Jeffe

I thought I was close thinking about our past conversations. I sent the first B&M rifle to be built in October of 2005! I was just into early 2006 before I started shooting them.

Yeah, I had the full length .500 on the books for a long time, but did not do it until last year. Started shooting it in August, busting stocks and one delay after another, but it is on track now, but after a long time!

I thought we were close time wise. Now look, we have the very finest big bore cartridges and rifles that can be had! From one spectrum to the other between the AR Series and the B&M Series all bases are covered!

Excellent I say! Hat's off and have a drink on me, we must do that someday!

Thanks
Michael

Michael,
I am tipping some mead i cast about 1.5 years ago, and aged for a year in a maker's mark barrel!

I'll bottle it up end of the month, i reckon!
jeffe

I am going ahead and put the 500 MDM rifle up with the others. Winchester M70 500 MDM 21 inch barrel. Capable of 550 gr bullets at 2230 fps--510 gr bullets at 2300 fps--470 gr bullets at 2420 fps--426 gr bullets at 2500 fps.

2.8 inch Ultra case.

AWSOME!
I think i recognize that long barrel 458wm winchester safari Express

Michael,why did you decide to go with really short barrels?I find that a shorter barrel is easier and therefore more accurate to shoot offhand.

Bear

Thanks! No you don't recognize that long 458! That is one I still have, it has many rounds shot thru it, yours was nearly new! Not to mention the little strain gage just in front of the receiver!

Shootaway

The entire purpose of these rifles is to get the overall length down for handling qualities! We have all heard and read about how efficient short and fat is right? I never bought that crap for a minute in the 30 and less calibers, but it does seem to have some bearing as the bore diameter goes up, you can get the velocity needed with less barrel. I have to have 24 inches of barrel in 458 Winchester to equal 18-20 inches of barrel in the 458 B&M! These cases are near equal in case capacity, so go figure!

Short is handy, light is easy to carry all day, short and light is also fast on target, I consider these mighty fine dangerous game rifles. I have been working with them since 2006 and have not been disappointed.

Michael

Michael, another option for the 50 Super Short looks like the AR-10 platform. With true headspacing on the mouth, it would be a slam-dunk for an experienced loader. I might not want to market that to the masses but right now there is a dearth of .510 rounds for the ARs. 50 beowulf and 50 AE use .500 bullets.

Jeff, I can't believe its been a year and a half since you put that up. Where did the time go? Tell us about it when the tasting begins. Better yet, save me a sip!

Tigger

Already being built as we do this thread. The gun is a DPMS and we are waiting on some parts to come in now. It will not be the 50 B&M Super Short however. It will be the original prototype cartridge that is a full 2 inch cartridge. I have a bolt gun in this and ballistically it does exceed 50 Alaskan in power--only this will be a semi! It will be a hoot, eh! The 2" .500 is capable of 500s at 2000. Of course the meat and potatoes for the semi auto will be the barnes bullets 325s and 375s and the 385 Remington. This will be a rather serious semi cartridge. Following behind this will be a 458 version. So these are already in the works now!

These should make damn serious hog guns if one finds himself in a field of 20 or so! Imagine being surrounded by pigs, whip out the 50 and go to work! Big Fun I say!

Jeffe can you ship that stuff you been cooking? I can think of a trade maybe?

Heh!

Michael

The 458WM is generally considered marginal to inadequate for dangerous game in Africa. Making it shorter while maintaning the same capacity is not going to help ballistics any.

That said, I have some concerns about this lineup of semi-short magnums.

1. Not getting cross, but this 3/8ths of an inch shorter bolt throw is pure garbage.

2. What lab has done the pressure work for you? and what are the pressures?

Just curious, because physics teaches 10th graders that there is no free lunch. Less case interior volume and greater velocity = greater pressure. Bigger case head = greater bolt thrust.

Inquiring minds want to know...

Rich
Buff Killer

Harry -
I am planning on bottling on memorial day

Rich, the winmag is a straight case, that apparently even flinchy can't blowup. The BM (and the AR) have a shoulder that forms a venturi.. and if you think a venturi doesn't do anything, ask yourself why rocket cone technology is protected by international treaty. Physics teaches 10th graders that unfocused energy does less WORK than focused energy, yeah?

shoulder/neck makes a HUGE difference, which is why the 458 ackley way out runs the 458lott

increased bolt thrust ... dude, don't GO there.. its .015 diameter (measured) larger,,, do the bolt thrust calc, PI*r^2*PSI
at 65,000psi, the 458 winmag is 14448.62
at 65,000psi, the 458 BM is 15274.88
at 55,000psi, the gibbs case is 17418.07

which raises more questions than it answer, doesn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
The 458WM is generally considered marginal to inadequate for dangerous game in Africa.

Not exactly -- the poorly stored ammo in africa, that visibly showed bullet displacement, and failed to "make book" are certainly considered poor

a .458 500gr bullet at 2150 is ALWAY adequate, and fresh ammo, or reloads, makes this, or better.

Let's be clear, 1800 or less FPS+500gr bullet is crap in a .458 for dangerous game... 2150, proven by use for a century, does the job, every time. Even St Finn thought well of it

Big Fun indeed!

Jeff, I'll bring the steaks!

i got 20 cases on order, and corks, to get there... i'll get geoff to come over, too, to help us, if you feel up to it..

Hey Rich

You bring up some very good and interesting points to ponder, thank you! This is what it is all about, and I will address from my point of view and perspective concerning the rifles/cartridges and my experiences thereof over the last few years with them.

First the 458 Winchester. In 1956 I could not agree more with the cartridge being inadequate because of the powders available at the time. It should have (at that time) been a 458 Lott, of that there is no doubt about it. The bullets available in 1956 were also inadequate by todays standards. With these two factors alone it is a wonder the 458 Winchester survived.

But that was 53 YEARS AGO!!!!!!!! My God there have been vast improvements in powder and bullets and primers since 1956. While we are not shooting lasers beams common to the public yet, we have made extreme strides in propellents, projectiles and priming mixtures in 53 years!

Today it is no issue at all to get 500 gr projectiles to 2150 fps in the 458 Winchester to what is commonly thought of as the STANDARD for the heavies of big game, elephant, buffalo, hippo. This has, and will probably be the STANDARD for a very long time, as it has served so well in the past, currently, and for sure in the future. In most instances this must be accomplished by the handloader for 458 Winchester however. I hear of some factory loads accomplishing this but have not personally tested said ammo. But none the less it is easy to accomplish with todays powders. In fact I use a dose of RL 15 to get a 500 to as much as 2170 fps in one of my 24 inch 458 Winchesters. I know of no one myself that has any experience in such matters that would say this is "marginal" or "inadequate".

Personally I believe that the 458 Winchester comes into it's own with 450 gr bullets. Two that come to my mind and ones I use in 458 Winchester and my very own 458 B&M are the 450 Barnes Solid FN and the 450 Swift A Frame! Again with modern powders these bullets can be loaded to 2250 fps. With the improved penetration of the flat nose profile of the Barnes and the excellent quality of the Swift A Frame these bullets really make a 458 Winchester--or 458 B&M really shine. The Barnes will give you all the penetration needed for elephant, second shots on buffalo, and hippo. The 450 Swift is excellent for those first shots on buffalo. "Inadequate" "Marginal"? I don't believe so.

Now back in 1956 using highly compressed ball powders, lousy bullets, and poor loading technics where some factory ammo was doing 1800 fps or so, then absolutely I would agree 100% with "marginal to inadequate" results! But again, those are results from 53 years ago and can hardly be said to be true today.

To those that infer that they would consider the 458 Winchester "marginal to inadequate" I would state back that they were speaking from "ignorance". Now all, please do not take offense to that, as we are all ignorant on many subjects, god knows of all the things I am totally ignorant about, I can't even count that far. So don't take the statement in a derogatory or disrespectful regard.

To study this further, let's define commonly thought of "Dangerous Game". Let's also take it to two different categories, THICK SKINNED DANGEROUS GAME and THIN SKINNED DANGEROUS GAME. My definition--Thick Skinned Dangerous Game to me would be Elephant-Cape Buffalo (all bovine in this category)--Hippo-and rhino. Thin Skinned Dangerous Game--Lion and various bears. Yes of course there are many more that could be included in this, but in general terms this is what we have that comes to mind. Now that this is "loosely" defined let's see how our 458 Winchester and 458 B&M stacks up against these "deadly and dangerous" critters.

It has been established now that we can indeed get proper weight bullets to proper velocities considered by all standards to be the STANDARD in which is judged to be proper "dangerous game" standards. Whew, anyone understand that? Now I think we must put great thought into proper bullets for said or given task at hand! First let's start with "Thick Skinned Dangerous Game". Can the 458 Winchester or 458 B&M fire a bullet that will handle these situations, if so what? Again this is in my opinion and my experience and is and can be subject to either argument or discussion. In a 458 Winchester I can run a 500 Barnes FN at 2150 fps---Not so in the 458 B&M (as stated somewhere in this thread I think). The 458 B&M is a bit short in case length (NOT CAPACITY) to handle the LENGTH of the 500 Barnes. Now the 458 B&M can get the 500 Woodleigh to 2150 fps and beyond, and the Hornady 500 Versions. As most know we need and require SOLID bullets for work with THICK SKINNED DANGEROUS GAME. Most that have read my ramblings know that I don't care for Round Nose solids for this work. Now any 458 caliber 500 gr FN bullet at 2150 fps has more than enough penetration to be up to the task of taking any of the above mentioned Thick Skinned Dangerous game--it is not "marginal or inadequate" by anyones definition, or at least anyone with experience in such matters. Now with great bullets available from many sources in 458 caliber, 450 gr bullets at 2200-2250 fps are far more than adequate also to accomplish any mission asked of them in this category. I use the 450 Barnes FN for this job, but I understand that NorthFork and GS Custom have superb bullets in this category also, as I am sure there are others. So it is my belief that either 458 Winchester or the 458 B&M is up to the task of Thick Skinned Dangerous Game, no ifs, no ands, no buts! Proper Bullets at proper velocity to deliver both penetration and transfer energy to said dangerous game! Can there possibly be an argument with this?

OK, now let's move on to "THIN SKINNED DANGEROUS GAME". Lion/bear at the top of the list. I have a tiny bit of experience in this arena. But let's choose proper bullets and velocity first and foremost. Now we enter a totally different dimension concerning this matter, we still have to have penetration-first and foremost on my mind always is PENETRATION! I am a penetration freak!! I believe in getting that bullet to where it needs to be PERIOD and that takes proper penetration! While lions and bears in the PERFECT position are not hard to penetrate (as compared to buffalo-elephant-hippo) we are not always in a PERFECT position to place a bullet in tough circumstances, thus we do not want a bullet that is going to fragment, break, shed jackets, or have our penetration reduced in any manner. One more thing that I believe whole heartedly in is "Transfer of Trauma and Energy" to said thin skinned critters! Now this has crap to do with so called kinetic energy which is a totally useless number that some ballistically minded individual thought would add something to Killing Power or some such hogwash! Bullets do the work here---not the numbers! What I am trying to define is a transfer of ENERGY that causes trauma, it is not a number, it is basically a function of how the bullet works to destroy tissue and transfer trauma to said critter.

Let's study this Transfer of Trauma and Energy a step further. We all have seen and heard of deer being hit with ultra high velocity bullets that fragment within the vitals causing instantaneous death on the spot, eh? This is what I call "Transfer of Trauma and Energy". But this is on a herbivore and all herbivores are not created equal, so you won't get this each and every time on every animal you shoot. A high percentage you will. Once upon a time Art Alphin tried to take this concept over to thin skinned dangerous game, thus the famous "Lion Load" from A-Square. Fragmenting bullet in the lions chest would transfer trauma and energy to the lion causing him to give up on the spot, right? Well even Art admitted that this was a poor decision on his part and later regretted doing so. I think most would agree. It was a good thought, but wrong direction in my humble opinion. Thanks to Art for many many things too by the way. But this was not one of them. Again being a penetration freak I don't want a bullet breaking up on Dangerous game period. Brings us to the premium big diameter expanding bullets that retain most of their weight, expand, and penetrate the vitals and beyond. In the meantime rapid expansion to a POINT assists in transferring that trauma and energy to the target.

Now in 458 Winchester we can do this with some of the heavy bullets, I think a 500 gr Woodleigh Soft is right at the top in this category, and followed by a 450 Swift. Both will expand readily and both will penetrate the vitals of any thin skinned dangerous game and beyond. I would have no issue going to the field with either, and there are others too NorthFork, and Barnes come to mind, and I am sure there are others that will do the same.

For me I would rather have a little more velocity for this sort of mission, so for that we must in 458 Winchester and 458 B&M drop the bullet weight to attain that. This brings to mind various 350-400 gr bullets that are more than up for the job. I have used the 400 Swift A Frame in 458 Winchester in this capacity in the past, and it has not let me down. In 458 Winchester the 400 Swift A can be run to 2325 fps to 2400 fps depending on barrel length 22-24 inches. In the 458 B&M and it's 18 inch barrel I can run the 400 Swift to 2350-2360 fps. But 2325 fps is more than adequate. A 400 Swift A will retain it's weight and penetrate thru and thru lion and bear, it will also expand rapidly and from my observations cause tremendous transfer of trauma and energy to lions. While I have not used other bullets, I am very positive that any premium bullet, Northfork, Barnes, Woodleigh, will do the same. Right now one of my choices for this sort of work in the 458 B&M is the 350 gr Barnes TSX at 2450 fps in one of my little 18 inch guns. And yes, I would bet my life on it!

In this category of THIN SKINNED DANGEROUS GAME, to me the 458 Winchester and thus my little 458 B&M are not only up to the task, but are damn superb at it!

While in 1956 and for many many years beyond that I would say that 458 Winchester could have been considered marginal at best! At the time propellent and projectiles were sorely lacking for this capacity case. This is not true today. Today with modern propellent and projectiles the 458 Winchester has come into it's own, and has certainly started a new chapter in it's history. Although I still own several 458 Winchesters, some that are very dear to my heart, they are all retired for the duration now in favor of my very own 458 B&M that equals and exceeds in some categories the 458 Winchester, with the greatest advantage being that I can get this performance in a Winchester M70 platform that is 38.5 inches overall length with a short handy barrel of 18 inches and weigh from 6.5 to 8 lbs depending on the stock and NOT sacrifice performance of projectiles in any way!!!

Well Rich, that is one question answered I think, or at least it should be with this small book I have just written, now on to the rest of your concerns.

Michael

An example below of a proper solid bullet in 458 caliber for the heavies. Test medium is a mix of wet magazines/catalogs 25-30% and wet news print 70-75%. This is of course 25-30% tougher than new print alone.

An example of excellent bullets for Thin Skinned dangerous game.

Now that hopefully the issue concerning the 458s is cleared up on to other great subjects. I have never been known for the "short answer" so please all forgive me, however I think this next one should be rather brief!

Concerns of a "shorter bolt throw" is pure hogwash, and as Rich states "garbage"! There is no discussion here concerning that dead issue, and it is not what the B&Ms are about, nor have I ever mentioned or touted shorter bolt throw as an attribute nor feature to be desired of the B&M cartridges. Where have I ever said such? In fact to be honest it has never even occurred to me. The WSM action is shorter and that is it's only advantage, bolt throw has nothing to do with it. From my perspective I can throw a big long bolt as easy as a short one. Never in my life have I "Short Stroked" anything!

In fact I go completely totally in the other direction, I do everything I can to snatch the bolt out of every rifle I own, and have been successful at times in doing so!!!!!

Funny story, I promise to do everything I can to be brief!

In 2007 I was on a big mission to test the 50 B&M on elephant and buffalo. I had already been grandly successful on elephant, now I had 5 buffalo over on the Matetsi to deal with. I had a new rifle and the only 20 inch version of the 50 B&M ever built. I had only had the rifle 3 weeks prior to the trip so I was very busy with it working any bugs out. Well it so happens this rifle had a faulty bolt stop from Winchester. It was one of those Winchesters that before they closed the door they were sweeping spare parts off the floor I think to put them together. So one did not even have to snatch it to pull the bolt out of the gun. Quick trip back to Brian at SSK and he worked some quick magic and it seemed to work upon it's return. Still I had some doubts so I put it thru the paces and done everything I could to snatch the bolt out of it! I handle things pretty rough sometimes and cut it no slack! Well everything held up fine, so off we go.

In Zim the rifle behaved proper, I snatched and it held together fine! UNTIL about the 3rd buffalo! Well funny thing is, I am hunting with Ross Johnston of HHK and he and I had never hunted before, so we are just getting used to each other and having a great time. My lovely wife had slipped and told Ross that I had in fact suffered a heart attack just that past July, this was November. So she had informed him my nitro was in my right front pocket, just in case! So here is a buff, maybe 50 yds, I am ahead of Ross, we were hunting herd, done left one buff on the ground about 250 yds behind us, now was chasing herd, running, now stopped getting ready for the next one. I shoot, SNATCH hell out the bolt, gun stays in left hand moving forward and to my left, bolt comes out in right hand and goes way further back behind me than is possible! I feel like I have pulled every muscle in my back, bolt flies to the dirt, as I can't hold on to it, I then drop to the ground to my knees in pain! Jesus, everyone is behind me 20 plus yards, they don't have a clue, Ross comes running and knocks me over trying to get his hands in my right pocket, I am wondering what the hell is he doing, and he is struggling to get to my nitro thinking I have another issue, and it takes a bit of explaining to tell him what is going on!

My wife and game scout are about a 100 yds back and of course here they come running too! By the time they arrive I have been able to explain to Ross what the issue is and we have a great laugh then, as the pain from my right shoulder has now eased a bit, after some squalling and some words that I could not quite understand myself at the time!

Well what happened to the buffalo you say???? Hell I missed him!!!! That's what happened! Of course like all good shooters I have an "alibi"!

There was a 2 inch stick that crossed in front of the buffalos chest at an angle, my bullet had hit this stick, deflected and hit another stick 5 ft behind the first stick and missed the buffalo completely! Yes, I packed that stick up and brought it home with me and have it to this day as a reminder of such things! No BS!

Well I guess that was not as short as I had thought it would be!

At any rate Rich, you and I are in full agreement, short bolt throw issues are BS! I do not and never have considered a short bolt throw being of any use or advantage for anything. The only thing about the short WSM action that I consider an advantage is about 1/2-3/4 inch shorter rifle--that is it. Of course it helps tremendously that these bolts are already good to go for the B&M case heads and fit them perfectly without issues!

Michael

Rich

My lab work was done at MDM Laboratories in Conway SC.

Oh, MDM Labs, that's me! I do pressures here. I use strain gages. If the gages are attached proper then the readings generated are about as good as you can get, and it is an excellent tool for your tool pouch and not an absolute by any stretch. I have found this method to be very accurate, if properly used, and properly calculated. This in combination with other things, such as case measurement studies, tend to prove out in the end. In other cartridges I have tested the system with factory ammo and specs and found it to be spot on in most cases.

To answer the other part of you question, and since most of this discussion has been concerning the 458 and versions I will stick to that. If more info is needed for the other cartridges all we need to do is ask about them, happy to oblige.

458 B&M
500 Hornady Interbond 77/AA 2520 Average Velocity 2161 fps Average Pressure 61566 PSI

450 Swift A Frame 78/AA 2520 Average Velocity 2251 fps Average Pressure 58927 PSI

450 Barnes FN Solid 78/AA 2520 Average Velocity 2273 fps Average Pressure 59697 PSI

350 Barnes X 74/RL 10X Average Velocity 2484 fps Average Pressure 54749 PSI

350 NorthFork 72/RL 10X Average Velocity 2464 fps Average Pressure 57993 PSI

300 Barnes X 69/RL 7 Average Velocity 2528 fps Average Pressure 50543 PSI

Case measurements and other study confirm this data--To my satisfaction and I am a demanding bastard!

Michael

Bolt thrust and other information Jeffe answered far better than I could or can--So this will be a short answer for real, some of my ignorance is showing now, Thank you Jeffe for that concern.

Now Rich, thank you very very much for this part of the discussion, I have enjoyed the discussion greatly and thanks for bringing up those issues, which I think are very important issues that need to be brought out and talked about!

Thanks

Michael

I am humbled by the program you have set up. I'm a bit of a seat-of-the-pants guy in comparison. The data is well supported and the work speaks for itself. I hope you did not take any of what I said here as negative. Mark it down to curiosity about how the data was arrived at.

Very Well Done!! You have made a tremendous contribution to the AR forum.

Rich
Buff Killer

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i got 20 cases on order, and corks, to get there... i'll get geoff to come over, too, to help us, if you feel up to it..

Gimme a call!

Rich

No it is I who am humbled thank you very much!

No I did not take anything wrong or negative, and your questions were good, valid questions and it was great to discuss them I think. I appreciate them if anything! And I apologize if anything got too lengthy! It's in my nature!

Thank you, it is important for all of us as shooters to learn and contribute what we can.

Michael

To follow up some of the bullets listed above that was done in test medium the following are some examples of the same bullet, 400 gr Swift shot years earlier with 458 Winchester. Velocity is near the same in the 458 Winchester and the 458 B&M.

First photo is one bullet recovered from a lion at 20 yds. The lion was at an angle and this bullet hit the ball joint on the shoulder. The most damaged Swift I have ever recovered, and from a lion of all things. All other lions shot with this load all passed completely thru, no recovery. The lion dropped after going 2 yds, for practical purposes dead right there.

The newest addition to the family. Winchester M70 500 MDM SS.

that might be the nicest looking SS gun, ever!

Jeffe

It turned out pretty good I think. Did some shooting with it today, irons only, did very good. Working the bugs out!

Michael

Wow, I would love one of these rifles in 416. A few random questions tho...

1. What is the magazine capacity, three or four down?
2. How do you cut off the RUM brass to get to the 2.25" length?
3. Once the RUM brass is cut, is it one pass in the dies to go to 416?
4. Did you ever try the 480 grain Woodleighs intended for the 450 Nitro in the 458 B&M?

And did you send SSK a random Winchester WSM rifle for them to work over, or did they acquire an action and stock to rework to your specifications?

quote:

Originally posted by johnnyreb:
Wow, I would love one of these rifles in 416. A few random questions tho...

1. What is the magazine capacity, three or four down?
2. How do you cut off the RUM brass to get to the 2.25" length?
3. Once the RUM brass is cut, is it one pass in the dies to go to 416?
4. Did you ever try the 480 grain Woodleighs intended for the 450 Nitro in the 458 B&M?

Hey Johnny

Answers
1. 3 down
2. Any number of ways to cut and trim. I have even used a hacksaw. I have a lot of brass already cut (a couple thousand or so). What I have been doing is buying brass and having a friend of mine do the cutting and trimming for a small fee. Anyone who has a rifle done is welcome to some of this brass at my cost.
3. It is a one pass thru the size die and ready.
4. No I have not tried the 480 Woodleighs but have tried the 500 Woodleighs in the 458 B&M at 2130 fps for fantastic performance.

I send SSK any WSM rifle for conversion. All mine are control feed guns. The 458 and 416 could be built on a push feed gun, but I much prefer the control feed for the 50s. So it is best you send your WSM rifle to them, they convert it to 416 B&M and your specs. I will be happy to help out with brass, dies and complete load data. I have dies on hand from both RCBS and Hornady.

Michael

Did you ever think about having your rifles made with a scout scope mount and a rear aperture/front post setup? Maybe to facilitate easier reloading since the magazine only holds three cartidges? While I do not own a bolt rifle set up that way (I do have an M1 Garand with a scout scope setup), I always thought a bolt rifle in 9.3x62 or 411 Hawk with a scout scope, rear aperture and front post, and stripper clip slot for fast reloading would be sweet. It is too bad that no stripper clips from old rimmed military cartridges fit the H&H, Jeffery and other similar sized case heads, at least that I know of...

I reread both pages, and I see that Quality Cartridge is making headstamped brass for the B&M rounds, which is outstanding. I see QC is also making 333 Jeffery Rimless, so they must think highly of the B&M rounds.

After reviewing some dimensions in CotW, but given the results posted here, I will assume that the slight rebate from RUM/Jeffery base body to H&H case head bolt is not an issue? I am sure you accounted for this in your project, but I had to ask, given everything I have read on this board regarding rebated rims...

So, it seems the 416 B&M is a 416 Aagard on steroids in a shorter action (416 x 376 Steyr)?

quote:

Originally posted by johnnyreb:
Did you ever think about having your rifles made with a scout scope mount and a rear aperture/front post setup? Maybe to facilitate easier reloading since the magazine only holds three cartidges? While I do not own a bolt rifle set up that way (I do have an M1 Garand with a scout scope setup), I always thought a bolt rifle in 9.3x62 or 411 Hawk with a scout scope, rear aperture and front post, and stripper clip slot for fast reloading would be sweet. It is too bad that no stripper clips from old rimmed military cartridges fit the H&H, Jeffery and other similar sized case heads, at least that I know of...

Hey Johnny
All my first rifles were set up with JD's T'SOB rail just in front of the receiver for either forward mount scout scopes or Aimpoints, or red dots of some design (I have tried and continue to try different ones). In addition I liked the XS rear ghost ring for those set ups too. Also using a Front Post by NECG. Pretty much what you describe. However, I really have come to not care to much for scout scopes because of the terrible field of view, not very good. My more recent rifles I have left off the T'SOB rail.


I have never had issues with loading the magazine with standard scope in place, but I suppose if you tried some sort of stripper clip set up then a standard scope would for sure be in the way of that sort of operation.

quote:

After reviewing some dimensions in CotW, but given the results posted here, I will assume that the slight rebate from RUM/Jeffery base body to H&H case head bolt is not an issue? I am sure you accounted for this in your project, but I had to ask, given everything I have read on this board regarding rebated rims...

I may not quite be following your question concerning the rebated rim to H&Hcase head bolt?

If you mean that the bolt face is for H&H size case, that is not correct. All these actions were WSM based cartridges, therefore the same as or very close to the RUM case. But the bolt face from Winchester designed for the H&H base cases works excellent with the rebated rim of the RUM or WSM cases regardless, with no modification.

If you mean some folks have an issue with rebated cases with feeding reliability then I have not found that to be the case. But I shoot nothing but Winchester M70s and that is all I can speak for.

I am not sure I answered you correctly as I am not sure I understand the exact question.

As for the 416 Aagard I have heard of it, but don't recall the exact numbers on it. I am quite sure it is a capable cartridge and certainly carries a fine name with it, and a fitting tribute to a fine man!

Thanks
Michael

I may have looked at some dimensions in CotW wrong then regarding the RUM and WSM cartridges. I thought they had H&H rim dimensions, as in .532", with bodies slightly larger, like the 404 Jeffery at .544", or slightly bigger. Is that not the case?

I hope I did not offend you in your research and formation of your cartridges, I was just looking at some dimensions. And my question about feeding might as well have been moot once I reread all of these pages for a third time. It is not like getting the 425 WR to feed on a standard Mauser action, right?

Honestly, the only reason I mentioned the scout scope feature was for something different. I like it on my M1 Garand, but do not hunt with that rifle. I thought it might be a neat setup with your rifles, but I see you have covered all ground. I guess it would be better for carrying, as the magazine area of a bolt rifle seems to be the easiest to grab.