The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Cor Bon Rifle Receiver-Er, ActionGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
Has anyone seen these in person? Larger than CZ 550 or Magnum Mauser; Peter Pi says they will only be building receivers; no barrelled actions (he says they are not in the custom rifle business, won't be in the custom rifle business...which seems counterintuitive since they've never been in the big bore rifle receiver business before, but that's not stopping them now...) First production run of 20 Ships next month he says... | ||
|
| Moderator |
From Cor-Bon's site:
George  | |||
|
One of Us |
What is it really worth? 5k? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yes I have seen them in person. At that price they are not worth it. Blake | |||
|
| One of Us |
How overbuilt did they seem? Relative to say, CZ Magnum or MRC PH? | |||
|
| one of us |
A "receiver" is just part of an "action." This is an action, not just a receiver, for $4995, I hope! And funny thing is it is offerred in size for .375 H&H and .416 Rigby, so in what way is it bigger than a CZ 550 Magnum or Magnum Mauser? Is it the bolt diameter? I would rather have a CZ 550 Magnum tuned up than pay $4995 USD for one of those. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Bolt diameter is .7" so no. If they made a .75" bolt that would be something. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
| One of Us |
so on my math this is roughly 2/3 more than a GMA? besides "because someone will pay for it" what other reasons are there for the price tag? curious minds would like to know. | |||
|
| One of Us |
You could ask that about several products on gun the market. are bespoke english doubles really worth the price they ask?..Why not a Searcy at 1/3 the price instead? Do people really pay $15k for an Echols Legend? What about a Dave Miller & Co. rifle? and is H&H shop built Hagn really worth so much more than a Ralf Martini Hagn? Theres one thing for sure, anyone who can actually reputably & punctually supply a custom action that a customer has paid for [or is ready and willing to pay for], then yes it can be worth its asking price. I doubt a person in the process of ordering a custom classic Echols& Co. big bore for his African DG hunts is going to squabble about a couple thousand bucks here or there. Once he decides on a rifle he wants, he most interested in not getting f*cked around by lengthy unnecessary or avoidable delays in the whole process. To me that process begins with a suitable high grade action that is actually available. If some feel its not worth the price,thats ok, they are under no obligation to buy one.
Bolt dia. alone is not everything. The Corbon receiver has mods that make it more suitable for big bores, than other .70" dia. bolt receivers.
| |||
|
| Moderator |
Whether the price can hold at $4995 remains to be seen. However, many people here own Blaser R93s which run in a similar price stratum, and extra barrels cost $700-$2200. If the action is 'worth' it, people will payfor the best. George | |||
|
| One of Us |
I suppose that's the point, George isn't it? Is value perception or reality? At this point it is perception since it is a new offering to the market place and has a big time name attached to it. Time will tell if it value becomes reality. How shall value be judged in this case? If the rifle action performs as it should when needed it is valuable. But $5000 valuable? In contrast, AHR's tuned CZs perform as needed at a considerable fraction of the cost of a Cor Bon. Same for Winchesters and other commercial 98s. It'll certainly be interesting to watch. I, for one, hope they do well. | |||
|
| One of Us |
D'Arcy would not make a bad product but I would have guessed this would go for about 3k. I was asking the question whats it worth and I know that's subjective. But how do you quantify the 5k price is my question. I am not slamming the action. I like it when new products or competition comes to the market. I wish them success. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
one of us |
Frankly- Its another case ( CorBon) of have CNC and lets put em to use and charge what the market will bear. Probably they have someone skilled in SolidWorks and have equipment time available. I too have that level of skill and the CNC equipment, but have never bothered to make a M98 style action, because I didn't think anyone would pay the price when CZ's are available. I see no advantages here over a CZ550 and would rather put the money into another safari.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| Moderator |
Panos said he'd pick you up at the airport.  George | |||
|
| One of Us |
I got a chance to talk to Peter and handle this new action at SCI last. I had visited him in Sturgis a couple of years ago, and he told me he was going to do it, and so he did. Good for him. Peter's philosophy about pricing ( at least what he told me ) is; build something of quality and people will pay for it. Quality has value. You can't go wrong with that (my words). From what I saw at SCI, his action is definitely a quality piece. I wouldn't expect anything else from Peter and D'Arcy. I wish him the best of luck. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Prechtl has the in-house skill and CNC equipment, and bothers to produce M98 styled actions. His actions are used in his own shop rifle builds and by several premium makers around the world. Clearly he sees a market and is capitalzing on it. However, he is also an reputable upright operator able to supply his clients. The Prechtl is probably priced somewhat near-higher than the Corbon, and i don't see that or the demand for his actions, changing anytime soon. From a practical and price point perspective, The Cz550 is a good value square bridge M98 derivative/alternative. However there will always be a select market-people with the money and desire to have a more traditional M98 platform used in their bespoke build. Put it this way, who would commission a magnum Safari style bolt rifle from HartmannWeiss and request they use a CZ 550 receiver?.... most unlikely that they would entertain such folly. I know the H&H shop have built single shots based on a Ruger #1 action....  Then we have the likes of Hagn and Soroka who have gone to the effort to produce exquisite FB actions, and not surprisingly certain AR folk do not see the value in them over a Ruger #1. Fred Wells custom M98 actions had a rather[relative] high price. He was willing to help Mike Roden produce the GMA, that has since allowed a more available/lower priced unit. However, by the time you bring the GMA up to spec for a premium build, it cost has risen far above its orig. $3k price tag.[expect a charge of around $1500 too properly finish a GMA] | |||
|
| one of us |
Trax- If I take a CZ550, color case harden it, replace the bolt handle with a nice engraved 4 panel teardrop and engrave the name of the maker of you choice choice on it, would you buy it from me for 4K ( ok I'll charge you even more so you'll feel good and have bragging rights)? It will work just as well as a Hartman and Weiss and only you and I will know. Please send me your money( I require the full amount upfront) and Prepare to wait in line ( just like Hartman and Weiss)! How old are you? I need this info so I can properly determine the completion date.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| one of us |
Trax Quote: "Put it this way, who would commission a magnum Safari style bolt rifle from HartmannWeiss and request they use a CZ 550 receiver?.... most unlikely that they would entertain such folly." Trax: Yes, starting with a receiver only, of any make, is indeed silly, when it is so easy to bring along at least the bolt that goes with it. You are still one of only 2 members on my ignore list, so I have to go to the special effort of un-ignoring your accumulating posts on this thread. You do not know the difference between a receiver and an action? Will the custom builder fabricate an entirely new bolt body, and etc., etc., to complete the action?  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Wow, Who could know such a simple question could generate such lively discussion! Y'all are great!!! As a side note, no-one is set up to make stocks for the Cor-Bons. | |||
|
| One of Us |
If some people personally prefer/want a traditional design featured M98 over a CZ,then thats entirely within their discretionary power[perogative] to have one. Clearly thats what gives some people pleasure and satisfaction. Yes, some people brag about how much they spent or about the makers name , but others simply have admiration for the M98 magnum mauser action, [H&W do such a wonderful rendition of such]...and those people are prepared to pay for such a HQ limited run product. Its unwise to assume its always based on ostentatious "bragging rights". If having a modified CZ at a fraction of the price of a custom bench made M98, is what rings your bell, thats also entirely your perogative to do so. Some people could then just quietly enjoy the choice they made, others might brag-on about how much money they saved in the process. There are those people who value having what they want in a custom rifle as more important than having idle money.- The money gives them power to have what they personally prefer. If someone feels they can produce the same features & quality as a Corbon,H&W or Prechtl action for less dollars,what they waiting for?... go right ahead and make a success of yourself in the market.
Yep, you could do alot of hunting with a CZ based rifle and never have a problem, whilst saving yourself money. You could also save more money by having: a douglas instead of krieger, plainer walnut instead of exhibition grade, Have less engraving or no engraving, get a Leupold instead of Zeiss or Schmidt&Bender, get a plain island sight or fitted 1/4 rib instead of considerably more expensive integral featured barrel, get a much cheaper less skilled smith who doesn't bother doing the finest/accurate inletting and checkering,better still just get a synthetic stock, .....because none of those higher priced options will necessarily make your rifle any more effective,reliable or accurate or your game animals any more dead. but heaven forbid that anyone have the ordacity to buy/pay for what makes them happy-gives them personal pleasure in a rifle. Would I pay H&H to build me an M98 bolt rifle, definitely no. Not when I can get an exquisite Ralf Martini built M98 rifle- for 1/3 to 1/2 the price. His M98 bolt rifles begin at $14,900,[using orig m98]offering options; GMA $15,900,FZH $16,900, H&W $19,900. Holland&Holland New York, currently has a plain jane .270win based on an old orig.M98, for $48,000. | |||
|
one of us |
A Fiat will get you to the same dance as a Ferrari. But it ain't the same. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Interesting off subject side note; did anyone notice Mauser's current posterchild bolt action is not CRF? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Both about as reliable as one another too. Is there anything in particular that this action does that a Dakota doesn't? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Dear Stockbroker: I have not handled a Cor-Bon action, so I cannot directly answer your question. But looking at that Cor-Bon web page photograph, I have a few observations. That ain't no stinkin' Mauser. Its a modified Winchester Model 70. If you want it, and you're willing to spend 1/2 of a grand on it, be my guest. I wouldn't, and I'm not a fan of CZ's either. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
|
| one of us |
Trax- Unfortunately I think your missing the point. There is NOTHING special about a M98 style action that warrants a 4K price tag, Nothing. With CNC equipment you can knock them out all day long. H&W doesn't use unobtanium to make their actions nor does CorBon, just readily available alloys. CNC Machine time here in the good ol USA approaches $75/h,So what exactly justifies the price? The second point is that some people are truly stupid and have more money than brains and that combined with a lack of relevant skills, feel that by spending a ton of money on something that they somehow have caused the item to transcend into "ART" and also magically make up for their poor shooting skills. Oh yes Mr.Bill, my $12K H&W makes me a great shot by definition. NOT! The fact that the 12K H&W will sit in your safe because your too afraid to shoot it wont improve your shooting either. Sorry, a M98/Win/70/CZ 550 action of any ilk isn't worth 4K. There is a point where snob appeal transcends actual value, and thats the choking point for me. Then again, I consider all guns as simply tools and a means to an end. I appreciate fine craftsmanship but when these actions are concerned the craftsmanship is all done in "solidworks". My offer still stands though. Send me 4-5K and I'll send you an action the equivalent of any H&W ever built! I'll engrave your name on it too! You can then spend as much money as you want on barrels, stock blanks, sights etc. Knock yourself out! Me,I'll use your money for a Safari or maybe towards a upgrade to my copy of solidworks!-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Chris I have told you before--a M-70 is BETTER than A 98  SSR | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| One of Us |
B.Searcy makes doubles for hunting DG Clearly he feels a monoblock-boxlock double is sufficient for such task, ....yet he also offers H&H sidelock and Rigby rising Bite- in chopper lump.[ so overall ,starting prices ranging from $10,500 to $45,000] In practical terms, I gather those two premium big-name action designs [and chopper lump feature] aren't really required, does that mean people should not have one and various manufacturers should stop making them? ...and those that do own such more expensive to manufacture "big name" designs, are pretentious snobs? ..and anyone who prefers to have something that just so happens to be more refined, complex/expensive to manufacture, is somehow considered stupid and foolish for spending such xtra amount of money? Do we all need to be relegated to CZs, box locks and Ruger #1 actions? Have a CZ based custom bolt rifle for the rest of your hunting life and die an old age with $250k in the bank, or have a Corbon,GMA,or H&W based custom bolt rifle for the rest of your hunting life and die an old age with $247K in the bank. If dying with more money or having more trophies on the wall,or having owned the rifle you really wanted, is more important to you, then make ones choice accordingly.....  This is one of the finest SXS rifles ever built and quite rare; a H&W-Nelson built 9,3x74R. If one was fortunate to own such, it would be in appreciation of the dedication & effort individuals gave of themselves to create such an exquisite piece. Having said that, I could be content with a HQ side-lock, costing only a small fraction of that uber-H&W double.  | |||
|
| one of us |
Trax- well lets just agree to disagree. BTW I have a H&W .375H&h rifle, from the days when I too had more money that brains and lets just say it will be one of the first to go ( assuming I can find someone dumb enough and with enough money to buy it)when I finally liquidate my collection, Along with the GMAs and others. Nowadays I have a better appreciation for what is really valuable and I refuse to pay the prices certain "master gun builders " demand. I also really doubt those H&Ws get dragged around Africa either, the vast majority spending time in gun safes with maybe half a box of ammo ever run through them. you know im right too! Let's get real! A H&W is no more accurate than a run of the mill CZ or Ruger either. If you have the discretionary income, go ahead and spend it on what you want, I'd rather put that money towards a better hunt or more shooting time.Just some words of wisdom. -Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Why not contact H&W and ask them to help you find someone dumb enough & rich enough to buy your H&W rifle? ...clearly they must have much contact with such people...or go with one of the prestigious gun traders or auction houses and tell them the same story,I'm sure they can help move it on to an unsuspecting sucker.. for a decent price. Well I gather a good number of firearms like H&W, Purdeys, or expensive diamond jewellery,rare watches,super cars,etc, remain locked up most of the time with relative little use. There are a good proportion of money rich-time poor folk out there. I have noticed folks that order Echols Rifles take them to Africa , cause they had them built just for that purpose. Im also sure some rich German/European industrialists-hunting enthusiasts,do take their H&W rigs to Africa. Now being realistic,... the combination of time rich-passionate hunting enthusiast and great wealth is not that common, so I would not expect to see a lot of them being used in Africa. | |||
|
| one of us |
Well that's another problem. I expect it will take quite a few years to find buyers for my over $20k guns. My expectation is the bolt actions will be the hardest to sell with the English double rifles going first. Fortunately, I don't plan to start selling anything till I hit 85 which is quite a few years away. Till then, I've got more hunting and gun building to do. In all reality, while I took some damn expensive guns to Africa years ago, I'd probably never do it again. my H&W . 375 rarely sees daylight from its position in the safe just because it's literally too valuable to shoot. That frankly bothers me a lot! For dangerous game my old battle scarred CZ 550 based, .600 OK is the gun I'd bring every time and never get tired of or been disappointed in. It probably cost me $2k to build and has nearly 1000 rds down the bore by now. When I die, my hope is that gun is in my hands. I have one I built on a GMA too that's much more elegant and better stocked, but it gets less use than the CZ based gun. I have no problems dragging a 2k gun through brush and baggage handlers,but I have to think thrice about doing the same with way more expensive guns that I'd never really replace if they were lost or stolen. To me bolt guns are not nearly as elegant as double rifles and the difference in skills required to make one are like night and day. That's why I continue to think that over 4k bolt actions are a simple waste of money. Your free to disagree.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
one of us |
Trax I may be out of place, but don't use the word perogative when you mean prerogative. .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
|
| One of Us |
quote me as being lazy sometimes. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Dear Cross L: A Winchester Model 70 better than a 98 Mauser? Not in my book. Feel free to argue. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
|
| One of Us |
A custom H&W .375 too valuable to shoot? Id consider it a waste of money if I didn't give myself the joy of using it on game. Natural wear & tear does not bother me, but I would not consume the barrel in any fine centre fire custom just recreationally blasting away at the range every week. Loosing a fine rifle in transit would bother me the most , not because of its value, but because of having to suffer the annoyance of another build. Style aside, quality cost time/money to produce, be it bolt rifle, FB or SxS. But I gather because you don't consider bolt rifles as being as elegant or complex, that they are also not worthy of the cost of high grade work. | |||
|
| one of us |
Trax- You got that right. Bolt guns are not complex, nor especially elegant IMHO and NOT WORTHY of prices exceeding $6K, again IMHO. For $6K max you can have a very elegant HUNTING tool and thats the most I'd be willing to pay. To be clear, with a little work most $2K DGR guns will be more than adequate. As I said before,please send me $10-15K and I'll build you a bolt gun based on a CZ550 that will make your heart sing! You'll be the envy of your gun club, your friends will be impressed. Dogs and children will like you. I will have your money. Whats wrong with this? To be clear, you think extremely expensive bolt guns are worth these ridiculous prices and I don't. Try building a gun yourself, then you'd understand what actually goes into them and I think it would change your perspective as it has done mine.With todays technology making M98 style bolt actions really isn't hard and it just seems like that to you because you don't understand what actually goes into it. Thus, you have bought into the mystique of otherworldly craftsmanship costs big money. Spend some time learning how this stuff actually is done. You'll then know, or at least deeply suspect, you've been taken  -RobNever underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Dear Robgunbuilder: You may be correct, but aren't you attacking your market? I assume that your moniker, "Robgunbuilder" is a definition of your trade? Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
|
| one of us |
Yale, That is Robgunbuilder's hobby: gunbuilding I believe his trade might have something to do with patent rights on immunotherapy pharmaceutical agents due to his work as a PhD in biochemistry. Rob has minimal secondary gain in his opinions on rifles or rifle parts sale prices, unless he is looking to unload some of his accumulation.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
RGB, how many HRS would it take you to produce an action identical in features and quality - to a complete H&W M98 action? [making every component in-house] ...and what price would you sell them for? Since SXS rifles are more elegant and more complex[more costly] to build...and thus more worthy of the prices charged, it now makes me curious,..there are several makers of HQ sxs rifles based for e.g.; on the H&H side lock design,..but at vastly different base prices, whats the most you would pay for a new high quality SxS based on the H&H side lock design? How much is too much?....do you also consider them [like your H&W .375].. too valuable to use? | |||
|
| one of us |
trax -A CNC version of a M98, possibly virtually identical to a H&W assuming a 3d scan was properly converted to G code should take a max of 20 hrs or probably $1500 to make, maybe less. a fair value would be NMT $2k in my estimation. 4k? A marketing guys estimation of what certain people might pay? I firmly believe that should I make such actions, even at $2k they would sit on my bench for years and years. Basically there just isn't the market you think there is. 99% of Big bore hunters and shooters won't pay that price for a custom action and are content using factory actions as the basis for their dream guns and I believe they are correct in that thinking. With respect to SxS doubles, my max would be in the 15-25k range which is about where B Searcy guns average. I think butch charges a fair value for what he produces. How is it possible to charge $100k plus as does H&H , just because someone uses the technology of the 1800s? Yes they do nice work, but I'm not that interested in more safe queens and gag at the prices. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Cor Bon Rifle Receiver-Er, Action
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
