quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Saeed, my wager still stands.

May I know what your wager is?

I don't want to sound pig headed, but I think I have hunted and killed enough big dangerous game animals to form an opinion I can rely on.

If for one minute I thought a bigger caliber would be better, I would have gladly used it.

I do have various rifles in .45, .50, .58, .60 and .7.

I shot them here in my range, but I stick to actually hunting with a gun and caliber that has never failed.

Sorry to have brought it up.

You were clear that you don't gamble.

Which is a good policy generally, and especially, in your case, on this issue.

What criteria does a bull elephant have to have to be shootable?

Mike,

You are right my friend.

I do not gamble.

And I do not take chances with my skin.

I try make sure When I hunt neither me nor anyone hunting with me is any danger from being under gunned!

Generally one shot, one kill.

Non of that stupid Hollywood play acting after purposely wounding a buffalo and walking up to it with a .600 Nitro Express saying "I LET THE BUFFALO DECIDE HOW TO DIE!"

Carpetman,

Countries have different criteria on what a shootable bull elephant's size should be.

Some only weight, some both weight and length.

Saeed, I do not doubt you for one second.

Still, I will tell you a short story.

I once killed a Cape buffalo, in the Mkuyu camp, in the southern Selous.

He stood facing us, in plain sight, with two other old dugga boys flanking him. Thirty yards away.

I put a 500 grain Woodleigh soft into his chest, at 2,300 fps, from my .458 Lott, right through his heart, and deep into his rumen.

He flinched, ran, and virtually disappeared, into the tall grass to his left and our right.

There was some talk, as cigarettes were smoked, and eyes were shot and shifted. Had I killed him?

A half hour later, after some tense follow up in the elephant grass that I will never forget, we found him many yards away, down in a heap, and deader than fried chicken.

Was my .458 Lott enough gun?

Yes.

In subsequent years, with my .500 A2, results have been instant. As in dead right there. Knocked to the ground.

What I have said repeatedly on this forum, and what I stand by, is that high velocity big bore rifles drop and incapacitate game faster.

Best are those that generate in excess of 2,500 fps of muzzle velocity. Fifty caliber minimum. Generating 8,000 plus or minus ft.-lbs. of muzzle energy

These will drop big game, especially buffalo, hard and fast and for certain.

Quicker and with less after-the-shot drama than lesser rifles.

I can't fathom why there's any disagreement on this. Maybe the small bore crowd doesn't mind a long follow-up.

Personally, I just like to walk right up to them where they were slammed to the ground right after I shot them.

This is always within a couple of yards or so of where they were hit. Sometimes they struggle back up to their feet. But they are deader than Elvis, and merely wobble and glare a bit.

And so I work the bolt and shoot again.

Game over.

Every time.

How far was he?

Were you using a scope?

Years ago in Tanzania, we followed some buffalo.

Caught up with them, and shot a bull from about 200 yards away.

Hit him on the point of the shoulder.

They all ran off and we ran after the,

They stood in an open area, and we could see the one I shot hobbling on a broken leg, and another one close by looking straight at us.

I shot the second one in the chest from teh front.

He dropped stone dead.

The wounded one was still standing, I put a bullet in his forehead as he was looking straight at us, about 100 yards away.

He dropped too.

We found that my first bullet had disintegrated on the shoulder bone, and never made it into the chest cavity.

His shoulder bones were turned into sand!!

Later on I found that some of my bullets came from faulty copper rods, which I use to make them.

The copper rods had tiny air pockets, which run length ways, and made the bullets disintegrate.

After that episode, we weighed every single bullet made, from any new rod.

The rods we get are in 4 meter length, and we cut them to 60cm to fit into our machine.

We mark each rod before cutting it, so we know which piece is which.

I make bullets out of each one, and weigh them as they are made.

If there is any weight difference 0.5 a grain I know there might be a fault in the rod, and we stop using that.
Ever since we started doing this, we have had no problems at all.

Back to buffalo hunting.

Whenever an opportunity presents itself for a head or neck shot, I take it.

My professional hunter never complains, especially if it is late in the day, as the buffalo drops in its tracks

And just imagine, using a lowly 375 too!

Shot placement and bullet design are king.

But no matter how good everything seems to be sometimes Murphy raises his ugly head.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Shot placement and bullet design are king.

But no matter how good everything seems to be sometimes Murphy raises his ugly head.

Very true.

And I guarantee you the size of the bullets men’s absolutely nothing then.

This thread has already been beaten to death but since i have nothing better to do!

Fact - Perfect bullet placement first followed by a good bullet is what kills an animal quickly.

Fact - a 375 has less energy than say a 416 or 500 for example.

Can a 375 kill everything in Africa YES And YES. And I 100% agree that if you cannot shoot a bigger gun than stick with the 375.

But if you can shoot a bigger gun well then you will find it to be more effective than a 375 caliber. But it all depends upon the shot placement. Caliber is not going to matter much if a buff is shot with a 500 or 375 in the stomach! But on an iffy shoulder shot, better a larger caliber, bigger hole more blood to follow possibly as well! And if its incoming then bigger is better. Why otherwise would PHs be carrying big guns! Not too many hunting DG carry 375s!


Arjun Reddy
Hunters Networks LLC
30 Ivy Hill Road
Brewster, NY 10509
Tel: +1 845 259 3628
2020, DSC booth # 2350
2020, SCI booth # 3167

.375 will kill buffalo and it is considered the minimum in most countries.

Personally, I think the .416 is the better choice IMHO.

I have killed buffalo with the following: .375HH, .416Rigby and 450Rigby and the .416 and bigger calibers really rock their world.

Thinking a bigger gun would have been better is pure speculation that will never be known.

How is one to weigh and measure a bull elephant to know it's shootable?

ok I got it now. It requires a .458 Lott. Reason being it develops 8000 lbs of muzzle energy. Let's say a bull elephant has to weigh 16,000 lbs to be legal, so to weigh it, all you have to do is shoot it and see if it went 2 feet. Some of the smaller ones, you might get into metric measurements which would be more difficult.

If you shoot them in the CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM, then all bets are off, since as long as penetration of a well-constructed bullet is sufficient to reach the BRAIN or SPINE, then nothing else matters.

All else being equal, for a bullet strike in a fatal, but non-CNS region, BIGGER CALIBER and FASTER are BETTER.

What Saeed says is not what you get from blokes who live in Northern Territory and shoot heaps of buffalo. They basically echo what Michael Robinson says and both on velocity and calibre.

Same seems to be the case with scrub bulls which are shot in big numbers.

Something here that might ne different is as a group Australians are "shooters" not "hunters" and big numbers is what is wanted so shot placement might be less than precise

We followed some buffalo once, caught up with them in long grass and thick bush.

A few minutes later, and after 3 shots, we had three bulls down.

I suppose someone using a 500 NE would have had all three bulls dead with one shot!

Saeed, again, I do not doubt you for one second.

I once killed two buff in 10 seconds.

Where they stood when shot is where they died.

It did require two .509” diameter 570 grain Barnes TSX bullets at 2,500 fps and with over 8,000 ft.-lbs. of ME.

NOT in brain or spine.

Mike,

Non of the three I mentioned above were shot in the brain or spine.

300 grains of 0.37485 caliber bullets did the trick.

I know the exact diameter because I make them precisely for my rifle!

Made one at a time.

From nothing special, just a normal 12mm copper rods originally made for earthing purposes on low cost buildings, made in India, very cheap.

Shot from a rifle made by a totally unqualified gunsmith.

Never had any training!

Bloody hell, from the amount of hunting I and so many of my friends have done with this combination, at least half of us should have been trampled to death!

The other half should be in wheelchairs or on crutches!

If we listened to the BIGGER IS BETTER brigade

quote:

Bloody hell, from the amount of hunting I and so many of my friends have done with this combination, at least half of us should have been trampled to death!The other half should be in wheelchairs or on crutches!If we listened to the BIGGER IS BETTER brigade

No most likely the critters would be just as dead and you and your friends would be just as alive and well.

But no need to put logic and common sense into the argument.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
A .30-06 and a .375 are all anyone needs.
But, it's not what we need,it's what we want. That's why I hunt with a .600 much of the time.
Cal

Unless you have a .280 or .300WM you really like....

Cal is such a bad shot, like his hero, he needs an anti tank gun to kill anything!

Remember the silly video posted here of Mark Sullivan and his useless client shooting an ear tagged, farm bred buffalo, several times with a 500, and having to chase it for hours afterwards.

Real hunters, those who actually have brains - unlike the ones whose brains have been re-arranged by excessive recoil- use a proper gun for the job at hand!

From what I can see, if you use a .375 for buff or elephant you are required to leave a bigger tip.

quote:

From what I can see, if you use a .375 for buff or elephant you are required to leave a bigger tip.

Wow, Definitely the first time I've ever heard anything like that.

I have a tape sent to me by one of the hunters I sent to Africa, It clealy shows they shot a Buffalo bull and knocked him down in the hips, 12 shots later he finally died as he dragged his back side around looking for the source of his pain.They were shooting a 470 and a 500 NE..

When a buffalo bull survives that first shot for any length of time, then the shit hits the fan, he is a Sherman tank, and 50 gallons of adrenaline does make a difference..In such a case I would prefer a 577 I suppose, in the meantime I would use a .375, 404, 416, 9.3x62, all great calibers..I did use a 450-400 double and loved it, later a Searcy 470 and loved it to..Im not particularly into this or that caliber, Im more into proper bullet construction. Ive been in two and a half buffalo charges, nothing really changed, I shot well in those instances as most do..I would be satified with a 375 and I can name quite a number of PHs and old elephant hunters who swear by it, just like a number of guides in the USA that pack a 30-30 for elk backup..oh my God!! you say, well it works and I have used it.

To each his own, but the most important thing of all is know your own ability, if so you got it figured out..shoot what works for you and you only..If I was worried about a 375 Id use a 30-06 and do well I suspect.

Welll its bedtime, the campfire has burned down the sundowners are done, the guns and hunting agruements are done and never the twine shall meet..Good night gentlemen Im going to listen to the Lions coughing..Been a great show..

Of course you do. Where is the fun in one gun?

Three bulls, four shots with my .505 SRE, 570 grain bullet at 2150 fps, same as the .500 NE. I might have been able to do the same with my .458 WM or even my .375 H&H, but the .505 is the one I'm comfortable with.

Bill,

That front buffalo sure has a small body.

HA HA.

Bill was Saeed before Saeed.

Rip ...

That's what happens when you use too much gun!! best a 375 in the future!

I have decided to start championing the 9.3x62mm Mauser so as to not appear like such a showoff with my .458 Winchester Magnum Overkiller.
Another sensible combo for when you cannot take two rifles of same sensible .375-caliber chambering:
9.3x62mm and .458 WIN.

Rip ...

RIP,
Age is improving your wisdom, I knew it would in time, I had faith in you all along..

I ve been busy during CoV and only read this thread now. Lots of good opinions but to add my two cents it all depends of what the NEED is. I ve shot buffalo with .375 and if an open longer shot is available, it’s certainly accurate, especially for spine and brain shots. And indeed probably pretty good for a charging brain shot, given it swings easily, but I ve not tried that and I m sure others have. No need for .600. My favorite hunting rifles are .375/Gibbs 505 and very accurate long range. However I ve shot buffalo through the heart left ventricle with .375 and they ve still run 120 yards. I ve also shot them with Gibbs .505 and anchored them with rear quartering shots and then finished them off, and without ideal shots they did not run as far. Nevertheless, in later years I wanted to get really close, smell them, hear them, in denser cover, and since I don’t have a problem with recoil or accuracy, I ve gone in tight with a NE .577 double. In those circumstances, they often started running, and the shots were not ideal always, and even with heart shots, with them pumping adrenaline, they have made 30-40 yards but never more. My only dead right there has been with shoulder spine shot on a sleeping bull and I don’t think it would have made any difference with a good bullet .375-.577. Let me add, since many rely on their PH, I have several times been in the position where a PH has not been there to back me up. I felt more comfortable with my double, but for a charge, I m sure a .375 double with solid brain shots would be fine, but I’d course a double with no Scope! In the wonderful book on buffalo hunting, Nyati, the authors say the rule of thumb is that with a .375 a buffalo will run 150 yards, 4s 100 yards and .5s 50 yards. I ve found that to be true, excepting brain or spinal shots. So shooting brain or spine like our host Saaed, .375 is plenty; but up close or running, not ideal shots, .5s are better like Michael R and Bill say. Again and again, what can you handle accurately with a good bullet?

PS I have a .458 Lott , but never used it for DG. Easy to carry and lethal, but it’s for deer hunting!

PS while the .458 Lott is easy to carry I ve never used it for Africa DG but as the .577 gets heavier for a full day, it may become the choice

Saeed does have a point, but I do think at some point big matters - soldiers have survived for periods of time having been hit by a .30 bullet to the chest. But no one survives a 120mm tank round to chest, abdomen, or upper leg. Think about shooting a prairie dog with a varmint bullet in the guts...it doesn't hit the "vitals" but instant evisceration results in instant death.

Granted, that is a bit of a hyperbole, and I am not implying a bigger bullet in the guts of a buffalo works, but at some point big bullets do a better job, all else equal. I don't know if that bigger bullet is .5, .7, or 120 mm. I have shot all my buffalo with a .416 - worked every time, so I have no reason to go bigger (plus the .416 is my upper limit of no braked rifle recoil).

Comparing a .30-caliber bullet wound to a 120mm artillery "wound" on a man:

quote:

Granted, that is a bit of a hyperbole ...

Ya think ? I agree !

Rip ...

I still don't know why we haven't moved this to the medium bore section ...

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
I still don't know why we haven't moved this to the medium bore section ...

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
I still don't know why we haven't moved this to the medium bore section ...

We are in the 21 century.

And our advance in both intelligence and ballistics have shown us that a 375 is big enough to kill any animal that walks this earth.

So as the BigBore forum deals with guns specifically for this matter, we discuss it here.

Of course, as we are only humans, certain sections of humanity are just too stupid to see this fact.

We actually have brainless idiots, who claim to talk to buffalo and ask them in what manner they wish to die, and they use a size twice as big as the 375.

That is why they wounded it in the first place.

Those of us who shoot our animals with a 375, do need to get into all these Hollywood shenanigans!

We leave that to the likes of Mark Sullivan and Kim Kardashian!

The fakes who provide us with endless entertainment while displaying the empty space between their ears!