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Excuse me? Friend, I must inform you, when hunting dangerous game of any sort, the second you turn the first round loose, "You have a Problem", you have a responsibility to finish, and solve the problem. It very well may be solved on Shot #1..... But if your animal is down, and you are 100% sure its Dead As Hell, Guess what? You still shoot again. The problem begins with the first shot, you are responsible for solving it from that point on. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I don't see anything that is basically unethical about shooting an elephant at 100 or 125 yards. If you use a suitable rifle caliber and bullet, can make the shot under pressure and go for a heart/lung shot, what is unethical about that? Let's not confuse what our preferences are with what is unethical. Hell the vital area on an a broadside elephant is almost the same size as the body of a small or medium sized deer and we consider 125 yards a close shot on deer. As far as you have more time for backup shots on close approaches, that is questionable at best. Close approaches often mean thick cover where an elephant can be out of sight in a couple of steps. In the open you may actually have much more time for backup. Conditions will vary but neither means inherently less time. A lot of the decision on how far you take an elephant is dependent on what your objective for the hunt is. If it is to take an elephant with an open sighted double or bolt gun, then you will probably want to get close. If you are trying to take the biggest elephant tusks possible, then you may have to take a somewhat longer shot. Nothing unethical about either of those selections. Now taking a chancy shot at a marginal angle may indeed be unethical but that can happen at any range. I took one large bodied elephant bull of around 40 lbs. per side at somewhere between 95 and 100 yards, to my best memory as we didn't pace it off. It was a crop raiding bull that we had followed since early morning and we had finally caught up with it just at dusk. The bull knew we were there and was moving off. He stopped almost broadside to us and looked toward us. It was shoot now or give up the chase. The PH felt we really needed to kill this bull since it had been chasing farmers that tried to scare it from their fields. I fired with my open sighted 470 double well behind the crease behind the front shoulder to angle the bullet through the lungs, aiming for the off shoulder. The bullet hit right where I intended it to and the bull humped up for a second and started off. I gave it the left barrel into the same location and the bull turned 180 degrees and went down unable to put weight on its left front leg. It couldn't get back up even though it tried several times. A couple of finishing head shots from 20 yards killed it. I was using the much reviled Woodleigh RN solids at this time. Both bullet entrance holes were within 4" of each other. One of them hit the large leg bone (humerus) and although it didn't break the bone, it caused enough bone damage to prevent the bull from putting weight on that leg. Both bullets were found under the skin of the far shoulder within a few inches of each other when the skin was removed. Neither showed any sign of deformation. There obviously was enough penetration to make that shot even at nearly 100 yards from a 470 that started the bullets at 2,150 fps. One could make the case that in the instance that started this thread that had the bullet hit in the same place if the elephant was at 30 yards instead of 125 yards that it might still have been lost. 465H&H | |||
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If I was in situation where I had a 100 pounder at 100 yards of so and that was the only window of opertunity I had, and I was carrying a 460 Wby or 505 Gibbs, I would be hard pressed not to take the shot I suspect..but the situation would have to determine that..I see no difference in that than taking a 400 yard shot at a big bull elk with proper caliber such as a .338 or even a big 300.. I have never shot an elephant at 100 yards, and only one or two bull elk at near 400 yards because one can 90% of the time cut the range to much less.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Gents, You see this elephant at 100 yards, it is your only shot, shoot now or he walks into the bush never to be seen again, I am not buying that any of you would not pull the trigger. Not calling anyone a liar, just maybe a little confused or disoriented. [Duke died several years ago, and he had broken off his left tusk, but in his prime, wow.] Mike | |||
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As I stated in my first post on this thread, there are two issues here to consider. The first is what you want from a hunt. Personally, I want it up close and personal, and with a double rifle. Sorry Mark if you call bullshit but as long as I pay my own way, I'll ask it to be on my terms. Each man who pays for his own hunt can choose for themselves and I don't see where you can call bullshit on that!! To each his own. But the second part of this equation is whether or not one should take a "long range" shot at an elephant. Walt says it's fine. He has a lot of experience with these beasts. However, I think he playing a bit of devils advocate here and seriously doubt he is truly recommending long range hunting of elephant. The facts are that more than one shot is often needed with these animals. Hitting one in the heart/lung area at 100 yards with a big bore solid is NOT the same thing as slightly missing a deer at the same range with an expanding bullet. Let's hear what the PHs say about this. The ones I know and have hunted elephant with have all said they prefer the brain shot. Why, specifically, they say that you cannot tell immediately if the heart lung shot was proper, even at close range. Therefore, with the brain shot, if it isn't correct, you'll know it right away and the opportunity for a quick back up, from the client or PH, is usually available. Not always, but in the vast majority of instances. Now, why would the experienced ele hunters make a statement like that concerning not knowing immediately if the heart / lung shot did the trick immediately if it wasn't a concern? If it's the same as shooting a deer, why do we use solids only on elephant? We can bat this one back and forth all day for the next several weeks. But the OP really makes the point doesn't it? The ele was shot at what is considered "long range" for elephant hunting, the shot appears to have been correct to some extent based on finding the spoor on one side about 5 feet high, and yet the elephant was not killed outright. It escaped. Possibly to recover, possibly to die a lingering death and be wasted!! Now, ele are damned expensive to hunt. But beyond that, would you want it on your conscience to have such a great beast get away wounded because of trying a "long" shot, without the opportunity to get in back up shots? If you're satisfied with that risk, more power to you. But I'll state it again, if elephant are just like deer, why do nearly 100% of the bulls taken today carry poachers bullets that didn't get the job done? There are just too many things that can go wrong with these big boys. | |||
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"Shoot! Shoot! Are you nuts?" Mike | |||
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Mike, 15 or 16 now? Lots of ele experience for today's hunters. How many at more than 40 yards? | |||
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Uno, but not by much. Cero, over 100 pounds. Mike | |||
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I heard that-- "shoot , shoot " also- -explained to him later that at 6'4 he could see over brush that at 5'7 looked like jungle to me. | |||
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The problem as I see it is "how many practice with the big bores past 50 yards? The shot as I understand it was a "heart lung" the would have enough pop to do the job at 125 if properly placed. I have a friend that has that 3 with a hand gun back in the 70's. It is my understanding that if the lungs were hit the Elephant would have been found. Still seems like an accuracy problem to me. Not being there I can only speculate, but 125 yards on a clear shot on a target as large as an elephants lungs should not be difficult. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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This post is spot on IMHO _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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http://www.24hourcampfire.com/gates_elephant.html Big Ivory Ken Howell (from details provided by Elgin T Gates) THE OCHRE DUST of East Africa filled the Land Rover and covered its four occupants, black and white alike, with the same red hue. Only tiny rivulets of their sweat revealed the true colors of their skins. Gates's professional hunter, J B Blacklaws, tried to wipe the red dust away with a handkerchief, but he just smeared it into his perspiration, and it gave him a hideous countenance. Blacklaws cursed and rapped-out a terse command in Swahili: "Toa beer-i ene" - (Take out four beers). Wangi and Nzomo had been sitting in the back like sphinxes, ignoring the dust. At Blacklaws's command for beer, they grinned, showing white teeth. They passed two warm, foaming bottles of Tusker beer to Gates and Blacklaws, and two more bottle caps popped as they opened their own. "My bloody oath!" Blacklaws exclaimed as we stopped for at least the tenth time to let native herdsmen move their long-horned Ankole cattle out of the road. "If we don't get to Kampala by four o'clock to pick up the licenses and permits, we will lose another day." Gates and Blacklaws were beginning another of the private exploratory safaris that they both liked so well. No lorry piled high with equipment impeded their progress. They had no excessive crew of native helpers. They had just the Land Rover, with Blacklaws driving and Gates in the passenger seat, with Wangi and Nzomo in the second seat with the guns and other essential gear. In the back compartment, they had two drums of petrol, the small tents, and the outboard motor that they would need on this trip. They carried a minimum of tinned food - intending, as usual, to live on game and whatever else they could scrounge off the country or buy in small villages here and there. Their deal was that Gates paid all the expenses, and whenever they found a new game area or a hidden pocket where his hunters could collect good trophies, Blacklaws could later take other clients there. Before this trip, he had gotten information from an old chum whom he had known in the service during World War Two. His chum had recently been assistant to a district commissioner in northern Uganda. On a visit to Nairobi while on his way home to England, he had told Blacklaws about an area on the east bank of the Nile, in uninhabited country north of Lake Albert, where the elephants carried big ivory. Satisfied that his chum's information was worth one of our exploratory safaris, Blacklaws had cabled Gates. Gates had arrived at the Nairobi aerodrome twenty-two hours later. Soon, they were on the tarmac road heading west toward Uganda. About thirty miles out of Nairobi, they came to the edge of the escarpment. Blacklaws pulled over and stopped the Land Rover. While he supervised the tightening of the ropes holding the petrol drums, Gates climbed out to take a good look at one of his favorite views. "MMBA," Blacklaws called it - miles and miles of bloody Africa. Spread out below and stretching as far as the eye could see was the great Rift Valley, a sea of yellow grass gently undulating in the breeze, dotted here and there with the distinctive flat-topped acacia trees. Off to the right stood the old volcano Longonot, against blue-green mountains. Behind, thrusting out of the dark forests and vividly etched by the late sun, were the Ngong hills. Down in the valley, they turned right, to the east of Longonot and on by Lake Naivasha, and climbed back into the high country. They reached Blacklaws' farm at Elmenteita just at dusk. "It's about three hundred miles to Kampala," he said at dinner. "With an early start, we ought to get there at four." They got there in fair time, in spite of the dust and the inevitable delays while herdsmen moved their long-horned Ankole cattle, peculiar to Uganda, off the road. Finally, with all the official formalities completed, Blacklaws pulled the Land Rover up in front of the Imperial Hotel. They registered, then went into the bar and ordered a pitcher of cold beer. "This cuts the dust better than anything else," Blacklaws said, taking a long pull. "And this is our last chance for a shower and a good bed." "What do you think of our chances for good ivory?" Gates asked. "If half of what my chum told me holds true, we ought to locate something well over a hundred pounds. He reckons nobody has been hunting in that part of the country for a good twenty years." From the moment when Gates had received Blacklaws's cable, his pulse had quickened at the thought of going after big ivory, and the same feeling came to him back again as they discussed the coming hunt over the cold beer. Gates swore that if the time ever came when he didn't feel that quick surge of excitement over this kind of safari, he would hang up his rifles. Anticipating these exploratory safaris, he had left one of his rifles with Blacklaws. They had picked it up - a .300 Weatherby Magnum - during the stopover at his farm. For ammunition, Gates had left a selection that would suffice for any kind of game that they went after - a couple of boxes each of 180-grain Hornady soft-points, 180-grain Noslers, and 200-grain Noslers. Certain experts as well as other well known hunters consider the .300 too light for hunting elephant. But Gates had taken elephant with this cartridge before. He had no hesitation about using it if he were to get a clear open shot or if he would have to shoot farther than a hundred yards. Usually, elephant-hunting is close-up business - the closer the better. Under normal circumstances and with careful stalking, it is possible to get within twenty-five yards - sometimes much closer. Elephant-hunting can entail close-quarter shooting in heavy brush. For that, Gates preferred to use one of Blacklaws' matched set of .470 Westley Richards double rifles, using 500-grain Kynoch full-patch bullets. Gates was not enthusiastic about using solids for hunting big game, a reluctance that he'd not kept secret, but Blacklaws was. This was one of their few differences. He was born and bred with them and wouldn't carry soft-point cartridges for his .470s. Long before, they had argued to stalemate on the subject, with mutual respect and acceptance of each other's opinion. He knew that at a hundred yards plus, with a bit of time to get on-target, Gates could place an accurate shot with his scope-sighted Weatherby that would bag the game. But at close-range snap-shooting, he was a master at handling his superbly balanced .470 doubles. Gates did not hesitate to bow to his superiority. During many close confrontations over the years, it always comforted Gates to know that Blacklaws was at his side with his .470 double - solids and all. Especially in close-range elephant-shooting, the important thing is to place the bullet well, whether it is a solid or a controlled-expansion bullet like the Nosler. The next day, they drove the hundred and fifty miles northwest to Masindi, then due north another forty miles. They crossed the Nile at spectacular Murchison Falls, which Sir Samuel Baker discovered and named in 1863. They crossed the Nile again on the Pakwach ferry about ten miles north of its outlet from Lake Albert, also discovered and named by Baker, then turned right along the west bank. The narrow road soon came to an end at a small village. On a little rise that overlooked the murky waters of the Nile, they set up a meager base camp. After inquiry, Blacklaws soon found the decrepit old boat that his chum had told him about. It needed patching. Their two men, with the help of several villagers, attended to it while Gates and Blacklaws sat under a tree drinking warm beer and Blacklaws pried what information he could get out of the local chief. "About ten miles north of here, the Aswa River comes in from the east," Blacklaws said. "That's where we will set up our fly camp." At dawn, they pushed off downriver, taking with them two of the locals who had been on the other side of the river and whom Gates and Blacklaws would need to help maneuver the boat while they drifted. Floating clumps of papyrus, called sudd islands, drifted along with them like ancient galleons. The early sky changed from gray to pink. Hippos snorted and churned the water. Once, one came up beside the boat, then disappeared in a swirl. Heavy crocs slid off the bank as the hunters approached. And there were elephants, feeding along the bank and out into the sudd. Blacklaws scanned the banks and the country inland with his binoculars, while Gates glassed ahead. They stopped counting after two hours of drifting and forty elephants. No big ivory yet, but both men were excited. The best tusks were about seventy pounds to the side. With this many elephants to look over, they figured that it was a matter of time before they saw a big one. Blacklaws had that certain twinkle that the sight of elephants always put in his eyes. Each bend and twist in the river brought more into view. Elephant fever caught up even the normally stoic Wangi and Nzomo, who constantly pointed, jabbered in their native Dorobo dialect, and switched to Swahili now and then for Gates's benefit. "Tembo, mingi sana," Wangi said with a toothy smile when they had about fifteen in sight at one time. Blacklaws, probably as good a judge of ivory on the hoof as any other professional hunter in Africa, called-out his estimates as they drifted along. "Those two bulls - the one on the left, about sixty, sixty-five, the other a shade over fifty." Late in the afternoon, they reached the Aswa River and set up their fly camp. While Blacklaws, Wangi, and the two locals were putting the camp in order, Gates walked upriver with Nzomo and bagged a Uganda kob for the larder. This small reddish antelope with lyre-shaped horns stands about thirty inches high at the shoulder and weighs about a hundred fifty pounds. Later, as the smell of roasting fillets pervaded the air, the hunters sat on the small folding canvas camp chairs, drinking warm beer and watching the ever-changing scene of the Nile. The late sun put a red sheen on the water and highlighted the floating papyrus islands. Birds and waterfowl swept by, black silhouettes against the deepening sky. "Let's hunt down the river for a few days," Blacklaws said. "Most of the elephants we've seen are along the bank, and we can cover a lot of country just by drifting in the boat. Then we can use the motor to come back against the current." The hunters were seldom out of sight of elephants that fed along the banks or out in the sudd. The country inland appeared to be a bit dry, with the grass already yellow, although most of the trees still had their leaves. "So far, the information from my chum has been pretty accurate," Blacklaws said one day. "With the back country dry this time of the year, the elephants have migrated down from the hills and have concentrated along the Nile." "Only we haven't seen any of those hundred-pounders yet," Gates said in jest. They both knew that they wouldn't find that kind of ivory in bunches like bananas anywhere in Africa. They were few and far between, which is what makes a hundred-pounder one of the most desirable big-game trophies in the world. (Maybe this is a good time to explain the term hundred-pounder as it applies to elephants. Gates often remembered the pretty blonde who overheard a dinner-party conversation about elephant hunting one evening. "Oh," she said, fluttering her false eyelashes to get attention, "you men are so absolutely cruel, shooting a poor little old baby elephant that weighs only a hundred pounds. You simply ought to be ashamed!" Momentarily taken aback, then amused, the hunters quickly explained that in the jargon of big-game hunters, a hundred-pounder is an elephant carrying tusks that weigh a hundred pounds each.) Late one afternoon, as they were chugging upriver on their way back to camp, Wangi, who was perched on the framework over the center of the boat, motioned frantically. Gates quickly shut off the motor, and they put their binoculars on the elephant that he was pointing to - a lone bull standing motionless under a tree about five hundred yards from the river. One quick look confirmed that he was carrying better ivory than any that the hunters had seen so far. Gates guessed that his tusks would go a hundred or better. Blacklaws guessed eighty-five to ninety. Without hesitating, they took a closer look. As Blacklaws directed the men to pole the boat silently toward the shore, Gates and Blacklaws discussed the situation in subdued tones. Gates wanted some real trophy-sized ivory, well over a hundred pounds if at all possible, and quickly decided to let Blacklaws take this one if he wanted it. This was part of their understanding on elephant safaris. Gates got first choice of ivory, and if he picked first, Blacklaws got the next elephant even if it carried better ivory. If Gates turned one down, as he did with this one, Blacklaws could take it. He took it. They made an easy stalk, coming upwind slowly and cautiously, careful to make no noise. Elephants have poor eyesight, but their senses of hearing and smell are acute. From twenty-five yards, Blacklaws belted the bull between the ear and the eye for a classic side brain shot with a five-hundred-grain solid from his .470 for an instant kill. Later, when they checked in, the tusks weighed 92 and 94-1/2 pounds. For four more days, they hunted along the Nile with the boat, then beached it at their fly camp on the Aswa River. They had about two gallons of gas left, little more than enough to get back up the river to their base camp. They sent the locals off on scouting trips and hunted along the Aswa River and in the surrounding country on foot, covering six to ten miles a day. They saw more elephants, a couple with ivory that tantalized Gates, but nothing that they figured would go over a hundred pounds. Footsore and weary, they had about decided to take the boat back to base camp for more fuel when one of the locals came in with news of big elephant tracks. He had followed them for half a day before he turned back to report. Big tracks don't guarantee big ivory, but the urge to follow them up for a look is nearly irresistible. "Tell you what," Gates suggested, "We have to go back for more gas, so let's run down the river and take a quick look." Gates pulled the boat in about a mile above the small valley where the local had found the big tracks. The wind was coming from the west, so they cut inland and intersected the trail. The tracks really were big, nearly two feet in diameter. Where the ground was soft, they were deep. The trail angled north toward the Nile. Two hours and several miles farther, the tracks entered a high stand of papyrus in a swampy bend of the river. Both Wangi and Nzomo had been carefully checking the tracks and the occasional mounds of dung. The signs were fresh. "He probably is in there somewhere," Blacklaws whispered. "I'll send Wangi to the lower end just to make sure he hasn't come out." Ten minutes later, Wangi came back at a dead run, motioning downriver. "Pembe m'kubwa," he gasped - (big tusks). The hunters took off at a fast jog. Wangi unleashed a torrent of whispers. The elephant was in the water at the edge of the river, slowly moving downstream. Wangi had caught a glimpse of him crossing an opening in the screen of papyrus. They stopped once to get air into their straining lungs and to double-check the air movement. It was still right, coming-in from the river. Shortly, they reached a little point of land at the edge of the river, just below the papyrus swamp. The bull would have to come by there if he kept moving downriver. Then they heard water sloshing. Blacklaws pointed silently to where the tall papyrus was moving. The hunters crouched behind a clump of small bushes as the bull came ponderously on. It couldn't have taken another five minutes for the elephant to cover the remaining distance, but as always it seemed like an eternity. Once, Gates gently eased the bolt of his .300 open to make sure there was a cartridge in the chamber, then made sure that the variable scope was turned down to 2x, its lowest magnification. Suddenly, he wished that he had Blacklaws' other .470 double. This was going to be a close shot. Just then, the bull came out into the open, belly-deep in the water, not forty yards from Gates. His huge stained tusks took Gates's breath away. They looked as big as telephone poles as he held them up out of the water. Oblivious to everything but the huge bull, Gates stood up, raised his rifle for what should have been an easy side shot, and fired. The bullet hit him, but he didn't go down. Somehow, Gates had not placed the bullet in the right spot to hit the brain. He had either flinched or had a sudden flash of buck fever, something that hadn't bothered him for thirty years. The big elephant swung around toward the river, away from Gates, and took two or three steps out into deeper water before Gates could work the bolt, bring the rifle to bear again, and place the second bullet behind his ear for an angle brain shot. This time, he was lucky. The bull sank slowly in the water as his legs buckled - and to Gates's horror, he went down out of sight, completely submerged. Blacklaws grasped the implications of this a second or two before Gates did. "My God!" he exclaimed, white-faced. "If he gets into the current, we've lost him!" Gates's instant elation at downing the huge bull turned as quickly to despair at the thought. "Quick!" Blacklaws said, still thinking ahead of Gates. "You run for the boat and bring it here. We've got that one coil of heavy rope. I'll have the boys braid a bark rope, and I'll dive down and try to fasten it to him before the crocs come in." Gates said that as long as he lived, he'd never forget the agony of that lung-searing marathon. It would be an outrageous cliche to say that he died a hundred times during that excruciating jog back to the boat, but it is true. His one quick look at those huge tusks was enough for him to know that this elephant carried the biggest ivory that he'd ever seen. Gates guessed their weight at a hundred fifty pounds or more, with his thoughts of their size constantly being replaced by visions of swarming crocodiles pulling the huge carcass off into the deep current of the river. If that happened, the hunters would never recover the tusks. What a tremendous relief it was, just at dusk, to pull the boat in and to see Blacklaws's thumbs-up gesture. But the hunters weren't home yet by a long shot. He had managed to get the heavy bark ropes around two of the legs that were only a few feet under the surface of the murky water. The weight of the massive tusks had turned the carcass upside-down; they now rested on the river bottom in at least fifteen feet of water. "What we have to do now," Blacklaws said, "is to go back to base camp and get that roll of three-eighths steel cable that I carry in the Land Rover. We can make some slip loops, and by using the boat and long poles, I think we can get the cable around the tusks. It's the only chance we have. Right now, let's get the rope on one of the legs." It was soon dark, but with the aid of a full moon and flashlights, they finally got the heavy rope on one of the elephant's legs at about the same time that one of the bark ropes parted. Gates and Blacklaws left one rifle and most of the ammunition with Nzomo, with instructions to fire a shot in the water every half hour for what little good it would do to discourage the crocs, and to build a big fire on the bank and have the two locals bring up a hollow log and pound on that - anything to try to keep the crocs away. At the base camp, Gates made slip loops in the steel cable while Blacklaws rounded up as many locals as the boat would carry. Gates never did get a head count, but there must have been fifteen. At that point, he and Blacklaws had thoughts of dragging the elephant out of the water with sheer manpower. They reached the scene just as dawn was breaking. The ammunition was all gone, and the second bark rope had parted, probably the work of crocs. Fortunately, the heavy manila rope still held. It would be tedious to describe the long, desperate, agonizing hours of trial and failure, as well as the constant distraction of the crocs, before they got the cables looped and tightened on both tusks. Only then, with aching arms and blistered hands, did they relax for the first time in thirty hours. Gratefully, they lit cigars and took alternate pulls at a bottle of peach brandy. Shortly, they had our first bit of hot food. "Let the crocs chew on him now," Blacklaws said. "Maybe then we can drag out what they leave, with all hands on the cables." They tried. It didn't work. The clamp popped off one cable, and they had to go through the whole agonizing business again to refasten it. "A few days out in the sun," Blacklaws remarked once, "and you can slip the tusks out of an elephant without chopping. But under water - I don't know. It might take longer. All we can do now is wait." "Until Christmas if necessary," Gates said grimly. "I'm not leaving here without those tusks." They rigged up a series of poles that kept a constant pull of several hundred pounds on the cables. Then Gates stayed while Blacklaws took men in the boat to strike their Aswa River fly camp, then set it up again where they watched over the sunken ivory. While they waited, they hashed over the event with the usual hindsight but finally agreed that Gates had made the right move by shooting at the instant when the opportunity presented itself. If he had waited, the elephant might have come out onto dry ground - or he might have detected us and churned back into the papyrus, or out into the river, or any other of several possibilities. If they raised the tusks, their long discussions would be academic. On the fifth day, they heard a shout from one of the men watching the cables. One cable was slack. Carefully, they hauled it in. All hands screamed with exhilaration when that beautiful great stained tusk slid up onto the bank. They put more pull on the other cable, and four hours later, they slid the second big tusk out onto the bank of the Nile. It was almost a perfect match for the first one. Both were long and extremely massive, carrying their weight well out toward the tips. "I'm afraid to guess the weight," Blacklaws said, shaking his head, "but that's the heaviest ivory I've ever laid eyes on." Later, at a small village on the way back, they weighed in at 179 and 184 pounds. Even after the herculean task of raising the tusks from the waters of the Nile, Gates still didn't have them home yet. Even more problems lay ahead, including theft, political intrigue, and almost confiscation. In Kampala, a pompous commissioner was closing out his career. He decided that he would take them back to England as souvenirs of his term in Africa. He tried every trick in the book - legal, illegal, and political, to the point of confiscation - to get control of the ivory. Gates and Blacklaws were forced to bury them before leaving Uganda, and it was nearly a year before Blacklaws could get back and take them out in his lorry, first to the Congo and then into French Equatorial Africa, to arrange for shipment to Gates. After being stolen from the shipping agent, taken into Ruanda, then recovered with rewards and bribes, and smuggled back into French territory, another year went by before Gates finally got them. When they arrived in America, Gates had them officially weighed and measured. Each tusk was eight feet, eleven inches long on the outside curve. Their circumferences were 24 and 24-1/2 inches, their weights 176 and 181-1/2 pounds. Big ivory! And this hunt had taught Gates that if you shoot an elephant in the waters of the Nile, don't count on the ivory until you get it home. Copyright © 2006 Dr Kenneth E Howell. All rights reserved. ________________________________________________________ Copyright © 2000-2007 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Visit Our Sponsors _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Wow! Amazing story...and he did it with a bolt action! Just think...if he'd been using a Blaser R93 he might have gotten that second shot off fast enough to avoid all those aquatic exercises! | |||
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Just a stupid stunt by someone with no courage. An Ele is a great animal and deserves better. The hunter is a clown. I've killed only one but at least it was at 10 yards. -Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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I think that many on this thread are missing the real point of this thread. In the first quote above, from Lionhunter, asks very legit questions, specifics. The second quote above, is mine, on my first post. I state, I cannot think of ONE good reason to open up the first shot at 100+ yards. Of all the BullShit scenarios that have been kicked around, some by experienced DG hunters, some by F*****G Deer hunters, I actually found ONE scenario that might be fitting for such an opening shot and that was presented by my old buddy 465HH... Which was not a BS Scenario, but something that actually occurred. In that sort of situation, a danger animal to the locals, then yes, I also would take whatever shot I could get into the bastard, then solve the problem. MJines, another buddy, brings up a wonderful scenario for us to think about, that elusive 100 pounder. What would we do? Would the Ivory take over all thought process, like a bull in rut? For many it most certainly would. Very much like thinking with your pecker, and not your brain! Have we done that before? Only a scenario, which is fairly unlikely. A "Deer" hunter thinks that is an easy shot, does it on "Deer" all the time. What a F*****G joke to put a GD Deer in the same category as an elephant! My apologies to deer hunters, but that is more than I can bear!!! It has F**K All to do with being able to make the shot, that is not the issue. Ethical? I could give a shit about so called ethics personally. These are individual rights and totally up to the individual on the scene, at the moment, and no one else's GD business. Hunter? Not sure exactly what Mike is asking on this, but I don't believe this particular hunter is an experienced shooter, I can't speculate beyond that... ???? PH? Pretty sure that Mike is asking should the PH allowed such a shot. My opinion is NO... Not in that particular real life situation... Not a cooked up scenario. This was no 100 pounder, this was no elephant that was a danger to the locals, this elephant in the dark, with other elephants, at 125 yds... Absolutely NOT. There seemed to be no particular problem that would justify allowing an inexperienced shooter do this? Too Far? In my opinion YES, in particular taking the actual situation into account. There was no reason for this. Too many problems can arise and did at this distance. Could those same problems come up at 25 yards? Of course they could, but the chances of solving this issue at 25 yards are FAR FAR better than the chances of solving the problem at 125 yards!!! If you do not understand that very simple concept, then you are beyond any logic or reason. And I will not argue that point at all, as you are too stupid to understand that, then I do not intend to waste any time on you. This was real, because it was 125 yards, inexperienced shooter, this elephant was lost, and the problem was NOT SOLVED, and the hunter did not meet his obligation and responsibility, even though it appears he attempted. No valid reason to open that first shot at 125 yds in this real life situation as I see it. End of Story Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Sounds like you are taking lessons from Obama with that "harmful element" aspersion you cast on those of us who prefer to use doubles and get close to dangerous game. Guess you're not interested in having my business or that of any of us who feel that getting close and using a double is a fulfilling way to hunt elephant and other dangerous game. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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I did not take Mark's comment that way, although I guess he could have intended it that way (and I know that he occasionally suffers from double rifle envy). I understood him to mean that the constant drum beat might mean that someone that is not comfortable hunting with a double, or hunting elephant at 20 yards, might come away thinking that doing so is the only acceptable way to do such a hunt. Truth be told, while some prefer to be up close and personal others may prefer to do their shooting at 40-50 yards (or even longer on a hundred pounder ) with a bolt action rifle, maybe even . . . [cringe] one with a scope. I do not think anyone on this thread is suggesting there is just one "right" way to hunt elephant, they are just expressing their view and preference for doing a tracking hunt that gets the hunter up close, with a double. Any way, that is how I took the comment. I would not want anyone considering an elephant hunt to be put off of a hunt for the reason that they wanted to use a bolt action rifle and were not comfortable getting within 20 yards of the elephant simply because they felt others would judge them to have hunted in the wrong way. Mike | |||
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I murdered every elephant I have ever shot with a bolt gun and scope, ranges from 3 yds to max 50 yards, but the long range 50 yd was only one and he was running, yes I am ashamed of myself, and it was murder outright..... ..... all the rest have been well under 35-40. But every one with bolt/scope.... ..... I am too ignorant to learn how to use anything else... Maybe a lever gun and scope??? LOL........ Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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You are still rationalizing an excuse for screwing up a shot. If you cannot shoot don't criticize others that can. Like I said if there is a problem you caused it not me or someone else.
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You can always rely on Michael to tell us how he really feels! Signed: A F*****g deer hunter! Hey Michael, cut us deer hunters some slack. We're nice people too! Good light, steady rest, stationary elephant with big tusks, hell yes I'd take the shot if getting closer wasn't possible. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Reading comprehension issue????
I see no rationalization at all.... Stated a fact.... Statement, not excuse or rationalization.... I have no idea what you are talking about???? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Paul, I took Mark's statement exactly the same way you interpreted it. I understand his point on maximizing the first time DG hunter's opportunity to successfully kill everything on his "list". From a business standpoint, which Mark is "in the business" it makes sense both in terms of revenue generated and in happy clients who may return. With that set up, yea, a scoped .375 with proper PH back up and you are all set to go!! However, here on AR, probably to a larger extent than anywhere else I can cite, there is a heavy emphasis on the experience of the hunt, instead of simply getting out of the cruiser to "whack and stack". How often have we listened to Ivan Carter speak of today's elephant hunting in terms of the experience being the real trophy? Hundred pounders are about as plentiful as unicorns today. For the most part, we are hunting 40's, 50's, even 60's with occasional 70's and very rarely 80's such as Aaron took a couple of years back. For me, and only me, no one else has to see it my way, I see little difference between a mid 40 lbs ele and a mid 50 lbs ele! Consider this, a long slender 45 lb set of tusks can easily "look" more impressive than a short fat set of tusks that weigh 60 lbs. In fact, they could be of the exact same exterior dimensions but one having a much larger nerve cavity than the other!! That being said, what pleasure is experienced sitting in your trophy room, looking at those tusks? Well, I suggest it's the experience you remember from the hunt of course! Oh sure, I know that some enjoy showing off theirs is bigger than yours when company comes over to drink a few beers and watch the ball game. But most of the time, you'll simply look at those tusks and remember your hunt. I want it to be a remembrance of a great event, perhaps days spent on the track, watching the guys work their bushcraft magic, the emotional roller coaster of downs seeing the track merge into a herd, and the high of seeing the trackers identify and regain the trail, putting you back on the quest. The repeated let downs of following for several miles, only to find at the end of the track, a bull with large feet and small teeth. You are amazed at how easily such a large animal can completely disappear in just a small amount of jesse bush, and how easily and quietly they move throughout it. Then finally, after a great struggle, the bull, your bull, is found. You, along with your PH, close the distance, realize how majestic these giants of the earth are, and finally settle the account, often being overwhelmed by what you've just done. For me, and again, no one else has to participate in the same manner, that's what a set of ivory means to me in my trophy room. Sure I want the largest set of tusks we can manage, but ultimately, the remembrance of the hunt and the quest is what matters most. I simply do not want that memory to be driving over a hill, spotting a herd of animals, getting out of the truck and "whacking" him with a scoped rifle at a distance. If that works for you, it's your money and your memory. Who am I to tell you differently. Of course Jines is tempting us with the 100 pounder at 100 yards scenario. Food for thought at best. Ask him to tell of his recent quest over 21 days to bag two exceptional bulls, and with two double rifles. I know what the eventual outcome was, and I would be speculating here, but I'll bet Mike will tell us the quest was one of his great hunting experiences! Again, as I stated in my first post on the thread, there are two issues here. The experience and whether or not a "long" range shot at elephant should be taken from a practical standpoint. The first is purely subjective, the second contains elements of both subjectivity and objectivity. The objectivity being the practicality of back up shots should the first not get the job done and the likelihood at that range of the first shot doing the job. And in the case of the OP, it didn't and the animal was lost. Which really proves the point beyond all this armchair quarterbacking by the deer hunters with literary experience and the elephant hunters playing devil's advocate, doesn't it?! | |||
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Todd and Doc: Is there a divide here between the scoped bolt rifle guys and the double rifle guys? Heck, with a scoped bolt rifle and a steady rest, 125 yards is a chip shot and a heart/lung shot is a pretty big target. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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One hundred yards with my VC and Michael's "wunderbullets"..: USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I have to call BS-those are not even 458 cal bullet holes. | |||
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Dave, Not in my book - the only person who has to be satisfied in the end is the person who hunted the game. Everyone else is simply a spectator. I do though take great umbrage with someone calling me a "harmful element". NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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I think he was talking about Biebs. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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You can always rely on Michael to tell us how he really feels! Signed: A F*****g deer hunter! Hey Michael, cut us deer hunters some slack. We're nice people too! Good light, steady rest, stationary elephant with big tusks, hell yes I'd take the shot if getting closer wasn't possible.[/QUOTE] Dave..... Alias....... "F**K**G Deer Hunter".... HEH HEH.... I am glad you took that in jest, for yourself...... Others, I could give a damn. LOL........ I put in bold to my point of that particular post as to understand where I am going with it. I am not saying some, all or most of us could not make that shot, I am saying there was no reason to do this, in this exact situation. Not IN THE DARK, INEXPERIENCED SHOOTER, Non Danger Elephant, Not a 100 lb'er, and so forth, so on. No One will ever know where those shots went. A grand animal was lost, and there is no comparison between a F*****G Deer, and an Elephant, and a F*****G Deer Hunter that is running his ignorant mouth off to compare the two as equal, deserves what he gets from me. Now, I have PLENTY OF Ignorant ass Deer hunters surround me on a daily basis, and they get the same from me here as well, I am not Prejudice at all... LOL In fact, there are many times I allow them to remain ignorant, one time I recall one of them telling me how powerful his 7mm Remington magnum was, and there was no doubt in his mind that it was just the cartridge and rifle to use for elephant and buffalo!! Yes, its a fact. My reply was this, "Why Certainly, I think you should take it and do just that with it!" It was my hope that the human gene pool would, how do we say it, "Become Less Contaminated"............... Dave, Ya see, when it comes to deer hunting, I am just as ignorant, as I don't deer hunt and don't give a hoot in hell about it, difference is, I would never even consider going and telling a "Deer Hunter" how to go about his business, having no or almost no experience in "Deer Hunting". Me? If I had an interest, I'd be seeking advise from those "Deer Hunters". The point of matter is NOT WHETHER OR NOT THE SHOT CAN BE DONE....... Should it be done, and if so, what justification is there for it? And...... When bad things happen, REGARDLESS OF RANGE........ the chances of solving this issue at 25 yards are FAR FAR better than the chances of solving the problem at 125 yards!!! In this exact situation being discussed.... Not a Scenario......... Jorge......
By damn that is some mighty FINE SHOOTING............... For you "Deer Hunters", a VC does not stand for Volkswagon Convertable... It stands for Verney-Carron, a make of "Double RIfle".. You know, Like your Savage side by side Shotgun, only a rifle chambered in 450 Nitro Express........... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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No Dave, no divide between the scoped bolt and double guys. At least not on my part. I've got more scoped bolt guns than doubles. Hell, I've even got a scoped double. Used it to take a lion last year as you know. And as you and I have discussed before, I'm not a purist. I don't shoot Woodlieghs in my doubles because of the way they look right, I shoot CEB and North Fork because, although they don't "look" period correct, they perform better. I like the K-Gun's cocking device because of is safety feature. I like the 500/416NE even though it isn't conventional, but it gives Rigby performance in a double rifle. So no, I'm not hung up on convention. And I agree that with a scoped rifle, hitting an elephant in the "right spot" at 125 yards should be easy. It's not the "hitting" of the target that is in question. It's the effect of that hit and the ability to properly deal with the consequences thereafter. Again, ask the guys with elephant hunting experience, not simply reading about it in a book or watching it on DVD, but in the field experience. Ask them how many of their elephants were shot at more than 40 yards. Hell, you could probably get very close to the same answer by asking them how many were shot at more than 25 yards! I wonder why that is? Has to be a reason, don't you think? Especially with such a large heart/lung target area, right? What could that reason be for almost exclusively taking very close shots on elephants? I suggest the answer is probably related to the second question you should ask them. Specifically, how many of their elephant kills have been accomplished with a single shot fired? To date, I've not accomplished it with a single round. They have all taken a follow up shot or shots. Even on heart/lung shots, you're using a solid, not an expanding bullet. Because of that, I've never heard of a responsible hunter taking a single shot at the heart/lung area on a elephant, then standing back to see how it works out in the same manner one would shoot a deer or elk. Simply stated, the further away you are on that first shot, the worse your chances for follow up shots. Walt talks about the likelihood of brush interfering at close range. I'd suggest that the further one is away from the target, the MORE likely brush will obscure the animal as it runs from the scene, not to mention mixing in of other animals as well as the difficulty of accurate bullet placement on an animal that is now running and getting yet further away. For all the ele's size, the target area for back up shots on a retreating elephant are not that easy to identify, let alone hit! You're basically left with hitting the spine or the ball joint, possibly the femur. | |||
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Not with me, I think I have way more double rifle BUDDYS than those ignorant ass long range bolt gun and scope guys.......... I don't see an issue at all................ http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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NO, he was NOT! | |||
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Exactly................. Voice of EXPERIENCE............. http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Don't get upset....Just joking Todd. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Michael, the lack of followup shot opportunity is a major concern here, but factually what does your experience tell us about the physics of a solid at 125 yds. If the ele was broadside at 125 yds and shot with a 450 gr solid at 2150 fps muzzle vel, would that solid penetrate to give a double lung hit? If the answer is no or uncertain then all this discussion about shooting ability is moot and the only option would be a CNS shot and that would be a pretty tough shot at 125 yds and from there the potential for a mess becomes super high. At that point the hunting ethics are quite different if the physics say it just wouldn't work. Of course many hunters are quite ignorant about the capability of their bullet once it leaves the barrel (although no one that reads AR should have that excuse)! I hunt to live and live to hunt! | |||
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Dave, not upset with you at all. | |||
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No one cares what you think---he shoots better groups at 100 with a double than you do at what ever distance you lie about with your 100 shot worn out bolt guns. | |||
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Hunt99..... You bring up an excellent point, and is something to be considered... Short answer, believe it or not, is that most any solid, as long as it maintains its stability, would be able to reach far side of an elephant, at that 125 yard range. Starting at 2150 or so, the velocity would be down to something close to 1500-1600 fps at that range. With the FN solids you would be loosing a lot of "Thump" at impact, but penetration would not be an issue, I doubt you would get too many exits... But depending on what was contacted, bone in particular, its even possible one might exit under the right circumstance. Now, maybe 465HH can chime in with some of his experience here, concerning elephant lungs, I am personally under the opinion that an elephant can go a long way with a lung shot, as I understand, lungs are actually attached to the chest cavity wall to keep them from collapsing because of their size. So, when shot through the lungs, unlike other critters, elephant lungs do not collapse. The last elephant I shot, even at close range, I made a mistake, and did not hit the heart, as it was I actually only hit 1 lung. While this elephant did not go too far, 75 yds or so through some very thick brush, he still had a LOT OF FIGHT in him! Now on the followup, there was a hell of a lot of blood. Had that been the heart shot I was trying for, then it would have been OVER well within that distance. Now, all you "F**k**G Deer" hunters, I started this dance off at about 12 maybe 15 yards, and I missed the HEART! So you say, "That stupid bastard can't shoot", and you might be right, I ain't saying you are wrong! But, I was on my hands and knees when I opened that dance, I had a 6-8 inch window through brush I was looking through, I lined up for a side brain, and almost had the trigger squeeze complete, when he very abruptly turned his head away, I dropped immediately down to what appeared to be the heart area, but could not see the angle correct, and missed bigger than hell! So there...... Make of it what you please. As his two buddies ran off to my left, he was facing to my right, headed that way, turned around to follow his buds, and I hit him again on the run, thru the brush, and caught him a tad too far back, still down below brush on my knees, but got another round into him, and that was good. He was out of shooting at that point, and followup in order. Well, that ended up not being as short as I thought....... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael458, I ansawered your question on the effectivness of hear/lung shots in the "Why a Brain shot " thread. You are correct on the anatomy of the lungs in elephant. "I do disagree with the opinion expressed here that it is difficult to kill an elephant with a heart/lung shot. In my experience and Don Heath has backed me on this, elephants are quite easily killed with a properly placed heart/lung or lung only shot. They seem to die just about as quickly and travel about as far as a mule deer hit with a similar shot. I have had them go down as close as 30 ft and as far as 100 yards. About the same as deer do in my experience. You do have to be very careful on angled heart/lung shots because if you only get one lung you could be in for a long track and possibly a lost elephant." 465H&H | |||
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465HH.... Thanks H... I knew you could make sure I was on track with the anatomy of elephant lungs. I concur 110% with you on heart shots, its over quickly, of the heart shots I have done on elephant I have not had one go over 50 yards max.... Most closer. one a matter of turning and down, thank goodness... And yes, I screwed the pooch on that one, and caught only one lung. Fortunately he did not go far before turning and waiting on us. Or unfortunately it could have been. Thanks again............ Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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