quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The 458 w/500 gr bullets at 2150 fps is a stopper, but I never could see any difference between it and the Lott. Though there may be a difference, I couldn't see it.

The 458 WM is the same as any 500 gr. bullet going 2150 fps. It stops them.

+1
It's a stopper, Paul Groebler, Richard Harland, Barry Duckworth, etc., etc., etc. used the old ammo and killed between them 1000's of ele's they sing it's praise that's enough experience for me to trust it under ALL CONDITIONS. I've had three rifles chambered in Lott they're all sold I'll keep my 458WM.

+2. Throw in Ron Thomson with Richard Harland, Barrie Duckworth and Paul Grobler and your looking at maybe 15,000 elephants killed by the 458wm. None of the four complained about it and all remain fans or did so until they passed away.

BTW, Jeffeoso, most all 450NE rifles, whether 3 1/4" or No2's or 500/450's, run 2050-2125fps WITH 480GR BULLETS! With 500's that is easy territory for the WM handloaded and some factory loads make that, with the 500's.

JPK

JPK,

The above will find it amusing that they passed away and no one bothered to tell them!

465H&H

quote:

The above will find it amusing that they passed away and no one bothered to tell them!

Saeed's chronograph only lies when it's being used on the .458 Win mag, since we KNOW the win mag won't go over 1900 fps, all those 2100-2178 etc. are the chronograph lying.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Saeed's chronograph only lies when it's being used on the .458 Win mag, since we KNOW the win mag won't go over 1900 fps, all those 2100-2178 etc. are the chronograph lying.

Mean like these?
http://www.accuratereloading.com/458winmag.html

I think most can hit 2050 with a 500 gr bullets without too much fuss. Running a 480 gr bullet puts it on par with the 450 NE, which has done fine for years. But some folks just want something different, which is OK.

John

There has been a lot of misinformation posted here.

Last year I killed a bull elephant, a dagga boy, and a bull hippo with my .458WM. It worked great.

I can get 2200fps with 500 grain Barnes banded solids in my 22" barrel with no pressure signs using AA2230. I prefer--and used--North Fork 450s because there is a lot of reason to believe they penetrate as well or better, with their flat noses, than round nosed 500 grain solids. Also they recoil less in my 10.3 pound rifle. Again using AA2230 I get 2250 fps. I could possibly get more but had no need to do so. For soft points I used 450 grain TSXs, finding they shoot to the same point of impact at 100 yards.

Lately I have been experimenting with some 350 grain TSXs for lion or plains game. I can get 2700 fps with this pointed bullet using H4198. Sort of a fat 30-06 with 5700 foot-pounds of muzzle energy for those interested in such things. But I was disappointed to find the point of impact was much different from the 450 grain loads.

So the .458WM is definitely a very worthwhile cartridge for the largest game. According to Hornady, their Lott loads in 500 grains only go 50 fps faster. Why fool with the Lott?

Hey guys I have an Argentine 1909 action I was going to use for a .458 WM. However the Lott has always intriqued me. Does anyone know if the Lott will fit this action. Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The 458 w/500 gr bullets at 2150 fps is a stopper, but I never could see any difference between it and the Lott. Though there may be a difference, I couldn't see it.

The 458 WM is the same as any 500 gr. bullet going 2150 fps. It stops them.

+1
It's a stopper, Paul Groebler, Richard Harland, Barry Duckworth, etc., etc., etc. used the old ammo and killed between them 1000's of ele's they sing it's praise that's enough experience for me to trust it under ALL CONDITIONS. I've had three rifles chambered in Lott they're all sold I'll keep my 458WM.

+2. Throw in Ron Thomson with Richard Harland, Barrie Duckworth and Paul Grobler and your looking at maybe 15,000 elephants killed by the 458wm. None of the four complained about it and all remain fans or did so until they passed away.

BTW, Jeffeoso, most all 450NE rifles, whether 3 1/4" or No2's or 500/450's, run 2050-2125fps WITH 480GR BULLETS! With 500's that is easy territory for the WM handloaded and some factory loads make that, with the 500's.

JPK

JPK,

The above will find it amusing that they passed away and no one bothered to tell them!

465H&H

I believe Paul Grobler would have great difficulty complaining!

Didn't intend my post to imply the rest were beyond complaining.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Saeed's chronograph only lies when it's being used on the .458 Win mag, since we KNOW the win mag won't go over 1900 fps, all those 2100-2178 etc. are the chronograph lying.

Mean like these?
http://www.accuratereloading.com/458winmag.html

I think most can hit 2050 with a 500 gr bullets without too much fuss. Running a 480 gr bullet puts it on par with the 450 NE, which has done fine for years. But some folks just want something different, which is OK.

John

This is such bull. Even starting loads with AA2230 exceed 2050fps in my rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Saeed's chronograph only lies when it's being used on the .458 Win mag, since we KNOW the win mag won't go over 1900 fps, all those 2100-2178 etc. are the chronograph lying.

Mean like these?
http://www.accuratereloading.com/458winmag.html

I think most can hit 2050 with a 500 gr bullets without too much fuss. Running a 480 gr bullet puts it on par with the 450 NE, which has done fine for years. But some folks just want something different, which is OK.

John

This is such bull. Even starting loads with AA2230 exceed 2050fps in my rifle!

I beg you to read again, 2050 without much fuss means easy to hit 2050. I am not sure what constitutes BS. My point was that one could achieve 450 NE loads quite easily, and I have yet to hear how inadequate the 450 NE is on game. Oh well you can please some people some of the time, but no people all of the time.

John

We do know that the difference between 2150 and 2200 is a dead elephant verses a wounded one. And that a 458wm is not suitable for dangerous game, but a Lott is

Gotta dig that Canadian Humour!

John

First off, there is no such thing as a "stopping rifle"
A rifle that can penetrate to the CNS is what you need and the 458 WM can do that with ease and has done so on more elephant than any other in africa.
All of the culling in the Kruger park and "Stopping" on trails was done with 458 WM. In terms of penetration you wont find anything that gives you the same for the felt recoil in the 45's. The .416's and 375 are better yet and have flatter trajectory. However if you are shooting in heavy brush your 458 might do better if going through a branch etc (bit of a non issue though).
I personally have a 458 Lott which I use with both 450gr FN solids and 315 gr HV expanding mono metals. This to me is the ultimate all around rifle and can take anything from Gemsbuck at 350m to elephant standing over you.
Good luck and I suggest shooting some if you have the chance before buying.
Ian

Only been to Africa once and never used a .458 anything... BUT, I have quite a bit of experience in handloading two .458WM's. One, a Ruger M77 with 22" tube and my current CZ550 with 25 inches. My go-to load for big Canadian game like moose and bears is the 350 TSX at 2750 fps. That translates into 5890 ft-lbs of smash, like a wrecking ball, at the muzzle. And, I do know that it will make, at least, 2286 fps from the 500 Hornady Int. at the muzzle. And that's not a max load. BTW, that's 5800 ft-lbs at the MZ, if anyone's interested. That's about all I know, as I haven't killed anything with it yet... but I think that's about to change. I did kill a black bear with the Ruger M77 and a 350 Speer.

There is something else I know, however...
I have a life-long friend in New Brunswick, retired there. He (with family)spent most of his adult years at the Rift Valley Academy in Kenya, until his retirement. He hunted ele and buff every year until hunting was shut down in 1977. He killed an ele every year, sold the tusks, which paid for his and families trips back and forth to Canada every fourth year. They often stayed for a few days with us in Quebec.

He had two rifles and NEVER handloaded: a .458WM in an M70 African (one of the first models) and a 300WM for plains game. He NEVER complained about either. He killed a lot of DG, using solids on the eles, and softs and solids on the buffs. He also shot and killed a pile of plains game, including giraffe, zebra and wildebeest, but not limited thereto. After hunting was shut down, he took up golf with the same passion!

That's all I know... but there's someone on here that I correspond with and I trust him and his experience.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

458only, what load do you use to get 2286? I assume that is from the 25" CZ. Thanks.

I shoot a .458 Winchester Magnum and like it quite well. Good cartridge choice in a "stopping" rifle. I handload "shorter" length 500 gr bullets at between 2150 and 2200 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
458only, what load do you use to get 2286? I assume that is from the 25" CZ. Thanks.

fla3006; yes, it's the CZ550. I do seat bullets a bit longer than "normal" (3.34") because of the long action. I made a slight error from memory: It was 2282 fps from 80grs of H4895, Win brass and WLRM primers. That's about all the H4895 I could get into the case without more compression, though it's easy to load 83 grains of H335 due to being a ball powder. The Barnes Banded and TSX's can be crimped into the bottom cannelure making the COL equal to the Lott, if wanted. That feeds better in my long action. For "standard" actions of course it won't be possible to load as much powder, though it has been pointed out by Indy that his M70 with a 22" tube attains almost the MV I can get with 25-inches firing the 350TSX. Others have pointed out that some M70's have a long action capable of handling the Lott. We know that's true because it handles the 375H&H without problems, and the Lott is based on the 375H&H case, though a tad shorter.

As we all know, I think, the .458 Win Mag has an almost extremely long freebore or leade, therefore making it possible with some longer monolithic bullets, such as Barnes, to be crimped into the bottom groove, or second from bottom, making them easily on par with the Lott, if wanted. I'll not say it's "needed" because I seriously doubt that nearly 6000 ft-lbs is needed for anything. I firmly believe, from clear testimonies and abundant evidence, that a 500-grain whatever at 2150 fps is plenty for anything. Anything more is for bragging rights only at the cost of more recoil.

That's my take on it. If you want, you can read my blog on it giving more details at:

www.bigbores.ca

Bob

.458 Only : what is a good powder for the WM with 500gr bullets? I hear AA2230 is.

I have a BRNO 602, and some Hornady 500gr RN along with 480gr DGX and DGS.

The original question was who has used them,etc...I have take several Cape with my Browning 458 Win Mag with 450 Barnes X bullets and they did the job very well,some did exit and if they didnt,were stuck in the hide on the far side ...BUT,if you dont have one yet,get a Lott,it IS better and can get you 200 fps more,or even shoot the 500,550 or 600s as fast as the lighter bullets in the short Win Mag Case.But,Yes,the Win Mag is a great Stopper with Proper bullets and proper SHOT Placement!

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Saeed's chronograph only lies when it's being used on the .458 Win mag, since we KNOW the win mag won't go over 1900 fps, all those 2100-2178 etc. are the chronograph lying.

Mean like these?
http://www.accuratereloading.com/458winmag.html

I think most can hit 2050 with a 500 gr bullets without too much fuss. Running a 480 gr bullet puts it on par with the 450 NE, which has done fine for years. But some folks just want something different, which is OK.

John

This is such bull. Even starting loads with AA2230 exceed 2050fps in my rifle!

I beg you to read again, 2050 without much fuss means easy to hit 2050. I am not sure what constitutes BS. My point was that one could achieve 450 NE loads quite easily, and I have yet to hear how inadequate the 450 NE is on game. Oh well you can please some people some of the time, but no people all of the time.

John

Like I said, bull.

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
First off, there is no such thing as a "stopping rifle"
A rifle that can penetrate to the CNS is what you need and the 458 WM can do that with ease and has done so on more elephant than any other in africa.
All of the culling in the Kruger park and "Stopping" on trails was done with 458 WM. In terms of penetration you wont find anything that gives you the same for the felt recoil in the 45's. The .416's and 375 are better yet and have flatter trajectory. However if you are shooting in heavy brush your 458 might do better if going through a branch etc (bit of a non issue though).
I personally have a 458 Lott which I use with both 450gr FN solids and 315 gr HV expanding mono metals. This to me is the ultimate all around rifle and can take anything from Gemsbuck at 350m to elephant standing over you.
Good luck and I suggest shooting some if you have the chance before buying.
Ian

This too is bull. More than 100yrs and thousands of hunters have proven that stopping rifle begin at the 450NE's.

What is a stopping rifle? A rifle with enough bullet weight and enough velocity for that bullet to turn an elephant almost all of the time. But there are no gaurantees.

I have turned two eles inside of 7yds with less than prefect brain shots. Would a medium bore have done either? Less likey.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:
.458 Only : what is a good powder for the WM with 500gr bullets? I hear AA2230 is.

I have a BRNO 602, and some Hornady 500gr RN along with 480gr DGX and DGS.

IanD;

I use H335 almost exclusively for the 500's. It's a ball powder making it possible to load up to 5 grains more than stick powders, due to volume issues in the standard-length case of the 458WM. Also, it's extremely accurate and consistent. I use 78 grains behind the Hornady Interloc at 2202 fps and an extreme spread of 4!
As mentioned, I use WLRM primers which are ideal for ball powders. H4895 is excellent also but being a stick powder it's not possible to get as much into the case. Hornady recommends H335 both for the Winnie and the Lott. My COL is 3.51" and I use a Lee crimp die.

Your BRNO 602 is essentially the same rifle as the CZ (name change only)so you should have no problem seating bullets out, especially the Barnes by crimping into the bottom cannelure (groove). See my blog for more info.

I've not been able to find AA2230 in my area, though it is highly recommended. TAC appears to be about the same as H335. I do have some AA2460 on hand which I plan on giving a try one of these days. According to the Accurate Arms site, it gave higher velocity than 2230 at lower psi.

That's almost all I know!

SAFARIKID: read my blog to get a different view.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

JPK
What you have said is bull
There is no physical way in which a bullet weighing even up to 2000gr can have any physical ability to physically turn or stop an elephant. Any DG PH will tell you, just ask Ganyana if any rifle can actually "STOP" an elephant. Hell ask Ivan Carter or any of the others too. The recent test with the 700 Nitro showed just that on Buff. There is no rifle that can stop an elephant or any other animal in the big 5 except by hitting in or near the CNS and causing it to change its intended course through its own will or to shut down completely and crash to a halt.
Accurate shot placement is the only way to ensure your ass stays in tact, no rifle big or small can displace an animal physically, if you think you can shoot your way out of it you are wrong, hit the CNS or close enough to disrupt or stun it or you will certainly come out on the wrong end of the equation.

Each to his own, but please don't spread false information, it was wrong 100 years ago and it is wrong today. Some poor schmuck could get himself killed,
Good hunting
Ian

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
JPK
What you have said is bull
There is no physical way in which a bullet weighing even up to 2000gr can have any physical ability to physically turn or stop an elephant. Any DG PH will tell you, just ask Ganyana if any rifle can actually "STOP" an elephant. Hell ask Ivan Carter or any of the others too. The recent test with the 700 Nitro showed just that on Buff. There is no rifle that can stop an elephant or any other animal in the big 5 except by hitting in or near the CNS and causing it to change its intended course through its own will or to shut down completely and crash to a halt.
Accurate shot placement is the only way to ensure your ass stays in tact, no rifle big or small can displace an animal physically, if you think you can shoot your way out of it you are wrong, hit the CNS or close enough to disrupt or stun it or you will certainly come out on the wrong end of the equation.

Each to his own, but please don't spread false information, it was wrong 100 years ago and it is wrong today. Some poor schmuck could get himself killed,
Good hunting
Ian

You have a very confusing definition of "Stopping". A stopping rifle is one that will stop a charge by an elephant. The stop can be caused by the bullet hitting the CNS and killing the elephant, hitting close enough to the CNS to knock it down and out cold or hitting with enough force to make the elephant turn away from the charge. All of those are"stops". To say there is no such thing is pure BS as JPK said. In fact you have said it your self. Now any caliber with sufficient penetration will accomplish a kill if the brain is hit. The other results are dependent on the bullet weight, diameter, and how close the bullet hits to the central nervous system. Bigger is better in most cases. Actually, you can also stop a charge by hitting and damaging one of the leg bones. An elephant can't walk let alone run if one of the large leg bones is broken or severely damaged. Although that is too tricky of a shot to count on.

465H&H

Vlam,

Why the hostility? I think that you and JPK are saying the same thing. If you shoot a charging beast with a bullet big enough to penetrate to the brain or stun it with a close-in shot, it will fall down or (sometimes) turn away. Either way you stopped the charge. For about 100 years it has been accepted that a 500 grain .458 solid bullet at 2150 will do that.

Interesting discussion Men, I traded for an old Ruger 458 from another AR member and must say its the most accurate big bore I have ever fired. A charge of H-332 easily pushes 500gn Woodie PPSP and solids @ 2200 fps with no problems. Although the solids hit abuot 1" lower @ 100yds through a 1.5x5 leu. The irons make snuff can size groups @ 50yds off sticks all day long. With that kind of power and accuracy in a light package, I dont see how a good shooter could go wrong, or in any way be handi-capped by choosing the 458 win mag. Im very glad I listened to all the good advice about the cartridge and rifle from AR members before I made the trade...No Regrets....Jerry

Here are a few more comments/observations that may be helpful to some:

Thinking outside the box: Statements often made that are unfavorable of the 458WM compared to the Lott are based on a) a standard-length action for the 458WM and a long-action for the Lott; and b)a 22" barrel in the 458WM and a 24" or 26" barrel for the Lott.

There's no doubt that in such a scenario, the Lott will surpass the 458WM by about 200 fps with the same 500gr at the muzzle. In Barnes manual #3, the results from the 458WM were from a 24" tube and those from the Lott were from a 26". Nonetheless, the 500-grainers only exceeded the 458WM by 150 fps. And the 600-grainer beat the 458WM by 100 fps (2149 vs 2053). Give them equal barrel lengths and the differential would be far less. I wrote in my blog (after having studied many manuals, gone to web sites and talked with personnel) that "all things being equal" (which they rarely are)the Lott has an advantage (at most) of 100 fps.

But let's consider this: My CZ550 in 458WM is the exact same rifle as in the Lott version, minus .30" for the brass, but NOT for the total chamber! The 458WM, including freebore (leade) actually exceeds the Lott by .17" (or thereabouts). That means that in the CZ you can actually seat longer bullets (monolithics, solids, 550's and 600's)to match the Lott in COL will STILL having more "freebore". PLUS, in the BRNO and the CZ you have a 25" barrel, not a 24" or the 23" of the RSM.

The same can be done in the Winchester M70 by simply having a good gunsmith remove the spacer in the magazine box.

Some will argue: "Why not make it a Lott to begin with?" Fair question. But why make it a Lott when you don't need to? I chose the 458WM in the CZ when I could have just as easily have had the Lott. I handled both and chose the 458 Winnie because of the abundance of brass and factory ammo. Didn't feel that I needed more than it offered knowing I could seat things "long" if wanted. Just didn't know how long at the time. Have found out since that I can go to 3.8" with some bullets... not with the short ones though.

Some have said:"But you can also seat the bullets out in the Lott". Yes, in a long-throated Ruger No.1, but NOT in a CZ or the RSM.

With the "new" monos from Barnes, and others with grooved shanks, one can choose where to crimp so that the COL for the 458 Winnie is not constrained to a COL of 3.34". The Lott, however, is constrained by the action that is used. So, it's NOT a given that the Lott will always be "better" than the 458WM. It's fairly easy to see that in a particular scenario, depending on bullet used, powder used, barrel length, action length, etc, the 458 Winnie could actually exceed the ballistics of the Lott!

My goodness... what blasphemy!!!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Either way you stopped the charge

Indy, no hostility, just returning the "this is bull" statement.

Your quote above is still not correct. I know what you mean when you say stopping rifle, but it has been conclusively proven that there is no such thing as a stopping rifle. A stopping shot there most certainly is but it is completely unrelated to the rifle, bullet diameter, weight or velocity. It has to do solely with the placement. So in short to state that buying a .458 Lott/WM puts you in a better situation when facing a charging beast is a fallacy, very often it puts you in a worse position because your complacency, based largely on a false sense of security granted by your " stopper " is going to get you killed when you miss the brain.

The most successful of the culling team in the Kruger park was a man by the name of Ertjies, he used a 300 WM with 180 gr solids to kill thousands of Elephant, he knew that the surest way to stop an elephant was to find the brain and this he did all day every day with his .300.

I hope you understand the logic behind my statements now and my concern for hunters who may not have the experience, going into situations thinking that their rifle is a get out of jail card because it has been called a stopper.
Your "stopper" is going to be nothing more than a noise maker if you don't place that bullet in the right place.

Good hunting
Ian

quote:

hitting with enough force to make the elephant turn away from the charge

465H&H I agree with all you have said except for the above statement.
YOu cannot " hit " an elephant with enough "force" to turn it. If you manage to scare it then maybe, but this is not due to force.

Now it may appear that you "have knocked him on his ass" but in reality it is related to the area of impact rather than knock down power ( transfer of energy)

Watch all the videos around of elephant being hit in the head where the shot misses the brain, very often you don't even get a shake of the head, and this s from a beast that has absorbed without flinching over 6000lbs of energy.
I hope together with my previous post you can understand what I am trying to get across, no hostility intended
Ian

Vlam,

To be honest this ain't doing much for your credibility as a PH.

The 458 WM, along with it's twins, is a stopper. Too many of us have stopped charges with even less to believe otherwise.

Of course you can't expect to stop a charge by shooting them in the foot, etc., but a reasonable good shot will stop an elephant. But you get down below 5000 ft-lbs and all bets are off!!

Will

Your opinion of me matters not in the least, I base what I have said on the findings of the people who have shot thousands of Elephants, not that of those who have hunted as a client in Africa with a PH to back them up. These are statistics and information gathered by an elite bunch of field guides in the Kruger park. Many of them with doctorates. Not merely the excited misjudgments of an adrenalin charged hunter having had a close shave.

The PH's may or may not tell you, but your stopper may do more good/damage hitting the elephant in the foot than if it were to miss the brain on a head shot.
Anyway, I care not to preach to the converted, you are an experienced hunter and can make up your own mind, just don't mislead others with broad statements that may cause them to make a serious mistake.

As you said, many of you have stopped charges, but it was due to shot placement not the punch delivered to the animals body. Any rifle penetrating to the same point would most likely have had the same effect. The 45-70 is as much of a stopper as the .458 express and the 450gr FN is most often far better than the 500-600gr RN because it penetrates, even from a light in the pants lever gun.

If anyone cares to explore the findings of seasoned wildlife veterans further then I will be glad to tell what I know.

Ian

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
Will

Your opinion of me matters not in the least, I base what I have said on the findings of the people who have shot thousands of Elephants, not that of those who have hunted as a client in Africa with a PH to back them up. These are statistics and information gathered by an elite bunch of field guides in the Kruger park. Many of them with doctorates. Not merely the excited misjudgments of an adrenalin charged hunter having had a close shave.

The PH's may or may not tell you, but your stopper may do more good/damage hitting the elephant in the foot than if it were to miss the brain on a head shot.

Ian

Not addressed to me, but I consider such statements to be extreme in the least...

My guess is that there are at least 10 times the number of PH's who carry big bores, like the 458WM, Lott, 470NE, etc, etc, as who carry marginal cartridges like the 9.3X62, etc for stopping a charge from an ele or buff. If that is reasonably true, then either they are dummies, or your doctorate friends are. And logic tells me that it can't be both.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Funny how this stays so fast into a pissing contest. Some folks got their temper triggers set way to high.

A lot of armchair quarterbacking. One could argue the fact that W Bell killed a crap-load of elephant with a 257 Rigby, but it is irrelevant, I doubt any PH would let you and I can't think of an African country that doesn't have a specific minimum of 375 H&H.

The paper hunters will argue that you need x velocity with y grains and z sectional density or you will be pounded to saltines. Maybe, Maybe not. What matters most is real world observations. In the real world, properly placed, a 500 gr round from the 458 does the trick. In the end, if you flub your shot, the pachy or buff won't be impressed by your paper ballistics.

Ian makes a good, all be it slightly ill tempered point, brain shots on a charging elephant would not be an easy task. Imagine shooting at a large loaf of bread hidden in a giant beach ball on the hood of a truck driving at you at 30 mph, and you get the picture. One has to be a keen shot, and more importantly, able to keep their wits about them while seeing the shoe size on an elephants foot. Many a talented hunter have met their end by stunning an elephant with a less than perfect brain shot only to become elephant toe ointment when it came to. I forgot who originally said it, but an extra round or two into the brain or a lot cheaper than a funeral.

As for stopping rifle, the best definition I can offer is one in which a round can penetrate the skull passing through the brain at angles encountered by a charging animal.

John

why did Jack Lott invent the 458 Lott?

answer that question and you have your entire discussion.

Didn't Bell use a 6.5MS, for the largest part of his shooting?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jeffeosso:
why did Jack Lott invent the 458 Lott?

answer that question and you have your entire discussion.


Yeah, I think I heard that once upon a time.

And as to all those Ele killed by government hunters with the WinMag, that's because there were no commercially available Lott rifles nor ammo available in those days. In other words, they used what they were issued.

I have never hunted with a PH using a .458WM, but have had a couple who did carry the .458Lott. I'm sure they had good cause to bother to convert a rifle to that caliber. I really don't care what caliber rifle someone else chooses and I have a number of different DG rifle calibers, but I own both a Ruger and a CZ in the Lott.

Vlam,

You poor devil, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Vlam,

You poor devil, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

I want to save that quote .. it WILL (irony intended) come back

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Didn't Bell use a 6.5MS, for the largest part of his shooting?

I think so, he used a bunch of different calibers. Capstick posted numbers of elephant for each caliber he had used, but I don't know how true to life they are. Oh and that was 275 rigby, not the 257 rigby.

John

For those that are interested in Bell and his caliber choices, here is an article.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm

John