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| One of Us |
I quess that is with a big bore versus your 375 - just to make the point?? But in such small numbers the same could be experienced with a 6mm versus your 375... but in very large numbers (like Harland, La Grange, Nyeschens and others have shot) it is clear that the bigger bores have MUCH more stopping power or felling power as Harland put it... Remember I agree - nothing replaces correct bullet placement... But on a marginal shot - everything else equal - a big bore will be better than a medium bore.. And the bigger the better... | |||
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| one of us |
Eagle, you did compare elephants to buffalo. And you continue to miss the entire point. The efficacy of the big bore stopping rifle pretty much begins and ends with elephants, no other DG. No one has said that an elephant can't be killed with a lighter rifle, the evidence is expansive that they can be, with rifles as light as 5.56mm. But the evidence is equally expansive that lighter rifles do not stop elephants reasonably reliably while those rifles of about the 450NE level do (and as noted earlier, some include the 416R in it's historical loading, and so every other similarly loaded rifle,) and that is the point - mine, Harland's, Nychen's, Taylor's Groebler's, Scheepers, Duckworth's, Whittall's, etc, etc, etc, .... The incident where I stopped the elephant cow is merely one of thousands, one of two personal examples, the other being a bull. It is a little hypocritical to attempt to isolate my cow example while at the same time lumping all of the many successful hunts with lighter rifles, and comparing apples to oranges in the process. Take my one or two (successful) examples of stopping an elephant charge with a big bore stopping rifle and add them to the experiences (successful and not) of those elephant hunters past and still present who have hunted thousands of elephants. Likewise, add the charge stopping stopping (or failing to stop) experiences of those using medium bore rifles. The great weight of experience informs us that if you wish to hunt elephants close, in thick bush and rely on yourself to keep your hide intact, you ought to choose a big bore rifle. FWIW, I have been told by a number of PH's that a good 1/3 of hunters when charged by an elephant bolt when the elephant gets close (In Zimbabwe, a defensive shooting must be within 10yds, further than 10yds and the presumption is that the elephant did not need to be shot.) You don't read about those incidents, eh? With Saeed's often repeated penchant for avoiding any dangerous situation while hunting DG (DG isn't dangerous at 50yds!!!) I can think of more than a handful of other already proven AR members who I would prefer to be beside when the elephant comes. Richard Harland would have to lead the list, followed by Buzz Charlton, Martin Pieters, Thierry Labatt, Neil Duckworth and perhaps a few other well tested game rangers or PH's I have over looked, and then followed by Oz Hunter and other AR members who have stood their ground and stopped charging elephants. Perhaps Saeed has already been tested, if so I have not read of it. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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| one of us |
Well put! JPK Free 500grains | |||
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| one of us |
yeah..sure.. now tell me what HP does, again?  [/QUOTE]My point of the energy comment was it does not determine lethality or stopping potential,this was expanded by both Whitworth and Micheal458 in regards to big bore pistols, so it is pointless to reiterate what was said. I will not go into the debate of energy transfer, its a battle I am choosing to stay out of because 99.9% of us do not have the sophisticate equipment to accurately measure this, and this includes myself. 458wm, shooting 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2,135fps for a little more than 5,000lbs' of energy. 500 Linebaugh 460gr Punch 1150 fps 1350 fpe Both are stopping rounds, although the numbers are worlds apart, this was my point Idaho Sharpshooter, Thank you for the grammatical correction, but I can assure you, I spell above the third grade level most of the time!  [/QUOTE]XXXXXXXXXX You confuse stopping with killing. Your 500Linebaugh may be adequate to kill and elephant, but it is no reliable stopper, as the history of pre cordite rifles with not dissimilar ballistics reveals. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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| One of Us |
Perhaps we should quantify the topic as follows. Killing cartridges: The cartridge and platform you you are most precise and proficient Stopping cartridge: The largest cartridge in a platform you you are most precise and proficient. Deeply penetration bullets. Ones who's design gives greatest penetration without deviation or deflection and maintains bullet integrity during it's terminal travel (inside the animal ) Items that can assist this; bullet weight, caliber, sectional density. Increasing the combination of these make for a bigger hammer. I'd rather hunt with someone with precise efficiency in a smaller caliber than someone with a cannon that couldn't hit the door of the outhouse whilst sitting inside on the crapper. | |||
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| one of us |
Precise efficiency is always the goal, no matter the rifle, and it is a hell of a lot more frequently achieved at stand off distances with adequate time than when an elephant intent on killing you or one of your party is bearing down on you or breaking through the bush inside of 10yds. No matter how you wish to try to redefine stopping rifle, if it isn't capable of reasonably reliably stopping an elephant when you err, or when the angle or presentation does not allow for perfection, it isn't a stopping rifle. Since I get the impression that your post was directed at me, and pertaining to me missing the brain on the charging elephant, I will provide you with an example of precise shooting with the same rifle:  Note: The klipspringer was at about 75yds and he wasn't charging! On penetration, enough is enough, for the first shot. Imo, for elephant, for the first shot only, you can have too much. A bullet capable of penetrating six or seven feet or more depletes it's energy over those six or seven or more feet. A bullet that will reliably penetrate straight three to four feet is preferred. All of it's energy is expended within or close to the skull, providing the greatest effect in the event of a missed brain shot. And recall, none of Groebler, Harland, Whittall, Duckworth, Taylor, Nychens or so many other greats relied on their infallibility to brain an elephant, as evidenced by their choice of stopping rifles over medium bore rifles. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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| One of Us |
eagle27, The debate on weather it is better to use a smaller caliber that typically can be shot more accurately or a large bore 45+ that has proven stopping power on elephants has been going on ever since we switched from black powder to nitro cellulose. Nothing new can be said that hasn't already been said at least once over the last 120 years. What we can do is to look at what those with vast experience at hunting elephant choose to keep them selves alive. We can also look at data collected on outcomes of elephant charges and what the comparative success rates of various calibers where during those charges. In the early years late 1890s and early 1900s, the enhanced penetration on earl nitro cartridges like the 6.5 MS, 7X57 Mauser and 8mm Mauser over black powder cartridges were preferred. But over time and with experience gained from their use, it was found that these small calibers lacked enough hitting power to reliably stop an elephant charge. The large bores then took over as the favorite among professional elephant hunters. They counted on their rifles on a daily basis versus a client that may use it for that purpose only once in his life time. DR. Don Heath, ex Zim National Parks and Zim PH, presented some data here from elephant charges recorded by ZNP. I don't remember the exact figures but the 375 H&H didn't stop any, the 416 clan stopped a greater number, the 450 group stopped a still greater percentage and not until you got up to the 50 caliber cartridges did the stopping rate exceed 90%. Hopefully, Don will see this thread and correct my poor memory if needed. 465H&H | |||
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I am not confusing lethality with stopping capabilities, Why do you consider big bore pistols as not a reliable stopper? Wouldn't the shooter be the limiting factor? IMHO a stopping firearm has two major qualities bore diameter and bullet weight, though more importantly then weight is proper bullet construction, velocity is just an added bonus which aids in more momentum. I have a fair understanding of the history of the pre-cordite rifles and as we all know the one limiting factor was bullet construction,not velocity JPK, I highly recommend you take Whitworth up on his offer to shoot some of him big boomers I think you will be surprised. Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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| One of Us |
Velocity and bulletconstruction goes hand-in-hand. The more velocity, the stronger the bulletconstruction is required. From a historical foothold, the late Sir Samuel Baker didn´t like the .577 3,25" express. It created too much velocity for any hard lead bullet to exeed game. However the 3" version with a hardned solid leadbullet killed many elephants in India( some bullets went through). Arthur Neumann killed many african elephants with a succes also with a .577Bpe. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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| one of us |
Bullet construction was a problem, and it still is when all lead bullets are concerned. The most obvious difference between a big bore revolver and a big bore stopping rifle of similar bore diameter is velocity, and its effects on momentum or energy or whatever yardstick you want to choose regarding potential. The next most significant is bullet weight. A 500NE is a stopper with a 570gr bullet at 2050-2100fps. Pushing a lighter bullet slower does not improve a .500 bore's performance it reduces it. The same with a 460 bore. The same with any bore size. For example, a 458Lott/Watts to 458wm, or the 458wm to the 45/70. Conversely, using the same bullets but adding several hundred fps turns a rifle from marginal as hell to a stopping rifle, for example the 45/70 vs. the 458wm, and a good stopping rifle into a better one, 458wm to 458Lott/Watt's. I wrote in my response to Whitworth that I would like to have an opportunity to shoot his big bore revolvers. I hope he invites me to try. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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It is also preferred that you capitalize the first letter of a sentence, and that punctuation go inside the final quotation mark. Also, you have a misplaced modifier, but I'll let you figure out where it is... | |||
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| one of us |
Here you go: The preferred spelling is "figures." It is hard to take seriously a person who spells at a third grade level. Did I pass? JPK Free 500grains | |||
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| One of Us |
With aplomb JPK! ISS is still on grammargirl.com figuring it out... Ok, back on track..nice shooting!! | |||
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| one of us |
Ahhh, the things we do to fill that gap between hunting season and fishing season.... JPK Free 500grains | |||
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One of Us |
My only requirement is that the cartridge contain the words "Nitro Express"! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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| One of Us |
Here is the expert shooting his dangerous game rifle!!! Notice the great control he has. Great for a follow up shot.  The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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Ah Rusty that just eliminates good arguments. Oh wait, no it doesn’t!
So if cordite is the required propellant for a cartridge to be monikered with ‘Nitro Express’, how did the .700 Nitro Express get away with the nomenclature? After all it was designed in 1988 and never loaded with cordite! All rightee… Let the arguments roll! And yes it is a very slow boring day!!! Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Cappy, The 700 NE is the exception that proves the rule!  465H&H | |||
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| One of Us |
H that's no fun!  Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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| one of us |
So your list would include the .400/375 Belted Nitro Express? I am SHOCKED!!! See here info on the 400/375 BELTED Nitro Express!: http://www.kynochammunition.co...ge%20collection.html Nothing like 235grs of bullet at 2400fps producing 2840lb' of ME. Yea, that'll get 'er done! and a BELT too! JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Isn't that what they mean when they speak of free floating a barrel? Mike | |||
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| one of us |
Maybe, but I've never heard of a free floating pistol grip! JPK Free 500grains | |||
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| One of Us |
I've not laughed so hard in a long time... | |||
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| One of Us |
I wonder if the rest of the photo sequence is actually missing? Perhaps in reality he was doing a Chuck Connors Rifleman flip of the rifle? Mike | |||
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Saeed, let's keep it reasonable and accurate if we can. Of course, one cannot simply choose a 577NE and "aim for the head" expecting the elephant to drop, simply by striking it's noggin "somewhere"! Specifically what we are talking about is the very real effect of being able to cause an elephant to turn its charge, knock it down, or possibly even "out" temporarily with a close miss to the brain. As we've discussed before, this phenomenon does't seem to apply to buffalo, strictly elephant. Can an elephant be turned, knocked down, or knocked out with a smaller caliber than .458? Of course it can. A 275 Rigby as Bell used? Probably under some circumstances but I wouldn't know for sure, nor would I want to rely on it in close quarters. But what seems very clear is that as the caliber increases, along with enough momentum to drive the bullet deep enough to affect the brain in this manner, the distance one can "miss" the brain and still get that same effect increases as well; but I'll add that the miss distance will never be extreme, at least not reliably so. Many things can happen such as the bullet fragmenting a portion of bone near the brain cavity, driving that fragment into the organ, or simply just causing a disruption to normal function due to force of blow. Different than actually driving the bullet through the organ with a spot on CNS hit. Regarding some of the other comments, absolutely NO ONE in their right mind would state Saeed doesn't have experience with DG. Obviously he does, and more so than almost all others here, if not more so than ALL outright, but I still have some differences of opinion based on my limited experience to date. I'm very confident with my shooting of big bore rifles; nothing special there other than the fact that I just spend A LOT of time on the range with them and practice often, and for some reason, I'm not particularly sensitive to recoil. Many others on this site are the same in this regard. I mention this simply because to the best of my knowledge, no one, and I do mean NO ONE can be relied upon to hit that elephant's brain EVERY TIME without fail, certainly not myself. There are so many unknowns regarding the myriad of situations one can find themselves in that a perfect 10X can't be relied upon every time. And the good news is that with proper caliber selection, it doesn't have to be. I don't know what the specific distance one can miss the brain by and still achieve the desired result but I'd say it varies by many factors such as angle, bullet construction, caliber and energy, not to mention variables no one has control over. Personally, I like shooting the 500NE because IMO it provides the best trade off in terms of producing this knock down, turn, or knock out effect with weight of rifle and ammo as compared to both lighter and heavier weapons. I don't know how many times I've heard the red herring / straw man comment about using big bores as a way to compensate for other "manly" shortcomings, or that guys who shoot big bores are scared of their quarry, etc. All simply absurd statements and without merit, at least in my case and the other fellows I'm familiar with who hunt DG. Simply stated, I enjoy shooting big bore rifles purely because they are fun ... to me at least. And I like to match different weapons to the desired quarry. I'm not "scared" of elephants but I do have a healthy respect for them that would preclude me from attempting to hunt them at 10 yards or less with a .375. At 50 yards, I'm confident I can hit the brain or take a fatal heart shot with a .375, but when you get into 10 yards or so, unpredictable things happen and happen quickly such as the ele deciding to fight instead of flee, quickly throwing it's head around, making a perfect brain shot most difficult at best. Under that scenario, not only do I just enjoy the 500NE, I have confidence in my ability to get close enough to the brain to save my bacon, if not with the first shot, the quick second shot being a very good life insurance policy. But as stated earlier as well, the 500NE isn't the "perfect DG" rifle for all DG animals. Certainly not for the big bears, leopard, or lion, except possibly for follow up. | |||
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| One of Us |
I agree 100% with Todd on his post. The only possible difference between us is that I have the same amount of confidence in the 465 NE and 470 NE as he has in his 500NE. I don't think either of us is wrong. 465H&H | |||
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| one of us |
A .475/500-grain FN solid at 2150 fps is more than adequate for anything. A .475/500-grain RN solid at 2150 fps is adequate for squirrels. A .375/300-grain FN solid at 2750 fps is more than adequate for anything. Hey! They are all 5000-foot-pounders! What a coincidence!  | |||
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| one of us |
The last one lacks bullet weight! Adequate for killing an ele, not so much for stopping one. Back to the topic, while perusing other posts I ran across this from Buzz Charlton: "We were hunting double tuskless cow with JB . It was a bow hunt. The first day we followed a herd and no opportunity presented itself. The second day we followed a large herd for a couple of hours before catching up to them. There was a single tuskless that we intended to shoot. She was however on the left side of the group as they moved up a gully. We were on the right side, down wind and were stalking parallel with them hoping the tuskless would eventually come to the left side and into bow distance. A tusked cow then spotted us and charged. I shouted her down at about 10 metres and she stopped and ran off, only to turn around and come again. I shouted but it was obvious she was not stopping. At about 5 meters though thick bush, I attempted a frontal brain shot, which failed to stop her. She barely missed me and JB/ trackers. I thought that she had missed us all and when she went down on her knees I thought that she was falling from the shot . She had in fact knocked Luc down and was going down on her knees as she tried to gore him and squash him with her forehead. When she lifted her head slightly I side brained her and she fortunately fell off Luc." I saw the photo of the dead ele, and where the missed frontal entered, his missed brain shot couldn't have been too far off, and it didn't stop the cow. Buzz shoots a 416 Rigby, or at least did circa 2009, when this incident occurred. Also, in addition to reinforcing the notion that the 416 isn't a stopper, the story both reinforces the fact that a hunter ought to be prepared to save his own hide, and the fact that even the very best elephant hunters are not going to make perfect brain shots every time. There are few alive today with more elephant experience than Buzz Charlton. He missed, and his 416 failed to deter the charge. So much for precise efficiency carrying the day. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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| One of Us |
Somewhere there is a picture of Rich sitting. The rifle is suspended in mid air in front of him! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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| one of us |
While looking for the statistical table 465H&H referred to regarding the by the caliber success of hunter stopping charging elephant in Zimbabwe, I ran across the following, from an article by Ganyana, aka, Don Heath which I thought you all might find interesting: The following is from 10 year’s (1987 to 1996) worth of records. The hunting “casualties” include local citizen hunters and professional photographic guides, as well as professional hunters and their clients. The simple, condensed version is interesting: Statistical Realities of African Hunting By Ganyana DANGEROUS GAME May-June 2012 • SUCCESSFUL HUNTER 39 successfulhunter.com • 264 injured, 214 by leopard (81%) • 14 killed, 11 were by elephants (79%) 3 by buffalo. During this period 6,071 elephants were hunted by both local sport hunters and visiting sportsmen, and 8,108 buffalo. From the same period are the following fatalities among rural tribesmen: 103 by elephants; lion, 17; buffalo, 17; rhino, 14; hyena, 47; and hippo, 11. Among National Parks staff involved in elephant and buffalo culls, problem animal control and general duties around dangerous game, the following deaths were recorded: 17 by elephants, 2 by buffalo and 3 by lion. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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one of us |
Rusty, .242 Rimless Nitro Express .26 Rimless Nitro Express .318 Rimless Nitro Express .360 Nitro Express .360 No. 2 Nitro Express .369 Nitro Express .375 Flanged Nitro Express Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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| one of us |
And this, from further down the article: "A PH can bail out a client 99 percent of the time, but we are not God. We make mistakes, we experience bullet failure, and our rifles do occasionally jam." I think 99% might be a little optimistic, but Ganyana has distinct distrust of client hunters, probably well earned, and equally distinct enthusiasm for too many PH's, probably not so well earned. BTW, I read "bullet failure" as "we miss!" JPK Free 500grains | |||
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| One of Us |
Who was the African hunter that said when choosing a rifle caliber suitable for your hunt, lock yourself in a room with the animal and then make your choice. Lets go hypothetical for a minute. If they made soft body armor that could stop ANY projectile and you had to take a bodyshot with it on, what caliber would you choose? If numbers are meaningless, would you pick a 400 grain bullet at 1400fps of a 570 grain at 2150, or maybe a 900 grain at 2300 fps? It seems according to some they would all have the same impact force. It should go without saying, shot placement is everything, along with bullet construction. Now if we could all make perfect shots every time we would have nothing to talk about.  Just saying. | |||
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Sounds good to me Frank!  Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Gee! I must be related to Daniel Boone as I have taken, if I can count correctly, around 16 elephants with the squirrel load. None took more than two rounds including finishers, except for one that needed three. 465H&H. | |||
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It's okay 465, you're still my hero... ISS | |||
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Finally a strike! Catch and release ...  | |||
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Yes! The infamous Jedi rifle hold. The Force is strong with Rich. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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JPK, Sir, I meant no disrespect to anyone here, nor was my post directed at you. Merely an (possibly ill fated )effort to oversimplify the topic, if even possible. Precise, consistent shot placement in the hands of the proficient marksman can take large and dangerous game with small calibers. However, when the designation for a dangerous game cartridge, a big hammer is preferred, providing one can wield it. The biggest one can wield efficiently is the limitation of the shooter. I have witnessed poor marksmanship efficiency by folks with small caliber rifles, Conversely, I have seen some remarkable marksmanship with rifles that could be termed "dangerous game" class. My primary criteria for said cartridge would be the effective application of the shooter. However, if you ask my personal opinion of where the class of cartridge starts, my opinion is that it begin with the number .4. | |||
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RIP, No problem with you here. In fact, thank you for the oppurtunity to get my message across again!  465H&H | |||
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