quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

Hells Bells, Boomy! That is exactly my kind of neck!! Can you make one like that on the Mbogo too? (3", longer neck, shorter body?)

Hey Bent I like the idea that the bullet shank will fill up the neck and not go into the case body so if you use cast bullets the gas check will be in the neck. Little to be gained in terms of capacity with a short neck and small shoulders but this is more about likes than anything. I will make a long neck 3" version when I get in front of my other computer.

<clears throat>
ahhhemmm!
600gr PP bullets do NOT sit below shoulder in the 500 AccRel .. by design ...
.510 hunting bullets are SHORT

a much longer neck will result in a LEVER than can bend the cases...

lol 300 grains

Yes El Jeffe the softs are short in the shank (could not decide what joke to make on that one so I will leave it alone)

570 grain TSX



You could shoot these cheap heavy plinkers and keep the shank out of the body

so it sounds like it is about looks? anybody able to post pics of the 510 wells, 510van horn next to the 500ar, 500mbogo, 505 gibbs and 500 jeff? I'm very visual and like to see them side by side for comparison.

Red

I'd also like to see estimated
brass prices,
die prices,
powder and loads,
and final ballistics in some sort of table.

The advantage to the .510 Wells Express, and .510 Van Horn is they use cheap, Weatherby brass, and, have barrels and dies avaliable.

What about the others?

econmics? if that's the SOLE driver, get a 458 lott, as that is the cheapest big bore there is, in a cz

honestly - Michael's 500 BM is the cheapest .. but only JUST, though if you want a winchester, its probably the best 50.

next is the 500 AR.. really
hornady rigby brass is CHEAP and headstamped brass is almost as spendy as real weatherby brass, that is incorrectly headstamped

dies are 125, and are great

uses the standard .510 hunting bullets, but can also shoot milsurps, by design

standard length action - 1/2 the price of a CZ

Next would be the weatherby/full length rigby sized rounds, as they require a bigger action and brass .. any of the weatehrby based ones

next would be 500 jeffe -- brass is SKY high

then 505 gibbs, brass is high, bullets higher

then 500 NE...

you can call mcgowen, they have the 500 AR reamer and have now done a couple!

For a bolt gun...there is nothing better, nor half as good as a 500 Jeffery..why re-invent the wheel?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
For a bolt gun...there is nothing better, nor half as good as a 500 Jeffery..why re-invent the wheel?

No disrespect but unless there is a great gunbuilder like yourself involved getting the 500 Jeffery to feed reliably I hear is no piece of cake.
The 500 AR is a peach of a round IMHO.
The 500 Mbogo is a cool too and a 2.8" round on the Rigby case will split the difference on a different size action.
The Jeffe wins in nostalgia and factory ammo and guns though.
The 500 AR/Mbogo is not reinventing the wheel but filling a niche and pleasing wildcatters.
If the 500 AR can duplicate the Jeffery factory ammo speeds that is not reinventing the wheel but skinning a cat.
The 500 Mbogo exceeds the Jeffery capacity and a 2.8" case would come close.

Boom stick,
Obviously Mr. Wiebe is not unbiased nor open minded about wildcats.

I bet he could build a sure functioning 500 Accurate Reloading on one of his super custom rifles.
I would rather have one of his standard M98 rifles in 500 AR than 500 Jeffery.

Of course the ultimate would be a Magnum Mauser 98 chambered for 500 Mbogo, made with all the bells and whistles of Duane Wiebe.
I am not unbiased either.

The 500 Mbogo case capacity is about 155 grains H2O, and the 500 Jeffery is about the same, though squatty-fat, short-necked, and with rebated-rim.

And of course the 500 Mbogo in a Magnum action can outperform the 500 Jeffery, without the willies of a standard M98 500 Jeffery.

Slightly OT but still about the 50 cal class...

This is what Lady Luck does to me on a regular basis...always danging the carrot, but usually jerks it away when I slip the harness.

Went to town to send off the NEF frame....stopped at Bi-mart to look at shotguns...found a last years model Benelli Nova at $320, this years model at $350...what's the diff????...checked on Marlin 444 and 450 prices..."just look'n"...headed home...stopped at the last and soon to be the only gunstore in town that has a few used now and then...

Walked in the door, looked at the rack and there sat a perfect Marlin levergun, the "new" blue model 444 M, 22" bbl with the button "Lawyer safety"...been looking for a 444 for 10 years, ANY KIND...$450...Lady Luck must have been rolling on the floor laughing her azz off...Bi-Mart now has them new and available for $550 in blue, $725 for the XLR...this is something very new...check about 5 months ago and got an "are you kidding????"

THAT's not all...

Right next to it was a Benelli Nova, very slightly used...$300...Bi-Mart Price New $$320 on the rack...WHAT THE ****????

Whadayathinkhappenednext????

Right next to the Benelli was an OLD tang model 77 Ruger 30-06...WELL USED on the outside but the innerds didn't look bad...looked like a pickup queen kept in a scabbard...one side of the stock chewed up, the rest "character dings", Timney trigger, Weaver V9, quick release scope covers...$350...haven't seen a tang model ANYWHERE close for the same 10 years.

Lady Luck was laughing so hard she had tears in her eyes and was wetting her drawers...HO'**TCH...

I got the Ruger anyway so I didn't come away stinking of skunk and really can't complain too much..wouldn't help and the HO'**TCH would just stick me harder next time if she thought, I though, I was getting away with something...I have two other tangers and I like the safety better than a side or wing style, after a bit of tweaking.

Got it home, cleaned the bore...it wasn't shot much, but the crown need help and ALL the receiver and scope screws were half a turn loose.

I will check out the accuracy before pulling the barrel. It has a tight spot about 4"back from the muzzle...Some Ruger barrels were not all that good back then, but some were bugholers...time will tell. Easy enough to make a switch barrel out of it and I won't be doing all that much varminting with whatever 50 cal I decide to do.

The NEF will end up a 50-140 or Ed's
499/500 or something in between, won't know until the mood strikes me and I order a reamer.

Now I get to cogitate on WHICH caliber and how much futzing around I want to do with the feed rails...COAL will be 3.3" max which leaves a little bit for wiggle room. In reality I have limited choices with the short COAL...

Guess I need to order a 500 AH McGowen barrel and call it good.

Oh' Yeah...my 20 cal McGowen barrel will be here by Wed for sure...need to order a 204Ruger reamer and get busy.

Luck on your projects.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The 500 AR is a peach of a round IMHO.

While well put, hardly adequate.
That it can duplicate the .500 Jeffery in a rebarreled Ruger M77 is just amazing and wonderful to the world of people who does not have the budget to make Viebe a call, and want a .500.

Duane Wiebe,

Why do you argue with these guys? They do not value practicality/reality only their own wildcatting dreams! (most them have never hunted DG and probably nothing period!) The other known makers have left this site as the VAST majority of posters are in fact POSEURS!!!

I gotta crow here a little bit or eat crow depending on who I'm talking to...(ref Lady Luck).

After doing a modicum of tuning, cleaning, oiling, etc - 1" sq, 0.020" shim on the flat just behind the front receiver screw which lifted the barrel off where it was touching in the barrel channel.

I pulled out a box of 150 Hornady loads tuned for the Sav LA 30-06 barrel. They were too hot for this Ruger and stuck the bolt, but I did get a nice 3/4" OD, 3 rnd 100 yd group, two touching and one just about. The case measured 0.010" longer at the shoulder than a case fired in the Savage which probably caused part of the stickyness and means the Ruger chamber is a little longer than the SAMMI minimum in the Savage,along with the load being on the high side even with being OK in the Savage chamber. I will do some ammo stroking to get things back straight, but I must appologize...at least this time...to Lady Luck. I might just keep this for my PU Queen instead of the 308 I use now.

Back to the 500 Whatever.

GS...Bullet, cases etc., prices at Buffalo Arms, Graf and son, Midway, Cabelas etc...die prices from the specific makers custom shop, RCBS, Hornady, Lee, Redding, etc, or CH4D $150 to $300 or more...information on loads at Ammo guide, about 20 bucks a year subscription price, purchase Load from a Disk - ~$75 or Quick Load - ~$150, Winload - free at Steves Pages and Powley calculator - several places, do an online search...for doityourself load development...and lots of searching in different forums.

Jeffosso, Rip, Boomstick, RGB, ED Hubel etc said it all each with their own brand of bias...and even the bias gives you excellent information to base your decision on.

Basically you start with a RUM case at 100 to 120 gr H2O which gives you "roughly" 3,500 to 5,000 ftlbs energy depending on the load and bullet weight and keep going until you run out of receiver size or hair...or money. The Gibbs and some of it's iterations will do over 9,000 ftlbs and there's the 50 BMG which will double that...not to mention the REAL BIG BOYS...

Not sure which you start with, case capacity, receiver size or the amount of pain you crave...your choice.

This tang Ruger will handle up to the Rigby I think with a moderate amount of work to the magazine, case rim reduction...the bolt face can be opened up to 0.560" and the case rim turned down to 0.540" and there are several simple ways to achieve that goal...not sure yet whether the Ruger mag will handle the OD of the Gibbs case unless it is a single stacker...but as time goes on I will check that out for my own edification if nothing else. I could get away with a 3 down in the Savage by making a new box, opening up the blind mag and making it slightly "pregnent", (already have the drawings)...that information has already been posted and is available for the CZ...I think...???, but has been done many times for other receivers over the years.

Personnally and FWIW...If I had the green in hand, wanted a 50 cal something, and didn't like or want to screw around reading all the opinions and hoo ha... ...I would just buy CZ 505 Gibbs and be done with it...no fuss, no muss, no earache...done...lets go shooting.

Because if I could afford the gun, I could afford the ammo...which is chump change compared to the rest of the costs.

Luck on your project.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Duane Wiebe,

Why do you argue with these guys? They do not value practicality/reality only their own wildcatting dreams! (most them have never hunted DG and probably nothing period!) The other known makers have left this site as the VAST majority of posters are in fact POSEURS!!!

Scott --
this is the BIG BORE forum .. the african hunting forum is at the top of the threads.

Foobar --
RIP and I designed cases to do different things .. and fit different budgets and actions.

I know and Me to, Jeffeosso...just not commercially...I do it for my budget, my wants and my needs, but mostly for my edification and enjoyment...probably the reason I look at "wildcatting" and hunting in general from a different perspective than those involved in earning a living at it...I do it for the pure enjoyment of producing something different and that I can, in fact, do it...doesn't matter that someone thinks...just as many others do.

First time I held a 404 Jeffery in my hand way, way back, I thought "Wow, what a case!!!. Wonder what can be done with it"...Who listens to a punk freshman...I couldn't even afford 22 ammo hardly much less do any wildcat experimentation or buy a custom rifle with a custom chamber and custom ammo...and anyone who did "play" with case "manipulation" kept it close to the vest, built custom rifles for specialized uses, and didn't spread it around all that much.

Not all...Powley and Ackley put it out there for those interested. I bought my first "reloadable" rifle, a 30-30 Win, Lyman "nutcracker", bullets, primers and Speer reloading manual, in the fall of 1955 with summer hay money...been "playing" at it ever since.

Don't claim to be anything special, I don't fault anyone's efforts at wildcatting in any sense, whether or not I think what they come up with is viable or not, and hope what I scatter over the net isn't read as negative, but I am direct...maybe that gets up someones nose in this day of political correctness BS. I don't put anything out that I haven't already tested in some fashion whether I read it somewhere and thought it valuable or came up with it myself. Without "cut and try" or failures, we will never learn and never progress beyond the usual prattle...although I do sometimes get a little testy and bite back...for things I really get into I try to pay back all that someone else has taught me over these many years.

I've killed enough things in my life to know my abilities, worked enough dangerous jobs and dodged enough bullets not to need to prove anything to anyone ever again, haven't killed anything but squirrels and the occasional "chicken thief" for 20 odd years, have no desire to blow away something as magnificent as an Elephant or some cud chewing buffalo intent on doing nothing but earning his daily bread or protecting his "family"...and think it's a sad commentary on humans in general to keep killing the dwindling polulations of large game all in the name of "manhood", and have lived long enough to see the effect of "headhunting" on deer and elk population.

But I still like the big boomers, still like guns and shooting, would fight to the death if someone wanted to take my guns away from me. I'm a preditor at heart, I know what kind of animal a human being is, so I keep making them and always have a couple handy.

Luck on your journey.

Foob...

Killing an elephant can feed a village for a while and the populations have to be kept in check.

I just had completed a 500A-2 on a magnum Mauser (pic below from gunsmithing forum). I also own 2 other magnum Mausers (416R & 460Wby), a ZKK-602 Lott, a custom CZ550 and am down to one Rem 30-S. However, my recommendation for any bolt action DGR is a standard length Mauser, handles much easier, 500AR if a 50 caliber or maybe a 495A-2.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
For a bolt gun...there is nothing better, nor half as good as a 500 Jeffery..why re-invent the wheel?

700 dollars for a 3 die set, and custom press.
5 bucks for each case.

I guess there is a point where 2400 fps and a soft point makes sense...

That's true Boom...but if that village wasn't there then you wouldn't have to shoot that elephant to feed the excess population.

Just think...if the human population was reduced say 75%...all over the world...the animal population was allowed to return to the carrying capacity of the land and all the "heads" were left to pass on their genes, just how good would the "trophys" get??? It would be just like the "good old days" when a safari was something other than a few day canned barnyard shoot and a hunter REALLY had to hunt. I don't care how you couch it...being driven up to a few hundred yards, let out to walk a bit, prang you victim, then having a cold beer while driving back to camp for a sundowner isn't my idea of ANY kind of hunt...although there's nothing at all wrong with a cold beer almost anytime or sundowner after dinner around the campfire...that's one reason I don't any more...I can pop an elk out my front door just about any time of year, with a 22 while they feed on my grass...where's the sport...

I've used bows, crossbows, black powder, and even tried a spear I made as an experiment once...missed by a mile...the deer squated, pissed and shit on the ground while looking directly at me as if to say "stupid human".

I've spent many hours sitting among herds of deer and elk watching and listening to their grunts, whistles and whines and seeing how they acted, just so I could hunt them better when the season came...and I got run over almost by an upset doe, not once but several times, when I reached out to touch her fawn...I get tickled every time I think about those bits of gold dust. I find it very hard to blow away something I see in that manner unless I'm hungry for venison...then...I'm just another preditor like the rest.

There are several ranches with bison herds withing 50 miles of me, all catering to "buffalo hunts"...including one about 15 miles over the hill from my place where a couple of friends took a young female apiece, with 45-70's while I leaned on the fence watching them and scratching the head of another young female...$1500 bucks apiece and they were warned if they shot any but the ones that were pointed out, it would be $5000 for a bull and $3000 for a breeding cow.

Some "hunt", eh....they were proud of their accomplishment, they killed their animals quickly with one shot each at about 40 yds, I can't fault them in that way and they did it for the meat AND the "sport", these animals were destined for hamburger and chops anyway, and they offered me some of the meat, and while I buy more elk and buffalo meat than cow meat from my favorite butcher, I couldn't take any of THAT meat.

It's all relative...and we are powerless to stop the destruction of our planet from overpopulation...just wish it would hurry up...no different then the time of the dino-beasty's when wee little creatures lurked in the grass...something is just waiting for Homo sapiens get outtatheway so "they" can have their shot. Doesn't matter that we know and understand this is happening...we can't stop the process and most people don't want to anyway.

You can always tell when I'm in a holding pattern...I get loquacious and verbose...you don't hardly hear a peep outta me when I got things working...it's all your fault Boomy...you started it....

Where I live the herds have been dwindling every year, lots of illegal hunting because of the economy. The deer herd, I counted 35 one morning, that used to feed on my grass is all but gone...human intervention either by auto, truck, at least a dozen deer fatalities over 10 years, including the person I bought my place from...or guns. One lonely spike buck last year, two does and two fawns...haven't seen hide nor hair of them this year, and very few when I'm out ratting or just for a drive.

My idea of hunting today is hunting "the most dangerous game", both with an even chance for a "trophy"...but you can only do that when governments say you can.


GS...CH4D has 500 Jeff, Gibbs, AHR, A-sq for $182.57, the smaller 50's for $156.60, 2 die sets, and the different size inserts for about $15...don't know why you need a 3rd die???

A RCBS Rockchucker press only is $126 at Midway which will handle most of larger cases...except the 50 BMG...but when you go there you need deep pockets anyway and the cost of the press, dies, bullets, primers, cases is chump change compared to the cost of the rifle and getting to where you can shoot your toy. You know...if you can't walk the walk...stay out of the kitchen...something like that.

Gibbs, Rigby and Jeffery brass run less than 4 bucks depending on the brand...375 RUM for the B&M or MDM runs about a buck.

Ruger 30-06, R-P cases fireformed to the chamber... uses a plus 0.008 Comp shell holder, Lee sizer reduces base 0.001"(GREAT), 58 gr H4350, Horn 150gr SP, 3.30" COAL, Throat 3.78" with the Hornady bullet touching...LONG .500" jump, haven't chronoed yet but expect 2800 ft with that long throat but doesn't seem to hurt the group. Could go another grain or two easy enough. I won't tell you the size because you will think me more lier than you already do, only that I'm laughing up my sleeve and grinning like a cheshire cat. Not sure a 220 gr bullet will even reach the lands and still be in the case, but will check that out someday. Might have to turn out some 250 gr brass wadcutters just for kicks.

Luck on your projects.

Talk me out of a .500 Nitro Express built on a Ruger No.1.

I too have thought of a .500cal bolt rifle.

..I have talked to my gunsmith about getting a magnum actioned M98 for the .500 Nitro 3#. They will have to make a more slanted magazinebox + a few other modefications to accomodate the rimmed cartridge. It would be a 3+1 capacity.
The project is already on the drawingboard.

I think instead of "Which .500" that it should be corrected to Which .510?

Michael

I still think that in .50 cal that nothing is simplier than a .500a2. The only thing attractive about the .500 Jeffery is that it will fit in a VZ24 M98 action. The ,500a2 is simplicity itself. Run a .460Wby case through a .500a2 sizer, load and shoot. Out pops perfect cases each and every time. Only detraction is you need a Very erxpensive action like a CZ550( joke) and a half hour to make it feed. -Rob

I wouldn't try to talk you into or out of ANYTHING, much less that very nice combo...other than mention the 510 Gibbs has a slightly larger case capacity...175gr measured in 3 Gibbs cases I use for fitting...compared to ~135-150gr for the 500 NE 3", depending on who you read, I haven't actually weigh measured a 500 NE 3"...the 500 A-Sq has ~125gr.

The 500 Jeff, Mbogo, AHR all fall in the same relative capacity range...and are all applicable to the R#1

You get into the point of diminishing returns with all these cases...how much weight you can haul around and how much recoil you can stand for one or two shots.

I'm waiting for Ed's 499/500 for the .500" NEF bore...so I crunched some numbers using a 500 gr bullet and cases from ~60 gr(500 S&W) to ~180 gr(510 Gibbs) H2O capacities...very significant gains up to ~130-140 gr case capacity, then the gains dropped of quickly.

Biggest gain was going from the 500 Martin - (~65 gr powder/1850fs/44kCUP)...to the 3" NE - (~100 gr powder/2200fs/45.5kCUP)...that took ~35% more powder...

A 50-140 case took 132 gr powder for 2350fs/44kCUP...that's double the amount of powder over the 500 Martin for a gain of ~500 fs and about 25% more powder for a gain of ~130 fs going to the 3" NE.

The 510 Gibbs case with a 525gr bullet went ~133 gr powder/2365fs/44kCUP...25gr more bullet, ~15gr more velocity.

Of course the large cases did procuce higher velocites and will handle heavier bullets so you always have a gain in energy...Energy increase directly proportional to the bullet weight but at the square of the velocity so you gain more and faster by increasing the velocity rather than the bullet weight. E=MC sguared.

I kept the pressures down to what is safe in the NEF break action...going to a bolt gun will raise all the parameters by a significant amount and this number crunching is just rough estimates...and it boils down to making choices as to the actual use.

Again...all things equal and wanting a .50 cal beyond all reason...I would pick the CZ550 505 Gibbs or a 500 Weatherby for a factory rifle if I were into factory offerings and build my own ammo to the higher safe pressures that are possible today and not worry about the 0.005" difference in bullet size...there are still plenty of excellent hunting and practice bullets available for the 505...I don't think any beasty you prang will whip out a caliper to measure the OD of the bullet that just ended it's munching career.

But being that I'm more into BIGGER now and a confirmed wildcatter...I want something in the .585, .620, .700 cal...(not that I could ever actually shoot a full house load without a lead sled and all the recoil reducing mechanizms I could add on to the stock... ). Hahahahahah

Search for the R#1 already done in 585 I think...very nice pictures...makes me totally jealous...and look at Eds toys...and Robs 600 OK...Why limit yourself???....I keep begging Murphy and Lady Luck to ease up a bit. LOL

Luck on you quest.

I don't know, maybe I come late to dinner and should keep my mouth shut! It seems to me that there are many many 505s to 510s out there and all can and will do whatever is asked of them if properly loaded. I think the question does not need to be concerned about the cartridge as much as "What Rifle Do you Want Chambered for?"

What rifle do you want--then choose the cartridge that will fit in the rifle!

Michael

What Micheal said +1. It is more about what rifle action you are going to use. In my opinion the CZ set up for the .416 Rigby is one of the easiest to rebarrel {and cheapest} into many of the .500 cal and bigger cartridges. Like Rob mentioned, the 500 A-2 is most likely the easiest and then 500AR, 500Mbogo, 495 A-2 and many others up to and including the .550 Magnum for the ultimate stopper with minimal modifications besides a rebarrel on a Rigby based action.
Rodney.

Oh, man...NEVER be late for dinner...or breakfast...or lunch...and you and Rodney are both right.

Opinions whether used, abused or spit on, still offer insight for those with eyes open enough to see...doesn't really matter if the information is accepted or not, "right" or not or just plain personal bias...EVEYONE has an opinion and a backside, the odor of which depends on many things.

We are all wannabe's in some manor or form, some like to jaw flap while some just like to read...some are self important and others willing to give of their experience and knowledge...some need to be "right", others don't care...AND everything in between...it takes all the pieces to make the whole. This thread points that out very poignantly.

It could also be said that NO ONE is "right" except to their own individual experiences and no two experiences can ever be exactly the same.

In any event...there are always choices to be made...

Some of this thread should probably be in the wildcat section...maybe.

Luck on

I think has mostly to do with the gun used also.
If a Nef, you can't beat my 499HE, and you can run
good pressures in the NEf so that it will
do as good as other 50 stuff used in bolt actions.
It is rimmed and designed for break actions like NEF
and falling blocks.ED

I am not sure if I am upside down, or maybe backwards, but all my cartridges for the most part are designed for the rifle, or around the rifle. Not the rifle for for the cartridge!

So I figure it's pretty easy, what rifle do you want to work with, carry, hunt with, shoot, what have you, then pick the cartridge that works best with that particular rifle. Any .505 to .510 or even a true .500 will do the job asked of it, if you work with the proper bullet!

Pick the rifle, proceed from there.

Easy

Michael

There's always more than one road to Valhalla, and ways to lick an ice cream cone...getting there is half the fun and working out the details is the other half.

Michael, your 50 B&M Alaskan is an excellent choice for the NEF for those that want some extra whack at the far end without too much at the close end...

And Ed's 499 HE is for the Maxy-Mums what want all they can get out of the NEF...I'm looking forward to getting that toy built and snorting...all except the whack at the close end...I'm putting in another hole for weights in the stock and making a BIG MB. hahahahahaha

Bigger is better...Right!!!!...????

Luck on your projects.

Got a solid quote on a refitting my Ruger. The price makes me wonder why I hadn't done it sooner.