Kids! They've been taking self-esteem classes all their lives and believe it.

Vlam, give it up. Go read the classics.

Be careful with those elephants. They can be nasty.

The 458 WM would have to shoot a 500gr solid to be a stoping rifle and it can only shoot it at about 2000 fps.
My lott can shoot it at 2355. Alot more power.

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
The 458 WM would have to shoot a 500gr solid to be a stoping rifle and it can only shoot it at about 2000 fps.
My lott can shoot it at 2355. Alot more power.

Wrong answer. If you can't exceed 2,000 fps with a 500 grain bullet, reloading your win mag, maybe you need to take up a different hobby.

JPK

Thanks for putting me right, all these years I have trusted in the opinions of those lesser mortals who have hunted and observed those game park elephants that eat out of your hand. I wonder then if those elephant in Mozambique would have taken peanuts from us. It is after all only a few years of civil war and constant persecution that they had faced. Hell, they must be hopping up and down with excitement every time they see a native with an ak and a pocket full of peanuts

I am battling to find the post now, but I do believe that this topic has been hashed before on this forum. There several PH's with vast amounts of DG experience and our very own Saeed, who has shot his fair share of elephants echoed my opinions.
It was a thread on Taylors KO values and was solidly proven that these were indeed nothing more than a fantasy.

Now if slaying of elephants was mandatory experience necessary before being allowed to pass comment or share information gathered then would that not exclude most of the people on the forum from the discussion.
What I have gleaned from people with years of experience in culling elephants I do believe has a hell of a lot more sway than what you have dreamed up whilst being lead by the hand around the bush. I don't ask anyone to believe what I say no did I ever set myself up as an elephant hunter, much less and expert. What I did do and have done for many years was to share the information which I am very privileged to have gained through close contact with some of the most experienced and seasoned professionals in the wildlife industry.
If you take offense to this then you are not much of a man at all, but rather a control freak and a rude one at that. You may be impressing your two monkeys in the peanut gallery, but from the steady stream of support i have received it would seem that your attitude and general rude behavior has been less than impressive to the rest of the members.
Good day
Ian

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
The 458 WM would have to shoot a 500gr solid to be a stoping rifle and it can only shoot it at about 2000 fps.
My lott can shoot it at 2355. Alot more power.

Wrong answer. If you can't exceed 2,000 fps with a 500 grain bullet, reloading your win mag, maybe you need to take up a different hobby.

+1
As Whitworth correctly stated, it's the Wrong answer. The only way that your not getting over 2000 fps is that your shooting 458wm ammo in your 458Lott, because of the increased chamber area pressures decrease, velocity decreases.

quote:

+1
As Whitworth correctly stated, it's the Wrong answer. The only way that your not getting over 2000 fps is that your shooting 458wm ammo in your 458Lott, because of the increased chamber area pressures decrease, velocity decreases.

I loose 50 fps shooting 375 h and h ammo in my 375 improved.

I have chronographed this many times.

Also had a 458 Ruger #1 briefly which had a really long throat, and was about same amount off a bolt action w Remington factory SP's. My 375 Ruger #1 also had a very long throat and seating long would almost equal a 375 improved but it hurt too much!

I think a lawyer designed the chamber specs for Ruger at this time. Dont know if they are still so long nowdays. this was in early 1980's.

Andy

Ian, give it up.

For whatever reason, there are many many cases where a charging elephant is shot in the face by a heavy rifle and stops charging.

Everyone knows this.

Sincerely,

A member of JPK's "peanut gallery."

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
The 458 WM would have to shoot a 500gr solid to be a stoping rifle and it can only shoot it at about 2000 fps.
My lott can shoot it at 2355. Alot more power.

I can shoot a 500 grain Barnes monolithic solid at 2200 fps from a .458WM with a 22" barrel, using handloads which do not show any particular pressure signs.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I can shoot a 500 grain Barnes monolithic solid at 2200 fps from a .458WM with a 22" barrel, using handloads which do not show any particular pressure signs.

Hey Indy,
With that line you keep deflating the balloon of the "L" lovers!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

A certified member of "The Peanut Gallery".

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
...has a hell of a lot more sway than what you have dreamed up whilst being lead by the hand around the bush...If you take offense to this then you are not much of a man at all...two monkeys in the peanut gallery...
Good day
Ian

If the PH thing doesn’t work out for you, I think you will do great in customer service at Chrysler Group, LLC!

Why is it that the more expensive something is the worse the customer experience has to be? The fast food joint screws up my $7 order and they will usually smile, apologize, ask nicely if they don’t understand how it is screwed up, make it right and apologize again for the wait. Buy a $30,000 automobile or (dear God help you) a $300,000 “dream” home and immediately you are made to feel as though your concerns or comments are beneath the great provider and you are lucky they choose to “give” you what they did (you ignorant and ungrateful bastard).

I haven’t spent a dime at African Bush Safaris and already I hate the place. Why would you put your link at the bottom of a post where you berate potential customers? It doesn’t matter if he’s wrong or not, obviously you have contempt for people who can afford your services. I will point out that data was given by “mere customers” showing larger guns equaled more success. You dismissed this because the gun owners, yes those dumb bastards who spent money on a product (this time a gun) must not have known how to use them. I’m detecting a pattern here.

It’s ok to have contempt for your customers but effectively advertising it doesn’t seem intelligent. I’m just imagining my 7-day adventure of ridicule where all my questions are childish, comments are berated, problems are my fault (and therefore mine to fix or live with) and my guide will constantly boast how much bigger his gun, penis and intellect are than mine. Yeah, I can’t wait to slam a wad of cash down on that fun. I suppose I should apologize for being such a burden when I leave the tip?

""The bull may have heard , or sensed him, and spun around and came in the most determined charge a bull elephant could hope to make. In a split second the bull was smashing through the trees which screened him from a clear shot although Ivan very narrowly missed the brain( so much for stunning a bull with a .577)""

This is a short excerpt from a post from Dave Fulson concerning one of Ivan Carters recent adventures. Clearly showing that regardless of what one may carry to the field "Old Murphy" can kick in at any moment and actually find an animal (elephant in this case) that neglected to read the book! It is obvious had this elephant been involved in this thread alone, he would have dropped at the shot from being stunned! But as it is, this animal did not know he was supposed to be knocked unconscious, or that he was supposed to turn and run. Must be the school system for elephants in this area, or something? Who Knows!

Now before some smartass takes my simple words literally--This is of course a figure of speech so to "Speak". Of course animals can't read and I am aware of that!

The point of fact is that "Not All Animals-Elephants in this case-Are Created Equal". A charge may be stopped 5 times with your favorite "Charge Stopping Bullet/Rifle/Cartridge" combination, regardless of what it is. But just maybe that 6th or 7th or 18th time, you could face an animal that has not been shown the book and does not know he is supposed to surrender!

So we consider the averages and hopefully choose what is "Most Likely" to work a large percentage of the times encountered! For me alone and nothing more it starts with 458 caliber bullets-450 to 500 grs. from 2100 + fps. Probably starting a fuss, but for me I will keep 458 caliber as a minimum.

But one must keep in mind--Nothing we take or can hand carry will do it 110% of the time-each and every time! You might get away with it 99 times, but there is always the possibility that on time 100 it don't work!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by makeminestainless:

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
...has a hell of a lot more sway than what you have dreamed up whilst being lead by the hand around the bush...If you take offense to this then you are not much of a man at all...two monkeys in the peanut gallery...
Good day
Ian

If the PH thing doesn’t work out for you, I think you will do great in customer service at Chrysler Group, LLC!

Why is it that the more expensive something is the worse the customer experience has to be? The fast food joint screws up my $7 order and they will usually smile, apologize, ask nicely if they don’t understand how it is screwed up, make it right and apologize again for the wait. Buy a $30,000 automobile or (dear God help you) a $300,000 “dream” home and immediately you are made to feel as though your concerns or comments are beneath the great provider and you are lucky they choose to “give” you what they did (you ignorant and ungrateful bastard).

I haven’t spent a dime at African Bush Safaris and already I hate the place. Why would you put your link at the bottom of a post where you berate potential customers? It doesn’t matter if he’s wrong or not, obviously you have contempt for people who can afford your services. I will point out that data was given by “mere customers” showing larger guns equaled more success. You dismissed this because the gun owners, yes those dumb bastards who spent money on a product (this time a gun) must not have known how to use them. I’m detecting a pattern here.

It’s ok to have contempt for your customers but effectively advertising it doesn’t seem intelligent. I’m just imagining my 7-day adventure of ridicule where all my questions are childish, comments are berated, problems are my fault (and therefore mine to fix or live with) and my guide will constantly boast how much bigger his gun, penis and intellect are than mine. Yeah, I can’t wait to slam a wad of cash down on that fun. I suppose I should apologize for being such a burden when I leave the tip?

Come on, to be fair, he was getting piled on, so he gave it back. Pitty that certain topics make folks emotional enough to close off the prospect of real, honest-to-goodness discussion.

Michael, I applaud you for being the voice of reason......

quote:

Come on, to be fair, he was getting piled on, so he gave it back. Pitty that certain topics make folks emotional enough to close off the prospect of real, honest-to-goodness discussion.

YES-In full agreement!

Michael, I applaud you for being the voice of reason......

We all belong in the same family, we are shooters, hunters, handloaders, gun nuts! I see little reason to attack each other, when in fact we should all try and learn something from each other and circle the wagons! The wolves are from without--not from within!

Michael

quote:

Also, I'd bet that the camera lens used during the photo sequence of JPK's shot was set on wide angle, which would account for the deceptive appearance of the distance in the pics versus what the actual distance was measured at after the fact.

True.

quote:

What I have gleaned from people with years of experience in culling elephants I do believe has a hell of a lot more sway than what you have dreamed up whilst being lead by the hand around the bush.

Viam,

You are an inexperienced rube. Do yourself a favor and read Ron Thomson's book "Mahahoba" and Richard Harland's books "The Hunting Imperative" and "Ndlovu, The art of Hunting the African Elephant". Both of these fellows hunted elephants on foot, with just their trackers and their rifles. Each killed on order of 4,000-5,000 elephants.

Both used a variety of rifles and cartridges, but both came to rely on the 458wm.

BTW, Richard Harland posts here on AR.

It is true that even having killed 18 elephants, all while guided by PH's with a lot of elephant experience, that I am yet a beginner in the life long pursuit of elephants and still relatively early on the learning curve. {Unlike you, I realize that. And in any event, my experience far, far outweighs yours, as does that of a pretty substantial number of hunters here. Some on this thread.} The more I hunt elephants, the more I realize how little I know about hunting elephants, but that will change. My goal is to learn with each opportunity, relying on the PH more as a coach, and less and less as time passes and experience grows, until I am leading the hunts, from when to wake up in time to get to where I expect to find good tracks all the way through the approach.

Approaching elephants with the intention of walking away and leaving them, preferably undisturbed, is a relatively low key, low risk endeavor. Approaching them with the intention of killing one is entirely different, the more so when there are more than one and cows present. When you approach until your target elephant wheels to face you, and certainly once you pull the trigger, there is no turning back, and there is no predicting what will occur, even with a perfect brain shot. This is something you will only learn when you have had the experience of actually hunting elephants.

JPK

quote:

My goal is to learn with each opportunity, relying on the PH more as a coach, and less and less as time passes and experience grows, until I am leading the hunts, from when to wake up in time to get to where I expect to find good tracks all the way through the approach.

You sound like LV Eric now! Sounds like a plan to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
The 458 WM would have to shoot a 500gr solid to be a stoping rifle and it can only shoot it at about 2000 fps.
My lott can shoot it at 2355. Alot more power.

I can shoot a 500 grain Barnes monolithic solid at 2200 fps from a .458WM with a 22" barrel, using handloads which do not show any particular pressure signs.

The fundamental design and intent of the .458 WM is to push 500 gr. at 2200 fps.

These days it's done without compressed loads.

The one design of the .458 Lott is that it provides more case capacity and eliminates the need for compressed loads to meet the 500 gr. / 2200 fps. criteria.

But modern powders now allow this 500 gr / 2200 fps performance in the .458 WM without resorting to a compressed charge -- which creates "issues" in the African heat.

The .458 WM is to African DG hunting what the 30-06 Spfd is to centerfire rifle calibers.

Anyone seen any of the new Winchester safari ammo. They are touting 2200 and change with a 500 gr Nosler solid (458 win mag).
It would be interesting to chrono their offering. The Nosler should be similar to the Barnes solid. It is a monolithic.

EZ

I really like my .458

It's versatile and effective in my Whitworth.
With good powder it's a ripper.



Cheers
Tinker

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Anyone seen any of the new Winchester safari ammo. They are touting 2200 and change with a 500 gr Nosler solid (458 win mag).
It would be interesting to chrono their offering. The Nosler should be similar to the Barnes solid. It is a monolithic.

EZ

I received some of the new Winchester 458 ammo for testing and reported chrono results in the last issue of African Hunter Magazine. Short story is they have reduce the advertised velocity to 2,100 fps because while they could get the advertised 2,240 fps, they couldn't maintain that velocity with consistency in production runs. I recorded velocities of 2,050 fps at 78 degrees from a 24" barrel with the solid and 1,974 fps with the Nosler Partition.

465H&H

quote:

I received some of the new Winchester 458 ammo for testing and reported chrono results in the last issue of African Hunter Magazine. Short story is they have reduce the advertised velocity to 2,100 fps because while they could get the advertised 2,240 fps, they couldn't maintain that velocity with consistency in production runs. I recorded velocities of 2,050 fps at 78 degrees from a 24" barrel with the solid and 1,974 fps with the Nosler Partition.

That's pretty lame, in my opinion. I expect that they're saying their production process can't hold +/- 1.0 grain powder accuracy consistently. Or maybe they insist on using their own powders instead of the correct powders.

quote:

The fundamental design and intent of the .458 WM is to push 500 gr. at 2200 fps.

These days it's done without compressed loads.

The one design of the .458 Lott is that it provides more case capacity and eliminates the need for compressed loads to meet the 500 gr. / 2200 fps. criteria.

But modern powders now allow this 500 gr / 2200 fps performance in the .458 WM without resorting to a compressed charge -- which creates "issues" in the African heat.

I don't know how to get 2200 without compressed loads. But who cares?

Could somebody tell me why compressed loads make any difference? And why the "African heat" is so special?

I've been shooting compressed loads in 30-06 and similar cartridges for match shooting at Camp Perry since 1960. And it gets in the 90s there, just like Zimbabwe in September.

Yes I've heard about all the rumors of .458 bullets bouncing off elephants some decades ago. Some said the powder clumped together. Some said the production process was so sloppy that powder sloshed out of the case. Some said the bullets were glued in and the glue melted and got into the powder.

In all cases, the solution seems very simple. Don't use Winchester ammo!!

Hi guys

Been following this heated topic for this last couple of days.Read this interesting artile.

Regards

.458 As a PH's Weapon

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

quote:

The fundamental design and intent of the .458 WM is to push 500 gr. at 2200 fps.

These days it's done without compressed loads.

The one design of the .458 Lott is that it provides more case capacity and eliminates the need for compressed loads to meet the 500 gr. / 2200 fps. criteria.

But modern powders now allow this 500 gr / 2200 fps performance in the .458 WM without resorting to a compressed charge -- which creates "issues" in the African heat.

I don't know how to get 2200 without compressed loads. But who cares?

Could somebody tell me why compressed loads make any difference? And why the "African heat" is so special?

I've been shooting compressed loads in 30-06 and similar cartridges for match shooting at Camp Perry since 1960. And it gets in the 90s there, just like Zimbabwe in September.

Yes I've heard about all the rumors of .458 bullets bouncing off elephants some decades ago. Some said the powder clumped together. Some said the production process was so sloppy that powder sloshed out of the case. Some said the bullets were glued in and the glue melted and got into the powder.

In all cases, the solution seems very simple. Don't use Winchester ammo!!

I have looked at this pretty closely. What I found out is that the early problems with 458 Win ammo were powder compaction and bullets breaking their crimps and moving forward. Both contributed to the low velocity problem. These problems didn't occur with all factory ammo. It appears that Winchester used some powders that were prone to the powder compacting and that compacting was more common in hot temperatures. The best guess is that some powders had a coating that was prone to cause the compaction. Other powders with a different coating did not compact. While it was a serious problem it wasn't as common as some believe but it only has to happen to you once on a charge to one time tooo many. Modern problems are much less prone to compact. The secret is to use fresh ammo and save the old stuff for the range. Almost all of the current factory 500 grain loads will give you 2,050 to 2,100 fps from a 24" barrel. You don't have to worry about fresh Winchester ammo, it is only the 50's or 60's ammo taht are a problemthe problem was not confined to Winchester ammo.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

I don't know how to get 2200 without compressed loads. But who cares?

Could somebody tell me why compressed loads make any difference? And why the "African heat" is so special?

I've been shooting compressed loads in 30-06 and similar cartridges for match shooting at Camp Perry since 1960. And it gets in the 90s there, just like Zimbabwe in September.

Yes I've heard about all the rumors of .458 bullets bouncing off elephants some decades ago. Some said the powder clumped together. Some said the production process was so sloppy that powder sloshed out of the case. Some said the bullets were glued in and the glue melted and got into the powder.

In all cases, the solution seems very simple. Don't use Winchester ammo!!

465H&H covered the powder issue quite well, and it was really the only problem the 458 win during the 60's.

African "heat" is the same as every other place's "heat". The difference is how you hunt in Africa and how much exposure to the heat your ammo will endure. Even so, it was mainly an issue with cordite and other early smokeless powders, most modern powders are not as heat sensitive, but there are those that still are (win 748 comes to mind). In the cordite days, you would have "tropical loads' that were loaded a bit lighter so they would still regulate (and not blow up) in the hotter climates.

John

Really slow this time of year, eh?

C'mon guys, it was pretty funny reading all this again!

My personal favourite was old mate saying you can only get 2000fps with a 500gn bullet in the .458WM - when I'm getting 2080fps with the 550gn Woodleigh out of mine.

This debate will never end...

The people who shoot the Lott and hate the .458WM will always hate the .458 and that will never change. Although I personally dislike the Lott it IS a fine round and if someone likes/ uses one then they are all set for Africa.

The people who like and defend the .458WM are right too.
It is a proven DG round and lets be honest guys, getting the promised velocity out of it is pretty easy nowadays...
Was the .458 concept a good idea when first released, maybe - maybe not, but with today's powders it does make sense and makes for a compact and efficient cartridge.

They basically do the same job, on the same animals and with well placed shots have the same result.
They both work and they're both fine DG rounds so take your pick and don't worry about what the next guy thinks!

Just my opinion of course...

Russ