quote:

Originally posted by JPK:


In videos, I have seen elephants killed with near miss shots with big bores and elephants knocked down or out as well.


JPK

If you are talking about that bull in Buzz's video where the missed brain shot killed that bull, you should have seen the rest of that sequence. That bull had been shot full of holes and knocked down at least once, as I recall, and I suspect that the bullet was deflected after it hit the bull's skull and actually hit the brain.

I did the same thing on a running cow once, where the shot was about 2" low and she dropped dead, from a wayward bullet. Hey, straight line penetration isn't everything!

Placement, Penetration, and Power (Energy). They all count. And all are needed.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

And I don't get the 416's either. I'd rather give up some velocity, and maybe some penetration, to shoot a heavier bigger calibre bullet. So long as the cartridge and bullet combination has enough penetration to reach the brain, even if shooting through a good length of trunk it seems to me to be enough penetration. Use the rest of the energy to drive a bigger, heavier bullet.

JPK

The reason 416's have been used so extensively is that the 416's have good penetration. To get the same penetration (irrespective of the bullet design, etc.) with the bigger bore you have to drive the bullet faster and hence must accept the significantly greater recoil.

But if recoil and rilfe weight are not problems, then have at it.

Will,

On near miss kills, there are more than just that bull in Buzz's video, in particular, Norbert's tuskless that frozen and then fell over. I have done it myself too, best I could tell after cutting open the skull, and the penetration was arrow straight.

You miss my point about the 416's. Yes a heavy for calibre solid at, say, 2350fps is going to provide excellent penetration. Doesn't matter if the solid is a 400gr .416" at sd .330, 410gr .416 at .338 or a .458" 480gr at sd .327, .458" 500gr at sd .341, assuming the same shape and construction. But beyond enough penetration to reach the brain from X angle, do you really need more? Yes, the perceived recoil from the .458 calibre rifle is going to be greater, assuming similar weight rifles.

It seems to me that the better choice is to go with the bigger bullet at, say, 2100 or 2150. Same energy on target, less penetration potential, greater stopping power, not a lot of recoil difference.(haven't shot a 450NE or 458wm loaded to 2100 or 2150 side by side with a 416? so my impression of recoil from the two is suspect)

History seems to bear out the bigger, albeit slower, bullet is the better stopper. The 416 was never a popular calibre in Africa until Remington brought theirs out, but the 450's and 465's and 470's were. Seems that the 416 is a calibre for the times, meaning a cape buffalo round that can be used successfully for elephants, not an elephant round that can also be used for buffalo.

JPK

I am one of those that has never used a 50 or larger casliber to kill an elephant or buff but I have killed one elephant with a 458 Win, several with the 458 Lott , several more with the 465 Nitro and 2 with the 470 Nitro. I have also seen 2 charges stopped, one with a 450/400 and another stopped and turned with a 375 H&H. Another killed with a 416 Rigby. I don't need to use the the 500 or larger to know that they are not for me. I am sure that they are wonderful stoppers and probably better stoppers than the calibers I use but I can't carry the extra weight on long hot treks through the jesse. 10 1/2lbs is about my limit of rifle weight to carry all day and to be able to use effectively at the end of the day.

Here is a pic for Robogunbuilder of a cow elephant was was stooped and turned in a vicious and determined charge at 6 paces by a 375H&H that missed the brain. As a side note, notice the bullet hole in the right shoulder. That bullet went through the top of the heart and killed the cow.



465H&H

465H&H,

So where do you settle on the recoil/rifle weight/bullet weight/velocity contineum? If not on the 500+ end then at the 458-470 range or toward the 416 or 375 end? What do you think makes a "reliable" stopper?

BTW, your photo doesn't show.

JPK

Here is what makes me comfortable when hunting elephants in the jesse. A double in any caliber from 450 Nitro up to 475 Nitro using 480 to 520 grain bullets at over 2100 fps. Alternatively, a bolt rifle at least 458 caliber using a minimum of a 480 to 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps to 2250 fps. In my Lott I prefer to use the 550 grain Woodleigh at 2150 fps as there is a noticeable increase in penetration and thump over the 500 grain at 2300 fps. Anything over 10 1/2 lbs in weight is more than I can comfortably carry all day. While the 375 calibers can work there isn't enough of a margin of safety in stopping a charge to make me comfortable. The same applys but to a much lesser degree with the big 40s. That's my formula and it has worked for me. Use what works for you.

465H&H

465H&H,

Really? Can you really see the difference between 500 and 550 gr. bullets in the Lott?

465H&H,

And by the way, you need about 2200 fps with the 550 gr. bullet to get the same horsepower as the 500 gr. bullet at 2300 fps.

But do not let that influence your conclusions.

Well what you are really seeing, is economics at work here. From its into to about 1980, Rigby made all of 180 rifles in 416 Rigby, want to guess how many Ruger will make in a month? The thing is a lot of hunters can afford to buy and shoot a specialized cartridge and make no mistake, once you get pass 375 its specialized. Never mind that with the bullets to be had now, you will be fine for all the heavy game hunting that is left to be had with a 375 H+H. Since time began man has tried to build a better mouse trap, some times he did and other times like the guy who came up the the 700 Nitro Express so he could do a one upsmanship on a punch line of a joke. The fact of the matter he had the money to play with, we got a new cartridge for doubles and guess what they been making them. Never mind that most will never leave the rack or even see a rifle range, not the point never been, just having the biggest on the block. People are like that, Now look at Nation States or Nation States Want to be's same thing. So the idea of having to carry one for a week or two in 90 degrees of heat and humidity and being able to shoot quick and accurately has really nothing to do with either the demand or the motive.

George,

Couldn't disagree more. Plenty of 450NE's, 450 No2's, some 500/450's and 500/465's, plenty of 470's...Every one of those cost more than a 416 back then. For that matter, plenty of 450/400's and 404's, originally both a step down from the 416.

Today, pelenty of 458's and a RSM in a Lott doesn't cost more than a 416, so it more than just economics.

So far as big DG opportunities today, well there are plenty. And cost is pretty reasonable too. Not many working stiff's going on safari in 1920 or 1930 or 1950 or 1960...Plenty going now.

I think highly of the 375H&H and it will do for anything, but unless you've been in close with elephants, especially in the thick stuff, you can't believe how much you'll be wishing you had more gun. As I noted earlier Zim Parks statistics reveal that in bad elephant encounters every hunter carrying a 375H&H was killed or seriously injured. Odds of making it without being killed or injured improved to better than 50/50 once the rifle was a 458 or better.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
465H&H,

Really? Can you really see the difference between 500 and 550 gr. bullets in the Lott?

WIll,
I can REALLY feel the difference in 665 vs 700gr bullets in the 550 express.. expecially if they are loaded to the same velocity. nothing special about it, the 700s kick more
jeffe

lb404,

While I do shoot all of my stuff, I do enjoy pulling stuff out of the safe and playing with it almost every night. I also work alot of hours, guns is what keeps me sane. Its not for my wife,(who tolerates it) or my kids, it is for me and I enjoy the hell out of it. Don't get me wrong, I love being with my wife and kids, but sometimes its nice to do something just for you.

I have had a go at elephants in Namibia two times. None of them at close enough range to be of real interest. I had a 416 rem. mag. and a 375 H&H. I was not able to get close enough to shoot but I chose the 416 as it had enough grit to do the deed. Overkill is still overkill. One needs to keep everything in perspective when hunting.

lb404,

Yes, the ivory hunters used their 577's and 600's for close up work, and the rifles worked very well stopping elephants. But they had dedicated gunbearers.

Today, with PH's, I think the sport hunter is better off with a lighter rifle. But .458" to .510" in a lighter rifle isn't overkill. Even the 577 wasn't overkill, it just was added insurance for stopping elephants that needed to be stopped. Stopper rifles start at .458, imo. Either 458wm at 2050 or better. Even if you never need to stop an incoming elephant, it is nice to knock them down when all doesn't go perfectly. Also, the heavier the brush, the greater the reason to use a larger rifle, imo.

You ought to watch Buzz Charlton's DVD, if you haven't already. I lost track of how many times he said, "If the hunter had been using a rifle with a 500gr bullet, this elephant would have been knocked down, or killed..." Or, "This is an example of why it is good to 'use enough gun'..." when an elephant was dropped by a big bore rifle with a less than pefect shot.

Though I am not in Will's light rifle camp, I can see his point. Even then, rather than a .416" 400 or 410 grain bullet at 2350fps I would choose a 458wm at 2050 to 2150fps.

Perhaps the revolution in bullets going on today with the flat nosed bullets will bring you and Will into the .458" camp. The 450gr North Fork load I am taking to Africa in about three weeks recoils in a whole different and easier leaque than the 500gr bullets. 450 NE No2 used a load with the 450gr North Forks on a bull this spring that gives tweny or thirty fps more velocity than I'm going to use and he had penetration through the brain from the front and so far into the neck that he lost the bullet.

My rifle is a double so I can only load to the velocity that gets the barrels shooting together. Same with 450 NE No2. I'm getting 2190fps at the muzzle. My 500gr Woodleighs are making 2140fps. The difference in recoil is substantial. I'd bet that in a bolt 458wm you could do alot more before you run the recoil up to the level of the 500gr Woodleighs.

JPK

I beleive every can be killed with a .333 jeffery`s 300grain solids.....the bigger calibers are just "in case"

Jimmy Sutherland put a .577 NE 750 grain solid into the face of a charging elephant that kept coming and broke him up to a fare thee well.

Was that overkill?

Jens,

If one is a perfect shot I agree that a 333 Jeffery is plenty enough.

There was an ongoing argument in Magnum magazine about the effect of big bores, where one of the small bore advocates related the story of some PH=type that had dropped (brained) 5 charging elephants with his .375 H&H.

Hey, if you can be certain of the frontal brain shot it really doesn't matter much what you are using.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Jimmy Sutherland put a .577 NE 750 grain solid into the face of a charging elephant that kept coming and broke him up to a fare thee well.

Was that overkill?

There was one ocassion where he fired both barrels simultaneously, and it still got to him. Maybe the same story. What is that expression? _____ happens?

Anyone who only uses a .416 is a wimp!

I base the following few posts on my actual experiences.

I have shot 5 elephants. 4 with my 450 No2 and one with my 9,3x74R.

Personally I would never want to hunt elephants with a bolt rifle, NEVER.

I like to get close, may not be for everybody but if possible, I much prefer it.

I believe in physics...
However I also know a man has got to know his limitations.

For me I, think the best double is in the 450/475 group.

I have shot 4 different 500 Nitros and the recovery time is too long for me.

In fact I find the recoil of Doc 52's 577 to be "better" for me than the 500's.

I really like the 450 No2 cartridge. It is easy to load for. I like the .458 bore best of the .458 to .475 group.

I really like MY 450 No2.

I have found 480 Woodleighs perfectly adequate for the task of braining or body shooting elephants [and buff].
Baised on the one bull I killed with a 450 gr North Fork FP solid, I feel it penetrated deeper than the RN Woodleigh.
I also got some expansion on the Giraffe I shot at 188 yards with the North Fork Cup point solid.
I Highly recommend his Solids. I think they are perfectly safe in British doubles, assuming the bbl and the diameter of the bullet are proper.

I have felt perfectly safe while carrying my 450 No2.
I have shot one elephant at 12 yards and 3 at 6 yards or less, all brain shots. One with the 9,3x74R, more about it later.

I shot one bull walking at 120 yards. The first shot stopped him in his tracks, a low body shot that "mught" have hit the very bottom of the heart. The second shot, less than a second and a half later [it is on video] broke his left frong leg, went all the way through the leg, then through the trunk. After a momentary pause, he immediatly spun around, and started twoard us. He went a body length or two and fell down as his frong leg was broken. I ran twoard him. As he got up I brained him from about 50 or 60 yards, the shot slightly quartering, passing through the top 3" of the right tusk. He went right down. I then ran up and placed 2 Woodleigh solids into the top of the head from about 2 feet.
The Woodleigh solids did not deform in any way.

I thought I wanted a 577 or a 600, but both of my PH's have stated that the 450 No2 hits elephant like the Hammer of Thor.

In actual performance I do not think there is any difference between it and any other Nitro in the 450 to 475 class. This included JPK's 458 Double.

I shot my last elephant a cow at less than 5 yards, side brain with my 9,3x74R and a 286 gr Woodleigh Solid.
That is the only bullet I have had exit the head of an elephant.

SO... I know the 9,3 [or the 375 for that matter] can kill an elephant no problem... However I prefer the 450 No2 as it is the Hammer of Thor.

I hope to shoot an elephant with my 450/400 on my next trip.
I will have to wait and see how I "feel" when I am danger close with the 400.

I know with the 450 No2 I have NO FEAR.

We faced several false charges on my last Safari.
I truely felt that if ANY elephant had come within 6 yards, they had just commited suicide.
These charges stoopped at 10 to 12 yards.

I have complete confidence in the 450 No2.

The 9,3x74R has GREATLY impressed me as a KILLER of elephant, cape buff and giraffe, as well as ALL other game I have shot with it. It is a GREAT KILLER.
However, it is not a STOPPER.

Gents,

Thanks for all your comments.
This kind of turned into a "What caliber for ele"thread, but OK, it is our biggest prey.
I understand diameter matters, and it seems most people agree that for close combat, diameter needs to be .458 or bigger. At that range, velocity is not to important, and 2100 f/s is obviously enough.
So a .458 Winnie, or a Lott to keep preassure down and gain a few f/s. For the largest game.

I kind of thougt so.

That one, in dense cover, can yarn for a Sherman Tank, I have no problem understanding.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Anyone who only uses a .416 is a wimp!

The "EGO, or "wimp factor" should be understood. as I think it plays a more important role than most believe. Does one really think a 460 Weatherby would be owned by anyone at all if it wasn't for the fact that (at one time) it was the most powerful shoulder arm in the planet?

Also one needs to understand the "traditions" factor as that factor alone is what keeps such cartridges as the 7 X 57 and 404 Jeffery alive. Both very fine cartridges but if they was introduced today they would flop in a heartbeat.

I REALLY don't get the ragging on the Weatherby's.
As a cartridge, it's really a 416 rigby, with a belt, blown out to 458, or, in other words, a 450 Rigby with a belt. That to me, is pretty darn near perfect.. it's not a Lott, but, you can get Lott velocities REALLY easy, with very low pressure. You want to create a flat shooting 458? Start here, with
high pressure, and light bullets. Other then the rifles it's offered in, they lack proper extraction, IIRC, what's not to like???
S

Bent,

In most DG ares where you find buffalo, you find elephants. As one writer put it, "When you are in elephant country, carry an elephant rifle."

Duikerman,

500 Grains giving greif to Will, or vice versa, is nothing to get too excited about. This isn't a comment for the ages - as if any here were - its just two guys ribbing each other who don't see eye to eye on the rifle front.

GS,

This only from what I have read, so take it for what its worth - as I do, though what I've read fits with my beliefs and experience, limited as it is. The problem with Weatherbys is that in general they sacrifice bullet calibre and weight for velocity. I would rather sacrifice some of the Weatherby velocity for bullet diameter and weight.

For example, I would rather have a 30-06 than a 270 Weatherby, or a 338-06 than a 300 Weatherby. On the bigger end of the spectrum, I would rather have a 416 Remington than a 375 or 378 Weatherby, a 458wm or Lott than a 416WBY, a 500NE than a 460WBY...

Given a choice between 460WBY ballistics and a larger, heavier bullet, I'll take tha larger, heavier bullet.

In the same vein, I am currently reading Geoff Broom's book, he advocates a 450-500NE double for the sport hunter for elephant, but he chooses a 450 Dakota bolt rifle for himself, but shooting 600gr bullets.(he says he sees the same effect on game with the 600gr .458" bullets at 2150fps as he does the 570gr .510" bullets but gets better penetration with the 600gr .458" bullets - no wonder there)

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
If I venture a guess, I'd say 500 Grains was thinking of elephants when he posted about a bigger bore knocking down or turning a charge when a smaller bore wouldn't.

And he is right, imo. There is a reason that 450 NE and up were considered big bores and charge stoppers. FWIW, I have twice knocked an elephant down with close but not perfect brain shots using a 458wm shooting a 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2050fps. 500Grains has done it as well with his 500NE. In videos, I have seen elephants killed with near miss shots with big bores and elephants knocked down or out as well.

Zim Parks records show some facts central to this discussion. First is that it is ussually not the elephant being hunted that causes problems but either another elephant accompanying the hunted elephant or a suprise attack from an elephant. Second is the statistics for escaping harm from a bad encounter with an elephant show that all hunters using 375H&H's were either seriously injured or killed, and that the chances of escaping either serious harm or death only increased beyond 50/50 when the hunter was using a 458 or bigger bore rifle.

So far as stopping a buff without a CNS hit, I have seen it in a number of instances in Mark Sulivan's videos alone. This leads me to believe that it happens regularly, at least when the shooter is using rifles in the calibre range that Mark Sulivan used in his videos, which runs from about 450NE to 600NE. I have seen it once in a video when the hunter and PH were both using 470's as well. A shot from each stopped the buff, which remained on his feet, but just couldn't continue. He was killed by a brain shot by the PH using his second barrel, iirc.

I would hunt buff or elephants with a 375H&H, but I will always feel better with a .458" 480 grain bullet or better. When you are close, and the elephants are grumpy, any rifle will feel too small.

Recoil is something that, with practice and persistance, you can learn to live with. 20years ago I thought a 30-06 kicked alot.

JPK

JPK:
Would you please link to the Zim park staistics?
This would help with some arguments...

I'm not saying I agree with Weatherby on his velocity thing. I remember one pro hunter calling the 460 Wby a 'Portugese 22"
and he did not mean it as a compliment.

I would love to have one, if it was given to me. Big case, low pressure ammo avaliable, though expensive, I'd load it with big bullets, around 2250 fps, and be VERY happy. 600 grains, at 2250 is EASY, with the large case. It will go 2450 with a 26" barrel.

Given one, I'd be REAL tempted to rebarrel, and move up to the 510 Wells, since I also share your addiction for 510 caliber bullets, and weight. -)

GS

I've never said you CAN'T kill an Ele with a .375. I personally want something bigger and more comforting like a 10.5 lb .600OK. I did feel real undergunned though on my last ELE hunt with a .470NE double when the stupid game scout moved and the Bull turned on us at 20ft. There was absolutely no good killing shot available. My decision was to turn him and thats exactly what happened. Believe you me, the thing that went through my mind is YOU NEED a .600 OK RIGHT NOW! When things go just perfect a small caliber will do the trick, when things go wrong I want POWER NOW!. I'm not at all convinced a .375 would have turned him. Is a .600OK or fast .50 cal necessary probably not in 98 percent of the situations you get into, but will a bigger bore do a better job assuming you can shoot either well, I believe so.-Rob

JPK,
Is that Zim Parks statistic on the increased incidence of death or injury using .375's or smaller on track, with 450-500's and above giving you the added advantage??? I can believe it, as I feel the choice of rifle depends on the type of elephant hunting encountered.
Never been elephant bull (trophy) hunting, but would think a .375 H&H would be adequate for that task in most cases. Usually, the shot will be heart-lung or side brain brain shot (a shot which does not need correction for head tilt) and usually the visiblity is better, less chance of other elephant charging, and the PH would have more time to back one up.
Now to the elephant herd hunting: Here the cover is usually very thick Jesse, and the position and number of each ele is not known, and a changing wind can make things very interesting. Also, the shot of choice is usually the frontal brain shot and this shot position is dependent on the head angle. Besides the chance for a slight misalignment here, the ele is usually partially obscured by the bush. Once you get in tight to the elephant, you may get a charge. Not much time for sight alignment, forget that, you want a stopper, a 450 or preferably a 500 cal shooting 570-600 grainers. Not that I am some expert on this, but I have shot 5 eles under these conditions and feel in the cases that the ele is not outright dead on the frontal brain shot, it drops and gives the hunter a chance for a quick follow-up. The PH is not always in a position to back you up due primarly to the vision limitations in the thick bush.

Now for the best reason of all, SHOOTING BIG BORES ARE FUN!!!

Dak

Ganayna is the one always throwing out the statistics about what rifle gives you what chance at stopping an elephant.

If one was a perfect shot it really wouldn;'t matter. It is for the screwed-up shots that the big bores COULD make a difference.

Will,

I agree with you. But I don't think you take adequate account of the situation in which no clear brain shot is offered. A couple of examples might be when an elephant comes from the side and you are shooting up without a clear shot at the front - Taylor brings this one up, iirc - or when the elephant is after someone else in your group. Both apply to what your PH might see as well, and if he can't stop the elephant about to do you in then you need to, and an extra margin of safety ain't bad to have.

GS, Dakota45056,

The stats I write of were in an article on the African Hunter Website. As Will implies it was by Ganyana, iirc. Last I looked I couldn't find it. But Ganyana mentioned the statistics about a week or two ago in the African Hunting forum here at AR, if you want to search for his post.

The statistics were for Zim liscensed resident hunters, so could include hunters as experienced as PH's hunting for their own fun or biltong to hunters who have a lot less ecperience.

FWIW, I just finished reading Geof Broom's book and at the end he goes through his experience with rifles for cats, buff and elephant. For elephant he believes that a client is best served with a 450-500NE double rifle, with emphasis on the 500. He advocates for ejector on doubles for the speedier reload. He relates that he often carried a 375H&H double, but felt the 375H&H was light for elephants for either himself or clients - and light for buff too. He concluded that he could get away with a bolt rifle, a 450 Dakota shooting 600gr bullets at somewhere between 2000fps and 2150fps - he cites both numbers - since by the time he needed to shoot to save either a lost elephant or a life, it would be a one shot opportunity. He had Don Allen make his rifle at "just under 10lbs", which he considered a pretty light rifle for the power. He felt that elephant reaction to the 600gr .458" solid at 2000-2150fps was the equal of the a 570gr .510" 500 NE solid at 2150, but that penetration with the .458" 600gr solid was a lot better. "But enough is enough and anything from 450NE to 500NE is enough gun" or something close to that.

My thought too!

JPK

How big is enough?

As in most things in life, it is a compromise.

How much money can you afford to spend, how much recoil can you take, how much weight can you carry???

I have killed buff and elephant with my 9,3x74R. It worked perfect.
However, I know it is on the light side.

I feel perfectly safe with my 450 No2.
And it is not "too BIG for general use".
Heck I have killed squirrels and coyotes with it.

450 NE No2,

I think you were on the marginal end with cayotes, if not the squirrels. How did they react to the shot?

JPK

The first squirrel was a head shot. The second was just between the head and the front shoulder. Both were put in the freezer, then later the skillet.
I have taken two coyotes with the 450 No2. All dropped to the shot. I have taken a few deer and several wild pigs.
I hunted with my doubles for several years in the US before taking them to Zim.
By doing that I have learned that a double rifle is the BEST hunting rifle on the planet for all game taken within the range of the gun.

Many of you may laugh...

But yea, though I walk in the valley of dangerous game, I fear NO EVIL, for my double rifle is with me. Its twin barrels, fast reloading, and swift handling comfort me, ALL the days of my life.

Just carry the biggest and most powerful you can shoot.

Makes a nice epitaph, anyway.

The rest and remainder are not worth the wit nor the newsprint.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Will,

I agree with you. But I don't think you take adequate account of the situation in which no clear brain shot is offered. A couple of examples might be when an elephant comes from the side and you are shooting up without a clear shot at the front - Taylor brings this one up, iirc - or when the elephant is after someone else in your group. Both apply to what your PH might see as well, and if he can't stop the elephant about to do you in then you need to, and an extra margin of safety ain't bad to have.


JPK

If you are a perfect shot, there is no need for a big, big bore as at any angle you would be able to brain or spine an elephant or anything else, under any circumstances. But who is a perfect shot?

But there are as many opinions as there are hunters, but remember there are a lot of PH's using the 416's, even those that can't shoot all that well!

Will,

That scary thought is reason enough to carry more rifle!

JPK

You're just not going to let me have the last word, are you?

Will,

Forgive me, but I am bored stiff in the middle of some hurry up and wait business stuff and itchy and excited at the same time at the prospect of leaving for Zim in two weeks.

I have probably posted more in the last two weeks than in the last six months, and I am accelerating, as I get more restless.

JPK

OK:
So the stats from Zim are for guys hunting without backup, using a 375 or bigger rifle?
That would make sense.

GS

Anyone who wants-designs-builds-obsesses over, or actually hunts with a DGR "stopper" bigger than .500/.505/.510 is obviously suffering from "bore envy," akin to penis envy.

The term "bore envy" was coined by AR forumni long ago. It represents a psychic hole that needs a cork.

RIP,

Now don't go hacking on those of us that like true big bores. Some people just like shooting bigger bullets. Its that bamflop theory!