I have just reviewed a report of an Elephant shot at 125 yards! It did not turn out well, as might be expected. Following is what I know from the report:

The opening shot was intended as a heart/lung shot. The Ele did not drop to the shot - they rarely, if ever, do on any heart/lung shot, even at close range. The rifle was an appropriate for Ele large bore above .45 caliber and the bullets were one of the new solids developed and proven over the last few years, specifically for taking large DG. To the best of my knowledge, the rifle was not equipped with a scope but rather had a high quality red-dot (1x) mounted properly and zeroed for the rifle and load at 50 yards.

This wounded Ele began to exit the free-fire zone , limping and surrounded by other Ele, allowing only one followup shot, described simply as into his rear end. Hits from both shots were reportedly seen by the hunting party. The Ele was tracked the following day and blood spore from the wounded Ele left side was observed 5' high on the bush. After 7 miles the limp appeared to disappear - apparently from the track as no mention of ever spotting the Ele again was made. At that point it was decided that the Ele was lost as he could not be found.

It is possible, although I have been unable to confirm, that this Ele was a crop raider, shot in the dark with an artificial light on a PAC permit.

Ethical? Hunter? PH? Too far? What are the observations and opinions of the AR elephant hunters regarding this incident? I believe it's a nightmare, but that's JMO.

Good questions, all! But too many ifs for a definitive answer. Still, I will say this.

Even if he was a once in a lifetime hundred pounder, I would definitely have issues.

Maybe, with an HV, scoped rifle, like my .500 A-Square, throwing 570 grain bullets at 2,500 fps muzzle velocity, maybe then, just maybe.

But even then, probably not.

I have a hard time imagining how and why I would take such a shot at any unwounded elephant. Too risky. One must respect one's quarry.

Not to mention the ill-spent trophy fees.

Ethical or not, someone shooting an unwounded Elephant at 100 yards is missing out on the hunt. Getting to within 20 yards, or even closer, of one of these animals in the wild is what Elephant hunting is all about.

Someone who posted here about 10 years ago(he had been a competitive shooter) killed an elephant at 199 yards. Seated, in a tight sling. IIRC he was using a 375. I can't recall if it was a heart/lung shot or??? +- 60 pound elephant.

I never said a word, but I thought he cheated himself out of a hunt.

Two issues here really IMO.

The first is the quality of the hunt experience he cheated himself out of. Very much the point of that "Sniping" thread I started. Lots of guys commented that they would take the shot at DG simply based on whatever is presented, but the poll was just about split 50/50 for getting up close and personal.

The second is the ethical question of long range shooting of elephants. Personally, I think it's wrong and the results stated here seem to bare that out. Without all the details, I'm afraid I'd be Monday morning quarterbacking to comment further. But there are reasons why ele are typically shot at close range, and with solids only. Often those two go hand in hand as in penetration being king. Not to mention the importance of precise follow up shots in case things don't work out initially.

Mike, is this report public?

IPSO FACTO - it wasn't ethical because he pushed the envelope to far and lost a wounded animal.

If I see a one hundred pound elephant at 100 yards . . . better get your fingers in your ears quick.

Then you need to maybe use This at near top speed.--Ed

Hi Todd-

The report is not public, and may never be, but I can assure you it is what has been reported. I am not at liberty to disclose the names of the hunter, the PH nor the outfitter, but it happened very recently in a country where you, Mike Jines and I have all killed Elephant the correct way. I know of only one other person who has seen the report and he also believes it is accurate.

You know my feelings on this type of Ele hunting, but I wanted to get others opinions without any pre-concieved bias from me. I will let this hang and ripen a bit longer.

Mike Jines-

Nobody has alleged this was a 100 pounder, just for clarification, and I have no reason to believe it was anything other than a "normal" sized tusker.

At that distance I feel a soft through the heart/lung would have been preferable. At 375 velocities.

Is it ethical to shoot an elephant with a coffee Thermos regardless of the range?

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Then you need to maybe use This at near top speed.--Ed

quote:

Ethical? Hunter? PH? Too far? What are the observations and opinions of the AR elephant hunters regarding this incident? I believe it's a nightmare, but that's JMO.

quote:

I have a hard time imagining how and why I would take such a shot at any unwounded elephant. Too risky. One must respect one's quarry.

quote:

Ethical or not, someone shooting an unwounded Elephant at 100 yards is missing out on the hunt. Getting to within 20 yards, or even closer, of one of these animals in the wild is what Elephant hunting is all about.

quote:

Someone who posted here about 10 years ago(he had been a competitive shooter) killed an elephant at 199 yards. Seated, in a tight sling. IIRC he was using a 375. I can't recall if it was a heart/lung shot or??? +- 60 pound elephant.
I never said a word, but I thought he cheated himself out of a hunt.

quote:

The second is the ethical question of long range shooting of elephants. Personally, I think it's wrong and the results stated here seem to bare that out. Without all the details, I'm afraid I'd be Monday morning quarterbacking to comment further. But there are reasons why ele are typically shot at close range, and with solids only. Often those two go hand in hand as in penetration being king. Not to mention the importance of precise follow up shots in case things don't work out initially.

quote:

IPSO FACTO - it wasn't ethical because he pushed the envelope to far and lost a wounded animal.

quote:

Is it ethical to shoot an elephant with a coffee Thermos regardless of the range?

From all the above, there is little to add to this. I have done a lot of things that might be considered unethical by many, but long range sniping of any dangerous game is not, and will never ever be one of them.

125 yds on elephant??????? I can't even imagine even considering such a thing, for any reason? Too many things can happen between you and 125 yards that is begging for a terrible situation, which in fact did happen, the loss of a great animal. Consider the fact that how much loss in performance one would get at 125 yds with our typical elephant cartridge/Bullet, not the most driving factor, but one of the factors regardless.

There are MANY MANY reasons NOT TO DO THIS....... And I personally cannot think of even One reason in which to do so?

Michael

I get a kick out of these threads and debating hunting situations in the abstract over a glass of wine or a cup of coffee. My guess is that, if in reality, most hunters came upon a situation where they were presented with an opportunity to take a shot at a legitimate 100 pound elephant and it was not conceivable for whatever reason to make a closer approach, they would pull the trigger and hope for the best. I would speculate that the number, in the field not sitting at the computer in your study waxing eloquently on ethics, the proper hunting of elephant, penetration, etc., would be well north of 50% of hunters presented with such a situation. Obviously just a guess. Count me in that 50%+.

[. . . and yes, I understand that the elephant in the original post was not a hundred pounder but something significantly less and I think the answer in that situation might well be, and should be, different.]

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I get a kick out of these threads and debating hunting situations in the abstract over a glass of wine or a cup of coffee. My guess is that, if in reality, most hunters came upon a situation where they were presented with an opportunity to take a shot at a legitimate 100 pound elephant and it was not conceivable for whatever reason to make a closer approach, they would pull the trigger and hope for the best. I would speculate that the number, in the field not sitting at the computer in your study waxing eloquently on ethics, the proper hunting of elephant, penetration, etc., would be well north of 50% of hunters presented with such a situation. Obviously just a guess. Count me in that 50%+.

[. . . and yes, I understand that the elephant in the original post was not a hundred pounder but something significantly less and I think the answer in that situation might well be, and should be, different.]

I'm going to disagree with you here Mike. Certainly the draw of a true hundred pounder, by any means, is paramount for some, but not all. Just a little story to back up my point. Not a hundred pounder, but at the time, it might as well have been.

Back in 08, on my first trip to Zim, I was doing a 14 day ele bull / leopard hunt. Had the Merkel 500NE that I had spent most of the year loading for and practicing with. Also had a scoped 375 along for the cat. Day 2, we rolled up over the top of a pretty good sized hill and there about 150 yards away, standing across the road from the boundary line, was a small herd of 7 elephants. The first I had ever laid eyes on in the wild. One of those was a mid 50 lbs bull. The PH told me to get the 375, and we were going to go "whack" him.

Well, we hadn't taken the track of a single elephant to that point as we had been 100% focused on shooting leopard bait. I told the PH that was not the type of hunt I came to do. I wanted to track elephant, close the distance, and take my bull cleanly with my big bore double rifle. He angrily said "You can't just turn your back when the hunting gods give you a present". My response? "Just did"!

Later in that hunt, after taking the leopard, we tracked elephant several days. Finally found a huge track that later merged into an absolutely gigantic herd of 150 or more animals. We followed them until they stopped short of a road and decided to take their midday nap. We spotted my bull on the far side of the herd. How we ever managed to cross in front of them and wind our way up to the old boy, I'll never know. But we did. Got to 12 yards of him, sound asleep under a tree. Man, he looked like a 10 story building as he rocked back and forth in slumber.

Long story short, today I have a set of mid to low 30 lbs tusks in my trophy room. And the experience of the hunt is just as vivid in my mind today as if it happened yesterday. At the time, I thought it would be my only trip to Zim, and for sure my only elephant. So, even being a "one-off", or what I thought at the time would be a "one-off" hunt, I did it exactly the way I've advocated here numerous times at my keyboard, waxing eloquently (sort of) over my morning coffee. And when I look at those mid to low 30 lbs tusks, never once have I thought about that mid 50's bull.

Now should we ever find ourselves on a hunt together, and that proverbial 100 pounder is standing out there at 100 yards, I'll simply say "You're up old boy"! We'll drink a toast to your success and I'll tell folks "Hell, I was there"!

. . . big difference between 50 pounds and 100 pounds. But I will print your post and put it in my billfold just in case I need to remind you that the 100 pounder is mine to whack.

. . . you shot a sleeping elephant? That ought to be good for a long thread on what is right, wrong, etc., etc. I remember that a friend shot a lion sleeping in a river bed on TAA. That brought all the armchair quarterbacks out in force.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . big difference between 50 pounds and 100 pounds. But I will print your post and put it in my billfold just in case I need to remind you that the 100 pounder is mine to whack.

. . . you shot a sleeping elephant. That ought to be good for a long thread on what is right, wrong, etc., etc.

Ain't that the truth? Probably good for 3 or 4 pages at least!

25 yards is a long shot on elephant and I'd rather have them at 10 yards. Now if a 100 pounder is 100 yards away and there is no chance of getting closer that would be a hard call. If he is 50 yards from the border I'd say no. If miles from it then I might have different thoughts. First is it worth losing a 100 pounder? Second why can't you get closer? The PH should never let you take a shot like that in the first place. If he thinks you should and you feel like you can make a perfect shot then you shoot and have everyone else with a gun shoot too! I don't want to take a heart-lung shot unless I have to. At over 50 yds it is probably the only option. I'm speaking of iron sighted doubles because that's what I hunt with. If you have a big bolt gun with a scope then you might try a brain shot and have PH shoot for the lungs as a backup.
If it was me I think I would try to get closer or wait for another day. If I get a 100 pounder at 100 yards I'll just have to make my mind up then.

Sam

The only reason the old hunters had to get close because they had open sights not as accurate rifles and not as good of bullets.

Who only knows how bad their eye sight was back then glasses where fairly rare in the 1800s.

I don't think loseing the animal had anything to do with the range unless he was a bad shot all togather.

Any decent shooter with a accurate rifle should be more then able to place a killing shot at 125 yards.

At a 100 yards plus game cannot be considered dangerous. What was the shooter and PH afraid of?

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
The only reason the old hunters had to get close because they had open sights not as accurate rifles and not as good of bullets.

Who only knows how bad their eye sight was back then glasses where fairly rare in the 1800s.

I don't think loseing the animal had anything to do with the range unless he was a bad shot all togather. Any decent shooter with a accurate rifle should be more then able to place a killing shot at 125 yards.

Not trying to be rude as I just haven't followed your posts previously. So I'm asking an honest question. Can you give us a brief history of your elephant hunting experience including the ranges and calibers used?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
The only reason the old hunters had to get close because they had open sights not as accurate rifles and not as good of bullets.

Who only knows how bad their eye sight was back then glasses where fairly rare in the 1800s.

I don't think loseing the animal had anything to do with the range unless he was a bad shot all togather. Any decent shooter with a accurate rifle should be more then able to place a killing shot at 125 yards.

Not trying to be rude as I just haven't followed your posts previously. So I'm asking an honest question. Can you give us a brief history of your elephant hunting experience including the ranges and calibers used?

I fail to see how his hunting experience of elephant has any thing to do with his observation. 125 yards is a slam dunk for placing a bullet in the vitals of a deer. Anyone that can't hit the heart lung area of a elephant at that distance given a clear shot has accuracy issues, pure and simple. IMHO

Sooooooooo a yard a pound is the new rule of thumb?

I don't think the question is whether or not you can make the shot its whether you should. An elephant is something to be honored not just shot!

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
The only reason the old hunters had to get close because they had open sights not as accurate rifles and not as good of bullets.

Who only knows how bad their eye sight was back then glasses where fairly rare in the 1800s.

I don't think loseing the animal had anything to do with the range unless he was a bad shot all togather. Any decent shooter with a accurate rifle should be more then able to place a killing shot at 125 yards.

Not trying to be rude as I just haven't followed your posts previously. So I'm asking an honest question. Can you give us a brief history of your elephant hunting experience including the ranges and calibers used?

I fail to see how his hunting experience of elephant has any thing to do with his observation. 125 yards is a slam dunk for placing a bullet in the vitals of a deer. Anyone that can't hit the heart lung area of a elephant at that distance given a clear shot has accuracy issues, pure and simple. IMHO

And THAT is the exact reason I asked the question. A deer and an elephant cannot be compared when it comes to taking a shot at extended range.

There are so many different things to consider between the two animals. Bullet type (solid vs expanding), penetration required (how does that big, blunt bullet bleed energy at range and will it still have enough to get the job done when reaching it's target, remembering it is not an expanding bullet), possible need for follow up shots (not often needed on deer sized targets) and the list goes on ...

I always thought the object of hunting anything was to have a good time doing it.

Then if you can make a killing shot and bring the meat/trophy back.

Doesn't matter a bit to the critter what ever it is how far away they are killed from they are still dead.

Would this hunter made a killing shot at 10 yards don't know more then one game animal has been wounded by a shot fired at close range.

Seems to me that every body thats up set thinks their standard is the one to follow.

Who wrote the book that a elephant or any other critter has to be made at a certain range.

MY guess is that most sheep are shot at longer ranges. So when you have that world record at 50 yards. One should back off to 300 or so because its just not sporting to wack him at 50.

Again it dosen't matter to the critter killed what range it is killed at.

It only matters to the hunter. When it comes time to shoot the hunting is done its all shooting from then.

You want real sporting go after them with spear then one has to get really really close using a gun is just to unsporting.

quote:

And THAT is the exact reason I asked the question. A deer and an elephant cannot be compared when it comes to taking a shot at extended range.

125 yards extend range thats good.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I always thought the object of hunting anything was to have a good time doing it.

Then if you can make a killing shot and bring the meat/trophy back.

Doesn't matter a bit to the critter what ever it is how far away they are killed from they are still dead.

Would this hunter made a killing shot at 10 yards don't know more then one game animal has been wounded by a shot fired at close range.

Seems to me that every body thats up set thinks their standard is the one to follow.

Who wrote the book that a elephant or any other critter has to be made at a certain range.

MY guess is that most sheep are shot at longer ranges. So when you have that world record at 50 yards. One should back off to 300 or so because its just not sporting to wack him at 50.

If you are suggesting that most elephant are shot at over 50 yards, I'd say you're 100% incorrect!

Again it dosen't matter to the critter killed what range it is killed at.

It only matters to the hunter. When it comes time to shoot the hunting is done its all shooting from then.

You want real sporting go after them with spear then one has to get really really close using a gun is just to unsporting.

Edited:

My mistake. I see you were referring to sheep.

But as far as the book being written on range with regards to elephant, I'd say the book was written through experiences such as Lion Hunter has posted here that started the thread. Shooting ele at extended range is just asking for trouble from a multitude of issues. From bullet design and it's ability to maintain enough energy to properly penetrate and do the damage necessary (remember we are usually talking about a large caliber, rather blunt projectile that rapidly bleeds energy). Most deer sized animals can be taken cleanly at range and seldom require back up shots to prevent escaping over the boundary. Just too much to risk IMO and I think the experiences of other elephant hunters will largely bare this out.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

And THAT is the exact reason I asked the question. A deer and an elephant cannot be compared when it comes to taking a shot at extended range.

125 yards extend range thats good.

Yes, I'd consider 125 yards on elephant to be extended range.


But please, tell us of your elephant hunting experience on which you draw these conclusions?

This old disscusion reminds me of a story when we were out phesant hunting.

We had a older Gentlemen along with us he had just ground swated a rooster. Some of the guys where giving him a hard time about it.

Now this fellow a WWII vet landed on D-Day fought is way to Germany.

His statement to those giving him a hard time was "I learned something in the war boys if your going to kill something kill it. I dosen't matter to them how you do it, they are still dead."

No elephant hunting none what so ever.

You tell me something does it matter to the elephant how he dies or just to you.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
No elephant hunting none what so ever.

You tell me something does it matter to the elephant how he dies or just to you.

Are you quoting Mark Sullivan? Sorry, trying to put a little levity back into the discussion before it goes totally south.

But to your question, refer back to the OP. This is exactly the sort of thing that can happen with elephant. It's the reason I asked what you based your opinion on. With the possible exception of the 375 and to some extent the 416, we are talking about using weapons that rapidly bleed energy. Energy that is needed for penetration. That extreme need for penetration is exactly why we use solids only on elephant rather than expanding bullets.

Can you place the bullet into a side brain shot at range with a 375? Maybe. But if you miss it, it isn't like hitting a deer slightly off in the heart lungs with an expanding bullet where you'll track him and expect him to expire a little further along the trail. The animal will be lost if the brain isn't hit and no back up shots are fired. Same with the heart/lung shot on an ele. Again, you aren't using an expanding bullet, but rather a solid. It isn't as simple as just hitting the broad side of the barn when it comes to ele's. Reread the OP once more. That ele appears to have been hit in the right spot according to how they found the blood spoor. But the animal was lost anyway.

Edited to add:

Yeah, I suppose it does matter to the ele how it dies as well. A quick one shot kill to the brain where it never even hears the shot, or a poorly executed long range shot into the body that somehow just doesn't quite the the job done so it goes off to die a lingering death, or actually heals up, carrying lead the rest of it's life. Guess how many of these old bulls that have been taken lately are carrying bullets from poorly executed shots from poachers that didn't get the job done right? Seems that just about all of them do!!

And you muff the shot at 10 yards and he runs off. Muff it at 25 yards. A bad hit is a bad hit no matter what the range.

Lets say he ran off from being hit it the "right spot"at 10 yards would it made a differants.

Having tracked hundreds of head of wounded game. Those that go for a longer distance after being hit in the "right spot" If you ever find them have never been hit in the "right spot"

Most of the time shooters can never admit they muff such a easy shot. I can tell you many a story. People will call me to help track some thing they have wounded.

When I asked them where they hit it. I very seldom hear Oh I shot to far back or forward. What I hear is double lunged it or right through the heart.

You know 99 percent of the time it is BS.
They are just trying to mke themsefles feel better.

If they had hit it in the "right spot they wouldn't be calling to get help tracking it. It be very dead in a resonable distance.

I say the shooter muff the shot didn't hit it properly for what ever reason. Range, bad angle, poor eye sight bad shooting what ever.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:


It is possible, although I have been unable to confirm, that this Ele was a crop raider, shot in the dark with an artificial light on a PAC permit.

Ethical? Hunter? PH? Too far? What are the observations and opinions of the AR elephant hunters regarding this incident? I believe it's a nightmare, but that's JMO.

Mike,

In another post you elude to the fact the elephant was shot in Zim.

Will not debate the ethics of it but PAC is ILLEGAL for tourist hunters in Zim.

quote:

It is possible, although I have been unable to confirm, that this Ele was a crop raider, shot in the dark with an artificial light on a PAC permit.

Where does this fit in to get closer.

Todd, you shot a SLEEPING elephant???? OMG.
Well now I know why you're willing to trade jabs with someone who shoots the back trigger first and also owns a Blaser S2

quote:

And you muff the shot at 10 yards and he runs off. Muff it at 25 yards. A bad hit is a bad hit no matter what the range.

Wrong............

Shots can and are missed at close range, the DIFFERENCE is, at close range you have a far better opportunity of getting that second shot, third shot, and whatever is required to solve the problem.

Elephant, buffalo, hippo, lion, leopard, bears, these are not F**K**G Deer, and one does not start the dance off expecting 1 shot to do the job, even if it does, you shoot again, and then again. You don't sit and admire your shot, and wait to see what happens........... You shoot until you cannot shoot again, or your problem is solved, then pay the insurance with another shot!

The problem is not so much ethics, at 100 + yards, your chances of getting a second good shot is at a very low percentage compared to close range, and much slower. Dangerous game, 50 yards is LONG DISTANCE.............

Michael

Guys,

A few years ago there was a thread about an elephant that one of Johan Calitz's clients had taken. The story, as I remember it was that they were driving down the border between the hunting area/ non hunting area and saw a huge bull just inside the non hunting area. They stopped the Cruiser to watch the bull and to their complete amazement the bull started to walk into the hunting area. When he crossed the border they shot him. The tusks if I remember correctly were 97x64 and of a unique shape.

At the time this story showed up on AR several people commented that it was not a real elephant hunt etc, etc. because they did not track it or shoot it at 10 yards. To this I say Bullshit1 An awful lot of Bots bulls are killed spot and stalk and these guys in the story just got really lucky. To me luck is a big part of the mystery of hunting and spitting in the face of luck to do it "My Way" seems silly to me.

Yeah! I'll be the first to say however you want to hunt is your business but there is what I see as a harmful element to the constant beating of the drum about double rifles and being able to smell an animal's breath before you shoot it. The newbie to safari hunting reads all these threads by prolific posters and thinks "Gee whiz! If I don't hunt my buff this way and with a double rifle I have not hunted. Well! Bullshit again. For the average safari hunter that cannot just go on multiple DG hunts he needs to maximize his chances of success and that means using a scoped rifle and taking the makeable shot that is presented.

To the original topic there is no doubt in my mind that the elephant would have a 458 cal 450 gr solid in that V at the back of the front leg as quickly as I could place it there if the shot was makeable. The element of it being at night makes me think it should have been passed but I was not there so my opinion is just speculation at most.

Mark

(Preface: Never been to Africa)

Gosh, you guys have had some great threads in the last few days and this is another.

Todd and p dog shooter make some great points but are talking past one another. Todd wants the "experience" of an elephant hunt and p dog shooter is talking about the shot itself. Both are right.

With good light and a steady rest, 125 yards is a chip shot with a scope sighted bolt rifle at a stationary elephant. Would I take such a shot if conditions were right? Sure, but they would have to be just right.

However, Todd makes a good point too. Getting up close and personal with a tusker with a double is probably the greatest hunting experience one can have. Then, it's all about the experience of the hunt and I completely understand what Todd is saying.

You guys got me thinking the other day. Dangerous thing. I pulled out my copy of African Rifles and Cartridges and found the part where Pondoro talked about shot placement on dangerous game. He was not a brain shooter. He was a strong advocate of the "shoulder" shot, even on elephant. He said that the heart/lung shot was for deer hunters who didn't want to ruin to much venison. However, he said the shoulder shot was the most certain because would invariably bring the beast down so, if necessary, the killing shot could be delivered.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

Mike,

In another post you elude to the fact the elephant was shot in Zim.

Will not debate the ethics of it but PAC is ILLEGAL for tourist hunters in Zim.

As I said, I have not been able to confirm this was a PAC animal, however, I should have noted that the shooter did hold valid quota(s) for Elephant at the time he shot this particular Ele, which would have made it legal. I will post here
any new or additional information I receive regarding this incident, but be advised, that may not happen.

Dave Bush -

Keep in mind, please, that John Taylor was NOT hunting Ele for sport. He was an ivory poacher shooting Ele illegally. For him, getting the Ele down was the thing, as he wanted to kill every Ele in the herd, and if an Ele was down and unable to rise, which is the direct result of the shoulder shot (I have done) that guaranteed him the ivory and he could then turn to another Ele and another, etc. and anchor them as well.

quote:

whatever is required to solve the problem.

You need to remember that if there is a problem, you caused it....Which makes all of this logic sound like an excuse.