For a very long time I have wanted to do some serious work with these three cartridges, mostly for you guys out there, and to have some new load data with Cutting Edge Bullets, and North Fork Bullets. Most of you know I do a lot of in depth load data with all the B&M cartridges, as I have an interest in doing so, they are mine, so that would be natural, and to be honest everything has taken a back seat to the B&Ms, including all my own 458 Lotts, 458 Winchesters, and 416 Remingtons, which none have been to the field since 2005, and none of mine will go again.... Therefore I have not had time, nor have been able to put effort into getting any new data for common cartridges of any sort.

Goal of this project? To give my pals here, and others, some ideas, some starting places with new load data with many of our new 458 caliber and 416 caliber bullets, many of which we have developed and worked with right here on this forum. I did some really quick loads for 458 Lott and 458 Winchester in December of 2011 for some of the guys, and made that available. Not very in depth, just a quicky of sorts, and with no pressure data to go with it.

This study is going to be far more detailed, and much more effort put into getting some real and proper data, which will include pressure data. As many of you know, I have put a new Oehler System 83 to work here to do pressures with. It is a "Stand Alone" Unit, and as good as it gets, and an Industry Standard. However I don't care much for the reports it gives, and the lack of being able to really review the pressure curves when compared to the RSI Pressure Trace Systems I have been using since 2003. The RSI Pressure Trace 1 was my first unit, and at the time I really did not realize just how good it really was. Like the Oehler, it actually was a stand alone system, and once all the proper barrel measurements were entered, it would actually give you real and proper readings, or as good as it gets when taking any pressure measurements. PT 1 was designed by an outside source for RSI. RSI was not smart enough to get all the info and design from the outside source. The outside source DIED! And along with him, so did PT 1! This caused RSI to hustle and come out with Pressure Trace II.... Same basic software, but a new module and unit. Worked off bluetooth to send info from PT 2 to computer, I don't like that, I like direct wired hookups. My PT 1 has been back to RSI several times for repairs over the years, it was absolutely worn out, connections worn out, hookups worn out, and so forth. RSI has completely ran out of spare parts for PT 1 now, and my PT 1 is on its last spare parts, but it is working. PT II was a disaster and is NOT a stand alone unit. After nearly a year of bickering back and forth with RSI over PT 2, I finally accepted the fact that the only way you could get it to work was to calibrate it to a known source. If you did not have a known source, then you were screwed as PT 2 will not give you real data until it is calibrated to that firearm and cartridge!

Fortunately on most of the B&Ms my load data was completed with PT 1, so I had 1000s of tests and known data. I started working with PT 2, calibrated to PT 1 Data, and it worked correct from that point forward on that rifle, that cartridge........ On several rifles over the last year or so we have calibrated PT 2 from PT 1 data, and all has been good. A few weeks ago, PT 2 starting giving me some crap and I finally got fed up and started talking to Oehler about the System 83....... After some conversation with Oehler I decided to bite the bullet and get an 83 on the way. Not a small decision for someone not actually in business, as the Oehler unit is a 5 figure $ amount. But I do love doing test work, and if I continued, I had to have proper equipment, not only a stand alone system to start from zero if needed, but a system that had backing for years to come as well. One that would be reliable, and should I suffer any problems I have Oehler to come to the rescue if required.

So a few weeks ago I put the Oehler to work. Now one of my big fears was that regardless of what Oehler said, I figured it possible that maybe the 83 was not a real stand alone unit? Or, what if none of my last 10+ years of test work would match the Oehler? Man, there were a lot of unknowns during the week or so it took for the Oehler to arrive! Arrive it did, hookup was easy actually and it works with the same strain gages I already have on the rifles, and have on hand. All I had to do was make a hookup from the gages to the unit, which of course used a different wire system. I was required to learn how to solder, and I am rather proud of myself, I managed that on the very first go around, and got it right!

All my fears faded after setting up and checking the first rifle with the Oehler. All prior data taken with either PT 1 or PT 2 after calibration, was spot on with the Oehler data! Second rifle, same story. Now 4 more rifles later, all the same. Two things, the Oehler is in fact a stand alone system, and you can start from ZERO DATA and get correct and proper measurements. Next, all the data I gathered over the last 10+ years is GOOD TO GO........... I was very happy with this..... What I did not care much for was the Oehler Reports, which leave a lot to be desired, at least to me. I have been used to being able to save a particular test, actually view the pressure curve (which is very revealing as to how a load burns) and this is just not available on the Oehler Software! So I decided to sort PT 2 out, which was rather simple in the end, replace the batteries dumbass, and it was sorted out! Believe it or not! So I calibrated the PT 2 from data gathered on the Oehler and it works great, both systems. And that is how I have decided to work with the two systems in conjunction, The Oehler 83 to calibrate with, and to do check tests, and most of the data with the PT 2 system to have proper reports and saved tests. Any anomalies are tested on both systems, along with check tests throughout the data projects. This way, I have the best of both worlds, Oehler Reliability, and the PT more desirable software and viewing capabilities. PT 2 calibrated from the Oehler is proving absolutely reliable and data matching across the board.



Here you see both systems at work, Oehler on the bench, and the PT in the yellow box on the bench seat.........



Now with all this said, I must tell you what Ken Oehler has to say about Chamber Pressures......

quote:

Chamber pressure measurement is a blend of science, black art, and common sense. There are few absolutes; the best we can expect is to reliably distinguish between the safe and the unsafe. Pressure measurements are tedious, but they must be made.

quote:

Shooters have a good idea of what happens in front of the gun, but they have no idea of what is going on inside the gun. If nothing breakds, it's ok; if the cartridge case can't be reloaded, its borderline; if the gun blows up the load was a little hot!

For many pages Ken goes on to tell us about Copper Crusher, transducers, and strain gage measurements, how they work, and that NONE ARE ABSOLUTE.............. That is correct, no method is ABSOLUTE, all are relative to the rifle you are working with, the brass, the powder, primer, environmental conditions, barrel, chamber, and hundreds of other factors that come into play. THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES when either estimating or measuring pressures. My Rifle is not Your Rifle! My Powder is not Your Powder...... and so forth, and so on............. I may have a load that generates 59000 PSI in my rifle, my powder, my load...... It may not be the same in YOUR RIFLE and YOUR POWDER, in fact, its almost a given that it WILL NOT BE THE SAME............ This not only goes for this data, but any and all data, even the data from the manufacturers of bullets, powder, and what have you. Every chamber is different, every rifle is different, so use any data you may get with caution and always start much lower than top end. You are responsible for your own safety using any data....... Be responsible and use proper protocols when working up your load data.

Velocity is a direct link to pressures. While you may not have pressure measuring equipment, most of you run chronographs. If you are running close to the same velocity then your pressures are more than likely going to be close as well. If you are running far more velocity, then you can bet you are also running more pressure! It works that way and there are NO FREE RIDES, there are no magic rifles, and you do not have a magic rifle that is able to produce 100 fps more than normal operating pressures would allow! Today our rifles are very capable of handling far more than max pressures, and you cannot see this much of the time! And, by the time you do see it, you are more than likely way over the top end..........

The data we gather will be available for your use from the B&M website under Additional Research pages.

I will be using powder that I have available, and I will be happy to take requests on loads or powders that I did not choose to begin with, if I have the powder, or I can get it, and deem it safe to begin with. Most powders I have on hand, but there are some powders that might be optimum for these three cartridges by todays terms that I do not have on hand. I will always do my best to get this for you if I can, powders are hard to come by these days.......

What I will NOT do, is be testing common conventional bullets. There is plenty of data on that stuff out there. I intend to ONLY WORK with Cutting Edge Bullets and North Fork Bullets, no more....... This is not data to go plinking cans with, this is data that you can use to go to the field with, and one only should go to the field with proper bullets, end of story..........

I already have a good start with 458 Lott. The rifle I am using is a totally useless POS for anything except what I am doing with it. It is big, heavy and even has a muzzle brake on it. Barrel is 24 inches. The rifle was built on a Dakota African Action 15 or more years ago. The builder decided that it needed to be 13 lbs, have a muzzle brake and so forth. It is totally useless with the exception of using it for a test rifle and that is what we are doing. I have had the rifle for a very long time, and the velocity it gives is pretty much spot on with the various 24 inch Winchester M70s I have in 458 Lott, so what I get here, you should be getting close with most any 24 inch barrel 458 Lott. Not always true, had a fellow here one time with a 25 inch CZ 458 Lott and the same loads I was getting 2275 fps out of in a 24 inch Winchester, he was only getting 2150 fps with the same load. ???? Differences in barrels..........

Here is that monster stupid looking thing on the right, next to a proper go to the field with 500 B&M on the left...........





I do have to admit however, it makes an excellent test rifle, you can shoot this thing all day long and never know it......... It does blow some smoke out that muzzle brake from time to time, and that is not good........

Where are we so far? Well, I have run data with the Cutting Edge 480 #13 Solid and its matching 450 HP, 450 #13 Solid and 420 HP, currently in a few minutes going to the 3rd generation with the 370, 295 #13 HP LG bullets, seated deep, using Talon Tips, and also 3rd generation 250 Socom bullet from Cutting Edge. Much of the 3rd gen is going to reach top end, with a few that will need or move to 4th generation data. During this time, I will start loading some of the various North Forks and continue data on those, and take a look at the rest of the CEBs.............. I have not posted data yet, so it is not available yet.

12/15/2013 I ran some quick data, no pressure data then, and run the same loads now with pressures. So far, so good, a huge exception however and that was with RL 15. I used RL 15 nearly exclusively from 1999 right on to 2005 the last time I had a 458 Lott in the field, with good results, always running 500s at 2250-2275 fps or so. Well, I did the 480/450s and the 450/420s with RL 15 in 2011, and got the same results. BUT in 2013, just LAST WEEK, the same exact loads gave nearly 100 fps LESS across the board, pressures running 40000-45000 PSI.......... My Powder is not Your Powder... And RL 15 in 2011 was 100 fps faster than RL 15 in 2013!!!!!!!! Now, just the opposite COULD OCCUR as well, keep these things in mind when working up ANY DATA........................

The other powders I used in 2011, TAC and IMR 8208 are still very close, and nearly spot on the money with 2013 results.................... I have also included data yesterday with these bullets with IMR 4320, with good results. Right now, IMR 8208 is a big winner in 458 Lott with heavier bullets.

Another bright spot, the 250 Socom..... Currently over 3000 fps and 49000 PSI.... Very safe..... One more 3rd gen load to test this morning, that this goes up......

I think we have some interesting things coming up with this for you guys.....

Next will be 458 Winchester, followed by 416 Remington, and will start working these in even as I am doing data on other things too........ This will not be done overnight, and will be a process and take some time..................

So off we go.....................

Michael

That is a big undertaking in a generous unselfish manner. If you keep this up I am going to think you are nice

quote:

If you keep this up I am going to think you are nice

Boomy, let's not get carried away :-)

Great, Mike. Thanks.

I'm eagerly waiting for the 458 Win testing as I'm going to start loading it for that in a couple of months

As always, Michael, your efforts will be greatly appreciated. I anxiously await your results.

Michael,
I saw some IMR 8208 at Cabela's yesterday...do you have plenty of that?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Michael,
I saw some IMR 8208 at Cabela's yesterday...do you have plenty of that?

Lane, so far yes, 24+ lbs...... This is really a do everything powder it seems......... At least in many of the cartridges I work with.

Thanks, keep looking.............

I don't mind telling you, have been running pressures all day since around 7 am, I am tired of it now...Ran 24 different tests today..... all 458 Lott..... Making some progress.......

RIck, Frank, thanks but you know I love doing this sort of stuff anyway.........

Progress today, well right off the top of my head, two good 250 Socom Loads, one with H-4198 topping 3100 fps, at 52000 PSI.... Pretty neat, and very safe.......

450 North Forks/and CEBs running high 2300s 55000 to 59000 PSI... Good stuff.... 480s running 2275 to 2300 at 58000 + a bit and a few other things going well......

Had some rather warm runs today switching over to some North Forks, which suffered two things, one, slightly deeper seated to work in the gun, and two, a Primer Lot Change.... So a little hotter primer, and slightly deeper seating sent me to 65 and 67000 a few times, so having to back down on TAC and IMR 8208 with the North Forks a bit....... I also had 450 #13s running too hot with TAC because of Primer Lot change... Using Federal 215s..... Also backing down the #13 load with TAC.

Lots of work left to do.....

M

Thank you very much for your effort! Much appreciated!

I think a lot of us Lott shooters use H4895, any chance you'll include that in your test?

Looking forward to using your load data as a base line when developing loads for the lighter .458 CEB bullets in my Lott!

quote:

Originally posted by Klein:
Thank you very much for your effort! Much appreciated!

I think a lot of us Lott shooters use H4895, any chance you'll include that in your test?

Looking forward to using your load data as a base line when developing loads for the lighter .458 CEB bullets in my Lott!

Klein

I would be happy to do some H-4895..... I don't think I have any of that however? I think at one time I had some IMR 4895 for something, but don't recall having H-4895, I can look........?????

I have a lot of data to enter and soon as I get something worth putting out I will let you guys know.....

M

Klein

I was just over at Powder Valley, and was able to snag a # of H-4895 to do some tests with....... Crazy as it sounds
I was also able to pick up a few other things, that had changed since yesterday....! Still no AA 2230 however... or XTerminator.... I have maybe a 1/4 lb of X......

Made more progress on 458 Lott today as well... I may have enough to get in published today???? Or tomorrow?
M

Michael

If I could I would have sent you a can of H4895, but getting it in and out of two countries would be a nightmare I am sure.

I have to say I am simply amazed by the commitment you show us. I take my hat off to you!

quote:

Originally posted by Klein:
Michael

I have to say I am simply amazed by the commitment you show us. I take my hat off to you!

I think I have 4-or 5 lbs of AA2230 coming friday-will let you know if it actually shows up.

Thank you up front for all of the work you are doing and are about to do. I too am quite interested to learn of your findings on the 450gr and 480gr bullets in the .458 WM.

Eric

Good Evening Gents....
Hope all is well wherever you might be.....

Klein, Lane, Eleeton, thanks, I am quite interested in much of this myself, and something I have had planned a long time but one thing or another and just did not get to it. Well, we on it now. This will be a long term project, and one that we can continue to update as we move forward.

One thing that would be interesting to me to find out... What are you guys shooting/loading these days in these cartridges? Do you have a particular load that you are using that I can convert over to either CEB or North Fork bullets, or both? If you are not comfortable posting the load in public, send me a private message, if I have the powder, or can get it, we will test it!

But Please allow me to concentrate on what we are working on at the moment, and right now it is 458 Lott, so if you have something special, now is the time...........

I have made some decent progress with 458 Lott since last week. Enough so that I have it now posted on the B&M website, Additional Research Page at the bottom, simple pdf document, so just download it. Direct link to the Additional Research Page;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...tional-Research.html

Take notice of how I note on the document "11142013".... That is uploaded 11/14/2013..... So if you pay attention to that you will know when I update something. All my pdf documents are so noted. If I get work done, put a new upload next week, then it will have the date of the upload.......

I am not finished by any stretch with 458 Lott... I have some more work to do with some chosen North Forks, I think I have 350 CPS and 350 Pre Softs left to do, and some others I believe.

Take notice on heavier bullets we will use a different powder than when we get to lighter weight bullets. Slower powders give us better results with the heavier bullets, faster powders give us better results with the lighter bullets. In 458 Lott and 458 Winchester that starts to break at around 400 grs... Less than 400 grs you are going to see mostly RL 7 and H-4198, sometimes some IMR 4198... RL 7 and H-4198 have really proven themselves with lighter bullets across the board in big bore calibers from 416-.510 caliber....... When we get to heavier bullets we make the switch to slower powders such as IMR 8208, RL 15, TAC, and IMR 4320... Still not extremely slow powders, but slower than the RL 7 and H-4198..

There is rarely any reason to use too many powders with the lighter bullets other than RL 7 and H-4198..... However, if you have a favorite, let me know, if I have it I will test it for us.

You can also see sometimes I stop way before getting to top end pressures on some loads or powders with a certain bullet. There are various reasons for that, perhaps using a slower powder on a mid weight bullet is just not ever going to prove out top end, we can't get enough powder in the case to get there. So we go to a point, and stop. Sometimes it will be because I don't like the curves, traces that are showing up with something.... If I stop with something, there is a reason for it.

Sometimes I might stop just because by damned that is enough, and you don't need anymore! LOL......

We have some really incredible bullets, that will do the job required of them at even low velocity, I don't think we need to push to the extreme max to get every fps we can...... There just is no need to do that.

Go check it out, give me some feedback, the purpose of this is to assist and help you, so let me know what I can do if I am not doing it.........

Michael

Killing a few minutes before going to roost.... So I may drone on a bit....

In the Lott data you will see we have the 250 Socom at 3100 with H-4198 and a bit over 3000 with RL 7, near 48000 PSI with RL 7 and 51000 with H-4198.... This is enough guys, you don't need more than that I promise. Do not discount this bullet because of its weight, and don't tell it that it is a small bullet, it does not understand that concept. For those that don't know, I used this same bullet in my 458 B&M in Africa this past July. In South Africa I tested it on Zebra, wildebeast, pigs, and several other critters. None were recovered! On any zebra/wildebeast broadsides they exited, and did tremendous damage in between... So incredible you have to open these animals up to understand it completely. It also blew the brains completely out of a hippo at 17 yards, on the dirt... and took a nice big 14 ft croc, breaking his neck completely. I was only running it at 2900 fps.......... Do not underestimate this bullet........ I seated to the second groove, crimped, and you can put a Talon Tip in, and work through the magazines.....

In addition, the 295 and 370 #13 HP LGs.. (Lever Gun) are very capable as well, and seated to the top groove, crimped, they can also work with a Talon Tip in the magazine.

Now, this Talon Tip will gain you 125-150 fps IMPACT VELOCITY at 50 yds. This is significant with these bullets... They like Impact Velocity.

You will see I did not test any 500 gr Safari #13 Solids.. Why? You don't need them to be perfectly honest. When Dan and I were talking about 458s we planned a 450, 480 for the Nitro boys, and a 500 for the Lott + size capacity. When I got the 480s and tested them, I told Dan at the time, the hell with a 500, its just not needed, the 480 will do it all. Later Dan did the 500s anyway, cause you know how folks are, gotta have the 500s! Me, I never have bought any, or even tested them, this 480 is more than enough, hell the 450 is more than enough. In fact, today, even in the Lott, I would most likely run the 450s myself.

Of more note... When you see some loads up around 60000-62000 PSI... You better take it easy cause you are at top end, back off this load, and work up in your rifle. My rifle is not your rifle, my powder is not your powder, my primers are not your primers!!!!!!!! Take Heed to this.

Don't believe me? Take a look at the Safari Solids/Raptors done in 12/2011 and done 11/2013!
Take a look at 82/RL 15! Example; 2011--480 #13 Solid 82/RL 15 2317 fps. 2013--480 #13 Solid 82/RL 15 2209 fps!!!!!!! That is over 100 fps LESS than the same load in 2011.

And it ran across the board the same with all RL 15 tested. My Powder Ain't Your Powder! And, what I had in 2011 ain't the same chemistry as I have right now!

In Jan this year, I was loading some 500 MDM reduced loads, 100/RL 15 was giving me a nice 2250 fps with a 500 #13 Solid.. Except I ran out of powder? I found some new RL 15, and found that I had to have 102.5/RL 15 to equal the last keg........

The other day, I had to change Primer Lot #s! All are Fed 215s...... But using a different lot# added on average 3000 PSI to every load, and in some cases I had to back down a gr or two of powder! My Primers are not your Primers..........

Most of you run chronos, check your chrono, if you are running a 24 inch barrel, and running close to my velocities, then you are more than likely running close to my pressures. This is not absolute of course, but just another indicator for you to use. Listen to your brass, and more important, your rifle. If you see something or feel something just not right, trust those instincts and back down. Chambers and barrels are different, if your chamber is tight, you are going to run more pressure, loose, less pressure, tight barrel-more pressure and so forth...

I have some more powders we are going to investigate, Benchmark and Varget at the top of the list, just have to work out the loads, both lott and win I think.... Then I wills scrounge around for some more. H-4895 on the way, should have it for next weeks tests..... I think I have some IMR 4895 as well... So that too... Still much to go.... Just starting...

Go take a look at the data... Find it here.....

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...tional-Research.html

Catch you guys tomorrow, don't forget, if you have some requests, or special loads you want checked with CEB or North Forks, let me know, if we can we will......

Tired, going to roost...
M

MIght as well pin this one too, it's gonna be good.

12/15/11 ... 450gr #13 Solid ... 84/RL 15 ... Fed 215 ... 2384 ... 2375 ... ES 9 fps ... ave = 2380 fps
11/9/13 ... 450gr #13 Solid ... 84/RL 15 ... Fed 215 ... 2299 ... 2271 ... ES 28 fps ... ave = 2285 fps ... 44727 PSI

"The RL-15 from 2011 is vastly different from 2013--Make Note of This!"

I found this very interesting, and am taking notes.
We have also certainly seen the same thing with RL-10X old vs. new:
The newer is slower, about 100 fps slower for same powder charge in the 400 Whelen with 300-grainers.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Killing a few minutes before going to roost.... So I may drone on a bit....

In the Lott data you will see we have the 250 Socom at 3100 with H-4198 and a bit over 3000 with RL 7, near 48000 PSI with RL 7 and 51000 with H-4198.... This is enough guys, you don't need more than that I promise. Do not discount this bullet because of its weight, and don't tell it that it is a small bullet, it does not understand that concept. For those that don't know, I used this same bullet in my 458 B&M in Africa this past July. In South Africa I tested it on Zebra, wildebeast, pigs, and several other critters. None were recovered! On any zebra/wildebeast broadsides they exited, and did tremendous damage in between... So incredible you have to open these animals up to understand it completely. It also blew the brains completely out of a hippo at 17 yards, on the dirt... and took a nice big 14 ft croc, breaking his neck completely. I was only running it at 2900 fps.......... Do not underestimate this bullet........ I seated to the second groove, crimped, and you can put a Talon Tip in, and work through the magazines.....

In addition, the 295 and 370 #13 HP LGs.. (Lever Gun) are very capable as well, and seated to the top groove, crimped, they can also work with a Talon Tip in the magazine.

Now, this Talon Tip will gain you 125-150 fps IMPACT VELOCITY at 50 yds. This is significant with these bullets... They like Impact Velocity.

You will see I did not test any 500 gr Safari #13 Solids.. Why? You don't need them to be perfectly honest. When Dan and I were talking about 458s we planned a 450, 480 for the Nitro boys, and a 500 for the Lott + size capacity. When I got the 480s and tested them, I told Dan at the time, the hell with a 500, its just not needed, the 480 will do it all. Later Dan did the 500s anyway, cause you know how folks are, gotta have the 500s! Me, I never have bought any, or even tested them, this 480 is more than enough, hell the 450 is more than enough. In fact, today, even in the Lott, I would most likely run the 450s myself.

Of more note... When you see some loads up around 60000-62000 PSI... You better take it easy cause you are at top end, back off this load, and work up in your rifle. My rifle is not your rifle, my powder is not your powder, my primers are not your primers!!!!!!!! Take Heed to this.

Don't believe me? Take a look at the Safari Solids/Raptors done in 12/2011 and done 11/2013!
Take a look at 82/RL 15! Example; 2011--480 #13 Solid 82/RL 15 2317 fps. 2013--480 #13 Solid 82/RL 15 2209 fps!!!!!!! That is over 100 fps LESS than the same load in 2011.

And it ran across the board the same with all RL 15 tested. My Powder Ain't Your Powder! And, what I had in 2011 ain't the same chemistry as I have right now!

In Jan this year, I was loading some 500 MDM reduced loads, 100/RL 15 was giving me a nice 2250 fps with a 500 #13 Solid.. Except I ran out of powder? I found some new RL 15, and found that I had to have 102.5/RL 15 to equal the last keg........

The other day, I had to change Primer Lot #s! All are Fed 215s...... But using a different lot# added on average 3000 PSI to every load, and in some cases I had to back down a gr or two of powder! My Primers are not your Primers..........

Most of you run chronos, check your chrono, if you are running a 24 inch barrel, and running close to my velocities, then you are more than likely running close to my pressures. This is not absolute of course, but just another indicator for you to use. Listen to your brass, and more important, your rifle. If you see something or feel something just not right, trust those instincts and back down. Chambers and barrels are different, if your chamber is tight, you are going to run more pressure, loose, less pressure, tight barrel-more pressure and so forth...

I have some more powders we are going to investigate, Benchmark and Varget at the top of the list, just have to work out the loads, both lott and win I think.... Then I wills scrounge around for some more. H-4895 on the way, should have it for next weeks tests..... I think I have some IMR 4895 as well... So that too... Still much to go.... Just starting...

Go take a look at the data... Find it here.....

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...tional-Research.html

Catch you guys tomorrow, don't forget, if you have some requests, or special loads you want checked with CEB or North Forks, let me know, if we can we will......

Tired, going to roost...
M

I guess Mikes think alike! Mike Brady (original owner of North Fork) always said the exact same thing. He would not even make 500 gr .458 solids.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
12/15/11 ... 450gr #13 Solid ... 84/RL 15 ... Fed 215 ... 2384 ... 2375 ... ES 9 fps ... ave = 2380 fps
11/9/13 ... 450gr #13 Solid ... 84/RL 15 ... Fed 215 ... 2299 ... 2271 ... ES 28 fps ... ave = 2285 fps ... 44727 PSI

"The RL-15 from 2011 is vastly different from 2013--Make Note of This!"

I found this very interesting, and am taking notes.
We have also certainly seen the same thing with RL-10X old vs. new:
The newer is slower, about 100 fps slower for same powder charge in the 400 Whelen with 300-grainers.

RIP......... You have seen differences with RL 10X? Join the crowd, nearly every keg I have has come in different. God Almighty I had a 5 lb keg I did the first 500 MDM pressure tests with, and it was INSANE... I could run 500 gr #13 Solids at over 2600 FPS at 62750 PSI this was 2010 with 102/RL 10X.... In Jan of 2011 a new 5# Keg.... Now I was at 60000 PSI 500 #13 with 96/RL 10X...... Later in 2011, November, New 5# keg and 88/RL 10X was giving me 61000 PSI and 2370 fps!!!!! Now that is a hell of a change from 102/RL 10X at 62000 PSI to 88/RL 10X at 61000 PSI and a drop of over 200 fps!

DAMN................ And this very fact is one thing that has prompted me to start working with different blends of powder in the 500 MDM... I want that Old 5# Keg of RL 10X back! I just have not found a way to get it yet, but blending different powders may very well find it again!!!!! ??????? "We Endeavor to Persevere"

I have seen smaller changes in other powders as well, H-4198 is one, but only a grain or so. IMR 4198 has been a bit off from time to time, again not by much. And a few others as well.....

I have seen changes in Primers as well, even within manufacturer. I consider Fed 215 as good as it gets and have used them for many years, but time to time I have seen some hot Fed 215s...... Not too long ago I started a "Primer Test", and saw some really good things and consistency with other primers, Win Large Rifle Mag did very well, and I keep a few on hand. They showed as good or better than the Fed 215s....

So there are all sorts of things going on, and this is why No Pressure Reading of any sort, from any source, regardless of how marketed can be 100% Absolute..... Not in your lifetime or mine. Ken Oehler is 100% spot on with this.... Use any data from any source wisely and safely...........

M

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

I guess Mikes think alike! Mike Brady (original owner of North Fork) always said the exact same thing. He would not even make 500 gr .458 solids.

I can't see any downsides to this myself........... I only spoke with him once, he was very difficult to talk too. HEH... Might say a little "Dry"............. But a good fellow, very knowledgable, and created a good bullet. John and the boys will now carry that onward and upward bringing new ideas to the table, such as the "Expanding CPS"...... John? LOL................ A very unique niche this Expanding CPS..... North Fork needs to take advantage of this.........

Michael

Nothing shows extremes better than actually seeing it on paper...... So in light of me doing my best to warn all of you about changes in powder, its actually best if I show you in Black and White....

Take a look at my data with RL 10X and 500 MDM Below..................



Now when this data was first available in 2010, I pretty much had control of all the 500 MDMs that were outside my care (THANK GOODNESS FOR THIS)....... When I discovered this insane discrepancy I quickly pulled the data and went to work getting new data with the 500 MDM.......

Now, in November 2011 had the data not been pulled, and was still considered valid from 2010 tests, and in 2011 88/RL 10X was giving nearly 61000 PSI and one of the guys went ahead and loaded 102/RL 10X of the 2011 variety?? 14 grs over Max.......

This could have been UGLY to say the least...............

So can you see why everyone says to start with your loads at 10% under??? How many of us really does that? I would be telling you a huge lie if I said I did! LOL......... But damn you better do as I say, and not as I do...................

i have been very successful using the Accurate Powders web site with loads they suggest for 458 WM and 458 Lott.
The 458 Lott 500 Hor load with AA 2520 actually exceeded their tested velocity a bit and my rifle has a 23" pipe. About 2335 FPS. (Ohler 35 Chrono).
They also have data and pressure listed for the 458 WM with 2230 & XTERMINATOR. Velocities and load densities are the same however the X Terminator shows a bit higher pressure. That could be from lot-lot canister differences.

EZ

Very cogent warning and documented illustration Michael!

I reckon we're all lucky you didn't have a 55# keg of that early 2010 RL-10X powder or we'd likely not be aware of this and yes someone would be shooting 'blue pill' loadings in their 500 MDM with the currently available powder...

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

I guess Mikes think alike! Mike Brady (original owner of North Fork) always said the exact same thing. He would not even make 500 gr .458 solids.

I only spoke with him once, he was very difficult to talk too. HEH... Might say a little "Dry"............. But a good fellow, very knowledgable, and created a good bullet. Michael

Mike Brady is a great fellow! He taught me alot of what I know about reloading. He always would run pressure test for me if I asked. It just took him a while to warm up to new people...but once he did...he would give you the shirt off his back.

He was the first (to my knowledge) to produce a good flat nose monolithic bore-riding solid with driving bands.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
i have been very successful using the Accurate Powders web site with loads they suggest for 458 WM and 458 Lott.
The 458 Lott 500 Hor load with AA 2520 actually exceeded their tested velocity a bit and my rifle has a 23" pipe. About 2335 FPS. (Ohler 35 Chrono).
They also have data and pressure listed for the 458 WM with 2230 & XTERMINATOR. Velocities and load densities are the same however the X Terminator shows a bit higher pressure. That could be from lot-lot canister differences.

EZ

EZ......

They list 86 AA 2520 as top end and 61000 with a 500 whatever.... Of course I had to try this with 480 and 450 Solids.. HEH..... the 480 with 86 gave over 2400 fps and 67000 PSI.. Rifle started talking to me, the 450 gave 2465 or so fps and 65000 PSI... I brought both down 84 with the 450 and it was nice, I think 59000 as I recall, and 82 with the 480 but was still around 64000 or so, dropping down to 80 for next test. AA 2520 is a good powder however for the Lott.. and probably for the Win as well. We will see.....

Have busted a chunk out of the tang area of the stock on the Lott... Has a hairline crack going towards the right side pistol grip, keeping an eye on that.....

Lane..... Actually, RIP knows the history of these things far better than I, but I think Mike basically patterned the old North Forks after the GSC bullets.... Of course todays North Fork is a HUGE improvement over the old design, to the tune of around 20-25% deeper penetration, and all I have tested are 100% straight line penetration as well............ Even before GSC and North Fork was the Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer I believe as well...... Jack Carter.....

Back to the range boys, still shooting................... Just taking a small lunch break.....

Michael

Yesterday I worked a bit with AA 2520, IMR 4064 and IMR 4895 with 450s to 480s. Results were actually pretty decent, top ends coming in at 2390-2417 with the 450s, all three powders showing good results in the 458 Lott. 480 coming in 2294-2323 with AA 2520 and IMR 4895...

Very good results with North Fork 350 CPS and 350 Pre Softs with H-322 both running 2630-2640 fps at 55000... No need to do more with that, will try some RL 7 with those later.... Give a couple of different powders at least. Also using H-322 with the 325#13 Solid and 325 North Fork CPS at 2730 fps at 54000 and under... don't underestimate these two bullets........

I have a full plate today outside of shooting, so I probably won't get anything done until next week.

I did post data yesterday again however.....

Enjoy the weekend..............

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Have busted a chunk out of the tang area of the stock on the Lott... Has a hairline crack going towards the right side pistol grip, keeping an eye on that.....

Michael

That's not the synthetic-stocked .458 Lott Dakota is it?

Primers:
Thanks for the observations on those varying lot-to-lot also.
Something else to consider, and a good reason to buy primers in 10,000-count lots at least.
I too really like the Winchester WLR standard large rifle primer,
and the Federal F215 (or GM215M) for a "magnum" primer.
I hear there is no difference between the F215 and the GM215M except for the pay of the inspector watching them go by ...

RIP....
Yep some sort of big fiberglass stock not sure what make? No worries, shoot it until it falls to pieces....

Primers... Can be a difference sometimes, not normal, just on occasion of last few years....

I tested Fed 215s against Fed GM215s and there was ZERO difference in pressures, consistency, velocity, nothing. You could not see anything on the curves.... just plain nothing.... So I can't tell you......???? Just inspected I suppose.....

Excellent morning, I was out first thing with the 458 Winchester M70.... Hookup great with Oehler and PT 2 as well. I went back to my records and had tested some factory 458 Winchester ammo in 2006 on PT 1. I still had that ammo, so I took it out, along with a load with the 450 #13 Solid and 76/IMR 8208. I intended to calibrate with these two loads... Calibrate PT 2 to the Oehler..... So, in 2006 the 510 Softs Win Factory ammo gave me 2010 fps and 43193 PSI on PT 1..... In 2013, Today, on the Oehler this exact same box of ammo gave me 2016 fps and 43500 PSI.... I was very pleased with this info, yet again, the Oehler confirming 10+ years of work with PT 1. After calibrating PT 2 to the Oehler Data, PT 2 read 2012 fps and 43433 PSI........... I would say that is about as good as it can get.............. 458 Winchester is set up, its ready, got excellent hookup on both machines, and I expect I will start working in data first of the week............ I will work both 458 Lott and Win next week I think, and then have to set up a 416 Remington with a gage.......... Looking very good right now.....

Michael

Excellent. Thanks.

Any chance for a 400-grainer test in the .458 WinMag?
420-grain CEB at 2400 fps would be even better.

450-grainer is definitely the best all-arounder,
and 250-grainers at near Mach 3 will do some duty, but

I always wondered what the pressures of the .458 WinMag were like to get a 400-grain bullet to 2400 fps.
I have blown some primers with IMR-4198 getting there.
Have not tried again since that.

Same wondering now about the .458 B&M, since I have one of those too.

A .458-cal 400-grainer at 2400 fps shoots flat enough and hard enough to be very useful.
420-grain Safari Raptor would be even better.
I better go see what the .458 B&M does with similar, having never thought about how fast those could go ...

.458 B&M 20" barrel:

400gr North Fork ... 70/RL-7 ... Fed 215 ... 2374 ... 2357 ... 17 ... 2365 fps ave ... 63545 PSI

420 CEB BBW #13 HP ... 78/TAC ... Fed 215 ... 2360 ... 2356 ... 4 ... 2358 fps ave ... 59532 PSI

A 23"-Barreled .458 B&M will do my dream loads.

Now, we wait with bated breath for a 24" .458 WinMag?

Now this is fun--

It appears that Rip picks a load and designs a rifle that will shoot it---

Whereas-

Michael--in his opening statement about B&M-designed the rifle he wanted to use-then went and created bullets and loads to fit it---

diametric approaches--both achieving their goals--



and we are all happy-

RIP..........

Yes, we will be working with the 400 North Fork Pre Softs...... In 458 Win and 458 Lott.

From around 1999 or so I used a wonderful little factory 22 in Win M70 in 458 Win. I loved this rifle, my most favorite a the time. I used a 400 Swift A Frame with 70/RL 7 for 2325 fps in this 22 inch gun. I shot a lot of critters with this, lion, all sorts of plains game, and even shot a buffalo with it, all successful. I ran out of Swifts, and so did Swift, could not get any for about a year. So I tried the 400 Woodleighs, but found them very soft, and any impacts over 2100 fps would flatten them like pancakes. I shot an impala from the rear with one at 2300 fps, it never made it to the vitals, but it knocked it down on the spot.. but ugly after that, the recovered bullet was a big flat pancake. I slowed that bullet down to 2100 fps and it performed proper.

In 2006 I did a pressure test on that load in 458 Winchester, 24 inch barrel, same exact rifle we are getting ready to test now, 2361 fps at 57500 PSI. Possibly the North Fork might give us that little more velocity, with equal or less pressure. I always found RL 7 excellent for this application, and extremely consistent anything before 2006 anyway.

Yes, I used the exact same load in 458 B&M as well, and your data is spot on for that. You know, I have a 24 inch barrel 458 B&M, Win M1885 Single Shot, I have not shot it all that much, but I show loads with the 370 #13s LGs at 2506 fps various 450 Gr bullets, Swift, Barnes, and 450 #13 Solids at 2300+, I even show a 500 Hornady with 76/AA 2520 at 2198 fps. So yes, I believe a 23-24 inch 458 B&M will get a 400 to 2400 pretty easy. I will try and work in some of the now common 458 B&M loads and see what happens in the 24 inch M1885....

A 20 inch 458 B&M is pretty much equal to a 24 inch 458 Winchester. A 24 inch 458 B&M will surpass the Winchester, and approach just under Lott by 50-75 fps it appears.... Me, I will stick with 18, take a small loss and forget about it...........


I am very pleased with the way all the Pressure systems are working here..... Getting the 458 Winchester ready yesterday morning was just incredible to see the exact or near exact results all the way from 2006 to yesterday!!!!!!! One other thing to mention, the 2011 Tests with 458 Winchester I used a load 450 #13 Solid with 76/IMR 8208, in 2011 it gave 2314 fps in the same 24 inch 458 M70..... Yesterday with a totally different lot and keg of IMR 8208 the 450 #13 gave us 2322 fps TWICE, once with 4 rounds test with the Oehler, and again with 4 rounds using PT 2.... The Oehler gave us 62400 PSI and PT 2 gave us 61030 PSI..... Consistency from 2011 to 2013 with IMR 8208 does not seem to be an issue... I really like this powder a lot, one of my favorites....... You people should look into this powder........

Michael

This is great!
A trusted source is going to give us .458 Win Mag pressure data,
including a very interesting 400-grain North Fork bullet.

A 400 grain .458 WinMag soft point of tough construction at 2400 fps with a 24" barrel and pressures no higher than 63K psi:
Is it possible?

Golly gee! A 24"-barreled .458 B&M exists also!

The 400-grain North Fork cannot be beat as candidate for such a load.



Quick Overview
The main use for this bullet is Alaska. It can comfortably reach 2400 to 2500fps from a 458 Winchester Magnum, depending on barrel length. That combination will smite, with finality, any and all beasts found within that state. Moose and big bear of any size will have met their match. It would also be suitable for much of Africa but, due to the sectional density, I would leave the Cape buffalos to the 458-450 grain bullet.

NORTHFORK CLAIMS "IT CAN COMFORTABLY REACH 2400 TO 2500 FPS FROM A 458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM, DEPENDING ON BARREL LENGTH."

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
i have been very successful using the Accurate Powders web site with loads they suggest for 458 WM and 458 Lott.
The 458 Lott 500 Hor load with AA 2520 actually exceeded their tested velocity a bit and my rifle has a 23" pipe. About 2335 FPS. (Ohler 35 Chrono).
They also have data and pressure listed for the 458 WM with 2230 & XTERMINATOR. Velocities and load densities are the same however the X Terminator shows a bit higher pressure. That could be from lot-lot canister differences.

EZ

EZ......

They list 86 AA 2520 as top end and 61000 with a 500 whatever.... Of course I had to try this with 480 and 450 Solids.. HEH..... the 480 with 86 gave over 2400 fps and 67000 PSI.. Rifle started talking to me, the 450 gave 2465 or so fps and 65000 PSI... I brought both down 84 with the 450 and it was nice, I think 59000 as I recall, and 82 with the 480 but was still around 64000 or so, dropping down to 80 for next test. AA 2520 is a good powder however for the Lott.. and probably for the Win as well. We will see.....

Have busted a chunk out of the tang area of the stock on the Lott... Has a hairline crack going towards the right side pistol grip, keeping an eye on that.....

Lane..... Actually, RIP knows the history of these things far better than I, but I think Mike basically patterned the old North Forks after the GSC bullets.... Of course todays North Fork is a HUGE improvement over the old design, to the tune of around 20-25% deeper penetration, and all I have tested are 100% straight line penetration as well............ Even before GSC and North Fork was the Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer I believe as well...... Jack Carter.....

Back to the range boys, still shooting................... Just taking a small lunch break.....

Michael

Well...one thing Michael458 has in common with Mike Brady is the hate of Woodleigh softs.

Mike Brady always said: "those things look like pancakes if you shoot an impala with one!" What did Michael458 say just the other day??? Same thing! Even used the word pancake!

I had to shoot a cow that broke her femur the other day for my Dad...took my .500 NE and used up some test loads from the old days.

Here is what a 570 gr .510 Woodleigh looks like shot into a freshly dead cow. The 570 .510 Hornady DGS is what killed her.







Hence the reason you see the CEB's loaded now.

Lane... You gonna get me in even more trouble with the "Woodleigh Cult".... I stay in enough trouble with them already without any help... LOL...... There are some good Woodleigh Softs that I have used in the past, but there are many that you have to know what their max operating velocity is, and some of them are very low.....

We have a North Fork visit this coming weekend... John from North Fork is going to be on our side of the dirt so he is dropping in for the weekend. We look forward to sipping some apple juice and talking bullets. I will probably put him to work doing some pressure tests as well, with North Fork bullets of course......

Michael

Well the above Woodleigh was going ~2150 certainly no faster and the distance was 25 yds.

Good Day on the range..... Got an excellent start with 458 Winchester today...... IMR 8208 is looking extremely good and dead equal to two years ago. Running 450 Solids well over 2300 and running 61000 PSI..... TAC and X Terminator I had to drop down to get below max pressures, TAC running 2260 at 60900 PSI, XTerminator running 2258 fps at 62400 PSI, H-322 running 2255 at 62300 PSI, and Varget running 2209 at 55875 PSI... I don't think I can cram much more Varget in the case to make it worthwhile.. Is a good load however at 2200....

RIP....... 400 North Fork Premium Soft Point... 70/RL 7 2369 fps at 58105 PSI....

This is a pretty close match to the 400 Swift A with 70/RL 7 tested in 2006.. It went like this;
2361 fps at 57598 pSI.......

I don't think there were any issues with RL 7 from 2006 until 2013.... These are about as close as it gets being 7 years apart....... One can have that much difference and MORE in shot to shot...

And you can place a bet that North Fork won't flatten like a pancake............

Michael

Darn good information... This'll put many M70's and M98's well into the modern world of terminal performance with their factory 458 WinMags chamberings!

Move over SAAMI.

MAAMI has arrived: McCourry Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute.

B&M Cartridges: Certified by MAAMI.

Every professional small boy loves his Mammie.

quote:

480s running 2275 to 2300 at 58000

Hubba Hubba...no flies on that at all. Nice.