The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 458 Lott--458 Winchester--416 Remington, New Data ProjectGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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BadBoy...... We have done terminals on the Hydros, and also for doubles have tested them for barrel strains. And I have some on hand in .458, I think 450s as I recall, and maybe a few 400s.... Hydro is a good bullet, it works like a CPS, it creates good trauma and deep penetration. It cannot penetrate as deep as a true solid, because of its CPS status. John at North Fork gave the absolute best definition of a CPS that I have heard or come up with since. John says that a CPS.. CUP POINT has a much larger frontal surface area, compared in example a North Fork Solid with 68% meplat. As example only, lets say a CPS has a surface area equal to 80% meplat... We know that a 80% meplat does not penetrate as deep as a 68% meplat, merely because of surface area. 80% still penetrates dead straight, and 80% meplat creates more trauma to tissue or medium as well. SO the CPS designs actually fool the test medium, or tissue, into thinking the bullet is bigger than it actually is......... However, from the start I promised not to get sidetracked with other bullets, CEB and North Forks only............. Lawndart...... Thanks for the reminder, honest I am not up on who does what powder for who, and who gets what...... And that explains some of these discrepancies in RL 15 and RL 10X we have seen just on this project. But I also remind us that I have a pretty big discrepancy now in AA 2230 from 2011 to these last two#s I just received, and I also believe with this latest X Terminator. I am quite sure its not just the RLs that we are seeing this with. I remember years ago I would see differences in some of the IMRs I was using, in particular IMR 4320 at the time. I think we should all beware that regardless of lot#s, we need to take particular care when changing to even a different can of powder!!!!!!! I know its aggravating as hell but we just can't assume one can is the same as the next in any of them...... This is why I always keep some of the bigger empties, and mix up all new batches and label them by date I mixed. At least until that batch runs dry I am good to go...... Not sure if I mentioned yet, but I have a gage on one of my 416 Remingtons now, it looks good, but have not hooked up yet to see if I have a connection, I don't see any issues so should be good to go....... Have lots of real work to do, in fact a company meeting this morning, so that ties up today completely, best I can probably do this week is get the 416 set up and all the numbers plugged in, start actually testing next week....... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Mike- Maybe I missed that but have you tried the 450 North Forks with H4895? Many thanks! | |||
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I think I got sidetracked....... I see on 458 Win data I did H-4895 with the 450 #13s, but did not with the North Forks.... And I think the same on the Lott data as well. However, I do have test loads on the bench in 458 Lott North Fork 450s with H-4895, just have not got to them as I got sidetracked on the blending I think.... HEH....... I will make a note, get that by next week.... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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The Lott with 450 NF and H4895 would be very much appreciated, thank you very much. At least in my rifles the published loads seem to be very mild. | |||
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AIU, I was very lucky with my first QL work and Michael's loadings, velocity and pressure wise, as the QL data base's powder data. So I just adjusted the weighting factor so that my QL velocity and pressure matched Michael's results (after setting the proper barrel length and actual case overflow case capacity). As far as the Weighting Factor used, I just adjusted it so that my loads matched his. Once set it did work with multiple powders. Unfortunately, one laptop and two QL updates later the exact settings were all over the map relating to Michael's work. Unfortunately Michael wasn't doing barrel pressure work simultaneous with chronograph work so I wasn't able to adjust the powder performance to match his work. So my QL, along with Michael's (we were using the same QL update version) might match velocity but the indicated pressure levels could be 5000psi higher than actual. I think we basically decided in some email messages to ignor the QL high pressure level as the actual pressure would be safe. Today due to Michael's simultaneous chronograph and barrel pressure testing everything needs to be adjusted as I noted in the long response. Bottom line, QL is a tool that doesn't replace pressure testing and chronograph equipment. Hope that helps. Also hope it's intelligible as I was talking on the phone while typing it.  Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I took the liberty to copy and paste my post on terminals this morning here, as I believe it is of import here too.......................... From Terminals this morning.......
You simply must now dispose of all your 458 Winchesters, as they are useless when compared to 458 Lott and the Heavy for Caliber Ammo from Norma. Please find the closest trash bin and deposit them accordingly..................... http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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What a crock of manure. I don't expect much out of Wieland...but I would expect Don to. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane..... From the way the POS was written, I think it was more Wee Wee throwing names instead of actual support of.... At least from the article, and I quote the last sentence.... "But if you don't believe me, you should believe Don Heath. No one knows more about it." And of course a nice photo of various Norma Ammo....... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Don advocates the 9.3 X 62 . You would think if he liked big heavy bullets...he would shoot something else. I suspect what Don likes best is his Norma paycheck. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Exactly.................. 100% Spot on......... http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Weiland is showing off his lack of knowledge in this area _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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It's getting to where I read Terry's stuff just for the comedy. The clash of haughty tone with ignorance in his writing is just hilarious.  | |||
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I think that we all want to find the bullet or bullets that best serve the purpose for our intended use. Obviously, that bullet selection may well vary depending on what animal species and in what habitat conditions we intended to hunt them. The solid that you use to hunt a tuskless in a herd in the thick Zambezi Jesse, may well be different than the solid you use to hunt a monstrous Botswana bull in the Okavango swamp. The most important criteria you can have in making this selection is objectivity. It seems to be a human trait to think that we have found the ultimate answer and then poo poo any other opinion. That is a definite lack of objectivity. A closed mind will miss the possibility of improving bullet design or fully understanding the capabilities of current designs. I have experimented with the use of heavier than normal bullets on elephant. I looked at penetration distance and hitting power. I used normal weight bullets of 480 to 500 grains in .458 to .475 all at 2,150 fps. In addition, I also used the 550 grain Woodleigh RN in the 458 Lott at 2,150 fps. With these bullets I took over 25 elephants and traced penetration on most of the shots. The bullets used included Woodleigh RN solids and Hydros, North Fork FN, CEB #13 FN, Hornady DGS and Trophy Bonded FN solids. On frontal head shots on elephant The NF and CEB's penetrated to just behind the shoulder blade, the DGS to the front of the shoulder blade and the Woodleigh RNs to the front third of the neck. The 550 Woodleighs penetrated far enough to get into the stomach contents. Further than any of the other bullets whether FN or RN. On angled head shots shots or straight down through the top of the head, none exited except the 550 grain Woodleighs from the Lott and they all exited. I wonder how many of you that are poo pooing the use of heavy for caliber bullets have ever tried them on elephant. I'll bet, few if any. Now you are welcome to doubt these results but if you do try them, I guarantee that you will verify them. Penetration is one thing but stopping power is an entirely different can of worms. We really don't have a way to compare stopping power in the field that would meet scientific standards and we must rely on the shooters judgement. A 450 grain FN bullet from a 458 Win has more than enough penetration for almost any use but does it have the same amount of stopping power as a heavier bullet? It doesn't make sense to me that dropping bullet weight and increasing velocity is the way to go to increase stopping power. If that were the case then a 378 Weatherby or a 416 Rigby would be a better caliber to stop an elephant charge than a 500 Nitro. I doubt that many here would agree with that statement. 465H&H | |||
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465H&H, Early on Michael demonstrated that with same caliber bullets fired at the same velocity a heavier bullet will 'out penetrate' a lighter weight bullet. And it held true for both expanding and non-expanding bullets. He also noted it was not necessarily a fair comparison. To run a 550gr Woodleigh FMJ at the same velocity you're running 480gr or 500gr bullets means you're running the 550gr bullet at a higher pressure level. Is that a fair comparison? I don't believe so yet that is the comparison usually given. I believe Michael demonstrated that using the scenario of same caliber bullet in the same same cartridge but using the 'same pressure levels' with the heavy and lighter weight bullets pretty much eliminated any advantage the heavier bullet had when fired in the 'same velocity' scenario... If need be I reckon Michael could demonstrate this using the 500 B&M or the 500 MDM as he possesses CEB Safari Solids in both 500gr and 550gr weights. He could probably through in the new 450gr NF FPS which has a very similar nose shape although constructed in copper rather than brass. Heck he may already have the completed chronograph/bullet box comparisons in the lab... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Cap, The 500 grain .458 bullets were run through a 458 Win and the 550 grain through a Lott. I don't have pressure data for those loads but both loads appeared to be right at upper safe pressure limits. Pressure with any bullet is highly dependent on case capacity. What we are discussing is terminal bullet performance. What ever the pressure as long as it is safe is immaterial to the discussion - NO? 465H&H | |||
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Running the heavier than standard bullet in the same case as the lighter than standard bullet is the only way yo get a comparison, otherwise we're just not comparing apples to apples... You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life... | |||
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H, That's the conundrum. Referencing your 458 WinMag and 458 Lott with the respective bullet weights, then yes I'd say the pressure levels in each were pretty darn close. Use the same caliber and same-shape same-construction bullets of different weights as the criteria will have the typical result of the heavier weight bullet out penetrating the lighter weight bullet when they are fired at the same velocity. This of course this presumes the specified velocity is within the bullets' performance envelope as established by the manufacturer. Your post also referenced the penetration depth of the 450gr weight CEB and NF flat-nose CNC machined solids in comparison the the 550gr weight Woodleigh FMJ convential construction bullet. My comment regarding 'same pressure' relates to the discussion as follows, "I believe the typical advantage of the heavier weight bullet will be overcome by the lighter weight CEB and NF solids when all bullets are fired at the same pressure level from the same cartridge case." I believe my scenario (same caliber, same cartridge case, same pressure level) to be as valid a comparison for determining the ultimate penetration ability of each bullet as your criteria. Especially when using bullets of difference weight and construction with different performance envelopes. Am I looking at this issue incorrectly? Or am I just looking at it through a different side of the glass? Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Nor do I believe all the rubbish that is written about the .458WM.. C'mon these stories we are still hearing are all 50 YEARS OLD for crying out loud. If someone told you that they drove a Chevrolet 50 YEARS AGO and had a bad experience, and to this day they still refused to drive one, you'd laugh in their face! I mean how many people buy a .30-06 for hunting elk and before they EVEN FIRE A SHOT have it re chambered for .30-06 Ackley improved? It's just absurd.. For every person who bags the .458 there is someone who defends it, Finn Aagaard, Jim Charmichael etc.. Jack Lott was a fan and never questioned it's stopping power and all he wanted the Lott to do was get 2150fps with a 500gn bullet without compression. This is what the .458WM will do today without any drama's. The Lott getting trampled story seems to have grown and changed during the years. He even admitted that him getting charged was his fault - not the .458's. He gut shot the buffalo! I don't get why people will go on about new Kevlar stocks, improved scopes that has glow in the dark recticles, superior bullet designs but will still live in an era that was 50 years ago when it comes to the .458.. You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life... | |||
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BBM, Remember that your comparison requires the lighter weight bullets to maintain integrity at the resulting higher velocity. The Woodleigh traditional construction FMJ bullets cap out at a max 2200fps in their performance envelope. Seeing as how they're designed for African DG, I'd say 2200fps has to be pretty close to a MV max as one has little control over just how close that shot may be into an irate elephant. I reckon if buff is the sole target one could push the MV up slightly if figuring on a 35yd minimum distant shot. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I believe most individuals tend to forget the 458 WinMag was designed to match the performance of factory 450 NE ammunition. Just a stupid decision on the part of Winchester to load a 510gr FMJ bullet rather than the 480gr weight FMJ bullet used in the 450 NE. Regardless, the 510gr 458 WinMag gave almost identical velocity as the 480gr 450 NE when both are fired from a 24" barrel. Best of my recollection the 458 WinMag detracting comments all drill back to factory ammunition poorly stored multiple seasons in Africa. I don't recollect - presuming accurate delivery of the shot(s) - ever reading about properly maintained factory 458 WinMag ammunition not performing properly in the field. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Cap, Your question was "My comment regarding 'same pressure' relates to the discussion as follows, "I believe the typical advantage of the heavier weight bullet will be overcome by the lighter weight CEB and NF solids when all bullets are fired at the same pressure level from the same cartridge case." I believe my scenario (same caliber, same cartridge case, same pressure level) to be as valid a comparison for determining the ultimate penetration ability of each bullet as your criteria. Especially when using bullets of difference weight and construction with different performance envelopes." They are then not equal as the lighter bullet will have to have a higher velocity to be at the same pressure level as the heavier bullet. So as you said, You are looking at it through a differenrt side of the glass. I don't think either way of looking at it is more right or wrong. What we do know is that increasing bullet weight normally gives more stopping power bang for the buck than increasing velocity. Although when we are dealing with FN solids we have so much penetration that in my opinion, we can usually afford to give some up if necessary to increase stopping power. 465H&H | |||
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You're right in what you say, I guess where I was heading with my point is if one were to load up say the NF 450gn (where they'll keep their integrity at the higher MV) at 2250-2300fps against the 550gn Woodleigh at 2050-2100fps, where at that speed, bullet integrity won't also be questioned. These are pretty average attainable speeds for the .458WM. But Michael 458 has already done this and his tests conclusively showed that the new generation mono's at a lighter weight and faster velocity seem to penetrate better than the heavier projectiles like the ones made by Woodleigh, Hornady, etc.. People choose their own experts, but Michael458 has convinced me enough to shelve the 550gn Weldcore's that I bought for my Buffalo/ Scrub Bull hunt next year and swap them for 450 Mono's.. GB, Russ. You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life... | |||
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Cap, I believe you misunderstood my first post above. I haven't used any 450 grain bullets in the 458. I wasn't comparing penetration among the various 450 and 550 grain .458 bullets. Only with the 480 and 500 grain bullets in the specified calibers. 465H&H | |||
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H, It is an interesting situation and it has been good conversation especially considering the bad weather hitting much of the country currently. Take care and be safe... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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H, No no. I understood that in your post. All is good.  My reference to the 450 gr was relating to the 450gr .500 NF FPS that Michael could test against the 500gr and 550gr CEB Safari Solids from either his 500 B&M or 500 MDM. My test of same cartridge with different bullets at same pressure level. Russ, We're on the same page; Michael and Sam convinced me of the value of a properly designed monometal FN solid a few years ago. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Russ, We're on the same page; Michael and Sam convinced me of the value of a properly designed monometal FN solid a few years ago. [/QUOTE]I just wish I had spoken to him BEFORE I bought the 550 Woodleigh's... coz they cost me plenty! Lol! You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life... | |||
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Negative, in my opinion, my observations, and the animals I have seen taken, and have taken, which includes elephant, buffalo, and hippo............ H--What you discount totally and completely is the large flat meplat hitting with the authority it does. I have seen the large flat meplats, 65% and better, knock the living crap out of all of the heavies, I have seen absolutely no effect from any round nose solid I have ever shot. Drill a tiny hole and nothing more. After what I have seen, what those around me have seen, witnessed and shot themselves, and every single one to a man concurs that a 65% meplat solid hits every animal they have ever seen far harder than any round nose fmj or solid, then something has to give!!!!!!! Now I know you are stuck in nostalgia and will only shoot an elephant in the head, however, I have seen and shot elephant in the heart with both round nose and flat nose solids, and there is one hell of a big difference in destruction of that all important organ. RN Solids drill a tiny...LESS THAN CALIBER HOLE while these big flat nose solids make a hole much larger than caliber, and does not close up after it passes! There is no way on this planet, and you will never live long enough to tell me that the opposite is true! I don't care if you shoot a 1000 gr round nose solid compared to a 450 gr flat nose solid, I will take the 450 FN every single time and time again............... Being inherently unstable to begin with, the RN may or may not track straight in terminal penetration as well. While you have had a few good luck runs, that nose profile cannot be relied on 100% of the time to do what is asked of it. Sometimes Yes, Sometimes No............. Just in July I shot a very good bull elephant, heart shot as that is the shot he gave me, I am not nostalgic, 450 gr #13 Solid, 458 B&M, just a tad over 2200 fps! Nice big hole in the heart, 30-40 yds or so, stone dead........ Of course the bullet kept on going, exited broadside and may still be going around Zimbabwe orbit. But then you say "TOO MUCH PENETRATION".... You can't ever have too much penetration..... Yes, I know, shoot the elephant behind the one you shot! HEH.... Excellent Idea I say, that's what I call "EFFICIENT" Two For One!!!!!!!!! We have plenty of elephant stories of incredible success with 450 gr Proper Designed FN solids from North Fork and CEB.......... All the same story as well, showing consistency, busting bone, hitting hard and doing the job asked of it........... Anyone that says different is stuck in time, and or ignorant, and in the case of Wee Wee Weiland, plain arrogance mixed with a tad of assholitis, and just stupid............ Please anyone, feel free to convey that to him personally, direct from me!!!!!!! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Moving forward............ Yesterday I worked with the 416 Remington, its a 24 inch Winchester M70 (Of Course) Stainless/Wood gun from the Custom Shop some years ago. Very nice rifle, shoots great. Now set up with gage, and its working. I have very little to reference to in 416 Remington, data and pressures going back to 2005 last work done. Expecting some of these loads to be at same levels as 2005, 55000-57000 PSI, they did not make it. 45000 to 49000 PSI is what I obtained with the same loads, compared to 2005, on the Oehler. Naturally this is not the same powder or primers used in 2005, and velocity somewhat went along with the lower pressures, 100 fps less, and this actually explains the lower pressures received yesterday. I calibrated PT 2 to these loads. I have loads right now that I know have to be on the higher pressure side, so these will be tested in the Oehler and PT 2 for comparison before I am 100% convinced we are on track with the 416........ I have 450 North Forks loaded in 458 Winchester and 458 Lott both with H-4895 for testing, along with the 2cd generation of the 250 Socom loads in 458 Winchester. Hopefully Monday morning we will start up with some of this work and get going..... Sam is planning to pitch up sometime this coming week to lend a hand. End of the week we are very much looking forward to our pal Brent and his wife pitching up for the weekend...... Things could get a little wild....... HEH HEH... Lots of pie coming as I understand, might be a good time to go back to BLENDING........ LOL.................... We also learned our pal Walter and his wife from South Africa are in for a visit sometime in the couple of weeks, Kwan here on AR......... So its going to be a great December here on the compound............ Have a good weekend, I am off to do some XMas shopping with the girls...... I have no choice in the matter BTW.... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michae, As you well know, I have shot over 25 elephant and an approx. equal number of buff. Most have been with RN solids but I have taken six elephants with FN solids of various makes. I really haven't seen any difference in stopping power based solely on solid nose shape. I think you guys are seeing what you want to see. I have never had a heart/lung shot elephant go more than 100 yards. One only went 30 feet with a shot through the top of the heart. It appears to me that some here are taking a very good bullet design (FN solid) and glorifying it all out of proportion. 465H&H | |||
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Michael Thanks for considering trying to find loads for the .458 Lott using Vihtavuori and Norma powders. Norma has published data for the .458 Win mag. They use N201 (66-69gr) and N202 (68-72,1gr) with 500 gr conventional bullets and N200 (70-73,9gr) with 350gr Hornady RN. Lapua has published data for .458Win mag as well. They use Vihtavuori N130 (55,5-63,4gr), N133 (59,4-69,7gr) and N530 (64,8-73,4gr) with conventional 500gr bullets. For the Hornady 350gr RN they suggest N120 (63,7-69,9gr) and N130 (68,8-74,1gr). There is no published data for the .458Lott using Norma or Vihtavuori that I am aware of. most people I know use Norma N202 and N203-b. Vihtavuori N140 N540 and N135 are also frequently used. Pressure tested loads for the Lott using Norma and/or Vihtavuori powders would be fantastic for us Scandinavians and Europeans as availability of American powders is uncertain here even in times when the US market is flooded with them. Thanks again. I'm keeping my fingers crossed! | |||
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Thanks Jim. When I match my powder type/total charge/measured velocity with PSI Max set at 65,000 PSI, QL lines up well when I plug in a weighting factor of 0.33 for my 416 RUM and 375 Ackley Improved. 65,000 PSI is where I assume I begin to see the very earliest pressure signs. Regards, AIU | |||
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Yes, Impressively generous of Doc M to do all this for the public good.  I will not be asking him to pressure test the 400 Whelen Berry of 2013 using 300-grain bullets with: H4198, RL-7, H322 (extruded powders with WLR standard primer) plus H335, Ramshot TAC, Win-748, and Hodgdon BL-C2 (ball powders with F215/GM215M magnum primer) ... But, I have picked out the 55,000 psi loads from QuickLOAD for those powders, to see which are the most realistic starting points. And I did not even have to sleep at a Holiday Inn Express to figure that out. General principles from this thread keep me out of trouble. I am using a 0.70 weighting factor for the nearly straight-sided 400 WB. 0.75 is the WF for a straight-sided cartridge. QL gives about 50 fps too high a velocity for loads tested so far. Will try adjusting the QL WF to match velocity closer as I proceed. I do not know enough about it to play with the powder parameters. Might have to book a room at the Holiday Inn Express for that.  | |||
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Develop the optimum shape and meplat for repeatable deep straight-line penetration and then produce them within a 0.0001"-0.00015" tolerance by the hundreds and thousands. Oops, can't do that with conventional bullet manufacturing methods.  However, enter the world of computerized CNC machining equipment and yes these tolerances can be met with each and every bullet produced. Now take these CNC machined bullets sized appropriately for each and every DG caliber and now those DG cartridges historically known for limited penetration performance are meeting or exceeding the renowned penetration of the Rigby designed 410gr .416 caliber FMJ bullet. Also the properly designed CNC machined bullets are delivering less barrel strain in DRs than traditional Kynoch' FMJ bullets. Now enter the light for caliber CNC machined FN solids and they are delivering straight-line penetration exceeding that of traditional weight conventional mfg FMJ bullets. Even when these lighter weight CNC machined bullets are fired at higher velocity they deliver less shoulder recoil than when using heavier weight bullets. So what's not to like? And yes accurate delivery of the bullet is required for a clean kill regardless of bullet used. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Hey Michael, While you have your .416Rem hooked up, how about running some light Socoms through it for results. As you know, mine may be going over again with Beau when we go for his cats in 2014. Thanks Pal, Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Stay with me Klein, and keep reminding me. I have a lot going on, trying to get the data going on the 416, and during this time I will see what if anything can be done with the V powders I have, and then in the meantime research some of the N and V powders and see what I can get my hands on..... Do not feel like you are pestering me, you will most likely be of assistance, as I get caught up and do forget things, so this way, I am actually relying on you to help me out a bit, so don't hesitate to remind..... Like I said, in the meantime, I will do some research with what I have, and what I can get to do some tests with for you guys....... Cappy............ Very well stated.................Mike.... I plan on hitting the 225s pretty hard in 416 Remington for data...... That is an incredible bullet, the 250 Socom in 458, and the 225 in 416 Remington finally give us all extreme versatility in these big bore guns of ours, in these calibers........ From Impala to Elephant, everything in between, with ease and no stress........... As we know, I shot 10 buffalo with these light 225s, many passing completely through broadside.... Not that I recommend them for that, as I don't, but that was the test I had, so that is the test I did. On plains game, or any thin skinned dangerous game, these bullets will hammer....... and destroy......... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Good Afternoon guys.......... We are finally putting together some good data for 416 Remington. I have been struggling with this since Friday or so when I first started to calibrate the systems. I was not happy with some of the results I was getting with either the Oehler or PT 2........ ???????  I kept messing with it over the weekend and things were close, but something just did not seem exactly right. I started doing some serious work this morning with both systems, and while the connecting wire I had the hookup with both systems was new, I thought I would change it for giggles and check it out. I changed the lead wire to the gage, and like magic everything came together, damn near perfect PTs, Oehler and PT 2 matched as perfect as you can get, within 500-750 PSI, so now I feel great about the results we are getting with the 416 Remington. Some of the first loads I will need to retest, and then we can proceed. So the 416 R is up and running, all looks good..... This morning I started load development with 458 Lott and 458 Winchester 450s with V-N530, V-N140, and Benchmark. All have potential in the 458 Lott, V-140 is too slow for 458 Winchester, so it is dropped. V-N530 and Benchmark show potential in 458 Winchester, but I don't think they will top any of what we have already, equal? Maybe? We will see..... In 416 Remington I started some work with the 350 #13 Safari Solids today, and it looks very strong so far. 2500 fps or so, and moving. One load stands out to the extreme, and that is 78/H-4895 for a very strong 2560 fps at 60494 PSI..... Most other loads now at 2480 to 2540 or so..... Seems most of the work I have current with the 400s, it will be pushing to get to and above 2400.... Speaking of 400s vs 370/350 Solids.......... Important note to keep in mind. FOR TERMINAL PERFORMANCE ONLY... The best twist rate we have found that will stabilize a PROPER DESIGN 400 Solid, CEB 67% Meplat & North Fork 68% Meplat is a 1:12 Twist. This stabilizes for the entire depth of penetration. 1:14 Twist rate will get you stable for around 95% of the depth of penetration. Slower than 1:14 I don't think I would recommend going with 400s, I would drop to 370 North Fork or the 350 CEB. Stability during Terminal Penetration is what I am talking about............. With this in mind, I will be touching on a few 400 gr Loads, however I will be putting more effort into the 370/350s................. Most of us have 1:14 or slower.......... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I almost forgot... Yesterday we topped out with the 250 Socom in 458 Winchester, 78/H-4198 took us to 2929 fps at a touch over 52000 PSI. Might could cram a gr or two more, but this was an excellent load, just not going to get a lot more in that case...... 81/RL 7 gave us 2859 fps at 47526 PSI..... IMR 4198 2881 PSI, but higher pressures at 58491 PSI..... I can tell you from experience, 2900 is kicking ASS..... Even squirts hippo brains 6 feet in both directions, out of the ears!!!!!! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, Best of my recollection N130 or N133 should should work well in the 458 WinMag, perhaps even better than M530. Unfortunately I'm away from my laptop for a week or so therefore can't access my QL to verify. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Pretty sure he's referencing the .416 caliber. I reckon that means I'll do just fine with my 9" twist rate .423 caliber barrel with 380gr NF FPS and 400gr CEB SS bullets... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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