To whom it may concern,

I asked Barnes Bullets about when the flat nose variety of their .375 300 banded solids would be available, and Josh responded as follows:

"The BATFE (ATF) has deemed our Banded Solids as armor piercing bullets. We have appealed their decision and are awaiting a final answer but until further notice we are on a manufacturing hold with all brass bullets.

Thanks, Josh"

Josh Springer | Consumer Service
Barnes Bullets, LLC

38 North Frontage Road, PO Box 620, Mona, UT 84645. Phone 435-856-1111 | Fax 435-856-1040 | joshs@barnesbullets.com

Freedom Group Family of Companies: Remington | Marlin | Bushmaster Firearms | DPMS / Panther Arms | H&R | Barnes Bullets | Advanced Armament Corp | Mountain Khakis | EOTAC | Dakota Arms | Parker Gun


This is very serious infringement on our rights and it will affect not just Barnes bullets but other manufacturers as well.

The OBAMA threat to our hobby is VERY REAL. GET THE VOTE OUT FOR THE NEXT ELECTION - YOUR HOBBY MAY BE IN THE BALANCE.

Regards, AIU

you know this is only relevent to PISTOL ammo, right? and AP pistol ammo has been illegal to put in a pistol for years.

Josh said, "...until further notice we are on a manufacturing hold with all brass bullets." I was asking for .375 300 gr. flat nose banded solids, and they are not avaiable from Barnes until further notice. I shoot a .375 Ackley Improved rifle and can't get what I want from Barnes. When will this ruling affect CEB and other bullet makers?

If this turns out to be true the non cons, Raptors and copper versions of the BBW 13 solid would be the only way around this. These rulings should be challenged if proven true.

I think this would refer to the Barnes Buster Solids that use a Tungsten core.
That would make some sence if the ATF was cracking down on AP bullets, but its not.
Who knows WTF the ATF is thinking. I'm thinking they would look real good working for Walmart.

Cheers, John

I hate to add anything to this that I don't know to be 100% but hey this is the internet...

A buddy of mine called Barnes to place a large order of 458 banded solids and was told a similar story...

He somehow concluded that the bullets were being modified (i.e. turned down to fit pistol calibers and then shortened to make weight)...

.458 to .452, .416 to .40, .375 to .357 etc etc...

Again not sure how he concluded the bullets were being modified or if it's even remotely possible but it is in the context of this thread...

It's extreme nanny ism
Will they outlaw the metals brass and steel soon?
This is over reaching.
If you had a lathe you could make your own bullets. Why would you pay 10x bar stock prices for bullets first???.
Should lathes be outlawed?
The feds are outlawing lead now brass?
This is not about AP but the 2A
We have the 2A to prevent those who would obstruct the 2A
The 2A is more important than AP
I dont give a &@$# about AP
Crime is is crime does
Crime is not brass
Stupid anti gun people just need an excuse to subvert the 2A

quote:

you know this is only relevent to PISTOL ammo, right? and AP pistol ammo has been illegal to put in a pistol for years.

They are holding off on rifle stuff too for now. Whether or not the is ONLY supposed to affect pistol ammo it IS affecting rifle bullets.

Also, if you read the law, you will see that the person who determines whether a bullet is for sporting use and therefore not banned is the Attorney General of the USA. Quick...who is the Attorney GEneral? yeah...that's gonna be a problem.



(17)(A) The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge
cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in
any firearm.
(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means -
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a
handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence
of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of
tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber
designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a
weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the
projectile.

(C) The term "armor piercing ammunition" does not include shotgun
shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations
for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target
shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is
primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other
projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is
intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device.
(18) The term "Attorney General" means the Attorney General of
the United States (!1)

I certainly can see them asking Barnes to stop making any tungsten core bullets, but solid brass bullets in rifle Calibers are not Armour piercing bullets period. THe only .375 pistol is the JDJ for use in
A SS contender. Hardly what the homeboys are toting to the 7-11 these days. A solid brass rifle bullet won't penetrate a 3/4 inch of hard armor plate any better than a standard cup and core bullet will.Wanna see a STD vest be defeated, try a 30-06 Garand with wwII FMJ. Zipps right through even with a trauma plate. Any argument about turning down existing bullets is rediculous as anyone who has enough smarts to use a lathe would start with barstock not a Barnes banded solid. LOL on that one! I'm going to call ATF tomorrow and see if I can find someone who can address this. ATF has some very helpful folks and they have been very open with me before.-Rob

Between California leading a trend to ban lead bullets and the Feds pushing to outlaw monometal bronze or brass bullets and bullets with steel or tungsten components the outlook is not favorable.

Anybody that can make a statement in regards to a proposed trial, that " failure is not an option", CAN NOT be trusted in any regard. If failure is not an option, in a trial of law, then it is not, by definition, a trial.
Unfortunately, that is the kind of critter that we,as gun owners, get to deal with. Divide and conquer. A simple, extremely effective technique that has never lost it,s effectiveness.

Hmmmmm, maybe this is why Midway doesn't seem to have any Woodleigh Hydros in stock? I don't think it would apply to the Barnes Busters. They are simply conventional bullets with a thick copper jacket and a heavy lead core. Who knows, maybe the Buster will be Barnes new solid?

On the other hand, this may simply be Barnes excuse for killing off the FN solid. It hasn't seemed to affect any other manufacturer. Anybody know where I can get some depleted uranium .458s

quote:

Any argument about turning down existing bullets is rediculous as anyone who has enough smarts to use a lathe would start with barstock not a Barnes banded solid. LOL on that one!

My thoughts exactly and exactly why I didn’t post about this a few weeks ago when my friend had issues when he tried to placed his order with Barnes…

I’m not an alarmist or bull shitter myself and didn’t want to post something I was unsure of just to stir everyone up…

My friend is a straight up guy and doesn’t BS either but he is a little bit flighty and I’m not sure if or how he got all the facts for what he tried to tell me…

Though when I saw this thread it alarmed me that someone else had a similar issue with their purchase of banded solids…

The bottom line is that if some crooked fucker wants’ to do something that is illegal and they have the resources to do it they will regardless…

The fact that a reputable company like Barnes Bullets has to suffer by holding production of a product to due bureaucratic bull shit is sickening…

Did Barnes say that this applies to the round nose solids as well?

P.S. I just got off the phone with Barnes. The ATF has stopped them from making any solids, RN or FN, in .458 caliber or smaller. The Busters are not included. You can still buy the RN and FN solids from Midway and Graf & Sons. It's not illegal for us to buy what remains in stock. However, Barnes can't make any new ones right now. If you look at the definition above, I think this prohibition could be extended to Woodleigh and Hornady copper clad steel solids, the Woodleigh Hydros which are also copper alloy, as well the brass CEBs. I think the North Fork solids and cup point solids are solid copper. They haven't gone after Nosler solids yet.

Based on what I've found out from a pretty reliable source and read between the lines, it seems like brass solids in anything that can be shot out of a AR-15 Pistol is going to be a problem for us. Brass .223's, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .308 anything, .458 Socom etc.If some yahoo can seat a solid brass.458 500 gr bullet in a Socom its AP as far as BATFE is concerned. RN, FN doesn't matter. If it fits in a widely available pistol we are technically screwed. At least for now. All of the above Can easily be obtained in widely available Ar-15 pistols, with short barrels. Not aware of any.338's, .375's except in the contender/encore pistols though. Thus BATFE thinks its well within its rulings on no solid brass AP rounds for pistols. Interesting they recently ruled SS 109 .223 with steel penetrators are not AP and they are worse than any Brass solids.
I would not get all excited and hysterical about cup and core solids, copper solids etc, or over .510 solids( no major supplier of pistols chambered so far) as the current legal definition of AP does not apply( not pistol rounds, just rifle rounds). They also need to rule on predominately rifle caliber solid bullets of .338 and up and I would think the bullet manufacturers and Hunters could sway them if a reasonable argument is presented. The damn Big Bore Contender pistols are going to make this difficult though. With that said, they are Single shots and what ATF is really worried about is Semi auto's. This undoubtably all started with "Elite Ammunition" selling 5.7X28 turned brass bullets( they just pirated the Barnes banded solid Design) ostensibly as Armored vest Penetrators to get around the ban on FN AP rounds. FN 5.7's and Ar-15' short barreled uppers in 5.7X28 with 30-50rd capacity are readily available as are shorty .223's to the Homeboys and you can bet they have figured it out. Elite also made 6.5 and 6.8 turned brass bullets using the Barnes design. Elite's argument following confiscation by local agents of their .223, 6.5 and 6.8 bullets was if Barnes can do it why can't we? Naturally BATFE then had some words with Barnes and probably it occured to them to question other brass solids that could be used in Pistols.( my supposition). BTW. Nothing has stirred up BATFE like 5.7 X28's ( FT. Hood and years of bad press about cop killer bullets) in any semi auto anything. They flat hate that round because it was specifically developed for AP. Thanks ELite, nice job!-Rob

Thanks for the clarrification Rob...

What a cluster F...

quote:

Interesting they recently ruled SS 109 .223 with steel penetrators are not AP and they are worse than any Brass solids.

Ask yourselves...whom are we considering here? The damn fool BATFE, the people who brought you Waco and Project Fast and Furious. That's who. You're looking for logic with this outfit? A reasonable approach, perhaps?

This is just another sign of the times. Consider the overall perspective of various government programs directed at gun owners. This is just another one and should surprise no one.

The SS109 ruling just smacks of the ammo manufacturers applying pressure to BATFE and congress so that they can be sold to the general public now that the Iraq and Afganistan wars are winding down. you check the prices on 5.56 lately? Down, Down, Down. Money talks and certain congresmen/ women can be induced to leverage the BATFE.Actually with FAST and Furious they are pretty vulnerable right now and NRA should definitely support Big Bore hunters using environmentally "friendly" brass bullets for humane hunting purposes. With enough money you'd be surprised what can be accomplished in DC. Lets quit bitchin and get influencing! Thats The way things work! BTW that SS109 is potent stuff, I'm loading up and taken advantage of this decision.-Rob

I don't see why AP is an issue constitutionally. We are meant to be armed not to hunt but to prevent tyranny. It's a motive thing not an AP thing. If I wanted to use brass buets in hunting there should be no issue. If someone used them or planned to use them in a crime then you have a crime. Pre crime brass bullet is stupid. Bad guys will always get illegal things but the law can't enforce the laws do they punnish those who commit no crime to look like they are in control. They are not in control so look good by passing stupid rulings. Almost any bullet is AP driven fast enough. AP is not a get out of jail card to subvert the rights and freedoms of the people guaranteed in the Constitution. This is the same as "Hate speech" laws. Unconstitutional! The founders want the tyrants to be in fear. They won't try to change the constitution because it would be obvious but just legislate and apply fear to the manufacturers so we have a virtual constitution change. Makes me sick. These types need to be voted out of office and the gun rights groups need to fight these garbage rulings.

Boomie- I don't disagree with you philisophicaly but that drums been beat already. We need to deal with this using the basic principals of Greed and Influence. NRA should be really on top of this and I'm sure they are. Send them some money and give em a call. I intend to! I really see how this could be actually turned to our advantage given BATFE's recent string of ever more stupid decisions. As the great Rahm Emanuel said" Never let a good crisis go to waste". This is how you get things changed! -Rob

quote:

Bad guys will always get illegal things but the law can't enforce the laws do they punnish those who commit no crime to look like they are in control.

Amen...

This is very logical but governmental agencies don't operate on logic...

Like Rob said Greed and Influence...

Best thing we can do is back organizations that will defend our rights like the NRA and vote accordingly...

I have no experience with the ATF but my profession puts me in constant correpondence with the IRS and if your opinion on how some governmental agencies operate is not jaded now I could tell you some stories that certainly would...

But hey still glad to live in the USA at least we can fight for our rights...

The plot thickens. I just talked to NRA-ILA and they are aware of this but can't get any documentation from BATFE ( getting smarter daily).
Can those of you who have emails from Barnes cut and paste them and PM them to me? Anyone know of any other brass solid bullet manufacturers who have been contacted also pse PM me with any emails you may have. NRA says Barnes hasn't provided them with any documentation. They are very aware of the Elite Ammunition situation though.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
The plot thickens. I just talked to NRA-ILA and they are aware of this but can't get any documentation from BATFE ( getting smarter daily).
Can those of you who have emails from Barnes cut and paste them and PM them to me? Anyone know of any other brass solid bullet manufacturers who have been contacted also pse PM me with any emails you may have. NRA says Barnes hasn't provided them with any documentation. They are very aware of the Elite Ammunition situation though.-Rob

Rob,

Thanks for working this issue.

IBT

I was told today in a phone conversation that Barnes was ordered stop producing 458 and down banded solids. They are apealing the ruling

NRA-ILA- basically said, "show me proof". They are correct that BATFE has issued no rulings to this effect.They said That Barnes has not contacted them, which I find very strange, and all there is are "certain " emails" and phone calls. If I or anyone else can provide proof positive, they are very willing to get involved. I'm going to call Barnes today and see if I can get anything ft them.I don't doubt that BATFE is up to no good or that they are covering their tracks but we need solid proof. -Rob

quote:

Can those of you who have emails from Barnes cut and paste them and PM them to me?

PM sent...

Rob,
call barnes, hit option 2, and get the data.

Barnes THINKS the NRA is informed - and if you search barnes atf, solids, or 6.8spc declared pistol round, you'll get data

Barnes, or more exactly, Barnes legal council may NOT want the NRA involved at this point. If they are negotiating with the government boys and all is going well, having the NRA involved may not be a good thing.

Jeffe- To be clear, I know the story on Brass .223.I have a copy now of that technical document from BATFE declaring ELITES .223 turned solids as AP. No hard ruling on 6.5 and 6.8 calibers as pistol rounds but I wont be at all surprised as I posted before. The issue is .375 and up, and BATFE going after all manufacturers not just Barnes making turned solids to be used in anything that could be construed as a Pistol round even though intended primarily for a rifle. I don't think we should let them declare all turned solids in any caliber AP just because someone could use them in a pistol. Thats the equivalent of death by a thousand cuts!
Thanks folks who sent me PM's and I'll forward this to NRA-ILA suitably redacted, with no names or email addresses. Barnes may indeed not want NRA involved, but I think we do. A company with vested interests may cave in setting precedents ,we as the hunting community may have to suffer for. The NRA has way more clout in DC and with BATFE than Barnes does, at least to my way of thinking. I'm just trying to help, don't really have a dog in this fight other than my interest in turned solids for hunting and target shooting ( in Rifles)-Rob

Who owns Barnes? Do they have large gov't. contracts? Their vested interests may not be those of solid bullet shooters. Just asking.

Remember, it's not Barnes anymore. It's Freedom Group/ Cerebus. Deep Govt. ties.

Wow they are REALLY reaching here. If I owned some sort of .470 I'd be stocking up now while I can, seeing as the 480 Ruger is a pistol and uses .474 bullets. Can't be long before the ATF discovers that and starts pushing the "xxx & under" diameter bigger and bigger. Guess that means .411 bullets are out too. How stupid.

It's a losing battle as far as PR is concerned but this is so over reaching almost all bullets will be illegal soon. There are so few solid bullet makers it will be an easy victory for the antis to make happen unless fought hard and fast. AP should be legal and protected not that I care about AP it's just almost any bullet is AP at the right velocity. We will only be left with varnmit bullets.

God Forbid they find out about Ken's 600NE Contender or the 600NE revolver video floating around Youtube!!

Geezus...Here we go again.
Here come the headlines:
NRA SUPPORTS COP-KILLER BULLETS..!!!!!!

Just in time to get this is on the current DEMOCRAT FUND-RAISING CYCLE for the "Fund-Raiser-In-Chief"

I found this on another forum.
Found it relevant.


brass bullets


Thread necromancy I know, but bear with me....

I found this thread after doing a Google search and I thought I would fill you all in about brass bullets and their legality for use in various calibers. My name is Matt and I have written a 340+ page book on pistol-caliber armor piercing ammunition, and I am a collector and member of the International Ammunition Association.

It looks like the concern in this thread is about the use of .50 caliber brass bullets in pistol loads, or even in rifle loads. I can tell you first off that it is perfectly legal for any person to use any type of solid brass bullet in any rifle caliber in any state in the country. Only CA and CT have rifle AP laws, and these are directly squarely at the .50BMG caliber only.

There are only a few types of these .500S&W compatible brass bullets made, and they are manufactured by Barnes (banded solids), Belt Mountain (Punch Bullets), Saturn Machining (Thor's Hammer) and Lehigh. The federal law only applies to projectiles which could be used in a handgun, but it clearly notes that it is only in regard to the commercial manufacturing of, or commercial importation of such bullets - NOT their use by consumers. So if Barnes or whomever makes solid brass bullets and markets them for rifles, then it is fine. It is actually up to the BATFE as to whether or not a bullet should be considered to be "usable in a pistol" (They maintain a list in their "federal firearms regulation reference guide" - which hasn't been updated since 2005). Indeed, the BATFE recently issued a statement declaring that any such bullet made of brass in the .223 caliber is subject to the federal law, and this had to do with their use in the 5.7x28 as loaded by Elite Ammunition (google it to read all about). Consequently you can't find any Barnes Banded Solids in .224 as of about a month ago because Barnes voluntarily stopped producing them since they didn't want to deal with potential legal fallout. The reason they had previously "gotten around the law" was because they only ever marketed all their banded solids as rifle bullets, and the 5.7x28 and .500 S&W were never really a relevant concern.

The BATFE has not in any way ever shown any interest or issued any statement about .50 caliber brass bullets, and so these are fine to purchase, load, own and whatever. It is actually 100% legal to purchase such bullets as the brass spitzer or brass hollow point bullets like what are loaded in the .50 Beowulf examples, pull them, and reload them in .500S&W as far as the feds are concerned. I wouldn't go bragging about it, but it is legal for civilians to do this in every state except: CA, TX, IL, FL, NJ, KY, RI, and Wash D.C.. Those states have actual state laws geared towards AP pistol ammo POSSESSION. So if you possess .500S&W cartridges with brass bullets in those states, then you might be in trouble. If not in those states, then loading any bullets that are currently legally manufactured by any licensed company is legal to do. It is important to remember that only manufacturing, importation, and use in a felony by a felon are what is federally regulated - not possession. Just a few states to be concerned with.

The "Punch" bullets as made by Belt Mountain get around the whole issue (supposedly) by just having some lead in the base of the solid brass bullet and by drilling a tiny hole from the flat-nose tip straight through to the lead base. This makes them not a solid monolithic, and not FMJ - thus skirting the law. They even make these bullets in .44mag and now .357mag (check the Grizzly cartridge website) which are much more popular pistol calibers. And they have no problem.

Lehigh is apparently somewhat concerned with the legality potential since on his site he qualifies the offering of .50 hollow point brass bullets for the .500S&W only for the "Encore rifle", as mentioned on his product page here: http://lehighbullets.com/products.asp?pg=3 And he also does not offer the brass spitzer-tip .50 bullets on his site, he only sells them direct to Alexander Arms for their Beowulf loads (I assume?)

Of course all of these bullets are intended for hunting, or else use strictly in a rifle. The .500S&W would be a stupid choice for a criminal with it's wild recoil, heavy weight, low concealability, high price, and low 5rd capacity. Meanwhile there are endless retail opportunities for many (and I mean MANY) perfectly legal pistol-caliber bullets in much more common calibers which are more than capable of defeating Kevlar vests. (obvious things like 7.62x25 surp, and lots of others including current modern bullets that I wont divulge). This isn't to say that nobody thinks the .500S&W is AP capable - just look at this ludacris piece of nonsense from the Violence Policy Center which is riddled with omission and various relativity errors: http://www.vpc.org/graphics/S&W500%20final.pdf I actually have it on good authority that all the typical hollow point and lead .500S&W bullets, although not capable of defeating Kevlar in most instances, would definitely punch a "sock of material clear through to your internal organs upon impact" - so it sort of still kills you anyway.

If anybody has any questions or disagrees with any statement I made then please ask, I can point to all the laws and offer photos, and examples of why the BATFE, Fed, and various states do what they do.

There may be some misunderstanding about brass, copper alloy and copper. Note that the only bullets involved in this back and forth are brass and other copper alloy bullets. Bullets made from pure copper are not affected and manufacturing continues undisturbed.

I'm with Gerard, in the end I found pure copper bullets were the best performers. It was simply the difference in cost between brass and copper that made brass bullets attractive. Solid copper .223s anyone? Where's my 5.7x28? -Rob

Can you still buy factory loaded solids in the effected calibers?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by boom stick:
I found this on another forum.
Found it relevant

"The "Punch" bullets as made by Belt Mountain get around the whole issue (supposedly) by just having some lead in the base of the solid brass bullet and by drilling a tiny hole from the flat-nose tip straight through to the lead base. This makes them not a solid monolithic, and not FMJ - thus skirting the law. They even make these bullets in .44mag and now .357mag (check the Grizzly cartridge website) which are much more popular pistol calibers. And they have no problem."

I believe this information is not entirely correct. I have some .458 400 grain punch bullets and they do not have a hole drilled in them. They have a heavy solid tip but contain more than just "some lead n the base". They are more like a heavy brass jacket with a pure lead core. Because of the lead core, they are somewhat shorter than a mono-metal bullets and don't take up so much room in the case of your 45/70 or 450 Marlin. I sent some down to Michael and he tested them. They are excellent bullets. Here is what they look like:

http://www.gunblast.com/images...Bullets/MVC-001F.jpg