quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
why did Jack Lott invent the 458 Lott?

Because at that time, WM ammo would not achieve the advertised 2100fps with 500gr bullets. With todays powders, this is easy to accomplish. So, no need for the Lott nowadays

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
JPK
What you have said is bull
There is no physical way in which a bullet weighing even up to 2000gr can have any physical ability to physically turn or stop an elephant. Any DG PH will tell you, just ask Ganyana if any rifle can actually "STOP" an elephant. Hell ask Ivan Carter or any of the others too. The recent test with the 700 Nitro showed just that on Buff. There is no rifle that can stop an elephant or any other animal in the big 5 except by hitting in or near the CNS and causing it to change its intended course through its own will or to shut down completely and crash to a halt.
Accurate shot placement is the only way to ensure your ass stays in tact, no rifle big or small can displace an animal physically, if you think you can shoot your way out of it you are wrong, hit the CNS or close enough to disrupt or stun it or you will certainly come out on the wrong end of the equation.

Each to his own, but please don't spread false information, it was wrong 100 years ago and it is wrong today. Some poor schmuck could get himself killed,
Good hunting
Ian

Hey moron, take a look at the photo below. The photo captures a 500gr solid at 2145fps or a 450gr flat nose solid at 2220fps from my 458wm STOPPING an elephant mid stride in full cahrge at seven yards. The friggin' elephant ears are inside out it stopped so suddenly.



I shot too low and missed the brain by at least six inches! I still stopped the elephant!

Now explain that there is no such thing as a stopping rifle and how there is no way a bullet can influence an elephant without a CNS strike and how that strike might as well be from a light rifle. Moron.

JPK

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
why did Jack Lott invent the 458 Lott?

Because at that time, WM ammo would not achieve the advertised 2100fps with 500gr bullets. With todays powders, this is easy to accomplish. So, no need for the Lott nowadays

And with the larger lott case, and the same reloading tricks/techniques, what happens?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Vlam,

You poor devil, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

Will,

You alright? You have mellowed so much I am worried.

JPK

Nice shot JPK, and great elephant...

What did you do to piss the ele off.???

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Nice shot JPK, and great elephant...

What did you do to piss the ele off.???

Nothing. It was in the Save Conservancy where the elephants are universally ornery and bad tempered. We retreated as far as we could as the herd passed by in single file. This one came from 25yds as soon as she saw us.

I will find and then post a link to a hunt report I posted on that 2006 hunt. there is a whole serries of charge and follow up photos and a more detailed description of the event.

Here is the link: http://forums.accuratereloadin...=140103755#140103755

JPK

Vlam wrote, "So in short to state that buying a .458 Lott/WM puts you in a better situation when facing a charging beast is a fallacy, very often it puts you in a worse position because your complacency, based largely on a false sense of security granted by your " stopper " is going to get you killed when you miss the brain."

I will assure you, Vlam, that in my limited experience, of all the emotions felt when shooting at dangerous game, complacency is not one of them.

JPK there really is no need to go to war and start name calling over a difference in opinion.
Second, that is not 7 yards and that elephant was not even close to a flat out charge, so you shot it unnecessarily. I know you are going to argue the point, but I know I have faced more Elephant charges than you and I know when an Elephant is serious. This also brings into question the stopping statement. I would say that as this elephant was not committed to killing you; that you most likely just gave her a good enough reason with the noise and the shock to her head to do what she wanted to , STOP. When an elephant wants to kill you it puts its head down and comes straight at you with intent, it would not have gone round the tree but come straight at you from the edge of the picture, at which point your missed brain shot would have been fatal, to you. As for "the friggin elephants ears", the reason they folded forward is because she was flapping them about in a mock charge trying to frighten you off before she had to kill you.
I now know why you believe you have stopped her, because it would seem that both of your elephant were not actually charging in the first place.
Good hunting
Ian



Indy
Not complacency at the moment of the shot, but complacency in not having prepared properly and not knowing exactly where the brain lies. Complacency or false bravado when getting into the situation that initiated the charge.
Good hunting
Ian

Ill say JPK is correct and that jumbo does look to be about 21 feet away so that would be 7 yards slick and another thing I hope you dont speak to your clients the way you do fourm members

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
Ill say JPK is correct and that jumbo does look to be about 21 feet away so that would be 7 yards slick and another thing I hope you dont speak to your clients the way you do fourm members

Check out his link, he does a pretty good job describing the events. 7 yds looked like the finish of a 7 shot string between two people before the elephant disappeared into the bushes.

John

Express Rifles

So I take it you would not like it if the truth were to be told to you. In what way have I spoken badly to JPK. He has called me a "moron" and said my post was "bull". I have been pretty straight up, please show me any way in which I was rude and I will gladly apologize. I call a spade a spade and make no excuses for my manner. I also don't kiss arse and as such the clients that come to me are the kind that are in it for the quality of the experience and to share in nature with me.

You see, I don't get up close to DG for fun, I do it for a living, (with the intention of getting people close to wildlife without having to shoot them) Shooting an elephant in a game reserve whilst on trail is a major no no. Because of that you are required to face dozens of charging elephant without shooting any of them before they let you out with tourists. Very often at ranges where the elephant is mere feet from you; and that is why I know what I am talking about. Same goes for lion, try standing at 5 feet from a roaring male and then tell me that you cant scare a lion off when its not wounded.

That elephant could have been 7 yards or 7 cm, it makes no difference. The elephant was trying to communicate to the hunters through its show of body (in much the same way that Ivans Rifle in the air has the opposite effect, you can also shout and wave your arms if the situation allows). That is not to say that she would not have committed, no sir. But at that moment it would appear that she was indeed just kicking up dust. Either way the point was not to dispute the mans hunt.

I have read the hunting report and still stick with what I said, shooting 9 elephants in 30 days takes some work and you can be damn sure they would not have been too fussed over whether the charge was a mock or actual charge.

If you want some good examples captured on film of when Elephants are committed or not then go and take a look at Ivan Carter with Elephant. That man knows elephant behavior and is a successful photographic guide as well as PH. YOu don't do that shuffle at 2 feet from a big bull without knowing exactly what is going on in his head.

Either way I think that the hunt would have been a great experience and you had an awesome time, hell I would love to have the money to go and hunt for 30 days and take 9 elephants.

Anyway, I think that further conversation will just be beating a dead horse, I agree to disagree and if you wish to go into more detail then please feel free to e-mail me or send me a PM.
Good hunting
Ian

So in other words a 458 Win mag will go along great with the 243 Win I take to deer camp?

quote:

Originally posted by makeminestainless:
So in other words a 458 Win mag will go along great with the 243 Win I take to deer camp?

Only if you use Hornady DGS bullets loaded at 2150 f.p.s! No, North Forks.... well, maybe Barnes... Anyway, that .243 is a stopper on charging whitetails, that is, if you know when they are really charging instead of just using body language. And remember that you can stop most charges by cancelling your credit card.

Hey, lighten up guys.

Hey, In 20 days or so, I'll be 20 yards or so from an elephant. I'll have a .458 Win Mag with me. I will scroll down this thread (in my mind) before I shoot.

Hey moron,

If you read my report than you would know that the elephant was targetting either the camera man or a tracker, about two steps and four steps to my right respectively. Or, in other words, at the end of that path to the right in the photo.

Furthermore, she was at top speed when I shot, not standing about waving her ears, and she was at top speed when a warning shot over her haed was made. So much for noise turning her, so much for a mock charge or a display.

Here is the serries, taken with the camera as fast as the shutter would cycle - Nikon D5, IIRC. The distance to where she started was 25yds, to where her footprints were when I stopped her was indeed seven yards from my own footprints, closer to where the tracker and cameraman were standing. She was at pace from the start and the photos show that, you can see the trail of dust behind her in each frame.

The first photo is at about 20yds, the furthest "clear" ground, where she started and where the dust starts, is 25yds or so.



The warning shot was fired over her head about here. The furthest tree, to her right was about nine yards. The PH, Richard Tabor, gave me the word to shoot her. Rich is a young but very experienced PH, with a ton of elephant experienced, was Roger Whittall's appy and was trained by Magara, Roger's life long tracker and a PH himself. Roger didn't blink an eye when we rolled up to his home on Humani and informed him we had to shoot one of the Save's, and his, elephants.

Note the focus of the visible eye, it is on the tracker, I believe. He was directly in front of her.












She didn't stop on her own, never slowed down and never demonstrated, as I have seen a hundred times. Note that there is no dust about her front in the photo which captures the shot, All of the dust is behind her, because she was coming the whole time, not demonstrating.

BTW, how many elephants have you had to kill. And have you ever been in the Save and experienced those elephants?

For others interested in the double vs bolt speed and reloading issue, I got off four round from my double, Rich four as well, if you count the warning shot. My rifle has ejectors, his extractors.

Another thing, the impact of the bullet has moved the head considerably on a bunch of the elephants that I have shot, some perfect brain shots, some not so perfect. As much as 45 degrees of displacement. Only absolutely square straight on shots don't produce displacement. And I don't see it on side brain shots because of the angle, but I'm sure its there as well.

JPK

Spectacular series of photos, JPK!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Spectacular series of photos, JPK!

AGREED,GREAT PHOTOS Makes me long for Africa

Judge,Have a Great Hunt,take pics and good luck with that "puny" 458! (Just kiddn')!!

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:

quote:

Originally posted by makeminestainless:
So in other words a 458 Win mag will go along great with the 243 Win I take to deer camp?

Only if you use Hornady DGS bullets loaded at 2150 f.p.s! No, North Forks.... well, maybe Barnes... Anyway, that .243 is a stopper on charging whitetails, that is, if you know when they are really charging instead of just using body language. And remember that you can stop most charges by cancelling your credit card.

Hey, lighten up guys.

Hey, In 20 days or so, I'll be 20 yards or so from an elephant. I'll have a .458 Win Mag with me. I will scroll down this thread (in my mind) before I shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Spectacular series of photos, JPK!

Yep!! That would pucker the arse for sure!!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:




JPK

Do I get you correct when you claim the distance between shooter and elephant is only seven yards?

Looks to me like the peanut cruncher has been stopped! I shoot a 458wm and am happy with it. If I was purchasing my 1st .458 --- I would happily buy the Lott version. But I have not heard that the Lott is so much superior that I should upgrade. The win mag. may not be the best, but it is 'good enough'.

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
JPK there really is no need to go to war and start name calling over a difference in opinion.
Second, that is not 7 yards and that elephant was not even close to a flat out charge, so you shot it unnecessarily. I know you are going to argue the point, but I know I have faced more Elephant charges than you and I know when an Elephant is serious. This also brings into question the stopping statement. I would say that as this elephant was not committed to killing you; that you most likely just gave her a good enough reason with the noise and the shock to her head to do what she wanted to , STOP. When an elephant wants to kill you it puts its head down and comes straight at you with intent, it would not have gone round the tree but come straight at you from the edge of the picture, at which point your missed brain shot would have been fatal, to you. As for "the friggin elephants ears", the reason they folded forward is because she was flapping them about in a mock charge trying to frighten you off before she had to kill you.
I now know why you believe you have stopped her, because it would seem that both of your elephant were not actually charging in the first place.
Good hunting
Ian



Indy
Not complacency at the moment of the shot, but complacency in not having prepared properly and not knowing exactly where the brain lies. Complacency or false bravado when getting into the situation that initiated the charge.
Good hunting
Ian

Viam,

When my first PH on an elephant hunt was telling me what to expect on a charge he stated as you did "When a elephant seriously charges, it drops it's head low to the ground, the ears are usually back against it's body and it comes silently. When it is a mock charge the head is up, the ears are out and it makes a lot of noise. They usually stop around ten yards away and look down their nose at you before turning around and running off". Well a few days later after shooting my first tuskless the matriarch of the herd charged us. Sure enough she started from about 20 yards, dropped her head immediately and came with her ears back and silently across the open ground between us. The PH stopped it with a head shot that missed the brain, it was a few inches low on the forehead. The elephant went down on it's knees and as it stood back up the PH brained it at a little less than six yards. Now this PH was extremely experienced at elephant hunting as he had spent several years with Zim Parks culling team and had killed several thousand elephants. That is why I picked him as my PH since he had so much experience and I thought I could learn a lot from him. A few days later another client's party was also charged by an unwounded cow. After a very hairy multiple shot encounter the elephant was killed. When I asked the client about the head position on the charge he stated that it was up during the whole charge until it was stopped at about 5 yards. Later I asked my PH about it and asked if since the head was up, was that a mock charge instead of a serious charge? He said when an elephant is coming at you and is only 5 yards away only a fool would not shoot, trusting that it would stop. Also he said not all elephants drop their heads at the same distance from their target. If they are running through trees they will keep their heads up to see where they are going and wait until they reach a clear space to drop their heads. That seems to be the case with JPK's elephant. There is also a big difference in behavior between Game Park elephants and those being harassed by hunters or natives protecting their crops. Park elephants especially bulls get used to humans and are more likely to mock charge. Park guides get to know individual elephants and what they can get away with during their demonstrations. That's not the case with non-park elephants.

Look at the promo portion of Jim Shockey's TV show and you will see a short clip of a cow with a small calf that charges them. Initially the cow has her head down in classic charge position but then raises it, is it now a mock charge? After it raises it's head, it clears a small tree in her way and then drops her head again in classic charge posture, The PH then kills it.

For you to say that JPK's elephant was not in a charge and that it was killed unnecessarily is in my opinion very poor form. You really don't have enough information to make that decision. Now I know you think you know when an elephant is serious but you are deluding your self. Elephants are unpredictable and it isn't possible to be 100% right all the time. Johnny Uys was a very experience elephant culler and was considered to be the most knowledgeable person on reading elephant charges. He was killed in Hwange Park by a cow that converted a mock charge to a real charge at the last moment.

But all of this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand of whether there is such a thing as stopping power. Ganyana has provided some data here from charges and fatalities in some of the Zim resident hunting areas. I don't remember the exact figures but in general those hunters using a 375 were all killed, those using 450 bore equivalent had a around a 50% mortality rate and not until you got up to 50 cal rifles was survival assured. Hopefully, Ganyana will jump on and give the exact figures. That is very, very compelling evidence that bigger is better. If accuracy was the determining factor then the smaller calibers would assure survival over the bigger calibers.

I don't know what data you are referring to from Kruger Rangers, but I would like to see some hard data from them supporting your position.

I apologize for being so long winded here but I believe following Viam's advise could get someone killed.

456H&H

All I can say about JPK's excellent picture series is (a) If that had happened to me, I'd of shot it too, mock charge or whatever, and (b) as a result of his shooting it, it stopped doing what it was doing and went away. JPK, rifle, and cartridge--all stopped the elephant charge.

quote:

Do I get you correct when you claim the distance between shooter and elephant is only seven yards?

Yes, the distance was seven yards. We paced it off. The tree she passed was nine or ten.

I am aware the photos make the distance appear greater, and that is consistant. For example, the photo at ~20yds, the first photo, doesn't make her look 20yds away, it looks further.

Perhaps a bit of perspective is given by the longer palm frond on the ground at the end of the path. It would be maybe three to four feet long.

Richard Tabor and I stopped a bull elephant at seven yards in Nyakasanga last may. The video makes the bull look a heck of a lot closer than these photos due, but it was again both me and Richard pacing the distance and the distance was the same.

BTW, the elephant came silently, with her trunk rolled up under her chin the whole way. And her head was lower when I pulled the trigger. The photo captures the elephant right in the midst of being stopped - you can see her trunck has unrolled as her head was forced up and back - by bullet impact!

On ears out or in, I've been mock charged both ways and for real charged both ways as well. I don't believe it is an accurate predictor of intent.

JPK

quote:

A few days later another client's party was also charged by an unwounded cow. After a very hairy multiple shot encounter the elephant was killed. When I asked the client about the head position on the charge he stated that it was up during the whole charge until it was stopped at about 5 yards.

Yeah, that was me. I relate that charge in my book. The bitch was over a hundred yards away in some heavy. Just our scent was like radar for her. She came busting out of the trees over fifty yards away with blood on her mind. No amount of shouting was going to stop her.

She had her ears out and trunk down and coming as fast as she could.

Two things are teachable from that charge. You can't believe everything a PH tells you and you can't depend on them to stop a charge!

That pic of the impact effect of JPK's shot on the Ele does not show it "fanning" its' ears, but rather the ears folding over from the sudden "stop" the bullet impact has caused the Ele to make.

I've been charged numerous times and even cornered by a cheeky group of female Ele in the Luangwa valley where we were preparing to shoot our way out, and while I don't hunt Ele exclusively like JPK does and haven't killed 18 of them, I've taken mine and after 15 safaris have more than a bit of experience with being in close proximity of them. I cannot take Vlam's counsel seriously, as it does not comport with mine.

Also, I'd bet that the camera lens used during the photo sequence of JPK's shot was set on wide angle, which would account for the deceptive appearance of the distance in the pics versus what the actual distance was measured at after the fact. Nicely done John.

quote:

Ganyana has provided some data here from charges and fatalities in some of the Zim resident hunting areas. I don't remember the exact figures but in general those hunters using a 375 were all killed, those using 450 bore equivalent had a around a 50% mortality rate and not until you got up to 50 cal rifles was survival assured. Hopefully, Ganyana will jump on and give the exact figures. That is very, very compelling evidence that bigger is better. If accuracy was the determining factor then the smaller calibers would assure survival over the bigger calibers.

Hi 465,

The statistics you mention are from a few years ago, from South Africa (I think) but consist of charges that were observed to start from within 30 yards. In 13 cases a "375-class" rifle was used and in ALL cases the hunter was killed or injuried. There were 8 cases involving a "470-class" rifles with 5 of the charges "successfully" stopped meaning the hunter was not killed or injuried. Obviously in three of those cases the hunter did not walk away. In three remaining cases a 500 or larger rifle was used and all of these charges were stopped.

Pretty compelling statistics to me.

(Hope all is well in Nampa...I still miss Boise a lot...)

I believe those were Zim Parks statistics. But whatever, baby guns can kill elephants but they are not stoppers.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I believe those were Zim Parks statistics. But whatever, baby guns can kill elephants but they are not stoppers.

Yes, they are Zim Parks stats, and yes it is compelling evidence.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
But whatever, baby guns can kill elephants but they are not stoppers.

Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

A few days later another client's party was also charged by an unwounded cow. After a very hairy multiple shot encounter the elephant was killed. When I asked the client about the head position on the charge he stated that it was up during the whole charge until it was stopped at about 5 yards.

Yeah, that was me. I relate that charge in my book. The bitch was over a hundred yards away in some heavy. Just our scent was like radar for her. She came busting out of the trees over fifty yards away with blood on her mind. No amount of shouting was going to stop her.

She had her ears out and trunk down and coming as fast as she could.

Two things are teachable from that charge. You can't believe everything a PH tells you and you can't depend on them to stop a charge!

Will,

Here I was trying my best to keep your name out of the story and you go ahead and confess!


465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I believe those were Zim Parks statistics. But whatever, baby guns can kill elephants but they are not stoppers.

Maybe we can modify that statement to read "Baby Guns can kill elephants but there is a unnecessary risk that they can also get you killed."

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I believe those were Zim Parks statistics. But whatever, baby guns can kill elephants but they are not stoppers.

Maybe we can modify that statement to read "Baby Guns can kill elephants but there is a unnecessary risk that they can also get you killed."

465H&H

No kidding. It made a believer out of me.

Viam,

I have shot only one elephant.

9 paces.

Dande North 2005.

450 Dakota.

Missed brain.

Not only "stopped" her but turned her around 180 degrees.

That, at least, pointed her in the right direction.

Away from me!

Bullet ended up in off side molar. (Which weighed about 16 kg.)

Hardly a CNS shot. Just turning away from unbearable pain?

Killed her w shot through left rear leg into lungs, and then spine.

Count me in with JPK, 465 HH, and Will.

Good company here on AR.

Respectfully,

Andy

Vlam is correct the! The 458 Winnie is only a semi-descent white tail deer rifle!

Seriously though it ain't a stopper and neither is a 458 Lott, 470 Ne, etc! The stoppers start with the fast 50 caliber magazine cartridges or the 577 NE 3" in a double, that is the "facts Jack"!

I probably know better than to jump back in this fray, but do feel compelled to take a look at both sides of the issue with some objectivity.

For the record I do agree that so called "stopping" bullets start at 458 caliber. I do believe in stopping bullets and cartridges can and do stop charges of all manner of dangerous game.

But the manner in which this works seems to be the issue at hand.

I am not quite sure that I am following Ian proper, but I think what he is trying to get at is that no bullet or cartridge that can be carried and shoulder fired is going to knock an elephant, or even other DG such as buffalo off their feet with shear physical mass, as we sometimes see in the movies a typical bad guy get blown 15 feet backwards by a handgun bullet! In Ian's definition of "stopping" he is 100% correct! No shoulder fired cannon is going to physically knock an elephant down, it is not possible to do so. How can a 500 gr bullet, just a tad over 1 oz, knock a 10000 lb plus animal down with pure physical mass? Not going to happen. Of course assuming that CNS is untouched or not effected. We were doing some test work here with a 600 OK last week. A 900 gr Woodleigh Soft at 1800 fps cannot move my bullet box and it does not come close to 10000 lbs. Nor can a 510 Wells and a 600 gr Woodleigh at 2350 fps. Physical knock down and stopping--this is what I "THINK" Vlam may be getting at. Although I am not 100% sure.

I have shot a few, and have seen a few elephants, buffalo, lion, and hippo. I believe in stopping bullets and cartridges! I know that JPK, 465, Will, and others are correct that stopping cartridges start at 458 caliber, and a 500 gr 458 caliber bullet at 2100 plus fps will in fact stop elephants and other dangerous game from stepping on, smashing, biting, and committing other mayhem on the shooter. But not from shear mass against mass. From having a big enough diameter bullet, hitting with enough force to cause trauma, energy transfer (causing headaches heh)and damage to said animal to cause it to either voluntarily or involuntarily rethink the course on which it may be embarked upon! The reactions you see from an animal taking impact of said bullets is not shear mass, it is an involuntary reaction to either pain or shock inflicted by the bullet, which is causing trauma and transfer of shock and energy to the subject. Therefore causing the animal to "stop", rethink the issue, turn, or attempt to recover, giving the shooter a second or third or more opportunity to solve the problem.

Yes the 458 Winchester properly loaded is a stopping cartridge. I have seen it at work, along with several others, at times with myself behind the gun, at times with others.

I am in 100% agreement that anything less than 458 caliber may not qualify, up to and including the various 416s! Especially on buffalo, hippo, elephant. Thin skinned dangerous game maybe. But even then I would rather start at 458 caliber for that sort of work.

Diameter Makes a Difference---To a point! I think and believe anything between 458 and 510 is optimum with proper bullets!

Well there we go! I guess the attacks can start now!

Michael

Michael458,
Which bullets would you use to make the 458 a stopper?

W.D.M. Bell:
"I have never been able to appreciate "shock" as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot hope to kill an elephant weighing 6 tons by "shock" unless you hit him with a field gun....If I belonged to this school I would have had built a much more powerful weapon than the 600 bores."

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Michael458,
Which bullets would you use to make the 458 a stopper?

ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT I NEED TO STOP?

fla3006

I assume you are referring the "shock" issue to me. Don't think you quite understand exactly what I am trying to get at---not "shock" as in the physical sense of the term, as Ian I think infers, but just the mental shock of being hit with something that is causing pain, trauma or an issue--Like "Oh Shit" What just hit me? Whatever it is hurts, maybe I will do something different, you know that sort of thing!

Now crawl on out from behind that couch like a man!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Vlam is correct the! The 458 Winnie is only a semi-descent white tail deer rifle!

Seriously though it ain't a stopper and neither is a 458 Lott, 470 NE, etc! The stoppers start with the fast 50 caliber magazine cartridges or the 577 NE 3" in a double, that is the "facts Jack"!

I don't know if that is a glowing endorsement!

577 is not a 50 cal, the bullet diameters are 585 it is truly more a 60 cal than a 50 cal.

I am sure I will get flamed for this, but the 450 NE, 470 NE and 458 Win all throw a 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps, they are equivalent. One can argue about the .20 larger diameter of the 470, but I think its moot. The lott is a bit more of the same. Behind the 458 win, the 458 lott is probably the second most popular amongst PHs carrying a stopping rifle. The 500s, for whatever reason (I do have some guesses) just aren't as popular. It would appear that the stopping rifles indeed begin with the 458s, of course Harry Selby excepted. If it took more than a 458, then thats what would be carried.

The 500 NE has been a good elephant stopper so I am sure the 500 Jeff, 505 Mag, 500 mbogo would do equally as well.

The one thing you have to take into account, on a charging elephant, is that you have to be able to hit the brain on a frontal shot, no matter what you shoot. If you miss the brain, the odds are stacked severely against you.

The 458 win has about half the recoil of a 500 jeffery, if you don't practice often, you will miss your target. For those that miss with a 458 win, I am not sure going to something larger will help.

Caliber is no substitute for aim. Too many PHs wish their clients would bring a 375 instead of a 458 for this not to be true.

John

quote:

Caliber is no substitute for aim.

I see this generic "truism"-type statement time and time again, but I think that this statement has to be reconciled with the fact that in 13 documented close range charges a 375-class rifle NEVER stopped a charge whereas in ALL three cases a 500-class rifle did stop the charge. I think that it is a bit extreme to think that in all of these cases the 500-class rifle shooters were that much better in their shooting than the ones carrying 375s or that basically the 375 shooters apparently could not hit the broadside of a barn.

If one assumes that all of shooters were generally equal (or that the 375 shooters were vern better) in their shooting ability then caliber selection is the most important component in stopping charges.