radical attacks on the constitution.

IMO, the Obama administration is gun rights unfriendly, as well as business unfriendly.

Obama is a BIG spending and government-in-control guy (i.e., European socialism). Capitalism and a population with guns is a threat to that central control. Obama wants your power - that is, your money and your guns.

Remember, if the people have money and are armed, they have REAL power. Then their government will serve the people and their needs. A government with all the power soon becomes tyrannical.

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The whole thing is BS not based in reality

Of course it is. Laws are usually made by people who do not know the subject. That is why the laws are stupid, make no sense and why those who know the subject, can find all sorts of loopholes.

Take the latest Norms and Standards for Ethical Hunting in SA: It allows me to handload pure lead cast bullets of 300gr for my 45ACP 1911 pistol and hunt elephant with it. It is abominably stupid to even think of doing so, but, it is allowed. The same set of Norms and Standards makes it illegal to do the same thing with a 375H&H, loaded with GSC 270gr FN bullets. The result is that the law is ignored.

Dave- I'm really getting worried about you now? You can't possibly be that naive. Your pulling our leg right? A president who does nothing about a Attorney General who breaks the law isn't doing his job is he?This debacle is brought to you by the same criminals who thought up "fast and Furious". Obama hasn't done a thing about them. Stop drinking that koolaid!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
IMO, the Obama administration is gun rights unfriendly, as well as business unfriendly.

Obama is a BIG spending and government-in-control guy (i.e., European socialism). Capitalism and a population with guns is a threat to that central control. Obama wants your power - that is, your money and your guns.

Remember, if the people have money and are armed, they have REAL power. Then their government will serve the people and their needs. A government with all the power soon becomes tyrannical.

At the moment, we have here in Germany many, many great problems with gun owning. Many new "ideas" are populare at the moment. The left parties will forbit the shooting sports. But it isn´t possible with one step and so many ideas are comming. Gun tax, semiauto rifle ban, Big bore ban for target sports, no storage at home, and many more. Sometime, they will have success with this politic. Gun owners, especial target shooters are the new evil. Olympic shooting sport must be "demilitarized". I don´t know what they mean.
Just as, many politcians have the opinion, that in GB, shooting sport is prohibited.
We have not a lobby like the NRA. And so, my forcast is, that the German big bore shooting sport is dead within 2 or 3 years. The next hammer will be this gun tax. 300.-€ for every gun and every year will bring many problems for target shooters like me. I have 19 guns. I have a budget of 2500.- -3000.-€ every year for my hobby.
Additional 5700.-€ every year will be my ruin.

Yes, germany and europe is on the best way back to the sozialism. Somebody will call it now, "EUdSSR"

Martin

PS. With "big bore" I mean every gun over .22lr.

Being from Canada, I might be prone to parnoia, when it comes to guns and watching the government take your rights away. For your own good. To protect you from yourself..
I,ve seen this circus before, never thought it would happen over here, and I was wrong.
Actions follow objectives. The current administration have definetly proven themselves absolutely untrustworthy in any sense.
Take a look at gun laws north of the border to see where this is going. Canada is supposed to be getting rid of the long gun registry, which would be a good start, but I will believe that when I see it, and not a moment before.
History has a funny way of repeating itself, when a government starts disarming the people,its usually not for the benefit of the people being disarmed..

This is why I decided long ago to round out the calibers I shoot with the ability to make my own cast bullet.

I know they are not all copper and/or not AP capable, but I wanted the ability to make my own if Obama dried up the bullet supply.

I had been casting since 1965 so it was really a matter or flushing out my available bullet moulds and stocking up on gas checks.

The only way to stop this executive attempt to restrict our rights is for the Congress to start defunding Executive branch agencies that overreach their authority. They need to start with the EPA and then 5 minutes later defund the ATF.

Barstooler

Anybody know where we are on this?

I think they like ambiguity

For all of you that are having trouble getting solids, Cutting Edge Bullets is still marketing solids in most of the popular calibers. Nice looking and appear to be well constructed. I have a nice supply in and as of yet haven't had the opportunity to test them, but michael458 has and recommends them.