Who shoots 458 WM and how did it perform for you. Thinking of getting a stopping rifle and wish any info anyone can provide. What loads do yo shoot for DG & what MV ? Any help will be appreciated.

The 458 win. despite its paper performance, has performed adequately for years. It is the most common DG cartridge in Africa. 458 with a 450 gr TSX MV at 2250 fps or so. works well on buffalo, not sure on ele, never took one. Recoil is stout, but very controllable and offers a good opportunity for follow up shots. I wouldn't feel under-gunned unless I was a PH protecting photography safaris.

John

Clay, The 458 Win Mag is a solid African performer. The early "issues" were due to ammunition problems and compressed loads with the powders of that time. New powders and ballistic technology have overcome those obstacles, once again making the 458 a good choice for a DGR in an affordable rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
The 458 win. despite its paper performance, has performed adequately for years. It is the most common DG cartridge in Africa. 458 with a 450 gr TSX MV at 2250 fps or so. works well on buffalo, not sure on ele, never took one. Recoil is stout, but very controllable and offers a good opportunity for follow up shots. I wouldn't feel under-gunned unless I was a PH protecting photography safaris.

John

no sir
the 375 hh is the most common bigbore in africa .. then the 9,3 by non PH's, and then some 45 ..

recoil is more or less trival in terms of bigbores.. about HALF the felt recoil of the lott .. and some ammo performance DID suck and people got KILLED over it. don't sweep the facts under the rug

its NOT a stopping rifle, its a clients gun.

want a stopping rifle? get a lott

Yes, for essentially the same money nowadays, a .458Lott is still a better choice.

I have used both 458 Winchester and 458 Lott, fairly extensively. Nothing wrong with the 458 Winchester if loaded proper, with proper bullets. My opinion it is at it's very best with 450 gr bullets.

The biggest problem with 458 Winchester is that it comes in the same size rifle as a 458 Lott!!!! There are no vast differences. The 458 Lott is what the 458 Winchester should have been. Go with a 458 Lott, it will give you everything you will ever need in 458 caliber and then some.

Michael

Who has used the 458 WM on elephant and what loads were used ? Is the recoil on 458 Lott much graetyer than 458 WM ?

quote:

Originally posted by clayman216:
Who has used the 458 WM on elephant and what loads were used ? Is the recoil on 458 Lott much graetyer than 458 WM ?

you will get a better response in AFRICAN HUNTING than in big bores

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
The 458 win. despite its paper performance, has performed adequately for years. It is the most common DG cartridge in Africa. 458 with a 450 gr TSX MV at 2250 fps or so. works well on buffalo, not sure on ele, never took one. Recoil is stout, but very controllable and offers a good opportunity for follow up shots. I wouldn't feel under-gunned unless I was a PH protecting photography safaris.

John

no sir
the 375 hh is the most common bigbore in africa .. then the 9,3 by non PH's, and then some 45 ..

recoil is more or less trival in terms of bigbores.. about HALF the felt recoil of the lott .. and some ammo performance DID suck and people got KILLED over it. don't sweep the facts under the rug

its NOT a stopping rifle, its a clients gun.

want a stopping rifle? get a lott

With all due respect, I fail to see any justification for saying the 458 Win isn't a stopping rifle. I have chronoed a good number of the current factory loads for it. With 500 grain bullets most factory loads will give you 2,020 to 2,090 fps. depending on barrel length and manufacturer. (see my article "The 458 Winchester is Back." in the current issue of African Hunter Magazine. If that isn't a stopping cartridge than the 450 3/14'. 500/450, 450 No2, 500/465/, 470 Nitro, 475 Nitro and 475 No2 aren't stopping rifles either since they all propel 480-500 grain bullets at around 2,50 fps from 24 to 26" barrels. I suspect you would get some spirited response from a large number of African PHs on that statement. Does the Lott perform a little better? Yes, but the difference isn't tremendous.

465H&H

I killed my two elephants with my 458wm, using 550g GSFN. Glad the elephant did not know the round was not a "stopper"

465
we agree -- FRESH ammo, which a client brings, not what is available "every day" the 458 winmag FINALLY lives up to its (optimistic) original factory loading.

what is avaialble in africa ISN'T current factory loads, is it? It is not like they have fresh this year hornady heavy mag?


A 450/470/465/any other round you want to put in the mix...

DOES make book with its default and nominal loading ...

MOST 458 winmag .. say old whitebox winchester, DOESNT .. the same mag that lists teh 458 winmag is back also is the one that reported the horrific failures of the 458 winmag.

Don Hearh wrote quite a bit about it FAILING to make anything like 2000fps ..


Bryan -- where you paying to hunt or a PH? I would assume you are the client inthe matter, yes?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Does the Lott perform a little better? Yes, but the difference isn't tremendous.

465H&H

I disagree.. but that's just my opinion ..
Does the lott make 2300 with ALL spec factory loads? Just about.. NO ONE has run out and told us all about how the lott will ONLY go 2100FPS ..

However, LOTS of people have told us about failing ammo that WON'T make 1900 in a 458 wimag ..

that, sir, is a HUGE difference.

"it's only 200 fps" .. or about 40% more recoil, and another TON of muzzle energy ..

MORE than the difference from a 375 HH to a 458 winmag is the difference in a 458 lott and a "field aged" winmag...

reloading is ILLEGAL in some african countries...

<sigh> why do i bother? The man is thinking of having a stopping rifle... what's a stopping rifle? a 9.3x62 is a "Stopping" rifle, if you brain them ..

quote:

michael458: The biggest problem with the 458 Winchester is that it comes in the same size rifle as a 458 Lott!

I suppose a Lott could be built on a standard length action but not many are. I think a big advantage of the Win is that it is almost always built on lighter, less expensive, easier handling standard length actions. For instance, my Whitworth 458W is much easier handling than my ZKK-602 Lott.

Back on topic, a 458Win loaded with 450s should be plenty adequate for anything.

On a Winchester M70 there is no difference in the standard or long action in 458 Winchester and 458 Lott. I have several of both, both have 24 inch barrels standard, although you can have 22s, but you start to loose with that cartridge.

I know squat about a Whitworth and don't even have a clue as to what a ZKK-602 is. Regardless thereof I imagine that there are no major differences. A 458 Win capacity case should be in a rifle that is 38 inches overall with 18 inch barrels and weigh around 7 lbs, this is the sort of difference I am talking about--not a 1/2 inch difference in action length!

On topic--I stated without doubt a proper loaded 458 Winchester is more than satisfactory with proper bullets--450s for the heavies-Barnes FN Solids/Swift As---350-400s for thin skinned dangerous game! But this must be loaded in most cases, and not available in factory loads-most cases not all. I have used the 458 Winchester for this sort of work, and 458 Lott.
Michael

Clayman, you have a PM

Guys,

I think the 458 Win Mag's past performance with old powders is irrelevant when choosing a big bore today. If I was to have a 45 something built today I would probably choose the Lott but if there was a rifle I real wanted built on a standard length action in 458 WM I would not hesitate to buy it. My opinion is that most of the critics of the 458 Winnie have never shot anything with it. Personally I've shot caribou, moose, buffalo and elephant with it. It works just fine.

Mark

Now tsibindi knows a thing or two about the 458 WM.

The 458 w/500 gr bullets at 2150 fps is a stopper, but I never could see any difference between it and the Lott. Though there may be a difference, I couldn't see it.

The 458 WM is the same as any 500 gr. bullet going 2150 fps. It stops them.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Does the Lott perform a little better? Yes, but the difference isn't tremendous.

465H&H

I disagree.. but that's just my opinion ..
Does the lott make 2300 with ALL spec factory loads? Just about.. NO ONE has run out and told us all about how the lott will ONLY go 2100FPS ..

However, LOTS of people have told us about failing ammo that WON'T make 1900 in a 458 wimag ..

that, sir, is a HUGE difference.

"it's only 200 fps" .. or about 40% more recoil, and another TON of muzzle energy ..

MORE than the difference from a 375 HH to a 458 winmag is the difference in a 458 lott and a "field aged" winmag...

reloading is ILLEGAL in some african countries...

<sigh> why do i bother? The man is thinking of having a stopping rifle... what's a stopping rifle? a 9.3x62 is a "Stopping" rifle, if you brain them ..

I have only chronographed one factory load in the Lott and that is the Hornady load advertised as 2,300 fps. From my 23" barrel it went 2,200 fps, still a very serious velocity and about 100 fps more than the same load in the 458 Win. A 100 fps difference hardly makes a tremendous difference.

The anemic loads for the 458 Win you mention are no longer made and haven't been made in years. The problems of compacted powders were solved years ago. Might there be still some of that ammo floating around Africa, of course. Should any one be dumb enough to use it, I hope not. Modern ammo is up to par. The going advise is, no matter what DG ammo you use, make sure it is fresh, whether it is a factory load or hand load.

Use relatively fresh factory ammo in the Winne and you will have loads that equal the old British Nitro Express calibers but with much better bullets. My point is still valid that the 458 Win is as reliable a DG cartridge as the old Nitro Express cartridges.

465H&H

jeffeosso: Yes, I was the client, however, the elephant did not ask my pedigree either. Incidentally, I misstated the ammo: I shoot 500g GSFN; not, 550g

quote:

michael458: On a Winchester M70 there is no difference in the standard or long action in 458 Winchester and 458 Lott....I know squat about a Whitworth and don't even have a clue as to what a ZKK-602 is

And I know squat about M70s, those manufactured after 1964 anyway.

I will be carrying my 458 WM for elephant this October in Zim. While I have taken a couple of buffalo with the 500 Hornady SPs and one follow up shot with a solid, I have contemplated changing to the Woodleigh 500gr. Solid for elephant. For those who have used it, is it a good bullet for elephant. Or, what would be your bullet choice? Thanks.

Have used Woodleighs and they work though they bend a bit on occasion, but they still worked.

I have never used the new Hornady solids (DGS??) but the old steel ones are like the Woodleighs. THe new Horandy's have a thinner steel jacket than the Woodleighs. Some say they're okay and some don't. If it was I, I'd use the Woodleighs.

There isn't $0.02 difference in terminal ballistics between a 458 Winnie and a 458 Lott! The Lott runs in, the REAL world, about 80 to 100 fps faster than the Winnie, absolutely NO big difference as far as the animal is concerned. I have seen them both in action, and you could not have discerned which holes came from the Winnie and which from the Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:

quote:

michael458: On a Winchester M70 there is no difference in the standard or long action in 458 Winchester and 458 Lott....I know squat about a Whitworth and don't even have a clue as to what a ZKK-602 is

And I know squat about M70s, those manufactured after 1964 anyway.

Fla3006

Thanks, It is good to know that I am not the only ignorant one here! Or at least the only one to admit it, eh!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The 458 w/500 gr bullets at 2150 fps is a stopper, but I never could see any difference between it and the Lott. Though there may be a difference, I couldn't see it.

The 458 WM is the same as any 500 gr. bullet going 2150 fps. It stops them.

+1
It's a stopper, Paul Groebler, Richard Harland, Barry Duckworth, etc., etc., etc. used the old ammo and killed between them 1000's of ele's they sing it's praise that's enough experience for me to trust it under ALL CONDITIONS. I've had three rifles chambered in Lott they're all sold I'll keep my 458WM.

ya'll are right.. a .458 500gr bullet at 2150 is a stopper ...

be it from a 45/70, 458 winmag a 45/120, a 450 ne, a 458 lott, or 460 weatherby...

but only the latter 3 will deliver it every day, every shoot, without trying .. the first three are wannabees

Jeff, I agree whole heartedly. The Lott is my favorite by far. It will achieve the listed velocity, on a regular basis. Not so with the others.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
465
we agree -- FRESH ammo, which a client brings, not what is available "every day" the 458 winmag FINALLY lives up to its (optimistic) original factory loading.

what is avaialble in africa ISN'T current factory loads, is it? It is not like they have fresh this year hornady heavy mag?

Have you ever been to Africa? Why would you believe that the ammo for sale in Africa is not of current manufacture?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
MOST 458 winmag .. say old whitebox winchester, DOESNT .. the same mag that lists teh 458 winmag is back also is the one that reported the horrific failures of the 458 winmag.

Don Hearh wrote quite a bit about it FAILING to make anything like 2000fps ..

Ron Thomson killed 5,000 elephants. Most were killed with the 458WM. He was using the old ammo in the 458. Most of the bad press came from people who were pretty inexperienced and/or using damaged ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

no sir
the 375 hh is the most common bigbore in africa .. then the 9,3 by non PH's, and then some 45 ..

recoil is more or less trival in terms of bigbores.. about HALF the felt recoil of the lott .. and some ammo performance DID suck and people got KILLED over it. don't sweep the facts under the rug

its NOT a stopping rifle, its a clients gun.

want a stopping rifle? get a lott

I would agree with the 375 H&H and 9.3 x 62 would be the most common, there is debate whether they are big bores, and I'm not sure I would classify them as stoppers either. For those used to blasting away with big bores, recoil is not an issue, for those that don't, a lott can be hard to control.

As far as previous ammo problems, its not that I'm sweeping it under the rug, its just I haven't heard of a single issue with ammo produced in the last 10 years. I think we can agree that more PHs have used win mags over the lott, although the lott is gaining in popularity, it still has a way to go.

And most use it for stopping and haven't had any problems. And one only has to look at Harry Selby, who has worked for 50 years guiding, had no clients or workers mauled, and his rifle for most of it was with a 416 Rigby.

John

Thread tagged for entertainment

I personally own a .458WM and would not feel undergunned against ANYTHING on the planet.

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:
Thread tagged for entertainment

I personally own a .458WM and would not feel undergunned against ANYTHING on the planet.

Some folks feel under-gunned with anything less than a 30mm chain gun, some insist on a 22-250 for everything. Somewhere in the middle lies reality!

John

JB --- here's what I said ..

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
ya'll are right.. a .458 500gr bullet at 2150 is a stopper ...

be it from a 45/70, 458 winmag a 45/120, a 450 ne, a 458 lott, or 460 weatherby...

but only the latter 3 will deliver it every day, every shoot, without trying .. the first three are wannabees

quote:

Originally posted by clayman216:
Who shoots 458 WM and how did it perform for you. Thinking of getting a stopping rifle and wish any info anyone can provide. What loads do yo shoot for DG & what MV ? Any help will be appreciated.

Clayman216

Somehow, as often happens, we got a bit off course. I have used 458 Winchester a good bit, done quite a bit of shooting over the years, and have seen 458 Win at work often. I have yet to see it fail, but I hand load proper bullets for the job at hand. I think to really get full potential out of the 458 Win you need to hand load for it.

From personal experience with 3 lions I can attest that a 400 Swift A frame at 2325 fps will stop them cold with a proper shot! In addition to that the same load will hammer any plains game, elk, moose, bear. On buffalo the 450 Swift at 2200 fps is great for first shots, followed by 450 gr Barnes FN Solids at 2200 fps. I have a friend that used the 450 Barnes FN for elephant, and penetration was more than enough on body and head shots.

Now there are enormous amounts of bullets available in 458 caliber, these are just the ones I use. I can also load 500 Woodleigh softs to 2150 fps and would feel very comfortable with those, although I mostly use 500s in the 458 Lott.

I really don't care much for factory ammo, but todays factory ammo is better than it has ever been in history. But still, I will always choose to roll my own in any cartridge I am shooting.

Nothing at all wrong with 458 Winchester! For that matter nothing wrong with 458 Lott either. If I could only choose 1 of these, it would be the Lott! But if I were out and found a suitable Win M70 in 458 Winchester then I would not have a problem with that either, and have done just that.

Today all my 458 Wins and Lotts are retired and I am using other cartridges. But 1 cartridge I am using is equal to 458 Winchester in capacity and performance, I am just doing it in a much smaller, lighter more compact rifle, but performance is the same as 458 Winchester. I do not feel under gunned in any way with it.

Michael

quote:

ya'll are right.. a .458 500gr bullet at 2150 is a stopper ...

be it from a 45/70, 458 winmag a 45/120, a 450 ne, a 458 lott, or 460 weatherby...

but only the latter 3 will deliver it every day, every shoot, without trying .. the first three are wannabees

Wow!! What a day. I learned that people can load a 45/70 to 2150 fps with a 500 grain bullet. COOL. I'll use that for bears, in a lever action.

458 Win Mag can't reliably go 2150 fps with a 500 grain bullet, and I don't care about the 45/120. It killed way too many bison to be relevant to the discussion.

I've shot a 450 Nitro Express, and, Kynochi(is that some kind of Norwegian candy?) said they used 480 grain bullets at 2150 fps, on the box. I learned they are wrong, and, that's NOT a stopping round..it's 20 grains too light...

The .460 Weatherby is only good for the cases so I can make a .510 Wells Express, and, a .510 Van Horn, and, it can barely do 2150 with 500 grain bullets.

This follows logically with the posts on the 375 H&H. A 300 grain bullet at 2600 fps is NOT a stopping round. However, if it's a Barnes X, or Walterhog, then, if it's going 100 fps faster, it becomes equal in effect to the .458 Lott.

I still can't figure out the 9.3 X 62, or 9.3 x 74R, that use a magical 286 grain bullet at 2300-2400 fps, and, yet manage to kill everything on the planet with the recoil of a .22lr....

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The 458 w/500 gr bullets at 2150 fps is a stopper, but I never could see any difference between it and the Lott. Though there may be a difference, I couldn't see it.

The 458 WM is the same as any 500 gr. bullet going 2150 fps. It stops them.

+1
It's a stopper, Paul Groebler, Richard Harland, Barry Duckworth, etc., etc., etc. used the old ammo and killed between them 1000's of ele's they sing it's praise that's enough experience for me to trust it under ALL CONDITIONS. I've had three rifles chambered in Lott they're all sold I'll keep my 458WM.

+2. Throw in Ron Thomson with Richard Harland, Barrie Duckworth and Paul Grobler and your looking at maybe 15,000 elephants killed by the 458wm. None of the four complained about it and all remain fans or did so until they passed away.

BTW, Jeffeoso, most all 450NE rifles, whether 3 1/4" or No2's or 500/450's, run 2050-2125fps WITH 480GR BULLETS! With 500's that is easy territory for the WM handloaded and some factory loads make that, with the 500's.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by clayman216:
Who has used the 458 WM on elephant and what loads were used ? Is the recoil on 458 Lott much graetyer than 458 WM ?

Clayman,

I have killed eighteen elephants with the 458wm.

Roughly half with 500gr Woodleigh solids and the other half with 450gr North Fork flat nose solids.

The Woodleighs I run at 2145fps using AA2230 and I run the 450's at ~2220fps, also with AA2230, though H4895 can work for the 450's. Neither of my loads is near max, but they shoot well from my rifle, which s a double rifle.

I have come to prefer Woodleighs for the first shot and North Forks for subsequent shots. The North Forks provide substantially better panatration than the Woodleighs, but the Woodleighs provide more than enough. The Woodleighs are, imo, better for penetrating heavy bone, as you might on a frontal or side brain shot. The North Fork (or GS Custom), with their greater penetration, work very well for body shots if required.

BTW, I have also killed four buff with the 458wm using the same loads. The Woodleighs are much prefered since the North Forks actually penetrate too much to be ideal on buff. But the North Fork cup point would be a great choice for buff.

JPK

quote:

+2. Throw in Ron Thomson with Richard Harland, Barrie Duckworth and Paul Grobler and your looking at maybe 15,000 elephants killed by the 458wm. None of the four complained about it and all remain fans or did so until they passed away.

Another thing I learned today. The 458WM works until you die, then you can complain it doesn't work?

Also, Safarikid is a heretic, since he uses expanding bullets on everything, and, since they don't penetrate enough, he made up all those pictures he posts...and the animals aren't really dead...

I know they cannot get a 500gr bullet over the 20's. Thats why Lott came out with the 500gr bullet going over 2300 FPS

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
I know they cannot get a 500gr bullet over the 20's. Thats why Lott came out with the 500gr bullet going over 2300 FPS

The moon is blue I tell you!