Howdy All,
with all the "gentle" reminders I am receiving, I recall that I said the 500 AR would be a 2007 Project...

and it's 2007.

Here is a line drawing of the 500 AR

it is to be based off the Jamison cylindrical 416 rigby brass, though lapua brass would work nearly as well

there is no belt.

I would looking at this, and thought "hmmm, wow, this looks alot like a 550 express, with no belt and necked to .510" ...

yep, pretty much what it is!!

I expect the neck thickness to be slightly smaller, but as it stands headspace will be PLENTY .043... in fact, more than a belted case, which is only .021 (.532-.511)



Just as soon as I get some jamison basic rigby, i'll shape and verify!!

jeffe

Looking good, Jeffe!

Same old Ruger? I suppose a single-stack will be needed?

Bent,
thanks!

on a milsurp action, one would probably need to do a single stck... GOOD NEWS, though, it COULD be a center feed stagger, due to x57 or -06 geometery

on a ruger, you could cut down a 416 rigby box and stagger, i THINK.

but, in any event, at least 2 down in a "Stock" stock...

it is a work in progress

That is good news!!

Jeffe- Good luck. Should be similar to the 500 Mbogo. I'd not waste my time on anything other than a Single stack mag. Why get frustrated.-Rob

the 500 boom stick er um i mean 500 a.r. lives!

jeffe...goodonya for being a fearless enthusiastic innovator who gets things done!

damn i am excited about this one...

a single stack m98 50 cal pea shooter

what are you projecting performance wise???

backwards 50 bmg bullets here we come!

jeffe hurry up so i can shoot it when i get to texas

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

I expect the neck thickness to be slightly smaller, but as it stands headspace will be PLENTY .0395 ... Just as soon as I get some jamison basic rigby, i'll shape and verify!!

jeffe

Good work Jeffe.

If you are able to get any Jamison .416 Rigby basic cylindrical brass, that will certainly be the way to go.

If you trim down the .338 Lapua and neck it up, would be interesting to see if the necks split. I havehad no problems going to .458 on full length .338 Lapua necking it up in two steps, first to .375 then .458. I never tried all the way to .510.

Your cartridge is like a 500 Mbogo shortened a whopping 0.450" and given a 20 degree shoulder instead of the 35 degree of the Mbogo.

My preliminary 500 Mbogo dummies were made by seating the .510 caliber 50 BMG milsurp bullets backwards. The ogive of those spitzers necks them up smoothly from .475 to .510.

Here are some brass neck O.D.'s from that, the brass having first been fire formed to 470 Mbogo and then necked up as above:

BeLL Rigby basic: .535"
QualCart 470 Mbogo: .534"
Norma .416 Rigby: .537
Jamison 470 Mbogo: .532"

Of course your neck thicknesses formed at a position closer to the base of the case may be greater, so as you say, you gotta make some dummies, or run the risk of having to outside-neck-turn.

My part-time gunsmith/full-time R&D engineer friend is still sitting on my 500 Mbogo, so I put the Jamison basic brass on the back burner. If you find some is available please post here.

Thanks.

any guesses of performance?

535's or 570's@ 2200?

boom stick,
I would not hazard a guess, as the 500 AR is going to be so EFFICIENT!

Rich has been through the neck thickness thing with his .510 KX and I noticed his reamer had a neck-1 of .541" and a neck-2 of .539". Any comments from him on Jamison brass would be interesting.

Another approach is to make the chamber neck parallel with same neck-1 and neck-2 and .004" bigger diameter than brass neck diameter. I prefer this approach.

Anyway, remember the 500 Van Horn Express from back when they had to turn the belts off of 460 Weatherby brass to get a slightly skinnier version of the .416 Rigby basic?

the only thing that brass is good for IS trimming off the belts ala 500 a2 no belt

the 500 a.r.'s time has come!

Rip, all

thanks for the kind words...

the van horn drawing has always bugged me.. it's WRONG on both the weatherby and rigby rims...

the rigby is "nominal" .589-.590, and the weatherby is generally .602 belt, and .585 rim ...

you couldn't beat a rigby case into a vanhorn chamber with a 2# sledge (.579 on the drawings)


which leads me to wonder how many of these where ever built?

jeffe....check yer p.m.'s!

Jeffe, my PacNor a-square barrel finally arrived. You can now have my old Wells barrel for this project.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

the van horn drawing has always bugged me.. it's WRONG on both the weatherby and rigby rims...

the rigby is "nominal" .589-.590, and the weatherby is generally .602 belt, and .585 rim ...

you couldn't beat a rigby case into a vanhorn chamber with a 2# sledge (.579 on the drawings)


which leads me to wonder how many of these where ever built?

Jeffe,
Look at the mythical .500 Weatherby Magnum below the 500 Van Horn, same page of Howell.

That shows a .5790" rim for the Weatherby case and a head diameter ahead of the belt at .5820". Weatherby belt diameter .6035" max spec. These would be maximums and consistent with the 500 Van Horn being made from turned down 460 Weatherby brass. It would work fine if those are the specs. Consistent. Actual brass measures do often differ, factory brass being 2-3 thou less than max quite often.

You do make a good point about not being able to get a .416 Rigby case into a 500 A-Square sizing die without swaging a mini-belt onto the Rigby case. The Rigby base is bigger than the Weatherby base ahead of the belt.

Max .416 Rigby rim is usually listed as .590" spec. Max diameter ahead of the extractor groove is usually .589" spec.

In actual brass I usually find the Norma .416 Rigby and the Lapua .338 Lapua Magnum to be identical in rim and base: .587" to .588".

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Jeffe, my PacNor a-square barrel finally arrived. You can now have my old Wells barrel for this project.

AWESOME!!

thanks Forrest!! a 510 wells on a bauska bbk will be born soon!


thanks for the update on the rim diameter!

that's a real interesting cartridge drawing by j. smith. is it inteded for a single shot rifle

must be for a disposable rifle as no rim nor extractor groove...... or am i missing something

maybe it is like the gyrojet round ?

Last night boomy gave me a call, and I thought "hey, let me try something" ...

and put 3 full length lapua CASES into an unmodified 1917 action (well, the mag is unmodifed) ...

did they "fit" ... yep, barely

did they feed? nope, but, as yeager said when the plane went into an inverted flat spin...

"good, I know how to get out of that"

LOL

Tom,
LOL, thanks for the candid input, though it's kind of a tyro's joke.. that is, the butt of the joke is not as the joker intended

why don't you tell me where that information would go on a reamer print?

answer... you can't, as it is UNDER diameter and is therefor of no use to a reamer maker.

soooooo the 550 express has 133 grains of water??? (can you confirm this jeffe), the 495 a2 has 131 or 132 depending on source, what is the guestimate capacity of the 500 a.r.???

Jeffe will be hog happy in a few days...I turned over 5 once-fired 510KX FL sized cases over to the USPS, bound for Porter, Texas.

Rich
DRSS
Big Bore starts at 1/2"

rich...

can you fire form beltless 500 a2 in yer 510kx?

might want to get a virgin 500a2 and file down the belt or give it a quick pass in a lathe to see if it will fit.

boomie, iirc, the 550 express is 138, the a2 495 is like 135, and the 500 ar SHOULD be around 133. might be as low as 128, depending on brass

thanks el jeffe...

so split the diff and 130 gr average...enough to pummel anything that walks...i dont even think whales are safe...570s @ 2100 @ 45,000 psi and topping off at 2400ish?

considering the 458 lott is 108 gr capacity...another 22-25 gr over the lott, more frontal area and will fit in a m98 nicely...recipe for success. load it from 50 alaskan power to 495 a2 power smoke em' if you got em'

bppmy, quickload says a hair over 2400 MAX MAX loads with a 23" barrel and 570 woodleighs...

if i can match the 535 at 2350 and the 600 at 2150, i'll be very happy ... the jeffe on one end and the 500 NE on the other

you should see mid 50s for 2250 with a 600, mid 40s at 2161

remember, it's within 10% of the case of a 500 ne 3", and, if you work that the "other" way, within 3-4% of the same velocity at the same pressure

damn jeffe...

the 500 a.r. is a dream come true...

you dont think you could load it down to 50 alaskan levels?





these could be some great "pig-bombs"

300 and 450 grains respectivly...

heck, shoot them backwards for hammering + penetration

the 300's should have the trajectory of the 30-06

good lord, boomie....

yeah, you could use those, but cast bullets would be cheaper and more effective...

now, if you REALLY wanted to do something cool, have a 450gr "driving band" cast mold made, with the crimping groove CENTERED .750 from the nose, with a tapered flat nose, meplat of .400, have wayne make them hard as a trolls head, and run them 2500fps with a GC... you WILL lead the bore, probably under 10 shots, but it would be FUN

these 525 gr cast performance will fill that bill...crimp them on the top grease groove. but i getcha... a custom one would be best.

there is something about chucking those 300 gr bombs though @ 2800 fps

aim for the hind quarters and try to spin a deer.

quote:

aim for the hind quarters and try to spin a deer.

dont worry...just humor...

Charles_Helm,
don't worry about the spin factor, it would be like hitting a corvette six inches behind the door handle instead of head on with my Dodge 3/4-ton diesel P/U!

regards,

Rich
DRSS
550 Gibbs builder

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Charles_Helm,
don't worry about the spin factor, it would be like hitting a corvette six inches behind the door handle instead of head on with my Dodge 3/4-ton diesel P/U!

regards,

Rich
DRSS
550 Gibbs builder

I like a good joke as much as the next guy but even joking about intentionally aiming that far back on an animal just strikes me as wrong.

Sorry to interrupt the .50 cal celebration...

Charles,
I agree, it is incombant on gun owners to be totally ethical in harvesting game

o.k....i have never done that or ever will...just saying it will be a thumper

everyone have some coffee and have a good day

Hey Jeffe,

what's a Texas Heart Shot?

You hit it solidly and the spine gets broken, along with rupturing the major blood vessels. Animal is dead faster than with a good lung shot.
Boomie was making a funny, let it go at that.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Hey Jeffe,

what's a Texas Heart Shot?

You hit it solidly and the spine gets broken, along with rupturing the major blood vessels. Animal is dead faster than with a good lung shot.
Boomie was making a funny, let it go at that.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

Just curious, would you aim that way on a broadside shot?

Rich,
heh, texas heart shot is where you aim at the troll and hit the heart!!

LOL

revised 2-1-07

Okay,

(ring on nose of left bullet is from the collet bullet puller)

So I have to thank Rich and Lawndart for the base brass. Funny enough, the 338 Lapua and 416 basic (LD and ISS) measure DARN CLOSE to the same neck thickness

I am thinking a 1" leade, to allow milsurp bullets

firstly, these are ROUGH formed, literally using my 500 jeffe dies, and yeah, they aren't exactly the same

second, this is with a .561 shoulder, (as formed) final will have a .577 shoulder, or MORE than 25% improvement in headspace..

third, the base diameter on Rich's cases are right at .586 +/- .0005

cases weight 322.00gr, and as drawn, that makes them 131 gross water capacity... making it ~1% smaller than the 495 A2, which means 1.25% LESS velocity than the 495A2, at the same pressures... (.495 SAYS it runs a 600gr at 2360.. okay, if you believe that, then the 500 AR will do that at 2350ish)

(the 500 a2 has 143gr)

which I don't expect to run at those pressures


2.65" case, 3.4 OAL MAX





in lower pics with 2.55" case, now obsolete (535gr hawk schuler bullet and 600gr RN) and made up some 3.35 dummies.






23" barrel, 57,500 PSI
130.94gr water capacity
109.7gr H2O useable
3.4"
535gr woodliegh
QL - 2431fps
Expectation 2395fps

23" barrel, 57,500 PSI
130.94gr water capacity
104.7gr H2O useable
3.4"
570gr woodliegh
QL - 2331fps
Expectation 2295fps

23" barrel, 57,500 PSI
130.94gr water capacity
104.2gr H2O useable
3.4"
600gr woodliegh
QL - 2266fps
Expectation 2215


23" barrel, 57,500 PSI
130.94gr water capacity
115.4gr H2O useable
3.4"
535 cast
QL - 2457fps
Expectation 2400 MAX 2100 easy

23" barrel, 57,500 PSI
130.94gr water capacity
105.1gr H2O useable
3.4"
535 hawk schuler bullet
QL - 2410fps
Expectation 2375

24" barrel, add ~20 FPS



for what it's worth, i can put 3 in a straighten 1917 and feeding will be WAY less hassle than any of the other 500s.


so, if i get 2150 with a 600, I am running with a 500 NE in a 9.5# bolt gun, 92ft-lb recoil, and very low (for a bolt gun) pressures...

want to be that bet I run 535 casts at 2300 QUITE a bit?

it appears Lawndart and I have made a wise investment Young Jedi!

RIP, note the diameter of my brass...matches Lawndart within production tolerances.

Go Get 'em Jeffe, we're with you.

Rich
DRSS