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 Your not going to forget my A-2230 are you?  It will be intersting to see if it is exactly like X-terminator.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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P.S. Another aquaintance mentioned good results with IMR 3031 and IMR 4198 using conventional 450's in the Win Mag. Can you test these out while shootin? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane....... No, have tags already made to start AA 2230 as soon as it arrives... I don't have the shipment yet? Along with H-4895 in the Lott.. Waiting on those powders to arrive..... As for IMR 3031 and IMR 4198 in 458 Win, I don't think either of those are going to get up to speed with these bullets before we top out in pressure. I am very sure of IMR 4198, but will look at IMR 3031... Oh, we can get to 2100-2150 Maybe before topping 60000 PSI, but not beyond I don't think...... I will look at however and see for sure..... Well, I talked with North Fork this morning, and he is not going to be able to make it. His visit and plan got changed some, so he is not going to be able to drop in for weekend testing... and I just put a quart of "Apple Juice" in the frig for cooling down too! Damn, well I suppose I will just have to sip it alone now....  Let me tell you another reason that we as "Shooters" and "Hunters" should support these two bullet companies!!!! We should support of course for pure selfish reasons, we do get the best terminal performance that can be had in the field with these bullets from North Fork and Cutting Edge. I can tell you this, when I go to the field, its either or and nothing else today. I've been in the field with nearly all the other bullets and have experience with them. I will always use CEB or North Forks in the future, no others need apply........ So, yes, as "Hunters" we should support both companies, if nothing else, pure selfish reasons of our own, we are more successful if we have these bullets along........... But here is another reason, as "Shooters" we should support these guys. John is watching the work we do here, he and I have had conversations about it, along with Dan as well, and both of them express great interest in everything we do, as an outside source of testing, whether its terminals and bullet design, or just simple load data and pressure work we are doing right now. This morning John asked if I needed anything to complete the test work? Meaning any bullets that I might need, he would send. I see that as incredible support for us all as shooters, and being outside the loop of normal practices. Of course all of you know already that I don't run short when it comes to bullets, and I think I have enough of everything North Fork Makes in .458 and .416 that we can accomplish what we need to do. But I really appreciated the support of our efforts...... And we all should show our support in kind.......... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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416 Rigby & Remington is where my interest lies _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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jwp475...... 416 Remington in another couple of weeks I reckon...... I ran 36 different pressure tests today....... That is a few. More 450 gr #13s. Once I establish some loads with the CEB 450s, I will move to the North Fork 450s, carry that data to them. Lane was asking about IMR 4198 and IMR 3031..... At 60/IMR 4198 450 #13 Solid we get to 2168 fps and 61000 PSI. As I thought we top out on pressure before reaching the 2200 mark. However, let me state, this is a fine load, very close numbers. IMR 3031 surprised me somewhat, but I don't work much with IMR 3031 so I am not that familiar with it. I am currently at 2197 fps and 52712 PSI with 70/IMR 3031. Moving to 3rd generation next load will be 72 or 73... So I think its going to fall right in with the majority at or around 2250..... I also tried 60/H-4198 for 2153 fps at 58000 PSI... About as much as you can go practically, very good load as well. RL7 is actually doing very well too... Moving to 3rd gen loads, but 2cd gen has us at 65/RL 7 2218 fps at 57000, will move to 67-68 grs for 3rd gen load. H-4895 came in yesterday. It did extremely good 73/H-4895 for 2285 fps and 60663 PSI... Excellent top end load with 450s..... Brunos sent message, 42 lbs of powder on the way, shipped UPS today. In this is 2 lbs of AA 2230 for testing, and primary for 450s....... We have a very wide selection of successful powders for the 450s so far. I count 7 that take us over 2200 fps and under pressure. How much is enough? 2150 fps will do anything in the world you want to do with either CEB or North Fork 450 Solids............ And then some. Anything else is icing on the cake....... Also, once I get the 450 Solids done, I will carry this over to the 420 #13 NonCON HP........ More efficient if I get a base line for the solids first....... Then add one or two grs for the 420 and move forward..... Started work today with the 370 #13 HP LG and 295 #13 HP LG... Both these are seated deep, add tips, and run the magazine. Not your typical standard bullet, most of this bullet is seated in the case, so one cannot treat it like a standard bullet..... I was way too conservative with my first generation loads, all coming in from 35000 to 40000 PSI with 370s. So I bumped it heavy, and still only running to 45000 to 49000 PSI with most loads, up to 2250-2270 right now. 3rd gen is loaded and ready to test, another fairly large bump to move them up. Same with the 295s way low, bumped hard, now at 2550 or so at 43000-49000 PSI... Both bullets with several different powders, 3rd gen loaded, ready to test. RIP... I MIGHT have something with the 400 North Fork Premium!!!!!! I tried a few other things today, H-4198 did not do it, 67/H-4198 for 2377 fps and 60000 PSI... The end. However, I just happened to try some RL 10X.... 70/RL 10X 2368 fps 53288 PSI.. Lots of room to move here! Just might top 2400 with RL 10X and stay under pressure???? It seems I have done a lot, but there is so much more left to do. Soon as I think I have enough info listed, I will start posting it on the B&M site, but I just don't have enough right now in 458 Winchester to do it. I have way too many loose ends to start that just yet... Getting there..... But takes some time.... I do have H-4895 Loaded in 458 Lott to test, and probably get to that tomorrow....... Both 4895s are doing very well in these cartridges........ Later........... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Certified by MAAMI: "I MIGHT have something with the 400 North Fork Premium!!!!!! I tried a few other things today, H-4198 did not do it, 67/H-4198 for 2377 fps and 60000 PSI... The end. However, I just happened to try some RL 10X.... 70/RL 10X 2368 fps 53288 PSI.. Lots of room to move here! Just might top 2400 with RL 10X and stay under pressure????"  Question: Is that a 24"-barreled .458 WinMag? Just realized the Dakota M76 .458 Lott that cracked and popped a chunk of plastic near the tang ... must be one of those MPI stocks that had to be "boat-builded" into conformation. Probably popped a piece of Bondo from under the paint. MPI used to be the only synthetic stock one could find for a Dakota ... Question: Paint an MPI stock real pretty and what do you have? Answer:  | |||
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RIP...... Yes, 24 inch Win M70 458 Winchester....... As for the lott stock... HEH... Yep probably MPI???? POS... Might have to try some RL 10X 400 NF in 458 B&M as well!!!!!!! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Old IMR 3031...it just refuses to die. Write it off and what does it do...comes back as a contender in .458 Win Mag. Funny thing is that we (me included) say with modern powders...the .458 Win Mag is fine...but...IMR 3031 has been around longer than the .458 WM has!!! Winchester was was trying to replicate .450 NE...well the .450 traditionally shot 480 grainers. Seems like Winchester should have just loaded some 480 gr bullets with 3031 and the .458 WM would have replicated the 450 NE easily and reliably from the get go??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Yes, IMR 3031, around forever and then some...... I managed 72/IMR 3031 to 2253 fps at 58014 PSI.... One could bump a little, but it is a good load....... Just FYI.... Both 458 Lott and 458 Winchester are 24 inch barrels...... In 458 Lott I am using Hornady Brass... 458 Winchester I am using Winchester Brass..... Fed 215s throughout all the tests...... Now, as we progress, and I have most of the load data complete that I am going to do, then we might try some loads with different brass and different primers just to see what we get, but that will be after all major data is completed. Ran 3rd generation loads with the 370s and 295s in 458 Winchester today.. There will be a 4th generation on several loads, but not likely to be a 5th, I will be close to top end on the 4th I think. Then I will start with other bullets and just work my way through it........ I did some more 458 Lott data....... H-4895 came in, did some work with it today, added more to the 420 NonCons and 450 North Forks too...... The 480 #13 Solid with 77/H-4895 2304 fps 59661 PSI..... Currently working on the 450s and H-4895...... For me, Lott or Winchester, these 450s are all one would ever need. I would not even bother with heavier bullets in either cartridge..... Much more to come............ Maybe first of the week I will have enough to do an upload to the B&M site........... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Agreed! But my favorite load in .458WinMag, back in the day, was 71.0 grains of IMR-3031 with a Hornady 500-grain RNSP. A commonly championed load back then. It did right at 2150 fps in my Remington M700 BDL .458 WinMag with 24" barrel, and it bowled a half-ton Alaska cow moose over at about 100 yards, even while shedding the core entirely. The jacket and the two main chunks of core, all three breaking a rib on the offside of the chest. Three broken ribs and a chest full of tatters and blood. Bang-flop. That was an early example of unperfected "Non-NonCon" performance, i.e., "Con" performance.  Hodgdon Benchmark Extreme is as close to IMR-3031 as you can get with a better powder. Benchmark is to IMR-3031 as M70 is to M700.  | |||
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RIP......
I am not so sure? I am having an issue with the 480/450 #13s.... Not Stable at 25 yds? I know that the 458 B&Ms have 1:14, I did all the testing in 458 B&M with the 480s and love them, absolutely 100% stable.. good to go. I can't imagine what in the world is the deal with this 458 Win, sideways 480s at 25? 450s are fantastic.....???? Not only that, but if the twist was slower, I know a lot of guys shooting the 480s in doubles and everything else, they are not having issues, and I am sure the doubles have slow twists.... So I don't know? Makes zero sense to me?
Not corrected velocity, chrono is 18 ft... to avoid blasts... So that is a fair distance, actual muzzle velocity will indeed be some higher, and good point.... I never correct to MV, as much as I do here that would begin to be time consuming..... I am not so much thinking differences in average factory brass, as I am brass that I used to use for 458 Lott. Back in the day, before Hornady brass, I used to make 458 Lott from 375 HH and then later 416 REmington. I always noticed that the 416 Rem brass seemed to be top of the line, I think handles more pressure than the Hornady brass.... So I really wanted to take a closer look at that at some point. I still have all that old brass, good to go. Then even more telling is some primer work, similar to what I did a couple of years ago. Then I found that some primers could indeed take you over the max pressures, than what was originally loaded and tested.... We want to look at that, especially with some of these 59000 to 62000 PSI loads...... Something of great interest I think...... The 500 MDM tested extremely good with Benchmark a couple of years ago. I only had a lb or so, and have nearly nothing right now. I have been searching the normal supplies for a 8lb keg of it. I think it will test well, and I can also use it in other applications perhaps even 500 B&M...... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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What, exactly, makes Benchmark a "better" powder than IMR-3031??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane I believe it's because the Benchmark powder is a 'temperature insensitive' powder so very little to no difference in velocity and POA/POI between freezing and your Texas summer temperatures. At least that's what the ADI website indicates.  Haven't used it so no personal experience to discuss...Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Personally...from my experience...I have always thought the temp thing has been way overblown. Or...maybe it is because my load workup usually takes place in 90+ degree weather and I just don't notice the drop in cool temps. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I understand what you're saying... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Yes, Lane, Jim has it. It is the temperature stable powder with the same burn rate as IMR-3031. Tiny-grained extruded powder that meters great too. I use it in everything from .224-cal to .510-cal. 115 grains of it with 450-grainer does 2836 fps in the 500 Mbogo. Some of the Nitro Express and Nitro For BPE loaders who use IMR-3031 with filler would do well to switch to same charge of Benchmark Extreme. It will have about one-quarter the temperature variance in velocity, compared to IMR-3031. A well regulated rifle appreciates a consistent load. I swear by it. | |||
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RIP.... Yes, the barrel has to be slugged, and twist determined on this to get to the bottom of the issue. I don't think its a loose barrel, or it would be having some effect on other bullets as well, and right now that just has not shown up with anything else. I am having exactly the same issue with the Lott that was built. I am thinking the twists are very slow on both of these guns. In the case of the Lott, I intend to do some test work with one of my Winchesters just to do a check on it. I will also do the same with the 458 Winchester as well, I am not sure I have another 24 inch Winchester however? I know I have a 22, or maybe two 22s......????? Have to do some digging around..... But regardless, even with a 22 inch I can tell what is what there........ Data carries on, honest I tried to do some yesterday, but have such a bad sinus infection going on I could not complete it........ M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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FROM TERMINALS........
Now I ask 458 Boys..... How much more bullet do you need? This 450 CEB and the new profile 450 from North Fork, never a need for anything more in any 458 caliber rifle period............ Moving on, I am back in business as of late this afternoon. Finished the remaining strings and tests I had loaded in 458 Winchester from Saturday, and added the first 450s with AA 2230..... Big powder order came in, 2 lbs of AA 2230 along with it, special for this test work....... So ran the first gen just a couple of hours ago now. 72/AA 2230 450 #13 Solid 2198 fps at 52000 PSI, next one in the morning with 74/AA 2230, once established upper end of around 60000 PSI, then will take to the other bullets suitable, including North Forks..... Probably tomorrow I will have enough data to publish on the B&M site for you......... Later........ M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I am trying to picture how you break both front legs and put a hole through the heart with the same bullet. Can anyone explain? Not saying it didn't happen, just can't picture it. 465H&H | |||
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I have a series of photos in them you can clearly see both legs broken, poking out at extreme angles, not possible if not broken. Elephant dead DOA to be precise....... I was not there, can't say anymore...... Point of fact, 450s are more than enough to do the job, any job asked of them............ M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Thanks for taking this in-depth research and experimentation. I love my .458 WM and will be watching closely, neighbor. | |||
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No worries...... I hope to tie up some loose ends this morning on the 458 Winchester, and then actually put up some results on the B&M site. By no means completed, but I think I have enough data to justify putting something up for you guys to look at. Also will update the 458 Lott...... Then I suppose its get a gage on the 416 Remington and start getting it ready........... I felt this was something that needed to be done, get you guys some updates with some of these wild ass bullets we have now, and at least give you something to work with, start out with, and get your own stuff going....... So far the project has eat up over 500 rounds the last couple of weeks........ HEH HEH........ M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Elephant in a long stride may have one front leg to the rear/beside the heart, and the other front leg ahead of the heart. A quartering shot from the rear could break trailing, front-leg bone of the on-side, pass through heart/great vessels, and break off-side, leading, front-leg bone. Or if the elephant were squatting for a circus trick, or trying to stomp a nuisance-hunter with all four feet at once, with both front legs shifted rearward for balance, or to apply as much trampling to the grease spot as possible, a straight-on broadside could do the trick. A. North Fork 400-grainers at top speed in the .458 WinMag:  B. CEB 420-grainers with Raptor Tip in the .458 WinMag: Maybe even better if they go fast enough and have enough BC to shoot flatter for varmints and such. I reserve judgement until all the results are in. C. Either CEB or North Fork 450-grain FN/FP solid for breaking both front legs of an elephant on a heart shot, and such. | |||
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RIP Concur on all points.......... A. North Fork 400s.... OLD CAN RL10X..... 2360 fps or so with 70/RL 10X 53000 PSI.... The other day or week. Yesterday NEW CAN RL 10X (I had it out loading something else, used it for 458 too) 72/RL 10X.... 2375 fps at 50000 PSI??????????? Raises some questions in my mind?????? So right now, in 15 minutes, I am back on the range again and have two test loads, NEW CAN RL 10X with 72 grs, and OLD CAN RL 10X with 72 grs, and NEW CAN RL 10X with 74 grs.... Checking Keg against Keg with same load of 72, then stepping up with New Can at 74 grs. We are going to make it over 2400 with ease, with RL 10X and stay under pressure easy. But another case of RL 10X being different from one 5 lb can to the next. Lesson? Know your can of RL 10X. I like RL 10X, it has many many applications here, however, I always try to buy 10+ lbs at a time, and then mix it all together, and then LEARN YOUR LOT of RL 10X..... And this is the exact same as RL 15 as well!!!!!!!!! So far these are the only two powders I know of that show so much difference from one can to the next.... even within the same lot #s. I don't even look at Lot #s anymore, seems to mean very little I try to learn MY LOT until I run out and have to mix a new one............... B. CEB 420.... Hmmmmm.... Close 2362 so far but this is still a big bullet..... Same bullet as 450 Solid..... Just with the HP... Different powders make it tick... But, I am not anywhere close to finished with it yet.......... IMR 8208 looking strong. C. YES.......... 100%............... I just happened to be in, had to check things and saw your post, so now, back to the range, to see if I can get some more 458 Win data............ Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Ron, Thanks for posting that link, I'd forgotten about that website. Michael, Do you think the 450gr .500 NF FPS would give similar results? Happy Thanksgiving to All! Getting on a plane shortly to spend Thanksgiving with my Mom back in Arkansas so likely will be out of contact until late this evening. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, I am very impressed with the 450 gr .500 caliber North Fork FPS.... This is the new nose profile Solid, and I believe it will give similar results. Off the range for today.... Good results with 450 #13 Solid and AA 2230.... I am on the fly, data has not been entered yet, and will try to get that later this afternoon. I can tell you 77 grs 2311 fps and 59000 PSI....... Which is very good... I will next carry this to the 420 #13 HP at probably 78/AA 2230, and then to the 450 North Forks. Now, when you get to the North Forks, you gotta cut that load down a few grs as they run a tad more pressure, mostly because I seat them deeper than the #13s and pressure runs up a bit, normally 2-3 grs less. I will probably start the 450 North Forks off with 74/AA 2230 and see how that works in...... The AA 2230 equals velocity basically with the IMR 8208.... But IMR 8208 is running I think about 60000 PSI< and the AA 2230 59000 PSI, so a tad less pressure on average it seems. Both of these are the only ones so far to top over 2300 fps and stay under pressure with the #13s........... Just a tid bit of info..... Hopefully will tune in a little bit later...... I got an incredible safari report today from one of my B&M guys, a 458 B&M guy returned from Tanzania about a week ago. He used the same combination of bullets I did in July with my 458 B&M. 250 Socom for plains game, 450/420 #13s for the big stuff, and his success was 110%....... I hope that he will post a report for us at least on the terminal thread, but I am going to leave that up to him. He is an incredibly great fellow and I think the world of him........ But I must leave the report to him........... But rest assured any doubters out there, you can do ANYTHING you ever need or desire to do with these bullets that we are working with right now....... ANd then some........... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Jim, Happy Turkey Day. I am in upstate NY and they closed The Fort today due to a few inches of snow! They are acting like Southerners up here! I am flying home to Kentucky tomorrow if they let planes fly. I shall arise at 2 AM Turkey Day to start heading that way. So I have a few hours to kill ... while The Cat is in the lab, The Mice will play, waiting for The Cheese. In other words: I don't have the .500/450-grain North Fork load data for the 12.7x68mm Magnum (49-10), but I do have those bullets stockpiled at home. Consider the excellent performance of the .458/450gr CEB solid in passing through elephant: The North Fork .458/450gr is hard-enough copper and it is a little shorter than the CEB brass bullet. Shorter bullet, more stable is a plus for the North Fork, and slightly less hard copper is a minus, but at only 2300 fps or so, it should be hard enough. Both have excellent nose shape. Call it a wash. Both good. Now we know for a non-expanding, flat nose solid, increasing velocity (hence momentum) can overcome the lack of SD (bullet weight) of the bullet in question. Consider variable resistance with velocity a wash for now, because velocities don't differ much between the bullets compared, as they are passing through the elephant. Cross-sectional area (XSA) of the bullet does contribute unequally to a comparison of the .500 to the .458. Gotta consider that, a la "Penetration Index (PI)," by dividing the bullet momentum (Mo) by XSA: PI = Mo/XSA The 450-grain solid in our 12x68mm Magnum can surely be driven to 2600 fps. (We do move the .500/430-gr CEB MTH along at 2651 fps with no pressure signs and excellent accuracy.) The 450-grain solid in our .458 WinMag is going to be limited to about 2300 fps. Bore law. .458/450gr at 2300 fps: Mo = 147.9 lbs-ft XSA = 0.16475 sq.in. PI = 897.7 .500/450gr at 2600 fps: Mo = 162.3 lbs-ft XSA = 0.19635 sq.in. PI = 826.6 Close, but no cigar, unless that .458/450-grainer was considerably slower than 2300 fps. The actual benchmark PI will require actual velocity to calculate with. ACTUAL load used by 450 NE: .458/450gr at 2210 fps, The Double-Leg-Heart-Breaker Mo = 142.1 lbs-ft XSA = 0.16475 sq.in. PI = 862.3 Still no cigar for the .500/450 vs the .458/450 cigar smoker. Consider the .500/500gr CEB brass FN solid "DGBR" at a verified 2561 fps in my rifles, 7285 ft-lbs KE: Mo = 182.9 lbs-ft XSA = 0.19635 sq.in. PI = 931.5 CIGAR!!! That ought to break both legs. The .500/500-gr FN is probably better than the .500/450gr FN solid for elephant, they fall pretty close on either side of that documented .458/450-grainer. It's close, all might be double-leg-heart-breakers. Now the irrelevant: .458/450gr SD = .306 .500/450gr SD = .257 .500/500gr SD = .286 Let us see what Cheese The Cat dragged in from The Lab (above) while I was calculating and typing ... | |||
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 OK..... I have 458 Winchester Data available on the B&M website, Additional Research Page, scroll down until you see it. 11272013.pdf document................. Direct link.... http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...tional-Research.html How about some feedback on those that download the document... Any issues understanding, reading, questions... ANYTHING.... Let me know.......... Of course, there are miles to go before we sleep, and much left to do.. Work is no where near complete, I just felt I had enough now that you guys could start looking, thinking, and making suggestions, or maybe requests.... Glad to help if I can.... RIP.... 400 North Fork Premium Soft NEWS FLASH 458 Winchester 2013 RL 10X Version..... 400 NF Soft 75/RL 10X 2013 version 2453 fps 60129 PSI.......... I ran a RL 10X test today.... 2012 Version vs 2013 Version...... 2013 runs 2000-2500 PSI Less pressure, but maintains same velocity as the 2012 RL 10X Version..... If using same amounts of powder. Or now it takes about 2 more grs of 2013 RL 10X to do the same job as 2 grs less of 2012 RL 10X...... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Mighty nice Cheese to digest: From MAAMI: "RIP.... 400 North Fork Premium Soft NEWS FLASH 458 Winchester 2013 RL 10X Version..... 400 NF Soft 75/RL 10X 2013 version 2453 fps 60129 PSI.........." Minor flatulence ("who cut the cheese") here: "I ran a RL 10X test today.... 2012 Version vs 2013 Version...... 2013 runs 2000-2500 PSI Less pressure, but maintains same velocity as the 2012 RL 10X Version..... If using same amounts of powder. Or now it takes about 2 more grs of 2013 RL 10X to do the same job as 2 grs less of 2012 RL 10X......" We can live with some minor powder farts!  I sure missed the old RL-12 since they discontinued it. Looks like the original RL-10X has turned into "Newest RL-10X" that is a lot like the old RL-12. Alliant Reloder and Hodgdon Extreme powders do me just fine. | |||
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Doc M, I have printed out the 5-page pdf of .458 Win Mag data to file in the .458WinMag binder at home. Thanks for this very significant contribution to society, again. I am also starting a "CIP, SAAMI, and MAAMI" folder on the 'puter to store all the pressure data for quick reference. I have found it is a lot easier to look up stuff at the B&M web site than it is to search here at ar.com. I just realized that.  | |||
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RL powders can be very good, BUT, they are sometimes Bofors powders that did not make the cut for use by Norma (burning rate out of spec, etc.). Most of us have had the experience of having to adjust a tried and true recipe with a new lot. I guess one answer is to buy 8# kegs versus 1# cans.  | |||
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Michael, I just downloaded the 458 Win mag data and found it very easy to read. The formatting is a little off, splitting some loads over separate pages but I'm sure that that will be fixed when you get more data filled in. Thanks for the information and I'm eagerly waiting for more.  Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Michael, Please post those pics. 465H&H | |||
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Sorry 465HH, I cannot do that, I do not have permission to do so here.... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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RIP...... I was impressed with the RL 10X being able to take the 400 to that level. I would not have thought it possible to do so. RL 10X has a lot of excellent applications, and I burn quite a bit here in various cartridges with certain bullets. When Layne Simpson and I were doing the pressure work, and such with the 50 B&M Alaskans, we used 4 powders with the 500 Hornady FN Soft. Layne's rifle is a 22 inch gun, which I did everything I could for him to not do that and keep it at 18 inches, but Layne said he did not want a long pistol! HEH HEH.... Anyway, we used H-4198, RL7, H-322 and RL 10X with the 500 gr bullet. With the same loads, Layne gained 13 fps in his rifle with H-4198 56/H-4198 in 18 gave me 1842, in 22 Layne got 1855. With 58/RL 7 18" give 1805 and 22" give 1876 fps, a bit of a gain there. 61/H-322 18" 1814 fps and 22" 1812 fps, nothing gained at all with the extra length. But, when we went to 62/RL 10X 18 inches 1834 fps and 22 inches a whopping 1947 fps, a gain of 113 fps. Layne was happy with this. RL 10X burned in such a manner that it was able to produce more fps without increasing pressures. In our 458 Winchester study, RL 10X to me come in top powder for the 370 gr CEB #13 HP LG.... Now LG stands for Lever Gun, for those that do not know this. We bolt gun guys can take that bullet, seat it to the top groove in 458 Winchester, crimp in, and add a Talon Tip, all this will work in the magazine. Now, you see we cannot run this bullet as fast as one might a conventional 350 or even 400, the reason is much of this bullet is seated into the case, taking up a good bit of case capacity. But, I promise you, what you loose on the FRONT END, you gain on the REAR END... Meaning, that even if you seat the bullet out, add more powder, but cannot run the Talon Tip, at 50 Yards you will still hit with more IMPACT VELOCITY, even starting out as much as a 100 fps slower by seating deep! But, back to the point, with this bullet, RL 10X is giving over 2400 fps, and staying at 55000 PSI, one could increase a bit here if desired. Most of the other powders suitable for this are getting to 2400+ but at the cost of 59000 to 60000 PSI or so..... Choosing the right powder is important to get the most performance, with the least pressures........ I love blending different powders, which I am a novice thus far, but man I am getting some of the most incredible traces with some of the blends in 500 MDM, far closer, tighter, and more perfect than either powder alone..... but yet I have not been able to increase upper end performance. Getting cleaner more even burns and better consistency with some blends. But not worth all the effort if I can't increase top ends and lower pressures. But this is extremely time consuming as well. I have years of work to do in this area. Very interesting to me.... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Correct Lawndart... I try to always by larger amounts, sometimes we can't like availability of this and that in todays market..... But I always try to mix it when I get it, label it by date. For instance, buy two 8# cans, I pour them into something larger, mix them together, and put them back away in their proper cans, date them. This way, I have 16lbs that are going to be exactly the same from that point on until gone. If all I can get is 1# cans, get what I can, pour all of them into one larger container, mix, and label.... Currently I have 10#s of RL 10X coming, and probably 7-8#s on hand, I intend to mix the lot of it and re label it giving me a consistent lot..... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Frank..... Thanks, I can fix that, and normally do by just seeing where the pages break, then moving everything up or down until everything breaks correct. I did not take the time to do this on this first upload, sorry... Will try to keep breaks a little cleaner on future uploads............. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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