Michael458,

How about we limit this to buffalo, what bullet would you use as a stopper?

Big bore boar hunter,

Please read my post more closely. The fast 50's are from a magazine rifle, the 577 NE 3" is from a double. Their terminal ballistics are very similar, trust me. BTW a fast 50 will drive a 600gr 0.510" bullet at or better than 2350 fps. You can look up the 577 NE 3" ballistics about anywhere, but they are a 750gr pill somewhere between 2000 and 2050 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by Don In Colorado:

quote:

Caliber is no substitute for aim.

I see this generic "truism"-type statement time and time again, but I think that this statement has to be reconciled with the fact that in 13 documented close range charges a 375-class rifle NEVER stopped a charge whereas in ALL three cases a 500-class rifle did stop the charge. I think that it is a bit extreme to think that in all of these cases the 500-class rifle shooters were that much better in their shooting than the ones carrying 375s or that basically the 375 shooters apparently could not hit the broadside of a barn.

If one assumes that all of shooters were generally equal (or that the 375 shooters were vern better) in their shooting ability then caliber selection is the most important component in stopping charges.

I think that most will agree a 375 is a poor choice in a stopping cartridge. The problem with these statistics is that they only tell part of the story. If it said "In stopping situations where a proper head shot was executed" I would feel more comfortable. The sample size is small, and there isn't but 3 samples of 500s being used. I haven't seen the full article so I will reserve judgement.

The other issue with these stories is that of the third variable. For example inexperience comes into play, which rifle is an inexperienced hunter likely to choose, a 375 or a 500? Where the 375's carrying solids or soft points? Very few 500 with soft points. Again, don't know all the facts so I can't comment.

The point of the statement is more that a poor shot with a 500 is not better than a well placed shot with a 458. However a well placed shot with a 500 gives you a higher probability of a kill than the same shot with a 458. If you can shoot tennis balls at 50 yds all day long with a 500, and I don't know many who can, your choice in rifles is a simple one. If you cant hit a bullseye target at 50 yds with your 500 at 50 yds, your choice of rifle is equally as likely to leave you flattened as the 375 H&H, so which is the better choice? I would imagine that most people who have 500's in their possession are avid shooters who practice often, and as such, are less likely to flub their shot.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Big bore boar hunter,

Please read my post more closely. The fast 50's are from a magazine rifle, the 577 NE 3" is from a double. Their terminal ballistics are very similar, trust me. BTW a fast 50 will drive a 600gr 0.510" bullet at or better than 2350 fps. You can look up the 577 NE 3" ballistics about anywhere, but they are a 750gr pill somewhere between 2000 and 2050 fps.

Terminal ballistics are affected by bullet diameter, sectional density, bullet weight, and velocity. There is nothing the same between a "fast 50" and a 577 NE. It doesn't matter if it is fired from a double, bolt, air rifle, or mag gun.

One could argue the effect on game is similar, and you would be right, dead is dead.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I probably know better than to jump back in this fray, but do feel compelled to take a look at both sides of the issue with some objectivity.

For the record I do agree that so called "stopping" bullets start at 458 caliber. I do believe in stopping bullets and cartridges can and do stop charges of all manner of dangerous game.

But the manner in which this works seems to be the issue at hand.

I am not quite sure that I am following Ian proper, but I think what he is trying to get at is that no bullet or cartridge that can be carried and shoulder fired is going to knock an elephant, or even other DG such as buffalo off their feet with shear physical mass, as we sometimes see in the movies a typical bad guy get blown 15 feet backwards by a handgun bullet! In Ian's definition of "stopping" he is 100% correct! No shoulder fired cannon is going to physically knock an elephant down, it is not possible to do so. How can a 500 gr bullet, just a tad over 1 oz, knock a 10000 lb plus animal down with pure physical mass? Not going to happen. Of course assuming that CNS is untouched or not effected. We were doing some test work here with a 600 OK last week. A 900 gr Woodleigh Soft at 1800 fps cannot move my bullet box and it does not come close to 10000 lbs. Nor can a 510 Wells and a 600 gr Woodleigh at 2350 fps. Physical knock down and stopping--this is what I "THINK" Vlam may be getting at. Although I am not 100% sure.

I have shot a few, and have seen a few elephants, buffalo, lion, and hippo. I believe in stopping bullets and cartridges! I know that JPK, 465, Will, and others are correct that stopping cartridges start at 458 caliber, and a 500 gr 458 caliber bullet at 2100 plus fps will in fact stop elephants and other dangerous game from stepping on, smashing, biting, and committing other mayhem on the shooter. But not from shear mass against mass. From having a big enough diameter bullet, hitting with enough force to cause trauma, energy transfer (causing headaches heh)and damage to said animal to cause it to either voluntarily or involuntarily rethink the course on which it may be embarked upon! The reactions you see from an animal taking impact of said bullets is not shear mass, it is an involuntary reaction to either pain or shock inflicted by the bullet, which is causing trauma and transfer of shock and energy to the subject. Therefore causing the animal to "stop", rethink the issue, turn, or attempt to recover, giving the shooter a second or third or more opportunity to solve the problem.

Yes the 458 Winchester properly loaded is a stopping cartridge. I have seen it at work, along with several others, at times with myself behind the gun, at times with others.

I am in 100% agreement that anything less than 458 caliber may not qualify, up to and including the various 416s! Especially on buffalo, hippo, elephant. Thin skinned dangerous game maybe. But even then I would rather start at 458 caliber for that sort of work.

Diameter Makes a Difference---To a point! I think and believe anything between 458 and 510 is optimum with proper bullets!

Well there we go! I guess the attacks can start now!

Michael

Michael,

No attacks from me. I agree with all you said.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Michael458,

How about we limit this to buffalo, what bullet would you use as a stopper?

Scott
OK buffalo. Today I will be shooting a 450 gr Barnes FN Solid. This assuming I had already used my 450 Swift up front. Backed by the solids. For 458 Winchester. My 458 B&M duplicates 458 Winchester, and that is what I use in it. I will be using this combination with the 458 B&M in Australia in a few weeks for those buffalo. I don't expect a need to stop charges, but might need some backups regardless. I don't stop shooting just because I shot 1 rd, shoot until the problem is solved or you cannot shoot anymore. So there you have it!

465
Thanks!

Michael

Thanks to all for the contributions & opions as well as the experiences shared. Exactly what I was looking for! This forum is the best source for info like this anywhere !

Michae458
You have summed up exactly what I was trying to get across. Thanks for reading what I wrote and putting it across in this manner.

I myself carry a 458 Lott as I believe it to be the best bang for the buck in terms of bullet diameter and recoil. It is to me the best bolt gun cartridge for reliable feeding and controllable recoil. However as BBBHunter states it is no substitute for aiming and hitting the target. It is a major factor in my decision to buy the .458 lott that is is a rifle I can afford to practice with as often as I like and not count pennies doing so. This is not possible with the bigger calibers and a major area of concern for the serious big game guide/ph

Making the 458 into a "stopper" without doubt the north fork or gs custom FN solids because they penetrate and do so in a straight line. I believe, as JPK has shown, that Johan Kaalits has achieved 96 inches of penetration in Elephant and that is nothing to sneeze at.

The zim parks figures are interesting, however they do miss one point, possibly in an effort to shift people choices, there are far more .375's being used in the big game hunting and guiding industry than any other and most of them are being carried by young guides who lack experience and money.
By far the minority are those carrying over the .50 range and they are generally going to be hunters with some experience and hunting big game. So while the 375 stats are not inspiring, perhaps they would show a different picture is they were to be viewed in relation to how many successful encounters are on record, not just those in the test group etc.

I know that the stats in SA are very negative on the .375 because of this very reason, same way as the CZ has had the most malfunctions on record, there are so many in use that the odds go up.

quote:

Making the 458 into a "stopper" without doubt the north fork or gs custom FN solids because they penetrate and do so in a straight line. I believe, as JPK has shown, that Johan Kaalits has achieved 96 inches of penetration in Elephant and that is nothing to sneeze at.

Was this on a body shot or head shot? Or maybe a combination of the two?

Thats ALOT of penetration.

My 450 grain NF truncated cone FN solid penetrated 64 inches. It had the least penetration of the three I shot and the only one recovered from elephant.

But thats alot more than the RN monolithic solids that went only 33-39 inches.

If you have any details on the bullet path Id appreciate knowing it or seeing a link to the earlier post.

Thanks, Andy

PS I felt that as long as I had ammo I could "stop" my 16 year old pregnant cow w the 450 Dakota. Each shot just totally shook it up!

465H&H wrote:

"The PH stopped it (cow elephant) with a head shot that missed the brain, it was a few inches low on the forehead. The elephant went down on its knees and as it stood back up the PH brained it..."

So, the cow was stunned, temporarily "knocked out", or experienced concussion... whatever. It seems that was the point of JPK's posts and Vlam disagreed! And then Michael458 steps in helping Vlam explain his position which basically denies the whole idea of "knockout Value", or stunning, or temporarily losing intellectual coherence ("stopping", or "knocking down"). And to top it all off, 465H&H agrees totally with Michael458 who helps Vlam explain himself, who JPK calls a moron! WOW!

What I've learned today is that even though I love the 458WM, but haven't yet shot any creature with it, I don't qualify for this argument because I don't fully understand the rules of debate and logic on AR: Being, that though you can argue and call each other nasty names, the argument doesn't mean squat because in the end everyone is going to shake hands and say "You misunderstood what I was argueing with you about because I really do totally agree with you"!

But somehow I DONT think JPK is going to say: "I misunderstood you and I totally agree with whatever you said"!

NOT to keep it going, BUT some of you guys need to rethink what you said (or wrote).

And some are afraid of getting "flamed"

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

What I've learned today is that even though I love the 458WM, but haven't yet shot any creature with it, I don't qualify for this argument because I don't fully understand the rules of debate and logic on AR: Being, that though you can argue and call each other nasty names, the argument doesn't mean squat because in the end everyone is going to shake hands and say "You misunderstood what I was argueing with you about because I really do totally agree with you"!

www.bigbores.ca

Me, I am easy, I am an asshole and consistent about it!

Michael458,

So which is the stopping bullet, the A frame or the Barnes solid? I guess I thought a stopper would only require one not several of different flavors, or am I simply missing something?

Personally, the 458 has never really impressed me much.

Here are some of the articles, not the one I was referring to though. There are however reports of 114" of penetration in this article and some comparisons to the others out there

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/faqbarrelwear.html
www.bigfivehq.com/softs.pdf

The 458 Win Mag can only shoot the 500gr bullet
to 2020 FPS, the Lott can shoot the 500gr bullet to
2355 FPS. I own the Lott thats how I know. If I were hunting Elephant I would want my Lott.
It can kill any animal in the world. I don't know if the Win Mag can.

Scott

The Barnes FN Solid.

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
The 458 Win Mag can only shoot the 500gr bullet
to 2020 FPS, the Lott can shoot the 500gr bullet to
2355 FPS. I own the Lott thats how I know. If I were hunting Elephant I would want my Lott.
It can kill any animal in the world. I don't know if the Win Mag can.

Yes the Lott's a great choice but your findings or observations are skewed concerning the 458wm and 500grain bullets, read my new post on my range findings under big bores just yesterday my 22 inch barreled 458wm with Hornady 500grain solids shot 2120 (using Oehler chrono) with a load that is two grains BELOW maximum load. Yes, even with Barnes FN's you can get 2100.
Secondly your comment, "You don't know if the win mag can kill any animal in the world" as I mentioned earlier on this thread Paul Groebler, Richard Harland and Barry Duckworth between them killed over 10,000 elephant all of them with non-leathal 458 win mags using inferior ammo (truth be known they were probably averaging 2000fps) compared to what we have today, none of them ending up like stawberry jam.

quote:

michael458: fla3006 I assume you are referring the "shock" issue to me. Don't think you quite understand exactly what I am trying to get at---not "shock" as in the physical sense of the term, as Ian I think infers, but just the mental shock of being hit with something that is causing pain, trauma or an issue--Like "Oh Shit" What just hit me? Whatever it is hurts, maybe I will do something different, you know that sort of thing!

Now crawl on out from behind that couch like a man!

Michael, not referring to you or anyone in particular. Just adding fuel to the fire. Bell said it, not me. I think his point which we all can agree upon is shot placement is of utmost importance.

Best solution . . . step up to the real stoppers, the .474, .505 and .510 calibers. There can be no meaningful debate over these calibers as stoppers compared to any of the .458 calibers.

quote:

Just adding fuel to the fire

fla3006

I think there is more than enough fuel on the fire!

I agree 100%--shot placement is not only important, but is #1 on the list! Good shot placement--proper bullet--proper caliber--that will do the stopping every time! Very Excellent.

dirklawyer

I read your post you mention and you are correct. With todays powders it is no issue at all to get 500s to over 2100 fps in 458 Winchester. I was doing that several years ago with RL 15. Depending on the bullet from 2135 fps with Woodleighs to 2175 fps with some Hornady bullets. It was no problem at all, and I measured pressures and all were under. I also took the 500 Barnes FN to 2130 fps. More than enough to accomplish the mission.

I would like to try 2230 (As I recall) but I have not done any 458 Winchester work in a long time. Will have to check it out for some of my other cartridges?

Great!

Michael

quote:

Best solution . . . step up to the real stoppers, the .474, .505 and .510 calibers. There can be no meaningful debate over these calibers as stoppers compared to any of the .458 calibers.


Mike

So you'd think. You lay out all the facts and figures and then an off-shoot group decides that on Thursdays Karamojo only shot elephants with a 22 LR, and from that:

a) there is no such thing as a stopping rifle,
b) if there were such a thing as a stopping rifle, it would definitely require 421 gr. bullets, no more no less,
c) don't try to stop anything on Tuesdays or Wednesdays,
d) shot placement is the only thing that counts, except on Fridays and Sundays,
e) it all depends on the phase of the moon, or maybe not.
f) the 500's suck.

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
The 458 Win Mag can only shoot the 500gr bullet
to 2020 FPS, the Lott can shoot the 500gr bullet to
2355 FPS. I own the Lott thats how I know. If I were hunting Elephant I would want my Lott.
It can kill any animal in the world. I don't know if the Win Mag can.

There are plenty here that will disagree with 2020fps as the limit for the 458 win mag, I have seen as high as 2250 fps, with my 22" barrel I usually see 2183 fps.

Not sure why you are seeing a discrepancy, but perhaps shooting a 458 win in a lott chamber is not the same as shooting a 458 win in a 458 win chamber.

John

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Best solution . . . step up to the real stoppers, the .474, .505 and .510 calibers. There can be no meaningful debate over these calibers as stoppers compared to any of the .458 calibers.

If you want to end debate, I prefer the 30 mm chain gun, everything else is a baby gun! M789 HEDP projectiles will penetrate two elephants end to end, after exploding the first ones head.

Back to the original question, 120 something posts ago, the 458 is a fine performer with modern ammo using premium projectiles on dangerous game. Are there better, sure, but at a cost.

John

quote:

If you want to end debate, I prefer the 30 mm chain gun, everything else is a baby gun! M789 HEDP projectiles will penetrate two elephants end to end, after exploding the first ones head.

Yea, but can you carry it 20 miles a day?

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:

quote:

If you want to end debate, I prefer the 30 mm chain gun, everything else is a baby gun! M789 HEDP projectiles will penetrate two elephants end to end, after exploding the first ones head.

Yea, but can you carry it 20 miles a day?

Andy

Heck no, my gun bearer is an apache ah64, I just have to carry a laser designator.

John

Everyone likes to talk about hitting them right - and its important. But it is not always going to happen and may not even be possible because of position, yours or the elephants, brush, any number of reasons.

If braining an ele, hitting them in the right place, was so damned easy, the debate would be about carrying 30-06's with 220gr solids or 308's with 180gr solids, or maybe 7.62x39's with 123gr spitzer solids...

And every one of the old ivory hunter would have followed Bell's path, ditched the expensive and hard to feed big bore doubles and used relatively cheap 6.5 or 7mm or 303 or 30-06's...

But they didn't, and PH's today, even Viam who doesn't believe in stopping rifles, carry, for the most part, rifles which produce 5000lbs/ft of energy or more and shoot 400 or 500gr bullets doing it. Why? Why bother with the heavier rifle? Why bother with the expensive ammo, why bother with the recoil? Because a .458" rifle with ~5000lbs/ft of energy is a stopping rifle (Will and others would include the 416's.) with more than a century of proven history, which can't be ignored, explained away, misinterpreted, or re-written.

And to those who say the client doesn't need a stopping rifle, I ask for nominations for perfect PH's. Which PH, or any human you know, is perfect and has never erred or botched anything, especially a shot? Answer? None, because no one is perfect and we all err. Why bet your life on an imperfect being, no matter how experienced or good? He has a bad day,... you die... How stupid.

JPK

BTW, Viam, I'd bet $20 that your SA loaded Lott doesn't push 500gr Woodleighs more than 1% faster than my US loaded 458wm (and I'm 2grs under max load and have had my loads pressure tested and they are well under max pressure.) 1% = 21.45fps.

Even the public data for the 3" Express reflects a desire to more readily achieve 2150fps with SomChem powders.

BTW, how many eles have you shot?

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
465H&H wrote:

"The PH stopped it (cow elephant) with a head shot that missed the brain, it was a few inches low on the forehead. The elephant went down on its knees and as it stood back up the PH brained it..."

So, the cow was stunned, temporarily "knocked out", or experienced concussion... whatever. It seems that was the point of JPK's posts and Vlam disagreed! And then Michael458 steps in helping Vlam explain his position which basically denies the whole idea of "knockout Value", or stunning, or temporarily losing intellectual coherence ("stopping", or "knocking down"). And to top it all off, 465H&H agrees totally with Michael458 who helps Vlam explain himself, who JPK calls a moron! WOW!

What I've learned today is that even though I love the 458WM, but haven't yet shot any creature with it, I don't qualify for this argument because I don't fully understand the rules of debate and logic on AR: Being, that though you can argue and call each other nasty names, the argument doesn't mean squat because in the end everyone is going to shake hands and say "You misunderstood what I was argueing with you about because I really do totally agree with you"!

But somehow I DONT think JPK is going to say: "I misunderstood you and I totally agree with whatever you said"!

NOT to keep it going, BUT some of you guys need to rethink what you said (or wrote).

And some are afraid of getting "flamed"

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

458 Only,

When I said I agreed with Michael 458, I believe he was saying that you can't knock an elephant down unless you hit or stun the CNS. To kill, knock down, knock out or turn an charging elephant you have to do one of those things. I did say though that I thought you could stop an elephant by breaking or severly damaging a major leg bone. Because they can't walk or run on three legs. I also don't believe that you can knock an elephant down with chest shot that doesn't hit or stun the CNS, at least with any caliber that you and your tracker can carry together.

465H&H

A powerful .458WM factory load compares favorably with some .458 Lott loads. The 420gr Impala RNFP solid at 2380fps is as good an elephant stopper as one could think of.
See www.impalabullets.at. You'll find the DG cartriges when browsing through their online catalog.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
465H&H wrote:

"The PH stopped it (cow elephant) with a head shot that missed the brain, it was a few inches low on the forehead. The elephant went down on its knees and as it stood back up the PH brained it..."

So, the cow was stunned, temporarily "knocked out", or experienced concussion... whatever. It seems that was the point of JPK's posts and Vlam disagreed! And then Michael458 steps in helping Vlam explain his position which basically denies the whole idea of "knockout Value", or stunning, or temporarily losing intellectual coherence ("stopping", or "knocking down"). And to top it all off, 465H&H agrees totally with Michael458 who helps Vlam explain himself, who JPK calls a moron! WOW!

What I've learned today is that even though I love the 458WM, but haven't yet shot any creature with it, I don't qualify for this argument because I don't fully understand the rules of debate and logic on AR: Being, that though you can argue and call each other nasty names, the argument doesn't mean squat because in the end everyone is going to shake hands and say "You misunderstood what I was argueing with you about because I really do totally agree with you"!

But somehow I DONT think JPK is going to say: "I misunderstood you and I totally agree with whatever you said"!

NOT to keep it going, BUT some of you guys need to rethink what you said (or wrote).

And some are afraid of getting "flamed"

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

458 Only,

When I said I agreed with Michael 458, I believe he was saying that you can't knock an elephant down unless you hit or stun the CNS. To kill, knock down, knock out or turn an charging elephant you have to do one of those things. I did say though that I thought you could stop an elephant by breaking or severly damaging a major leg bone. Because they can't walk or run on three legs. I also don't believe that you can knock an elephant down with chest shot that doesn't hit or stun the CNS, at least with any caliber that you and your tracker can carry together.

465H&H

Thanks 465H&H for explaining...

My point is that I don't believe Michael458's "helping" Vlam really was helpful (though he admitted he was not absolutely sure of where Vlam was coming from), in that Michael used the term "rethink" at least twice in reference to an ele that was not "brained" but the bullet was close enough to cause the ele to "rethink" matters and decide to get out of there... or similar concepts. That denies the concept of the ele temporarily losing consciousness when "it went to it's knees". When something is knocked out, it loses the intellectual capacity to "rethink" anything, at least for several seconds. In that, I agree with JPK. And, apparently with Taylor also, since he designed the KO formula. The idea being that an ele could be temporarily "KO'd" if the bullet was a solid from a Big Bore with enough velocity and weight even though it missed the brain.

Many years ago, I was involved in a motorcycle accident involving an auto. I was passing this car when the driver (who was preoccupied with a passenger) quickly decided he was missing the driveway he intended to turn into. He turned left immediately in front of me. I had no place to go but into his left rear fender and taillight. Everything was in slow motion: to this day I remember the details, including my thoughts and reactions... that is up to about three feet from impact. The next thing I recall was picking myself up off the pavement 30 feet the other side of the auto and trying to focus on why my bike was on it's side with the oil running out of it. I was OK but the bike wasn't. To this day, 26 years later, I don't recall anything of what happened between 3 feet of hitting and 30 feet on the other side! My son and a friend on their bikes filled in the blanks.

My point is: I don't believe that an ele that is temporarily stunned, or concussed, to the extent of going to it's knees, when the brain is not hit directly, is going to "rethink" or evaluate the situation at the moment of bullet impact to make a decision to get out of harms way... which is exactly the point of Vlam's posts... in which he BLATENTLY ASSERTS THAT ANYTHING SHORT OF A DIRECT HIT TO THE BRAIN MAY WELL GET YOU KILLED, and therefore you are better served with Bell's type cartridges UNLESS you hit the brain... a close miss will get you killed or seriously injured!

Then he's happy that Michael explains him...

I find such logic to be NONSENSE as it is filled with contradictions and doesn't agree with historical evidence or medical trauma experience... unless when an elephant regains consciousness it is totally focused and has immediate recall of all that's happened and intelligently decides on it's next move!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

458 Only,

I think we have to be careful on trying to describe how an elephant or any other animal thinks. Since we can't crawl into their heads we can only guess based on how we do it since it is really our only reference.

Elephants have been turned by head hits and changed from a charge mode to an escape mode. That we can say how or if they consciously thought about it is a guess. It seems to me that there are several outcomes of an elephant charge going from bad to perfect. The worst is if the elephant gets to someone and kills or maims them, then the bullets strike causes the elephant to change his charge to running away, then there is the elephant is hit and is knocked down but quickly gets up and bugs out. This is better than the last because it gives you more time for a follow up shot. The fourth is the elephant is knocked down but not out although it is unable to get up. This one is easy to finish off. The last is the elephant is killed by the shot, the best outcome.

465H&H

Jesus Christ--I used the term "RETHINK" very simply as a figure of speech!
Not that I had any concept of what %*$& elephant is thinking for gods sake!

First NOT ALL ELEPHANTS ARE CREATED EQUAL. Do we understand that? If you shoot 10 &%^$&** elephants you very well may get 10 different reactions to being shot! Some will fall over dead, some will look like they have been stunned, some may roll over the left, some over to the right, some sit on their ass, some run away, who knows! Simple concept--Not all Elephants are Created Equal. If not killed out right by a direct hit to the CNS then they just might turn away, for god knows what reason, and STOP ANY ACTION TO CREATE MALICE TOWARDS THE SHOOTER. Now for all I know this elephant may very well be thinking "Damn, I just got hit with a 500 gr Solid from a 458 Winchester at 2150 fps, this smarts a bit, I am going to go somewhere else!" Maybe he just "RECONSIDERED" his situation! There, Reconsidered, maybe that is a better term that most all will be capable of comprehension!

I have seen elephants "turned" away and NOT "knocked out" with 458 Winchester. Why did he turn? Because it hurt and he decided it was better to be somewhere else! I assume others have seen elephants turned away and not brained or knocked out?


"RETHINK" FIGURE OF SPEECH--That is all! Do not make more of it than it is!

Helping Ian? Maybe I had enough intellectual capacity to understand what he was talking about and what he was trying to get across-I don't know. I still will not swear to it 100%, but what I believe he is saying is that unlike the MOVIES---OK we all remember Dirty Harry blowing away the bad guys, hitting them with the 44 Magnum and blowing them across the room. Remember That??? What I think Ian was getting at is that a 500 gr bullet will not knock a 10000 + lb animal back across the room. Ok before anyone takes that wrong--"across the room" is a figure of speech! Of course what would an elephant be doing in a room? The jest of the matter should be understood, I would think?

Nonsense? Contradictions? I beg to differ! I think more of problem with comprehension of what was said is the problem.

I am only speaking for what I said and nothing more.

How to stop an elephant?

My opinion we start at 458 caliber--500 gr solids at 2100-2150 fps and go from there.

STOP? Stopping? Define? In our case "to prevent something (Elephant) from performing a specified action! (for those with comprehension issues) To Prevent an Elephant from stomping the shit out of you!

1. CNS Direct hit! Brain shot elephant-falls dead right there!

2. Bullet passing close enough to the CNS to knock said elephant out cold, shooter then follows up immediately if not sooner.

3. Bullet hitting head of elephant, but not direct brain hit, not close enough or not effective in knocking said elephant out--elephant turns away from shooter to go do something else (whatever elephants do after being shot in the head-like run away or what have you) Or maybe they "RETHINK" OR RECONSIDER THE ISSUE and leave well enough alone??? At any rate the head shot elephant has turned away, no longer posing a danger to the shooter or shooters party, therefore being stopped or "Prevented from stomping the crap out of said shooter or shooters party".

4. Breaking legs, bones, shot to the rear spine or any shot that turns, kills, breaks, stops elephant from doing harm to shooter or shooters party.

Does this clarify my position? Is there an issue with "figure of speech"?

Now somehow the question was never "Is the 458 Winchester a stopping cartridge for ELephant"

"""Who shoots 458 WM and how did it perform for you. Thinking of getting a stopping rifle"""What loads do yo shoot for DG & what MV"""

Well of course Elephant would be included in this query. However, elephant is not the end all of dangerous game now is it!

Our guy asks specifically about DG--458 Winchester--Load--MV. Now we must define DG (Dangerous Game)

My Opinion is as follows;

Leopard--lion--bears thin skinned species.

Hippo--buffalo--elephant thick skinned species.

These are our common "come to mind" dangerous game animals. Not to say that other game cannot be dangerous as it certainly can be. I was charged once by a Roan. Another time by a blesbok of all things-What a hoot that was! Approaching downed oryx can be downright dangerous! So my short list above is not the end all of everything that possibly could be listed. So don't come back and say this or that or that I must "RETHINK" the issue, or that I mentioned this or that 3 times and I must have surely meant this or that!

Loads I would use in 458 Winchester for Leopard!
There could be several, but I think the 400 gr Woodleigh at 2200 plus or minus fps would be extremely good in this case. It transfers tremendous energy and destruction of tissue on a thin target such as leopard. I am not talking about "Kinetic Energy" either--throw that number out, it is meaningless. KE never killed anything on this planet---bullets kill things! There could be several other good bullets that would do great, most of the 300 gr bullets designed for 45/70 if run at 2100-2200 fps would do great too. But for my money, 400 Woodleigh at 2200 fps!

Loads I would use for Lion and Bears in 458 Winchester
400 gr Swift A Frame 70/RL 7 giving 2325 fps in 22 inches and 2375 fps + in 24 inch guns. Hammers lions to the dirt! Another bullet I would consider is a 350 gr Barnes TSX. Excellent bullet, more than enough penetration. I am sure there are others, but this is what I used.

Loads I would use for Buffalo of all species in 458 Winchester
450 gr Swift A frame at 2200-2250 fps backed up by 450 gr Barnes FN Solids at same velocity. 500 gr Woodleigh SP at 2150 fps backed by 450 gr Barnes FN Solids at 2200-2250 fps. These are my choices--again I am sure that there are other suitable choices, these are mine.

Loads I would use in 458 Winchester for Hippo--Elephant
I don't shoot hippo in the water. Brain shots on hippo can be done with most anything. I have no problem with anyone that shoots hippo in the water this way, and don't care, got no beef with it. It's just not for me is all. Therefore requiring for myself a bullet capable of breaking bone and driving thru body fat and what have you. So for hippo and elephant it's nothing but good solids. I would use a 450 Barnes FN Solid at 2200-2250 fps. I am sure another type FN solid will be fine, this is what I would choose.

Now here is the problem with everything I have just said above! For me at least, I hardly ever go on a one animal hunt in Africa! There could be nearly anything on quota or a chance at any or several of the above listed DG. What to do? Sometimes there is little one can do. For instance it is not a big deal to get a 450 Swift A and a 450 Barnes FN Solid to hit the same POI at 50 yds. It is quite another challenge to get a lighter, say 400 gr bullet to hit close to the same POI as the 450s! Sometimes in some rifles one can make it work, but it is time consuming, and sometimes not possible. Lot's of trail and error! So like many things in life you compromise a bit. For instance you know buffalo and possible elephant are on quota! Load up the 450s and you are set for first shot on buffalo (450 Swift) backed by 450 Solids on the buff. Well the 450 Solids will be fine for your possible elephant too! But what if I run across a lion? The 450 Swift will certainly handle the lion well too, and for that matter leopard! So with those two bullets you can do what you need to do. If your rifle likes some other loads and shoots close to POI at 50 then that is bonus!

Most of the time bear hunts are bear hunts and you can go with a single purpose in mind that will work if needed on moose or something else just as well. But these days I am liking my solids backing things up for most everything bear size, moose size and eland size too!

Well I am quite sure that half everything I have said will be misunderstood, picked apart because of some phrase, or misunderstood in some way! Well, whata ya gonna do, either you get it or you don't!

Enough already Please

Michael

quote:

Well of course Elephant would be included in this query. However, elephant is not the end all of dangerous game now is it!

Damn, you lost me there! Elephants are indeed the end all of dangerous game!

On a more serious note, the elephant in the photos I posted was not knocked out, but she was stopped. Another bull I had to shoot was also not knocked out, but was stopped.

Anticipating comentary from those less experienced, I have knocked out several elephants as well, but those elephants were being hunted by us, not vice versa. A close miss on a brain shot will often result in a knocked out cow, less frequent for a bull.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:

Your quote above is still not correct. I know what you mean when you say stopping rifle, but it has been conclusively proven that there is no such thing as a stopping rifle. A stopping shot there most certainly is but it is completely unrelated to the rifle, bullet diameter, weight or velocity. It has to do solely with the placement. So in short to state that buying a .458 Lott/WM puts you in a better situation when facing a charging beast is a fallacy, very often it puts you in a worse position because your complacency, based largely on a false sense of security granted by your " stopper " is going to get you killed when you miss the brain.

Good hunting
Ian

Am I missing something? I don't think so!

Am I misinterpreting or misunderstanding? I don't think so either!

The above quote denies ANY advantage of a .458WM or Lott over medium or small bores in hunting elephant in particular, and DG in general, if you miss the CNS by even a few inches. Yet, 465H&H and JPK gave clear examples of knockdowns and "stopping" elephants by near misses of the brain. No one, including Michael, seems to disagree with that except Vlam. Please don't bore me with explanations that Vlam was ONLY argueing the point that NO cartridge/rifle combo is capable of picking up an ele and giving it a body slam like in a wrestling match. It is CLEARLY EVIDENT that he was argueing that a 500gr from a 458 Whatever that missed the brain by even a few inches was no more effective than a 300 Win Mag that missed by the same amount.

The only point I was referring to was 465H&H's account of the ele that was temporarily "stunned", knocked unconscious, whatever, when the bullet missed by a few inches giving enough time for a quick follow-up... referring to that incident ONLY in making comments about unconscious reactions. In JPK's 2 incidents, there was an obvious reaction to trauma, danger, pain, whatever... but I doubt it was reasoned. It was instinctive and immediate based on biological and physiological programming.

It was a fight or flight reaction. We see it all the time in dealing with bears.

Have a good day everyone...

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Michael,

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. But after spending most of my adult working life as a zoologist/wildlife biologist trying to explain why animals do things to civilians, I automatically comment on this issue when any one says an animal thinks in a human terms.

We do know that animals react to certain stimuli whether it is am positive or negative experience. With elephant we can say that an elephants did this or that when hit by a bullet but other than knowing that the elephant is responding to a negative stimulus, how the brain functions to transmit that experience we can only guess.

I initially agreed that you were right in interpreting what Viam was trying to get across but after rereading 458 Only's quote from Viam's, as follows.

Originally posted by Viam:

Your quote above is still not correct. I know what you mean when you say stopping rifle, but it has been conclusively proven that there is no such thing as a stopping rifle. A stopping shot there most certainly is but it is completely unrelated to the rifle, bullet diameter, weight or velocity. It has to do solely with the placement. So in short to state that buying a .458 Lott/WM puts you in a better situation when facing a charging beast is a fallacy, very often it puts you in a worse position because your complacency, based largely on a false sense of security granted by your " stopper " is going to get you killed when you miss the brain.

Good hunting
Ian

I have to back up on that position as I think we were both wrong on what Viam was trying to get across.

My reading of Viam is that he might have a fair amount of experience with elephant mock charges but that experience may be very narrow and mainly from Game Park elephants which don't behave the same as elephants that are harassed by hunters and traditional farmers in open hunting areas. I may be wrong here but that is the impression I get from him.

465H&H

Hey, Viam is full of s--t, that is clear.

Don't forget, he is repeating what the "experts" told him. That is according to him..., "I base what I have said on the findings of the people who have shot thousands of Elephants {Obviously forgot to read Ron Thomson's books or Richard Harland's,}" and, "These are statistics and information gathered by an elite bunch of field guides in the Kruger park. Many of them with doctorates."

Don't forget that he is also using a 458 Lott. Why? Because the same experts who told him that their is no such thing as a stopping rifle, and that elephants cannot be stopped except with a CNS hit also told him that the Lott was the cat's meow for stopping elephants.

Glaring contradiction, eh?

And don'cha ya know that according to Viam and those experts, game viewing guides - the undisclosed experts I suppose - have it much harder stopping elephants than the rest of us. Why? They are elephants, like elephants everywhere.

Love this classic, "The 45-70 is as much of a stopper as the .458 express"

And bullets can't move elephants - well, that is partially true, but the impact sure can move their heads, sometimes more than their heads.

Viam also left unanswered: How many elephants have you had to stop? How many elephants have you shot? What velocity does your 458 Lott run loaded with SomChem powder?

He sounds to me to be a boy wannabe playing make believe. And with the indignent insistance that comes with inexperience.

EDIT: I went to the website linked under Viam's signiture and there is a photo of him. Jeez he looks young. Best guess is 20. He is from SA, so elephant experience is nessecarily limited, unless he hunts elsewhere too, which seems highly unlikely.

Here is his quote, which flys in the face of his spouting: "I myself carry a 458 Lott as I believe it to be the best bang for the buck in terms of bullet diameter and recoil." (Interestingly missing is velocity, or a stand-in, like energy, the only possible difference between the Lott and the WM.)

As I mentioned, loaded with SomChem he might be turning US powder 458wm velocity.

ADD'L EDIT: 465H&H, I am sure that you have elephant hunted widely enough to notice the different general dispositions of different elephant populations. For example, in the SAVE, all of the elephants are aggressive and phycho, just some worse than others. Chete, they seem rather mild mannered; Omay too, but with exceptions; Nyakasanga, aggressive, but not like the SAVE; Chewore, not too aggressive...

I have never been to a park in Africa, are the eles very different from hunted eles?

JPK

JPK,

I believe that Park elephants behave somewhat differently than elephants in hunted areas. In parks they become use to people walking up on them since all the people do is take their pictures. The walk into camps and beg food from people. people are typically not a threat to them. Park guides get to know individual elephants from encountering them on an almost daily basis. They learn what they can and can not do with an individual animal. Which ones have a short temper and are to be avoided and which one they can get to put on a show for the paying guests cameras by mock charging. One video of Ivan stopping a mock charge by waving his rifle in the air was just such an encounter. I doubt Ivan would let an elephant in a hunting area get that close. But I could be wrong about that as I have never hunted with him.

Elephants in communal areas or hunting concessions have entirely different experiences with humans. They learn to fear humans because at some time some member of their herd was killed by one. Or maybe they have grown tired of the black skinned humans always chasing them out of the delicious food they found in the crop fields. They learn that if they chase them they will run away and then they can eat in peace.

465H&H

Answer God is trying to provide is AIDs. Less humans, more animal habitat, more elephants. No aide to Africa. Better hunting.
Rude, but true.

JPK

My statement was specifically to this point.
No bullet from a shoulder fired weapon can physically stop a moving elephant. Much like the shooting of a box full of sand. All of the energy is expended without the box moving an inch.

I did not question the use of the 458 WM as an elephant cartridge at all, it is a fine elephant gun and always has been. You may well be right about the WM being better with US powders, however this was never in question. I personally chose the Lott because it can launch the 300-315 gr bullets at close to 375 trajectories and as such is a real all in one gun.

The reason I made my statement was to help people understand that it is not the momentum of the bullet acting on the momentum of the elephant that caused the elephant to stop, but rather the reaction caused by the bullet on the elephants senses that caused it to stop. The surest reaction you would want to achieve is an elephant folding up and going straight down after a direct hit to the CNS. However the other reactions may be dropping down, freezing in its tracks, spinning around or in many casses just coming straight on. There is no doubt that the only sure reaction is the one involving the CNS short of that you are really just playing Russian roulette.

With regards to elephants, I do not dispute that different areas produce different dispositions. But in contrary to what has been written it is often the habituated animals that are most dangerous as their flight response is severely decreased leaving the fight response as the first choice. With regards to the comments about putting on a show for clients this is bullshit and should be frowned upon. All encounters that I have had with dangerous game charging have been in training and have never put anyone at risk. The only charges I have faced whilst in the presence of clients were due to the animals having gone unnoticed until we had entered their comfort zone and then triggered a response.

JPK, I see that you are obviously out on a smeer campaign, but as your judgment is clouded I will tell you exactly who I am. I have nothing to hide least of all from a guy who thinks he can bully people into agreeing with him.
My name is Ian Blakeway, I am 27 years old and have been involved in the wildlife and tourism industry since the age of 17 when I started doing game capture work in my holidays. My experience is largely on the field guide side of said industry and has been privileged enough to work with people who have a depth of knowledge and experience that goes way beyond shooting a few elephant. my job is to take people into wildlife sightings and out again safely, often getting them much closer that the average hunter without the animal knowing we are even there. You see I have respect for these creatures and am not there merely to see how many I can kill in as few days as possible. I have only ever seen two elephant shot, both were brain shots.
I have worked hard all of my life to ensure that I can spend as much time in the presence of these animals as possible. Becoming a professional hunter has been a recent achievement and something I look forward to and have finally achieved. You judge me as you want but I know what I am capable of and relish the opportunity to take people out to hunt and experience the wonders of nature. I am pretty damn sure I don't measure up to your standards, nor do I try to, but who gives a hoot. You are after all the last great white hunter and a truly unique one in that you are the first to complete this fete in tights. Could you please send me the name of the outfitter you bought them from, I want a pair to go with my camo tutu.

I have stopped quite a few elephants, however not once with a bullet. I would love to be in a position to hunt them but simply cant afford to.
That said I have faced many more charges than you if you think that one in your picture was a charge. I have stood before charging lions and allowed them to come to a halt mere feet from where we stood, all of which I have done in preparation to defend my self or my clients, not so i could come and beat my chest on a forum. You may or may not see but the mind is far mightier than the fist and understating the animals you pursue is a far greater tool than the size of the stick you carry. Obviously this demotes me to the rank of sub male in the JPK chest beaters club, but then again who gives a damn, it is only JPK after all that gets his kicks out of being rude and abusive on a public forum. Does it really make you feel bigger or better about yourself to do this. If yes I am glad to have helped out, if not may I suggest you take the tights off, I know that would surely put me in a bad mood too.

I will be hunting hippo on dry land in 2011, I invite you to come along and maybe get to know me. I am actually quite nice when given a chance and thrive on giving people the opportunity to share in nature the way I love to. If you take the time to read a bit more on my website you will see that I don't hunt for self gratification or money, but rather to give something back to nature and ensure that we have more ethical hunters in Africa each year. I dare say my rates will reflect exactly that and I think its safe to say that if you want to know where a mans heart really lies then see where he puts his money.

Anyway, thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify a few points and I hope we can continue the discussion in a fashion befitting gentleman hunters.
I appologise to you and any others I may have offended, but I do not change my views on these points.
Good hunting
Ian

Give it up, dude. You are just digging yourself in deeper and deeper. And as you might have noticed, this only invites JPK to decend upon you again with a vengeance.

I think I hear the wine of INCOMMING!!!

For Will:

Viam,

I am not smearing you, you are doing that yourself, and well.

You have niether hunted elephant nor shot one, you have ceratainly not stopped a charge. You have seen but two elephants shot. You are a newly minted SA PH, nothing there there.

But worse, you think you are an expert.

If you really stopped an elephant charge without shooting the elephant, it wasn't a charge, it was a mock charge.

Ditto with every other creature that stops on its own. They are bluffing, that is why they stopped. If they were charging, they wouldn't have stopped on their own. This is self evident.

Relying on 465H&H's explanations of the difference between Park elephants and hunted elephants, had you any time hunting elephants, I believe you would have discovered that your Lott is a stopping rifle.

You change your tune now, but there is no escaping these utterly useless and clueless, yet strident pronouncements:

"I know what you mean when you say stopping rifle, but it has been conclusively proven that there is no such thing as a stopping rifle. A stopping shot there most certainly is but it is completely unrelated to the rifle, bullet diameter, weight or velocity."

"The 45-70 is as much of a stopper as the .458 express"

Your quotes loudly announce your inexperience. So does your indignant insistence.

Moreover, your rifle choice, a good one actually, utterly contradicts your erroneous pontification.

I do not know what you think is the range "average hunters" approach elephants, but more than a handful of elephant I have killed have been within fifteen yards, a several ten or eleven and two at seven. I cannot count the number of approaches to this range that were terminated without the elephants or elephants knowing anything was up. Wrong elephant, whatever, good fun.

Its late here, I need to be up early. If I feel like it in the morning I will continue.

One thing to take to heart though, and that is you don't know s--t about elephants, or hunting them or stopping them. You don't even know what a charge is.

JPK

JPK:

Your better then this. He's a young kid,give him a break. Young kids know everything, you know that. Just ask any 8th grader...