quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Todd and Doc:

Is there a divide here between the scoped bolt rifle guys and the double rifle guys? Heck, with a scoped bolt rifle and a steady rest, 125 yards is a chip shot and a heart/lung shot is a pretty big target.

One hundred yards with my VC and Michael's "wunderbullets"..:

I have to call BS-those are not even 458 cal bullet holes.

shitaway, I recommend your little single cell zygot of a brain go and swim in deeper water, there's more oxygen out there although it's arguably too late...

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

One hundred yards with my VC and Michael's "wunderbullets"..:

Awesome shooting there Jorge!

Big bore open-sight double at 100 yards - that's the way to do it!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Ethical? Hunter? PH? Too far? What are the observations and opinions of the AR elephant hunters regarding this incident? I believe it's a nightmare, but that's JMO.

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I have a hard time imagining how and why I would take such a shot at any unwounded elephant. Too risky. One must respect one's quarry.

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Ethical or not, someone shooting an unwounded Elephant at 100 yards is missing out on the hunt. Getting to within 20 yards, or even closer, of one of these animals in the wild is what Elephant hunting is all about.

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Someone who posted here about 10 years ago(he had been a competitive shooter) killed an elephant at 199 yards. Seated, in a tight sling. IIRC he was using a 375. I can't recall if it was a heart/lung shot or??? +- 60 pound elephant.
I never said a word, but I thought he cheated himself out of a hunt.

quote:

The second is the ethical question of long range shooting of elephants. Personally, I think it's wrong and the results stated here seem to bare that out. Without all the details, I'm afraid I'd be Monday morning quarterbacking to comment further. But there are reasons why ele are typically shot at close range, and with solids only. Often those two go hand in hand as in penetration being king. Not to mention the importance of precise follow up shots in case things don't work out initially.

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IPSO FACTO - it wasn't ethical because he pushed the envelope to far and lost a wounded animal.

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Is it ethical to shoot an elephant with a coffee Thermos regardless of the range?

From all the above, there is little to add to this. I have done a lot of things that might be considered unethical by many, but long range sniping of any dangerous game is not, and will never ever be one of them.

125 yds on elephant??????? I can't even imagine even considering such a thing, for any reason? Too many things can happen between you and 125 yards that is begging for a terrible situation, which in fact did happen, the loss of a great animal. Consider the fact that how much loss in performance one would get at 125 yds with our typical elephant cartridge/Bullet, not the most driving factor, but one of the factors regardless.

There are MANY MANY reasons NOT TO DO THIS....... And I personally cannot think of even One reason in which to do so?

Michael

Michael my boy - I can think of one VERY good reason to do so. Cause its a 100lb elephant, he's fixin to leave, and as you KNOW already - I do this for a different reason than you. I love the hunt/trophy, and something like this - I'm shooting him. You know the gun I want in my hands, and without any doubt - I am 100% confident I could drop him right in his tracks, no question about it. Brain shot obviously.

The distance is of little consequence, if the hunter did in fact make a "good" shot on the bull, and was using quailty caliber/bullet combo. Fact is, the shot was probably poor? Even though it seems FAR for an elephant, if he was really shooting heart/lung, I mean good heavens, that's a HUGE target, even from 125 yards!! A beach-ball sized target at 125, man, even I can hit that.

Like MJines, plug ur ears - cause I'm shooting. Jines and I are going home with a huge elephant, that's all I know. Especially if you can shoot like Jines.

LionHunter - Frankly, if it were you shooting, I'm betting its a dead elephant.

Unethical? Or just a personal choice to shoot?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Gents,

You see this elephant at 100 yards, it is your only shot, shoot now or he walks into the bush never to be seen again, I am not buying that any of you would not pull the trigger. Not calling anyone a liar, just maybe a little confused or disoriented.



[Duke died several years ago, and he had broken off his left tusk, but in his prime, wow.]

Mike - I do believe guys like Todd, Michael and some others would truly "pass" the shot on this grand ole guy at 125 yards. Its more than just the "trophy" for some, and that's just fine. Fact is, I would love to smoke this bull at 10 yards, with my .600NE double. But just like you, if he's 125 yards and fixin to get away - duck, otherwise you could be in the line of fire.

Its really a HUGE target (vitals) even at 125 yards. If he was well-within the hunt area, then I would heart/lung him. If he was close to the park boundary, I would brain him - and not think twice about it. (My favorite scoped rifle would of course be necessary).

Aaron,

I'd find something to lull both you and the elephant into a stupor, sneak up on him and take him with my 600NE before either of you knew what happened.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Gents,

You see this elephant at 100 yards, it is your only shot, shoot now or he walks into the bush never to be seen again, I am not buying that any of you would not pull the trigger. Not calling anyone a liar, just maybe a little confused or disoriented.



[Duke died several years ago, and he had broken off his left tusk, but in his prime, wow.]

Mike - I do believe guys like Todd, Michael and some others would truly "pass" the shot on this grand ole guy at 125 yards. Its more than just the "trophy" for some, and that's just fine. Fact is, I would love to smoke this bull at 10 yards, with my .600NE double. But just like you, if he's 125 yards and fixin to get away - duck, otherwise you could be in the line of fire.

Its really a HUGE target (vitals) even at 125 yards. If he was well-within the hunt area, then I would heart/lung him. If he was close to the park boundary, I would brain him - and not think twice about it. (My favorite scoped rifle would of course be necessary).

You're about as likely to see one as the other in today's African hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I don't think the question is whether or not you can make the shot its whether you should. An elephant is something to be honored not just shot!

What he said!

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Originally posted by JCS271:

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Originally posted by srose:
An elephant is something to be honored not just shot!

What he said!

Check with any elephant and they will tell you, shot is shot, very little honor in it from their perspective.

In the end it all comes down to the individual hunter, some like long shots, some like close, some hunt crop raiders at night, some only want to track, some sit at waterholes at night, some only want to track, some like doubles, some like bolts, some like big bores, some like a .375 H&H, it all comes down to what turns the specific hunter's crank. But there sure ain't no right or wrong.

Michael458 makes an interesting observation of 2150fps MV possibly down to 1500-1600fps at 125yards. If we played around with this concept it would pose a good question for all you elephant hunters:
Most know that their elephant cartridge starting off at say 2200fps at the muzzle is going to have a lower but effect velocity on target within the range they are likely to shoot their elephant, which for many seems to be up to 50 yards or closer. Shall we then say this effective velocity on the elephant is going to be somewhere between 2000fps to 1800fps which most of you hunters with practical experience seem to observe is a good hard hitting level.
Now if you were told the velocity on target at your 50 yard range was only going to be 1500fps to 1600fps with your MV of 2200fps, or in another way your MV was only going to be 1800fps dropping to 1600fps at your usual 50 yard maximum range what would you think?
What I’m trying to say is that I imagine most would be happy setting off to Africa to hunt elephant at the normal close range shooting they are expecting with a big bore cartridge at a MV of 2200fps or thereabouts but how many would set off with a cartridge ‘effectively’ only having a MV of 1800fps for the same target range?

Aaron

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Aaron,

I'd find something to lull both you and the elephant into a stupor, sneak up on him and take him with my 600NE before either of you knew what happened.

Me and Doc used to be Indians! I would get Aaron cornered, and give him a lecture on the 8 Factors of Solid penetration, Aaron would go to sleep after the first 3 minutes, then Doc would put the "Indian Stalk" on the 100 pounder, and get real close... I would stay close to Aaron, just in case he wakes up, if so, I can continue the lecture on the 8 factors of penetration, next thing you know, BOOOOM.... and the big elephant drops in his tracks, as a Mighty 900 gr BBW#13 Solid, with 67% Meplat, at 2000 fps and 38657 PSI has slammed the elephant from a side brain shot, and of course having superior penetration exited the far side.... Elephant drops, rear end first, followed by the front, trunk goes up in the air, and he comes crashing down, dust billowing from the earth shattering fall of the mighty titan. Aaron was so startled by the shot upon wakening, he fell out of the hunting vehicle causing almost as much commotion as the downed elephant, then, a second BoooooooM, Doc has paid the insurance, and it is over!

Now that is TeamWork......

That's the way to do it!!!

And as much as Aaron enjoys a good lecture on theoretical and applied physics, the heat of Africa combined with his fantasies of big chested meplats would certainly distract him.

What a FAKE target.

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by srose:
I don't think the question is whether or not you can make the shot its whether you should. An elephant is something to be honored not just shot!

What he said![/QUOTE

How do you "honor" and elephant by blowing his brains out?

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his fantasies of big chested meplats

In this situation...I prefer softs.

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Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

his fantasies of big chested meplats

In this situation...I prefer softs.

Michael, it wouldn't work. Bu the time you got to penetration point #3, what sport would that be....even the Elephant would be passed out sound asleep!!! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Michael, it wouldn't work. Bu the time you got to penetration point #3, what sport would that be....even the Elephant would be passed out sound asleep!!! :-)

Thats how I lure My Prey......................

And anyway, I am going to try this sleeping elephant thing, Todd did it, so can I.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Aaron

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:


Aaron,

I'd find something to lull both you and the elephant into a stupor, sneak up on him and take him with my 600NE before either of you knew what happened.

Me and Doc used to be Indians! I would get Aaron cornered, and give him a lecture on the 8 Factors of Solid penetration, Aaron would go to sleep after the first 3 minutes, then Doc would put the "Indian Stalk" on the 100 pounder, and get real close... I would stay close to Aaron, just in case he wakes up, if so, I can continue the lecture on the 8 factors of penetration, next thing you know, BOOOOM.... and the big elephant drops in his tracks, as a Mighty 900 gr BBW#13 Solid, with 67% Meplat, at 2000 fps and 38657 PSI has slammed the elephant from a side brain shot, and of course having superior penetration exited the far side.... Elephant drops, rear end first, followed by the front, trunk goes up in the air, and he comes crashing down, dust billowing from the earth shattering fall of the mighty titan. Aaron was so startled by the shot upon wakening, he fell out of the hunting vehicle causing almost as much commotion as the downed elephant, then, a second BoooooooM, Doc has paid the insurance, and it is over!

Now that is TeamWork......

Now we are getting down the real meaning of unethical hunting!




465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Aaron

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:


Aaron,

I'd find something to lull both you and the elephant into a stupor, sneak up on him and take him with my 600NE before either of you knew what happened.

Me and Doc used to be Indians! I would get Aaron cornered, and give him a lecture on the 8 Factors of Solid penetration, Aaron would go to sleep after the first 3 minutes, then Doc would put the "Indian Stalk" on the 100 pounder, and get real close... I would stay close to Aaron, just in case he wakes up, if so, I can continue the lecture on the 8 factors of penetration, next thing you know, BOOOOM.... and the big elephant drops in his tracks, as a Mighty 900 gr BBW#13 Solid, with 67% Meplat, at 2000 fps and 38657 PSI has slammed the elephant from a side brain shot, and of course having superior penetration exited the far side.... Elephant drops, rear end first, followed by the front, trunk goes up in the air, and he comes crashing down, dust billowing from the earth shattering fall of the mighty titan. Aaron was so startled by the shot upon wakening, he fell out of the hunting vehicle causing almost as much commotion as the downed elephant, then, a second BoooooooM, Doc has paid the insurance, and it is over!

Now that is TeamWork......

Now we are getting down the real meaning of unethical hunting!




465H&H

quote:

Ethical? I could give a shit about so called ethics personally. These are individual rights and totally up to the individual on the scene, at the moment, and no one else's GD business.

I am pretty sure I said the above...... Maybe I should just forget the rifle, I could just walk up and talk them to death........... Yeah, 465HH... I think I see your point!!!!!

All you guys are just killin me, just killin me!

Dave you honor him by giving him a sporting chance. Give him the option of stomping you in the ground.

Sam

I don't plan to be that sporting.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

LionHunter - Frankly, if it were you shooting, I'm betting its a dead elephant.

Hey Aaron,

Thanks for joining the discussion.

My friend, I have to say you are absolutely, positively, 100% correct. While I am not an advocate of the shot taken in the incident under discussion nor of shots over 50 yards on Ele, if the Elephant was a potential 100 pounder, and assuming there was no way to get closer without losing him, I'd be shooting to kill!

The discussion has really evolved into two separate and distinct incidents: 1) is the OP, as I posted - an unexceptional Ele, shoot at 125 yards and lost, while 2) is the different question of a 100 pounder at 100 yards.

Those of us who have hunted Elephant know what the opportunity of a 100 pounder really means. I've seen only one in the wild during my african career and he was in a national park in Kenya back in 1995. I literally watched him for an hour (and took video) as he limped - he was obviously injured - down a long hill to a salt lick. Truely an incredible Ele!

In the OP I asked for the "...observations and opinions of the AR elephant hunters...". Yet, once again on AR, we get input from some who have never hunted Ele nor even set foot in africa, and from the deer hunters who equate a moderate distance shot on deer with a .30-06 as comparable to a 125 yard shot on Ele with a true large bore rifle above .45 caliber. Here's a flash for you guys - There Is a Difference! And don't try to tell me about shot placement - I made 1,000 yard hits on a standard silhouette target just a few weeks ago, so I know shot placement.

I am glad to see that many of the AR Ele hunters have joined in and I appreciate all your input. And for the record, IMO the shooter in the OP should NOT have taken the shot, as I have reason to believe he neither knows Ele anatomy nor his rifle/cartridge capability, and the end result seems to bare me out. Could some of you have made the same shot and wound up with a dead Ele? Of that I have little doubt.

Only 5 weeks until I begin my next bull Ele hunt! And I hope my shot will be under 25 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Its really a HUGE target (vitals) even at 125 yards. If he was well-within the hunt area, then I would heart/lung him. If he was close to the park boundary, I would brain him - and not think twice about it. (My favorite scoped rifle would of course be necessary).

A .375 RUM...unless I miss my guess.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Dave you honor him by giving him a sporting chance. Give him the option of stomping you in the ground.

I knew these threads all would connect back to Mark Sullivan at some point. It is clear at this stage that Mark is the epicenter of all things relating to dangerous game hunting (must be that whole Six Degrees of Separation thing at work, we are all linked, consciously or unconsciously, to Mark).

Nice shooting by the way Jorge!!

I want to get that close I would be able to use both barrels on the elephant and hit both times. That would be far enough.