……..…………………………………………...…

375H&H one rifle for the world!

……………………………………………………………..Case closed!

I tried a lot of big calibers in my life in Africa and everywhere else..Most all of them worked..I saw a lot of overgunned hunters, who frankly were as scared of the gun as the DG they were hunting, and figured the bigger the gun the safer they would be in a charge or so they claimed over the evening campfires..

I sold my doubles and all my big bores and settled on the 375 H&H some years ago and only recently Ive gone to the 375 Ruger, and that's my only DG rifle today, in the Ruger African model.A 7.5 lb. rifle naked, and an 8.75 with scope, mounts and loaded..perfect for this crippled old man..Ive never had a failure on buffalo with the .375..but I will include to never take a facing shot as sometimes it will deflect a 375 H&H bullet between the foreleg and the rib cage, and that could get exciting I suppose..Ive seen it several times but only with a 375 and it happened to me on one of those occasions, but didn't result in a situation, as follow up shots worked...

If you can handle the recoil of your DG rifle whatever is, then your in good shape, just behonest with yourself..

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
When silly questions like this appear, it becomes more obvious that some folks have gone stir crazy.

Well said

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

No one NEEDS a rifle -- any caliber -- unless it's in war or self-defence against a predator -- two legged or four.

In hunting, we choose what we consider appropriate for the task, or what we want to use!

The .375 H&H is a fine cartridge, but like all the rest it has limitations. It's not magic. When push comes to shove, the 9.3 x 62 is its equal with best handloads. And that's according to Dr. Robertson and the late Dr. Heath, both PH's and wildlife biologists with "tons of experience".

I have experience with each and find little disparity between them when handloaded with equal barrel lengths and bullet weights. And in bear shootings, I've found the .45-70 to be superior to the 9.3 x 62. So I have to conclude that a .458 Win Mag, or larger bore, will do things "better than" smaller bores.

What do we "NEED"? A .275 Rigby perhaps?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Legal minimums aside,
I just wonder if Saeed would find a .223 suitable for his one-caliber expeditions ?
A .177 ?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Legal minimums aside,
I just wonder if Saeed would find a .223 suitable for his one-caliber expeditions ?
A .177 ?

Rip ...

My dear friend, you have joined a number of other friends I have here who think I have well and truly lost he plot!

I have all calibers up to the 700 Nitro Express, if for one minute I thought this one is better for hunting tan others, I would be using it.

On my first African safari I used a second and Remington 700 in 375 H&H, shot an elephant and two buffalo with it, and many other game animals.

Worked great, no problems whatsoever.

Second safari a friend gave me a Weatherby Mk V in 416 Weatherby.

Again, shot several elephants, several lions, and several buffalo with it.

Worked just as well.

Roy was happier, as he always thought bigger is better.

Then I built a 416 Rigby Improved.

Again, I used that on many elephants, lions and buffalo.

Worked just as well.

Then I built the 375/404, which I and others have been using ever since.

Worked so well, even Roy ha been converted to like it.

He finally says "it works".

And that is all I need for hunting.

One gun.

One bullet.

Kills everything.

DEAD.

For planes game, I have used several 270 wildcats, 7mm and 338 caliber rifles.

All worked and the only difference I noticed is bullet drop at longer ranges.

Otherwise they all killed just as efficiently.

I would be happy hunting with any of the 270 wildcats I have.

But, I just like the 30/404.

If it was legal, I would build one with a slightly shorter barrel than the one I have now, which has a 28 inch barrel.

I am certain even Roy will accept it once he sees how it works!

Just as he says about our Walterhog bullets "they just work!"

Well as the old saying goes, "What's need got to do with it?" I sure have a lot of calibres that I suppose I don't NEED, but as the old question goes, if you could only have one, which would it be? I would choose the 375 H+H.

I think the discussion here is in regard to what is needed for hunting big dangerous game.

It amazes me how many people blame bad shooting at the gun, and start talking about using a bigger gun.

Won't make a bloody difference, a bad shot is a bad shot, and that is it.

Can't speak personally about African game as I only visited once and it wasn't for hunting. Though I did spend one day in the bush with a guide and my son who was a licensed resident big game hunter. Using his 12 ga., I wacked a couple of wart hogs.

But he shot a lot of game while living in the bush for nearly two decades among the tribes people. He didn't like a borrowed .375 H&H, he said. But his main rifle was a single shot .22LR. I witnessed him kill a baboon with that at 50 yards. One out of a troupe of about 50, and he walked calmly in amongst them, picked it up, walked back to the truck, deposited it in the back, sat down again beside the native chief of the village who was a friend and wanted it for his family as a meal. They rarely saw protein, unless Brent (our son) killed some wart hog for them, with his single-shot .22 LR. His favorite gun was a single-shot 12 ga, which he later donated to the local guide (with a few Brennekes -when they were available and he could afford them.) But he did kill some "trophies" with a 12 ga. And I saw him kill a duiker with his .22 LR as well. He also finished off a raiding lion with it and a wild cow than was menacing the village. When I hunted with him, he had a well-worn 12 ga. pump. That's what I used with Brennekes because he said we might run into a lion or buffalo. The only other "weapon" was his single-shot .22 LR.

That's all I know first and second hand about Africa.

But first hand, I know about black bears here in Ontario, and that a .45-70 (or .458 WIN) will kill them where they stand without a CNS hit. I've killed a few with my 9.3 x 62 and they all ran a certain distance after a good hit. They were good shots, that if taken with a .458-cal would have dropped them on the spot. I don't like them running off any distance as that might mean a followup in a thick tangle of brush in the dark, or into a ravine where they might be lost. And I don't have an entourage of other hunters, guides or PHs as assistants or companions. The most I've had on a couple of those situations was a hunting friend and partner.

My son has gone back to his village in the dark of the night, after a hunt with his single-shot .22 LR, and the batteries of his flashlite were dead, with lions roaring nearby.

He has also walked out of the woods in pitch darkness, for one mile to his pickup point, here in Ontario on a black bear hunt. I was the closest person to him at 3 miles away. But he did have a flashlight and his .356 Winchester M94 XTR, loaded.

So whenever a discussion like this is brought up, I smile.

PHs in Africa are often in danger. But the client?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Saeed,
Just yanking your chain as you are so often wont to do. Thank you for the reasoned response.

Bob,
That is some amazing stuff about your son's .22 LR and 12 Ga use in Africa.

However, we are still no closer to an answer to the original question, and we never will be unless we split the baby as wisely as Solomon.

What rifle is surely too small for DG use ?
I submit that it is a caliber .177, even with best possible handload, not a BB.

What rifle is surely too large for any sort of practical use for DG ?
The .735-caliber/3.85" Flanged aka 12 Ga From Hell with +200 ft-lbs of recoil energy is a top contender for avoidance.

Surely midway between too little and too much is the wisest choice of caliber:
(.177 + .735)/2 = .456

A .458 Winchester Magnum is about as close to perfection as possible, for DG hunting.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

PHs in Africa are often in danger. But the client?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

After the first few stalks with me, my PH frequently let me approach game with only my gun bearer (unarmed) with me. Actually, I preferred it that way.

When I killed my leopard my PH had driven off and left me in the blind with his gunbearer and my gun bearer. After I had shot the leopard, we exited the blind and were approaching the tree when the leopard relaxed to the point that his hind quarters fell off the limb. That was the first time we were aware that he was actually dead.



When I killed my lion, the PH drove me to within 75 yards or so and let me get out and accept my DR from the gunbearer, then he and the entire party drove away, to comply with the law prohibiting shooting within 100 yards of a car. His last words to me before driving off were. "Look out for the lionesses, they may charge you." Fortunately for me (I was shooting a .375 H&H DR) they didn't react to the termination of their lord and master.

When I shot my third elephant, we were driving along a ridge when the boys in the back spotted him, purposefully walking down the valley below us. As we approached, I suddenly got the idea that he might get past us before we could get in shooting range. I took off running down the hillside and reached a spot only a few yards from where the elephant had just passed. For the first time, I tried the "Bell shot" behind the ear and downed him with it, then fired another shot into his heart in case the first shot had not been actually fatal. My PH and the rest of the entourage were still descending the hillside.

On numerous occasions I stalked plains game with only my gun bearer. Had we unexpectedly encountered something more dangerous than a gerenuk or a Tommie, I would have been on my own.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
When I killed my leopard my PH had driven off and left me in the blind with his gunbearer and my gun bearer. After I had shot the leopard, we exited the blind and were approaching the tree when the leopard relaxed to the point that his hind quarters fell off the limb. That was the first time we were aware that he was actually dead.

xausa,

OK, you are not the average Joe on Safari.

Great picture !
What "caliber" left you initially uncertain if the leopard was dead ?

Rip ...

Saeed,

Would you shoot elephant with your usual walterhog or do you have some that don't expand for that?

Your bullet seems to be reasonably similar to a TSX, at least in function, yet I have been told not to use those with elephant. Similarly, I would expect with the spitzer style bullet it would not track straight in bone, but likely tumble.

I realize the chances of coming across a shootable bull in the Selous are rather small, and I have no doubt as a cartridge the .375 is capable of dropping an elephant, but would you not do some minor things differently if you were expecting to shoot elephant?

Actually, this is not all that uncommon in my experience as far as from time to time.

I have split up with my PH and I'm with the scout following the tracker while the PH is trying to circle around with wounded game. This has included buffalo.

I've also gone off to shoot bait by myself before.

Essentially, the PH enjoys his time in the field and because of that they tend to be with you. Yes, they are responsible for your safety and that plays a role. Yes, you are supposed to be under their supervision... but that has a lot of leeway.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
When I killed my leopard my PH had driven off and left me in the blind with his gunbearer and my gun bearer. After I had shot the leopard, we exited the blind and were approaching the tree when the leopard relaxed to the point that his hind quarters fell off the limb. That was the first time we were aware that he was actually dead.

xausa,

OK, you are not the average Joe on Safari.

Great picture !
What "caliber" left you initially uncertain if the leopard was dead ?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

xausa,

OK, you are not the average Joe on Safari.

Great picture !
What "caliber" left you initially uncertain if the leopard was dead ?

Rip ...

[/QUOTE]

With the same .375 H&H DR. I shot the first time and he didn't move a muscle. My first thought was , "I have just shot at the only deaf leopard in East Africa and missed." So I shot again, and still he didn't move. A post mortem revealed that I had hit the spine with the first shot and the second was less than an inch away from the first.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Saeed,

Would you shoot elephant with your usual walterhog or do you have some that don't expand for that?

Your bullet seems to be reasonably similar to a TSX, at least in function, yet I have been told not to use those with elephant. Similarly, I would expect with the spitzer style bullet it would not track straight in bone, but likely tumble.

I realize the chances of coming across a shootable bull in the Selous are rather small, and I have no doubt as a cartridge the .375 is capable of dropping an elephant, but would you not do some minor things differently if you were expecting to shoot elephant?

I do have solids of our Walterhog bullets.

True, for almost 20 years hunting the Selous, and other parts of Tanzania, we have never came across a shootable bull!

Check the thread starter's profile. We will probably be posting to oursleves

What year was that “deaf” leopard hunt?
Seems you have lived an amazing life.

xausa,

Thanks for the pics and the stories!

If you want to see some shootable bulls, go to Maswa. I saw several that were legal, and we were not hunting elephant.

But even you would likely feel they charge too much...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Saeed,

Would you shoot elephant with your usual walterhog or do you have some that don't expand for that?

Your bullet seems to be reasonably similar to a TSX, at least in function, yet I have been told not to use those with elephant. Similarly, I would expect with the spitzer style bullet it would not track straight in bone, but likely tumble.

I realize the chances of coming across a shootable bull in the Selous are rather small, and I have no doubt as a cartridge the .375 is capable of dropping an elephant, but would you not do some minor things differently if you were expecting to shoot elephant?

I do have solids of our Walterhog bullets.

True, for almost 20 years hunting the Selous, and other parts of Tanzania, we have never came across a shootable bull!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
What year was that “deaf” leopard hunt?
Seems you have lived an amazing life.

That hunt was in the fall of 1972 and the bag included two elephant, five buffalo, lion, leopard, sable, greater kudu and a host of other plains game.

It must have been something to have seen Africa and hunted it while most of it was still quite unspoiled.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
What year was that “deaf” leopard hunt?
Seems you have lived an amazing life.

That hunt was in the fall of 1972 and the bag included two elephant, five buffalo, lion, leopard, sable, greater kudu and a host of other plains game.

quote:

It must have been something to have seen Africa and hunted it while most of it was still quite unspoiled.

In 1972.

xausa:

That fall of 1972 you were in Kenya ?
Five years before the ban of all hunting in Kenya, 1977 ?
That ban did not work out so well for the wildlife, eh ?

Fall of 1972, I was an underage Plebe at West Point, hating the house-breaking routines there,
especially after rumor came down that the USA was working on just quitting Vietnam.
Summer of 1972 Beast Barracks: The 2 weeks of bivouac in pup tents was the most fun I had there,
getting to see the New York sissies flinching with M-16 qualifying.

Rip ...

Does anyone need more gun than a 375?

Yes.

Mark Sullivan and people like him, who cannot shoot straight and wound so many buffalo!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Does anyone need more gun than a 375?

Yes.

Mark Sullivan and people like him, who cannot shoot straight and wound so many buffalo!

The yanking of Cal Pappas' chain comes immediately to mind.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Does anyone need more gun than a 375?

Yes.

Mark Sullivan and people like him, who cannot shoot straight and wound so many buffalo!

The yanking of Cal Pappas' chain comes immediately to mind.

Rip ...

Well, funny you mention Cal.

And the hero he worships!

The poor sod got kicked out of Tanzania, so he went to work as a tea boy on a farm in South Africa.

Cal went all the way there to “hunt” with him!

Imagine traveling half way across the world to hunt with a loser who cannot get himself licensed as a professional hunter!

These are the sort of nuts who need a bigger gun!

Real hunters don’t!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
xausa:

That fall of 1972 you were in Kenya ?
Five years before the ban of all hunting in Kenya, 1977 ?
That ban did not work out so well for the wildlife, eh ?

Fall of 1972, I was an underage Plebe at West Point, hating the house-breaking routines there,
especially after rumor came down that the USA was working on just quitting Vietnam.
Summer of 1972 Beast Barracks: The 2 weeks of bivouac in pup tents was the most fun I had there,
getting to see the New York sissies flinching with M-16 qualifying.

Rip ...

I never qualified with the M-16. When I went through PLC in 1960, we were still using M-1's and when I attended Basic School in 1963, we had switched to M-14's. This was before McNamara and his Whiz Kids inflicted the M-16 on us. Don't get me started on that.

I never qualified less than Expert and in my first "Leg" Match got my first "leg" on Distinguished. I finally accumulated enough points shooting on the Tennessee State Team to qualify as Distinguished in 1984, the 499th civilian to do so.

This was back in the "good old days" when the ammunition was issued on the firing line and no sighter shots were allowed.

After shooting at 12" 10 rings at 600 yards with iron sights, shooting at an elephant or buffalo at under 100 yards didn't present much of a challenge, except for the increased heart rate.

When I shot my first elephant, I was standing looking at the dead animal when it occurred to me that he just might not be dead and maybe it would be a good idea to reload my rifle. I started to open the bolt, but discovered a live round in the chamber.

Further investigation revealed a full magazine, but four empty cases were lying at my feet. I finally realized that I had trained myself to the point that reloading was unconscious and I had automatically carried it out without realizing it. A handy habit to acquire.

quote:

Further investigation revealed a full magazine, but four empty cases were lying at my feet. I finally realized that I had trained myself to the point that reloading was unconscious and I had automatically carried it out without realizing it. A handy habit to acquire.

Good training and practice accomplishes a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Further investigation revealed a full magazine, but four empty cases were lying at my feet. I finally realized that I had trained myself to the point that reloading was unconscious and I had automatically carried it out without realizing it. A handy habit to acquire.

Good training and practice accomplishes a lot.

Many times I have fired follow up shots with out remembering having worked the bolt.

I guess I have never needed more gun,
But I damned sure have wished I had a bigger one a few times !

A .375 will certainly do the job by all accounts, but to me, confidence in the rifle and practice are most important. For me, that rifle is a .416 Rem. Mag. It's one of the most accurate rifles I own, regardless of calibre. It is the rifle I have the most confidence in and it has cleanly taken everything from dik dik to elephant across the pond and whitetails to turkeys here in the States. My go to rifle for everything. I'm good to 300 yards with it and really don't want to shoot anything any farther than that.

When your bullet strikes your quarry outside the central nervous system, but in a fatal zone, more gun is definitely better.

Greater bullet diameter and weight, and higher velocity, at least up to around 2,500 fps or so, incapacitates and kills much faster.

And to my way of thinking, faster incapacitation and death, in the case of a huge, dangerous beast, is definitely better.

All else, including the skill of the shooter, being equal, of course.

Its amazing how much interest a ho hum topic and draw and its interesting to a point..I suppose their are those who oppose the use of the 375, if so then they should chose what they are happy with..good or bad we have choice and we have to live with those choices..I really like my new Ruger Hawkeye in the 375 Ruger caliber, just had to try that one out, and its got my attention. I like it.

I think most folks shoot the 375 and 9.3s better, Many have the bigger bores for display.
but the bigger bores also work well for those who "really" have the required recoil tolerance.

Ray, I too really like my Ruger African 375 ruger. It's a small, lightweight, slim stocked rifle, shooting a 300gr. SAF @ 2,660 fps. What's not to like? Last week I took it out to the range and shot a 3-shot group a hair under 3/4" group at 100 yds. with Swift factory ammo and the afore mentioned round. I really want to take it to Africa someday for Buffalo. It will be a joy to carry.

I certainly respect Saeed's advice and opinion on this thread, and he has the credentials to back it up. But I am also wondering if there aren't two different scenarios of DG hunting being discussed here. I'm sure he will comment and share with us.

I stated earlier that I have been very pleased with the two Buffalo I have shot with my 375H&H. One was at 80 and the other at 100 yds. I have taken five more with a 404J and a 458L. They were 50 yds. away or a little more. I have never been charged by a Buffalo.

I have found the 375 H&H to be quite adequate for Buffalo, however, I can only comment on it's success at these distances. Though I've never been charged, I feel that these two circumstances could call for different weapons. Again, I have no experience in charges and will concede to those who have, but if I ever find myself in that position, I know I will feel better with a 40+ caliber and a heavier bullet in my hands. Stated before, I hunt Buffalo with a scoped 375 and an open sighted 40+ rifle. The former, for that 'hoped for' ideal broadside shot of an undisturbed and unaware Buffalo that we all dream about, and the latter for either a close in shot or a 'stopping shot' on an up-close, in-your-face distance, angry and wounded animal.

Now, I have no doubt that a properly placed vital nervous system shot with a 375 will stop a charge, but I'd much prefer a 40+ caliber in that situation. I realize that with only (9) safaris under my belt, I am a novice beginner compared to Saeed, but the PHs I have hunted with, who live in Africa and with these DG animals all year long, have all carried 40+ calibers, with the one exception of an appy PH in Zim who had just begin his career, and was using a 375h&h that his grandfather had given him. They are defending their client's life as well as their own on the safari, and they have chosen a 40+ rifle to carry. Their main concern is probably a charge, because they are not hunting. They are defending. Andrew is probably a good example when I have hunted with him in Zambia. He has a 375H&H in his battery that he can loan to clients, or use himself if he wishes, but in the four times I've hunted with him, he has carried either a 404 Jeffery or a 500NE double.

Please, no one think I am disparaging a 375 for hunting DG.

However, if given the choice of a 375 or a 40+ in a charge situation, which you may find yourself in one day if you continue to hunt Buffalo, say stopping a vindictive bull at spitting distance, which would you choose? I would choose the 40+. I am equally sure Saeed would choose his 375/404, and I think he'd probably be just fine. It would not be my choice, and from the Phs I have hunted with, they have chosen a 40+ as well. I don't think there is a 'correct' answer, just personal ones.

Is this thread talking about just 'hunting' DG, or also 'stopping' DG at handshaking distances? Let me ask that question here. How many of you would chose a 375 for stopping DG at extreme close range, if you had a choice of a larger bore?

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

and higher velocity, at least up to around 2,500 fps or so, incapacitates and kills much faster.

I think there is a lot in your 2500, I would say 2500-2800.

A bloke on Australia's biggest gun forum has shot heaps of buffalo in the Northern Territory and with his 460 and 500 Double. He loves his 500 but when it comes to kocking them over he says the 460 is well in front.

One of our top stock maker/gunsmiths is extremely traditional. He shot buffalo with the 400 Nitro (2000-2100 loads) and the 338 Winchester and said the 338 was better. Givev how traditional he is that says a lot.

I have always thought there were three velocity levels and where you get a big differences whether on animals, tree or rocks The 1200-1300, the 2000 area and the 2500-2800. Just look at the huge difference between the 22 rim fire, 22 Magnum and 22 Hornet/218 Bee.

I have never shot the big stuff like you blokes but I sure have shot some pigs, goats and the big red roos and I am talking numbers lie you blokes shoot prairie dogs. What I found was best killing power seemed to be at no more than 2800 or so. The exception being when something like a 270 Wby will expand bullets that a 303/270 won't or likewise with 300 Wby and 308.

yes - while i don't mind hunting with a medium, i require an actual big bore -- my wife loves her 375, though

Jeffe,

.40's used to be considered a medium bore. But I agree with Ray on the true big bores. I have some, but I shoot the .416 a lot better, whether because of the inherent accuracy of the rifles or my recoil tolerance. So the .416 gets the nod every time at least for me.

Classifications of what is a big bore has been changing.

In some old books a 375 is considered a small bore, because I suppose they needed much larger bores to kill anything with those lead bullets.

Needing 30 shots at an elephant chasing him on horse back.

I had this very thought in my mind the first time I was about to shoot an elephant.

And I could not have had a worse gun, according to some.

A push feed Remington 700 in 375H&H!

We approached this bull, and he was a few yards beyond a bush we were hiding behind.

My thought was pull the trigger, reload, pull the trigger, reload and so on.

I moved to he side to get a clear shot, looking at this tiny rifle I had in my hands, and fired!

He dropped stone dead!

I did try bigger calibers afterwards, non of them killed any quicker, or better.

All the bullshit one hears about a certain cartridge knocking them down better than others is just in the imagination.

Saeed, my wager still stands.