Use enough gun, has been quoted for quite some time.
Now, bullets are becoming better and better, both solids and expanding, and powders are much more effective than 50 years ago.
Yet, the cartridges are getting bigger and bigger. We see cartridges like the .585Nyati, .550Magnum, .577 TR, .600 OK, and people talk about them as if they are not just usable, but darn near a must for the dark continent.
.470 Mbogo and .458 Lott are almost marginal.
I have never been to Africa, but I have built and shot a few boomers. I have a lot of respect for those who have constructed theese cartridges and built the rifles for them. They must be a blast on the range, what I question is their need on the hunt.
I agree that the really big ones probably can be learned to controle, but it takes a lot of shooting. But then, after one can controle them, how much do one have to work out to carry them 10 miles a day, and still be on full alert for a quick shot?
And why, when a lighter gun in a lighter caliber will kill them just as dead?

I am not trying to take the fun out of big bores, but do we really need bigger guns than they did 50 years ago?

If it is just for the fun and for the hell of it, I'll buy it and cheer it!
If really needed, I'd like to hear some arguments.

Thanks,

When we read about folks being successful shooting all the big five with the 9.3 X 62 it does make one wonder how much is enough for sure!

Then we recall the exploits of Karamogo Bell and we ask ourselves if larger calibers make up for poor placement? No, lets not go there!

Just one guys opinion here, ok? Enough, differs by each person. It has to do with how much one can handle. If you can truly handle a .375 H&H then it's enough. If you can truly handle a .416 Rigby then it's enough, etc.

For me, Hollands .375 is enough and it also gives me substantial range for plains game.

With quality slugs available today? The .375 Holland should have plenty of KO, easier to shoot well then rest of those Big Berthas.

Great topic Bent,

Everything we need was invented before 1940. A few of those cartridges just needed modern slow burning powders to come into their own.

I think the question is just a little bit different for hunting versus professional hunter for back-up.

Also, from what I read here (I DO NOT KNOW MYSELF!), it seems that if elephant are on the menu there are further considerations.

I find that my .416 rifles (Remington Mag and Rigby) are not too heavy, don't recoil too much, and do a good job.

Every few months I fall in love with a new cartridge. Most of those cartridges are about the same. I think if I was sensible (heaven forbid that should ever happen), I would pick from 375 Weatherby; 9,3 x 70; 9,3 x 64; 416 Rem mag, 416 Rigby, 416 Taylor; etc. and just use that one rifle for everything.

The newer bullets make life easier.

LD

It is NOT the game that requires these big bullets-it is the HUNTERS!

Bent,
great topic..

and you are right, as things improve "big bores" can get smaller...

for example

BP cases/ Pre- Nitro Powder/pre CHEAP jacketed bullets
the 4bore was a HEAVY, the 8 was a heavy, and the 577 was a heavy medium and the 500 Express was basically a 30-06 (to misquote Ross on the latter)

enter nitro powder and cupronickle bullets..

the 577 is a stopper, the 500 is a heavy, and the lower 400s are heavy mediums (a full .100 smaller than previously... but no one would have cansidered the 375 and 366 anything but mediums...

entire the DARK ages of rifle shooting... where everyone wanted a 30, and didn't want any recoil... until St Elmer Emerged!!!

sorry... comic relief moment...

Now adays, people have excellent bullets to choose from, and we have had 40 years of gunwriters telling us how much the 375HH kicked, and how fierce the recoil it.. and the african game laws that basically say 9,3x62 or larger for large heavy game...

so we get down the THE DGR formula...
bullet weight 300+
sd near .300+
mv minimum 2000-(sd-.300) (to include the 600NE)
assuming good bullets...

I would FAR rather have a small 40 with barnes X bullets, for all around hunting, than an 8 bore with hard casts for a stopping rifle...

So, powders and bullets have made the AFFECT of the rifle better, obviating the need for a "thumb" bore, and we are just down to "pinky" finger bores... that is, you can't stick your thumb in the barrel... well, some folks can in the 550s

all that said, that just makes the effects fo the 550s that much more awesome!!
jeffe

I agree with everything that has been stated above, mostly with the part of being able to handle a big bore in the field. Anyone can stand behind one of these rifles and mash the trigger, but can one really shoot a big bore. Once someone finds the recoil limit then that is enough gun for that individual. I think mostly these big cannons are out there is because, like myself, some guys are just gun nuts. Of course a guy could use one rifle for almost 95% of thier hunting, but what fun would that be. Also for those guys who can shoot one of these cannons, why not use them. At least for me, I need to spice up the hunting now and then with a new rifle/cartridge.

I think these monster guns are around just for fun. If you're going to Africa on what would for me be the hunt of a lifetime why not take a gun that you'll really enjoy useing. I hunt moose and elk with guns that most consider too big but give me a ton of enjoyment to carry and work very well. Do you need 8000+ ft/lbs, not likely, do you want it, if so take it.

some hunt deer with the 50 bmg.

are deer armor plated? no but it makes it fun for some.

some just are not satisfied with the death of the game they want to turn it inside out. if the cape buff could talk they would like it to say " no more sir...please!" if the animal does nothing less than red mist and fall in its shadow they think something is wrong with the bullet or placement.

some just like to be different and make the hunt more interesting, kinda like a gambler upping the stakes.

i dont think we need anything bigger or faster than a 500 nitro. but that does not stop them.

others go the other way using handguns, bows, spears and yes 45-70's

to each his own...

It seems that most of the old-time African hunters used the most gun they could handle. For me it's the 416's when considering recoil, rifle weight, and the effect on game.

Others used small calibers but relied on their marksmanship (or luck) to get them by, which is not necessarily easy to achieve these days with "limited" hunting opportunities in life and death situations.

Most can get by, in other than wounded DG follow-ups, with the smaller calibers because there is another hunter along, the PH.

My number one concern in picking a DG rifle caliber is safety and secondly one that I can handle profeciently. A caliber that may be safe for one species under certain habitat conditions may not be safe under different circumstances. As an example, when I was booking my first elephant hunt, a 21 day tuskless hunt at Charissa I contacted Graham Hingston manager of HHK safaris. His first question to me was 'What caliber rifle will you be using?" When I told him I would be using a 465 double and a 458 Lott bolt he agreed to the hunt. He would not have booked me for an early season hunt (thick vegetation) for hunting around dangerous cow herds if I was using a light caliber. For buff that typically run from you at first sight, smell or hearing and elephant bulls in open forest the 9.3 or 375 are probably safe enough. In the jess, I prefer something with much more stopping power. The 40's are mrginal and the 450s and above are prefered for me. When rifle weight gets above 10 1/2 lbs, necessary for rifles of 500 caliber or larger, they become too much of a chore to carry and I want my rifle in my hands at all times and not on a trackers shoulders.

I don't buy the theory that you can use a smaller rifle because you have a PH with a larger caliber to back you up. I have seen them miss, not be in a postiion to help out or have a rifle malfunction. I want to have a rifle large enough to handle any emergency on my own.

465H&H

When up against elephant, buffalo or hippo on land, I want the biggest and most powerful rifle I can carry all day and shoot quickly and accurately.

I have hunted big, thick-skinned DG with a .375 H&H Mag., a .416 Rigby, a .458 Lott and a .500 A-Square.

For me, right now in my life, my ideal rifle for such animals is the last one on the list: A twelve pound .500 A-Square throwing 570-600 grain bullets at 2,200-2,400 fps.

It's undoubtedly more powerful than necessary for most situations. But, as a general matter, when hunting DG, I'd rather have "too much" than "barely enough" or "too little" power at my disposal.

And in some cases, such as a close range elephant, buff or hippo charge, with no time for a second shot and no back up, I would suggest that my .500 might be very necessary. In that kind of situation, as has been said, there is no such thing as too much gun.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

I don't buy the theory that you can use a smaller rifle because you have a PH with a larger caliber to back you up. I have seen them miss, not be in a postiion to help out or have a rifle malfunction. I want to have a rifle large enough to handle any emergency on my own.

465H&H

I'm not sure there is any such rifle that will handle all emergencies. I've seen 460 Wby's that had no effect whatsoever.

And it also depends on the situation. 99.99% of all ele bulls will turn tail at the slightest sign of danger, and few tourist-hunters will ever experience a charge by a bull. The same is true for buff. It is just that 99.99% of the time in a non-charge, non-follow-up situation one can get by with little cartridges. It is not that I am recommending it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Use enough hun,

Thanks,

Bent,

Being of direct Hun ancestry. I have to agree with you. If you want to get the job done right use a big Hun!

That's what she said anyway.

But,

In all seriousness,

There is nothing on this planet I wouldn't hunt with a properly set up .375H&H with proper bullets. I can and do shoot a .458Lott and .470NE just as well as I do a .375H&H. I usually choose either of the larger on a dedicated DG hunt. I usually choose the .375 on an African hunt that is not entirely focused on DG but is conducted in DG country. This only because if the additional range a .375 affords a hunter.

Never been to Africa, but own a 300 WSM, a 9.3x64 and soon a 416 Rigby. For all hunting applications here in B.C., the 300 is perfect! So why the bigger bores? I have to say want, more than anything. Also should a grizz get too close( if I can smell his breath) I want hitting power!

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:

If really needed, I'd like to hear some arguments.

The only time it would be really needed is on a charge where you miss the brain, but the big bullet of an ultra big bore has enough shock to stun or turn the animal. For everyday hunting, the .458's and .470's are fine and dandy.

That does not happen very often. And if the gun is too heavy to carry on a stalk, then there will not be a shot fired in the first place.

The biggest gun you can shoot well, shot well. There is no game that won't succumb to a properly placed shot from a 40 caliber launching a good 400 gr bullet 2400 fps.

Now, if your shot is slightly off, then you may have enough collatoral damage from a 50 cal on up to make up the difference. That said, there are damn few people that can fire those big guns just as accurately.

Sans muzzlebrake and reasonable weight, I can fire a 40 from any field position and totally ignore the recoil. With a 458 Lott on up, I can fire the gun from various positions without flinching, but I have to put extra mental effort into squezing off a round, as I have to prepare for the recoil.

Everything is a tradeoff, and when you sacrifice shootability you need to think long and hard. A poorly placed shot from a 577 NE is much less effective than a good shot from a 40.

Well, after shooting a 500 Nitro Express, it's not that bad, and, in a double, it's very comforting.
I suspect the drive to bigger guns comes from close encounters of paws, claws, horns, and tusks.

"Once you are among them, there is NEVER enough gun!"

Rings true for me. One factor is things happen VERY fast. Lions, leopards, bears, and buffalo,
arrive VERY quickly. That actually sort of makes an argument for one of the lighter calibers, and guns, like the 458 Lott, 450 Nitro Express 2.
With 500 grain bullets, at 2200 fps, they are the standard all others are compared to. In a 10 pound rifle, recoil isn't all that bad.

While I'd like a bigger case, I'll settle for the 458 Lott as my ideal between recoil, and stopping power. For a very long time, 500 grain bullets have been the threshold of stopping power. Don't ask me why, just ask the guys who have used them, for the last 100 years, on dangerous game. I also don't see why you can't use 350 grain bullets in 458 for long range plains game, either.

GS

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
I suspect the drive to bigger guns comes from close encounters of paws, claws, horns, and tusks.

"Once you are among them, there is NEVER enough gun!"

GS

Maybe, but I have been among them and a good .450 is enough gun. Personally, I think the drive to bigger guns comes from daydreams about close encounters. I've had one of those close encounters and a .40 caliber put an end to it but the PH was a better shot than I was. Not that my shot was bad, you understand, but it wasn't neurological and when things go south, that's what you have to be able to do. A big .45, on the other hand, "numbs buffalo" as Boddington so aptly put it. Would a .50 do better? Can't say. Don't own one. A .450 Rigby, though, makes a very serious statement.

I have been expounding the light gun, BIG Cannon, accurate shooting principal for many many years. Been to Africa 8 times and have shot damn near everything on 4 continents. have the taxidermy bills to prove it too! You carry em way more than you shoot em and even the .600OK( with loads only 200fps faster than the old .600NE) is really pretty tame. If you can't keep all your shots on a paper plate offhand at 50 yrds you should not be hunting dangerous game. Period. If you can, then pack the biggest caliber you can shoot accurately! I'm not a believer in my PH having to bail me out and the effect of a really big bore shot on even big, pissed off game has to be seen to be believed. I also don't like to follow-up wounded pissed off critters in the dark so absorbing a little recoil seems to me to be a no-brainer. Will smaller calibers work, sure is it as much fun? Not for me. -Rob

Theory-theory- theory! Not to hijack the thread, How many reading this forum has used a over 50 cal on dangerous game in Africa. I have and was never in a good position to use it therefore, used my 416 Taylor with scope to do the deed. The rifle I carried and hoped to use was a 10.0 lb. 505 Gibbs which killed at both ends. All of this hoopla about something that might happen. Many of the incidents we read on the forum about deaths and injury are in fact about either carelessness or a situation getting out of hand. I submit that if you want a firearm that will do it all under all conditions that you will need a field piece and then it simply will not be mobile or flexible enough to cover all permutations.

Big guns are for big dreamers and I say that if that is the reason for your choice then that is fine. Keep the dream alive any way you can.

following the medium bore is all you need theory assumes: that you are a great shot, cool under pressure (like a buff closing fast at 15 feet), and that your PH is moreso. The same theory should hold for home and auto insurance...
I don't carry auto insurance for me, I have it for the rest of you out there that may or may not be as competent and alert as I am. the under 50 calibers all do the job, my gosh the guy at the cattle slaughterhouse uses 22 blanks in a magnum nailgun.
Of course, he doesn't just walk out to the pen and start popping those 1500-2000 pound range steers/bulls. Little rifles just have no margin for error. I bust a cap on a nice buff at about 50 yards with my 375 Improved and the buff goes down. We pose for pictures, me with my 375 and a good cigar. All is golden, until the buff I shot had the bullet exit and it wounds his big brother. He and Uncle Earl decide to make an object lesson of me and the PH. AT fifteen feet and 1.3 nano-seconds away we do not have time to pick up our rifles, and...fill in the blanks on a couple death certificates. Heck, I can kill anything that walks the earth with my old model 70 30-06 and some AP ammunition I bought in stripper clips. Why can't I use that on Elephant or Cape Buffalo?

regards,

Rich

If I can hit a 9" pie plate at 50 yards 3 times in six seconds it is the perfect DGR rifle for ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Does that plate have horns?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
following the medium bore is all you need theory assumes: that you are a great shot, cool under pressure (like a buff closing fast at 15 feet), and that your PH is moreso. (sic)

The only way to 100% stop a charging buff close in is to brain it. To say a solid from a 40 has no margin of error, but the bigger stuff does really doesn't wash. Either you punch a hole in the brain or you miss. Lights out only comes from precise shot placement and reliable deep penetration. I'd say nearly 100 years of field use says a 400 gr 40 is always enough for that situation.

Brent,

I have never hunted Africa, but like others, I enjoy shooting the bigger bores as long as you can do it with reasonable accuracy and can take the recoil. I will be the first to admit that WANT has alot more to do with it than actual NEED. It is fun to shoot the big stuff, it always gets my adrenoline going anyway.

Need?

The biggest gun I need to do all of the hunting that I do and have done in the last 35 years would be my 308 Win.

But, I find that I need my 7 mm Mag, my 300 WSM and my 375 H&H.

Like I tell my wife, Need ain't got nothing to do with.

There you go, It really comes down to bragging rights. My rifle is bigger than yours is. All in all, most of my rifle collection is in really big bore rifles for dangerous game and that is what I am interested in. I live my dream every day that I work on those rifles or loads or scopes.It is what motivates me to work the hours I work for the crappy pay I get. It makes me happy and my wife loves it also.

If I venture a guess, I'd say 500 Grains was thinking of elephants when he posted about a bigger bore knocking down or turning a charge when a smaller bore wouldn't.

And he is right, imo. There is a reason that 450 NE and up were considered big bores and charge stoppers. FWIW, I have twice knocked an elephant down with close but not perfect brain shots using a 458wm shooting a 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2050fps. 500Grains has done it as well with his 500NE. In videos, I have seen elephants killed with near miss shots with big bores and elephants knocked down or out as well.

Zim Parks records show some facts central to this discussion. First is that it is ussually not the elephant being hunted that causes problems but either another elephant accompanying the hunted elephant or a suprise attack from an elephant. Second is the statistics for escaping harm from a bad encounter with an elephant show that all hunters using 375H&H's were either seriously injured or killed, and that the chances of escaping either serious harm or death only increased beyond 50/50 when the hunter was using a 458 or bigger bore rifle.

So far as stopping a buff without a CNS hit, I have seen it in a number of instances in Mark Sulivan's videos alone. This leads me to believe that it happens regularly, at least when the shooter is using rifles in the calibre range that Mark Sulivan used in his videos, which runs from about 450NE to 600NE. I have seen it once in a video when the hunter and PH were both using 470's as well. A shot from each stopped the buff, which remained on his feet, but just couldn't continue. He was killed by a brain shot by the PH using his second barrel, iirc.

I would hunt buff or elephants with a 375H&H, but I will always feel better with a .458" 480 grain bullet or better. When you are close, and the elephants are grumpy, any rifle will feel too small.

Recoil is something that, with practice and persistance, you can learn to live with. 20years ago I thought a 30-06 kicked alot.

JPK

Ahhhh, Paul,

my 30-06 with ap bullets will do the brain shot as well. And, I have some military 22 Hornet 35gr fmj that will penetrate deeply enough. Where each of us draws the line at "big enough" has to be a pretty much unassailable decision. The ivory trade was accomplished with mostly eight-bores. In my personal opinion the Buff/Ele/Rhino should not be shot with anything smaller than a 45 caliber rifle. But, that's just me... and that opinion and three dollars american will get you a take out at Starbucks.

regards,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
There you go, It really comes down to bragging rights.

For some people, maybe. But you paint with way too broad a brush.

Was Jimmy Sutherland after bragging rights? Samuel Baker? Arthur Neumann? Edouard Foa? John Hunter? The dozens of other old time elephant hunters who opted for the biggest and most powerful rifles they could carry and shoot quickly and accurately?

I don't think so. I think they were more after just trying to stay alive.

The dead don't brag, of course, so you may have a small point there, somewhere.

Never been to Africa. Most likely never will. But just last week I stood 20 feet in front of a bull elephant mount at Cabela's. I said to my wife " How'd ya like to be standing right here with a rifle and he's pissed off........knowing you've got a couple seconds to stop him??" Gimme the biggest sonofabitch I can stand to pull the trigger on, brother!!

I was reading Samuel Bakers book In The Heart Of Africa awhile back.

He'd just discovered that the rifle he had been using in India, on cow elephants, wouldn't penetrate to the brain on cow African elephants. This revelation nearly cost him his life. Wonder how many other hunters had similar revelations, as they got tossed 40 feet in the air, or kneed to death?

Darwin is seriously at work in the old days, with hunters. The idiots died. Good men died, learning lessons. Lucky men lived, learning the same lessons. Some of those lucky men conveyed the information in writing, letting others learn from their luck, and mistakes.

Best example I can think of is this thread. JPK and 500 Grains have been there, done it. In another thread, a medium sized brown bear took a 375 Rum, and a 458 Lott, and took off running. Took 5 more shots to finish the bear. I've got a friend that knocked a 1600 pound beefalo down, with a 450 Nitro 2, that was trying to knock over a truck, and, was trying to gore him on the ground, after he jumped down. Finished him with a brain shot, as he bounced right back off the ground. Still, that extra bit of time gave a well placed second shot a chance.

One can either listen, or, rely on the pro hunter to save your bacon. I guess that's the real saddness of hunting in Africa. If not for professional hunters, we would have a lot more dead idiot hunters. Thinning the herd, taking out the stupid, improving the bred. Also, perhaps the idiots would be more inclined to listen, with a higher mortality rate, and no one to bail them out of their stupidity. Besides, I think it would be good for hunting. Put the paw and claw back in hunting...;-)

GS

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
There you go, It really comes down to bragging rights.

For some people, maybe. But you paint with way too broad a brush.

Was Jimmy Sutherland after bragging rights? Samuel Baker? Arthur Neumann? Edouard Foa? John Hunter? The dozens of other old time elephant hunters who opted for the biggest and most powerful rifles they could carry and shoot quickly and accurately?

I don't think so. I think they were more after just trying to stay alive.

The dead don't brag, of course, so you may have a small point there, somewhere.

Lets face it folks. Many of the dangerous stuff was hunted with state of the art weaponry of the time. Some made due with what they could either find or feed. That changed with the advent of smokeless powder nitro express cartridges. Today, whom among us would choose a 4 bore single shot rifle weighing 16 lbs. to a 470 NE or even a 458 win mag. weighing 12 lbs or less. The Mark Sullivan stuff is, of course, misleading. Often he shoots his animals with solids and they will never do the damage that an expanding solid or a good soft will do. I have killed 4 buffalo with one shot hits. Is it luck, I doubt it as all have been different presentations as well as different distances. They were shot with state of the art bullets. GS customs and North Fork cup point solids. No excuses here. I wanted them dead right there. I used the perfect weapon with the perfect bullet and the deed was done. Give me the biggest gun I can handle easily, of course. Can I do a better job with a 50 cal.? I think so if I can place a quality bullet accurately in the vitals and have the ability to follow up if necessary. Those incidental charges by rogue/unseen animals not the primary beast, well shit happens and one can Never be totally prepared for every eventuality. That in my opinion is a pipe dream regardless of caliber you choose.

GS,

My elephant hunting experience is little compared to Will's. Will has used 416's, 470, 458 Lott as I recall. Will is a fan of a light rifle, too light for my taste. As big a fan as Will is of his very light 416 Taylor, he is searching for a bigger calibre, better alternative.

Mrlexma has also successfully hunted elephant. He is in the big bore camp. 500 Grains has shot more than ten, and is in the big bore camp.

450 NE No2 has shot four, I belive with his 450 NE No2, and one with his 9.3x74R. So he is in both camps.

So there is a range of opinion on the topic.

This fall I'll be hunting elephants again and I'll be using my 458 double rifle, this time with 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2140fps (up 90fps or more from previous) and also with 450gr North Fork flat nosed solids at 2190fps.

I will also kill at least one tuskless with a 375H&H using a 300gr Woodleigh solid at 2450fps if I have the right chance.

A whole bunch of odd opportunities coming together has given me a once in a lifetime shot at hunting one bull elephant and seven tuskless elephants. I hope my legs hold up! By the end of this trip I may even join Will in the search for ever lighter rifles! I do wish that I could try several different rifles including the 375H&H, the 416's, 458, 476WR and 500NE, unfortunately, logistics limit me to the two I have.

JPK

Talk is cheap! You guys NEED to see the difference a /.577NE, .600Ne or a .600Ok makes on game. Then you will understand. Till then its all Bench talk. Sorry, but unless you really have that experience your just taking smak! Sorry but armchair experience doesn't count for crap in my book! Till you've been there and done that, its just pure BS.Post pics of the supposed 30-06/.375 H&H brain shot for example to prove me wrong. So far I've never seen one! No hypothetical POSSIBILITIES lets see some real Kills. I'm waiting . Just challenging the wannabes/never been there/done that but have a strong opinion crowd- a little.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
How many reading this forum has used a over 50 cal on dangerous game in Africa.

I have. But only the 585 nyati and the 500 NE.

lb404,

For every unfortunate facing an elephant attack with a 375H&H, being prepared was indeed a pipedream.

But for more than half of the fellows facing the same problem with 458 and bigger bore rifles, being prepared wasn't a pipe dream, it was a reality.

I've only used solids on buff, except for one, they didn't live long enough even to bellow. The other one didn't bellow either but took some tracking because of a very poor shot before he was killed, with solids. Just to see the difference, I will try to take the one buff I have quota for this fall with a soft. It'll be a 500 gr .458" Woodleigh.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Talk is cheap! You guys NEED to see the difference a /.577NE, .600Ne or a .600Ok makes on game. Then you will understand. Till then its all Bench talk. Sorry, but unless you really have that experience your just taking smak! Sorry but armchair experience doesn't count for crap in my book! Till you've been there and done that, its just pure BS.Post pics of the supposed 30-06/.375 H&H brain shot for example to prove me wrong. So far I've never seen one! No hypothetical POSSIBILITIES lets see some real Kills. I'm waiting . Just challenging the wannabes/never been there/done that but have a strong opinion crowd- a little.-Rob

Amen!!!!!
Armchair skeptics and armchair experts piss me off!!

Robgunbuilder,

Don't take this the wrong way, especially since I tend toward the big bore side of the arguement, but there are at least three regular posters who have taken elephants with 375H&H's, one has done it about ten times. I have seen photos of two of the elephants killed with 375H&H's posted on AR. And there have been PH's who favored the 375H&H as well. Harry Manners comes to mind.

I'm going to try it this fall too, just to see how it goes.

Personally, based on my limited experience, I think its too light, especially in the thick stuff. And I don't get the 416's either. I'd rather give up some velocity, and maybe some penetration, to shoot a heavier bigger calibre bullet. So long as the cartridge and bullet combination has enough penetration to reach the brain, even if shooting through a good length of trunk it seems to me to be enough penetration. Use the rest of the energy to drive a bigger, heavier bullet.

JPK