quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I don't think that any one caliber, bullet weight or velocity is perfect for the wide range of animals that we call "dangerous game". The perfect rifle for leopard, lion or bear is vastly different than the perfect rifle for buffalo, hippo, rhino or elephants. The minimums expressed in the opening post will work well for elephant but are definitely not the best for leopard. Useable?, yes, but perfect?, definitely not.

465H&H

Saeed has it wrong, a relatively light cartridge can stop an animal intent on killing you if the shot is a perfect CNS hit, but there have been references to "stopping rifles" for 120 years since the advent of the 450NE, and for a reason, after decades of use it became obvious that a cartridge similar or more powerful than a 450NE was a reasonably reliable elephant stopper while those of lesser bullet weight, diameter and energy were not.

465H&H has it right. What is a great rifle for an elephant can't be a great rifle for a leopard.

I've settled on the 458wm as my elephant rifle, but would love to try a 500NE. Hippo hunted out of the water would be in the same league, same with rhino.

It's fun shooting buff up close with an express sighted double rifle, but a bolt 375H&H or 416 or 458wm, Lott with a low power scope with about 1x at the low end would all meet the definition of ideal, imo.

All else the 375H&H shines, partly because of it's broad utility.

I know someone who shot a cow elephant in frontal brain shot. He missed the brain, and the cow just shock here head as if nothing has happened.

I personally missed the brain on an elephant bull, he dropped to the ground struggling and I added another shot to the top of his head, killing him.

What was the cartridge, the bullet, the velocity of the round used on the cow? How close was the bullet to the brain? Was the shot a frontal? Was the elephant charging?

Was your missed shot a frontal? Was the elephant charging? Also, when you cut out the bullet in the bull, how close where you to the brain on the missed shot? (I am assuming it was your bullet from your 375/404, correct?)

The great weight of history and the personal experience with thousands of elephants by those I listed and many more provide the incontrovertible conclusion that the larger the bullet diameter, the greater the weight and, to the point of inducing bullet failure, the greater the velocity the more striking effect and the greater the margin for error on frontal shots into elephant heads in stopping a charge.

We mere mortals are imperfect and we are not error free, the evidence of that is also incontrovertible, eh! Pretending that we mere mortals are error free is silly.

Prepare for the worst, train for the best.

JPK

The hunter was using an A-Square rifle in 577 T.Rex. Using A-Square solids.

The bullet apparently never penetrated deep enough to hit the brain.

Mine was the 375/404 and Barnes Brass Solids.

Mine was not charging, and I don't think the other one either.

On another occasion, I shot an elephant bull - frontal brain shot, and my PH was using a 416 Weatherby. He fired as I fired at the brain, intending to go for the heart, shooting through the trunk.

The bull dropped dead at my shot.

His bullet never made it to the elephant's body at all.

It hit the trunk, and turn 90 degrees and went out from the side of the trunk.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


I know someone who shot a cow elephant in frontal brain shot. He missed the brain, and the cow just shock here head as if nothing has happened ...

The hunter was using an A-Square rifle in 577 T.Rex. Using A-Square solids.

The bullet apparently never penetrated deep enough to hit the brain.

Mine was the 375/404 and Barnes Brass Solids.

Mine was not charging, and I don't think the other one either.

On another occasion, I shot an elephant bull - frontal brain shot, and my PH was using a 416 Weatherby. He fired as I fired at the brain, intending to go for the heart, shooting through the trunk.

The bull dropped dead at my shot.

His bullet never made it to the elephant's body at all.

It hit the trunk, and turn 90 degrees and went out from the side of the trunk.

Was that my Long Lost Brother Eric with the 577 Tyrannosaur?

I bet all the errant solids mentioned above were round nose solids.
Some go straight, some change course by 90 degrees or more, in an elephants soft tissue, the trunk!!!
I am expecting one day to hear of a mishap where the hunter fires at an elephant with a RN solid
and it turns 180 degrees and kills the hunter.
But still some cling bitterly to their round nose solids ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


I know someone who shot a cow elephant in frontal brain shot. He missed the brain, and the cow just shock here head as if nothing has happened ...

The hunter was using an A-Square rifle in 577 T.Rex. Using A-Square solids.

The bullet apparently never penetrated deep enough to hit the brain.

Mine was the 375/404 and Barnes Brass Solids.

Mine was not charging, and I don't think the other one either.

On another occasion, I shot an elephant bull - frontal brain shot, and my PH was using a 416 Weatherby. He fired as I fired at the brain, intending to go for the heart, shooting through the trunk.

The bull dropped dead at my shot.

His bullet never made it to the elephant's body at all.

It hit the trunk, and turn 90 degrees and went out from the side of the trunk.

Was that my Long Lost Brother Eric with the 577 Tyrannosaur?

I bet all the errant solids mentioned above were round nose solids.
Some go straight, some change course by 90 degrees or more, in an elephants soft tissue, the trunk!!!
I am expecting one day to hear of a mishap where the hunter fires at an elephant with a RN solid
and it turns 180 degrees and kills the hunter.
But still some cling bitterly to their round nose solids ...

Back around 1999 I witnessed a round nose solid failure on a hippo.

My partner Carl, was using my 375 with Federal solids. He made a shot between the eyes in the water and the Hippo went nuts and the rodeo was on. I thought he had missed the brain but he insisted it was a good shot. Once we recovered the Hippo, we found the round nosed solid between the eyes, underneath the skin resting against the skull, which it failed to penetrate, but it did a good job of pissin off the hippo!

I have also heard, although not witnessed, bullets turning 90 degrees and riding upwards when a shot was attempted through an ele trunk.

I have been using the CEB #13 solids for the past 4 years and have taken my last 3 elephants with that bullet - frontal brain, side brain and shoulder shots. All worked perfectly. It will be used on this years ele as well.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Back around 1999 I witnessed a round nose solid failure on a hippo.

My partner Carl, was using my 375 with Federal solids. He made a shot between the eyes in the water and the Hippo went nuts and the rodeo was on. I thought he had missed the brain but he insisted it was a good shot. Once we recovered the Hippo, we found the round nosed solid between the eyes, underneath the skin resting against the skull, which it failed to penetrate, but it did a good job of pissin off the hippo!

I have also heard, although not witnessed, bullets turning 90 degrees and riding upwards when a shot was attempted through an ele trunk.

I have been using the CEB #13 solids for the past 4 years and have taken my last 3 elephants with that bullet - frontal brain, side brain and shoulder shots. All worked perfectly. It will be used on this years ele as well.

Those Federal bullets that failed...were they of a traditionally roundnosed pattern or sharpedge a la CED solids you had succes with??.
Hope to use this in my .378Wea.
It looks like the flatnose, sharpedge bullets should be able to "grab" better at angled shots.

Hello Jens,

As I stated, the failure occurred circa 1999, some 15 years ago. I do not have any of the original Federal boxes on hand, but I recall that these were "standard" round nosed solids as were available from most bullet makers at that time.

I would highly recommend you give serious consideration to trying the CEB solids. I realize you may have to order them directly from CEB, but you will find them very interested in assisting you, answering questions and providing information.

I have personally used the CEB BBW#13 on ele in 458Lott, 458B&M and 500NE

Good luck

I am not nearly as experienced with elephant as some of the guys here.

I have shot only 2.

Both dropped and were dead with one shot from a .470 NE and 500 grain Northfork FPS. One was neck shot, the other was side brain.

Because of this, I cannot say whether or not the .470 has adequate knock down power, as both were properly hit and would have died from even a .375 H&H.

Given the penetration I have seen in buffalo, I have no concerns about using a .416 rigby either as far as killing an elephant. I have no experience with knock out with this gun either.

The .375 H&H I would want to be a little careful with angle of shot as I don't think it penetrates as well, but it will get a bullet in the brain from either frontal or side positions.

I did have several nights of after sundowners conversations with Ivan Carter on this subject. He noted that a client of his had dramatic improvement in his success with a frontal brain shot by going to the .500 NE.

In essence we had a long argument as I can't see that the extra .026" diameter was going to hit the brain any more often. It turns out after the 3rd day, that his definition of a "successful" frontal brain shot was that the elephant fell down. They still needed a finisher more often than not.

So, in my mind, the .500 has substantially more knock down power than the .470 anecdotally. I am not sure HOW this is true, as to me the .026" and 70 grains are not substantial, but apparently to one of the currently most active elephant hunters in the world, there is a notable difference. Once we got to the point that my definition (dead) and his definition (on the ground) were not the same, we had no more disagreement.

Other PH's I have talked with have pretty much stated for elephant bull, they felt most comfortable with a .416 or bigger caliber rifle for a client, but shooting ability trumped size, and while they liked seeing an experienced man with a .375 more than a guy with a new .460 Weatherby, they knew that they needed to be ready to back up a guy on his first hunt regardless of rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Back around 1999 I witnessed a round nose solid failure on a hippo.

My partner Carl, was using my 375 with Federal solids. He made a shot between the eyes in the water and the Hippo went nuts and the rodeo was on. I thought he had missed the brain but he insisted it was a good shot. Once we recovered the Hippo, we found the round nosed solid between the eyes, underneath the skin resting against the skull, which it failed to penetrate, but it did a good job of pissin off the hippo!

I have also heard, although not witnessed, bullets turning 90 degrees and riding upwards when a shot was attempted through an ele trunk.

I have been using the CEB #13 solids for the past 4 years and have taken my last 3 elephants with that bullet - frontal brain, side brain and shoulder shots. All worked perfectly. It will be used on this years ele as well.

There must be more to the story than what has been given. It is quite common for deer sized cartridges shooting soft nosed bullets to be able to make that shot. We are dealing with, maybe, 1/2" of skin and fat before the skull bone is reached. Any solid should be able to reach the brain on that shot. It is very possible there was a problem with extremely low velocity of that round. Was the bullet intact when found?

465H&H

quote:

I am expecting one day to hear of a mishap where the hunter fires at an elephant with a RN solid
and it turns 180 degrees and kills the hunter.
But still some cling bitterly to their round nose solids ...

I found this in an older article about penetration of solids..... It comes up way short in most areas, I don't know the author, and I don't know the source of this info or who, what or even when, but with the statement by RIP above I thought it was interesting to say the least......

quote:

Years ago, as big game hunting reports on bullet failure with copper jacketed, lead core, FMJ bullets tarted coming in, it became evident that bending, breaking up and flattening of the bullet shank (acting as a rudder), were real problems. Example: A hunter using a 375HH with a 300 grain FMJ copper jacketed, lead core bullet shot a buffalo in the shoulder, the bullet entered the animal, struck the shoulder blade, and bent 90 degrees along with flattening the shank. The bullet with this rudder-shaped shank made a 180 degree turn, editing the buffalo on the same side it entered. The bullet flew back and struck the hunter in the shin breaking his leg, leaving the PH to finish the job for the hunter.

I actually had a Round Nose FMJ turn in a target and fly back and stick in my stomach one time !!!!! Yes, my hand to jesus it is the truth! Many years ago I was out doing some speed drills with a Browning Hi Power, 9mm, shooting 9mm ball ammo. Targets were hanging steel targets and I was a little close for this drill, 5 yards. Also the targets had some divets in them as well. During the drill one of those 9mm FMJ round nose bullets must have hit on of those divets and came straight back to me, it burned through my T'Shirt, and buried itself in the fat just below my belly button. It was burning like hell, snatched up my t'shirt, and pulled it out of my stomach, bullet was still very hot, so I ended up dropping it, and ran for some first aid! Still have a small scar there...... Its no wonder I hate damned Round Nose bullets............. HEH HEH....................


Michael

Meanwhile back on the farm !

Coming to a store near you ! MAGIC BULLETS! for MAGIC AFRICAN ELEPHANT!

Ladies and gentlemen ! AR proudly presents Magic bullets that have the ability to bounce off a elephant and come straight back at you ! These bullets have the ability to kill at both ends and for those who wish to shoot two of these magic elephant standing side by side these bullets will penetrate the elephant, do a 90 degree turn and actually kill the one standing beside it. !
Amazing !

As to the actual "RN FMJ turn in the target" and sticking in a stomach.

In the rest of the world that is called a ricochet, the bullet did not "turn in the target" it literally bounced off the target back at the shooter. Big fricken difference !

And btw it is not just RN's that will do this , all shapes under the right conditions will do this !

I am sure you all have seen the video of the 50 cal round ricocheting off a steel target several hundred yards down range, bouncing back and striking the shooter hard enough to cause bleeding and a wound apparently sufficient to require hospitalization.

That one was a spitzer.

Copper washed lead bullets are not RN solids, btw.

Also, that 1999 Federal that allegedly failed to penetrate the hippo's skull was more than likely a flat nose solid, aka TBBC solid.

JPK

JPK

Absolutely ! Ricochets off Steel, Glass and Water all within the realm of realistic behaviour of projectiles. Anyone who has ever shot at steel plates especially ones that are suspended or sprung will attest to the dangers of these ricochets ( hence the mandatory wearing of safety glasses on "combat" ranges.

But really to try and sell a story of a 375 impacting and penetrating a buffalo, then doing an about turn on the "shoulder blade and then having enough horsepower to come back and bite the shooter and break his tibia..... This borders on the realm of magic !

These are the very same people that claim that a 375 does not have enough horses to go through big game ?

They must explain how this could be true or even possible ?

Even if you were to place a steel plate inside the buffalo a ricochet having enough residual energy after impaction and deformation is going to be difficult to imagine.

Just for one minute ponder the problem at hand.

The bullet penetrates skin and muscle, now deforms and then low and behold richochets off the scapula bone...... it does not have enough juice to penetrate the scapula ( which indently has very little inherent strength, now bounces back and has enough horsepower to penetrate skin and fracture a human adult tibia.......

If one were to apply a simple energy or even momentum equation on this scenario that bullet will have run out of steam long before even doing what is claimed.

Hmmmm methinks I smell bullshit on this one.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Plus one, ditto.
way to work them!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Plus one, ditto.
way to work them!

I'm thinking the hook was set firmly into the gills on that "strike". No catch and release this time!

I have to say that I am extremely disappointed in those on this thread that are playing games with a very serious issue to most of us. In the past, I have always taken what those posters have reported as being true. You all may think that your baiting is funny but what you have done is completely ruined your credibility with me and I suspect many others.

465H&H

Good one, Todd.
Is that just Rip and michael458 that have "completely ruined their credibility" with member 465H&H or is Todd Williams tainted too? Fishy?

quote:

I have to say that I am extremely disappointed in those on this thread that are playing games with a very serious issue to most of us. In the past, I have always taken what those posters have reported as being true. You all may think that your baiting is funny but what you have done is completely ruined your credibility with me and I suspect many others.

465H&H

What a joke...... I think its your credibility and others that actually come into question. To begin with, I reported a piece in an article I found some time ago...

I did not write it, fellows name is Bradly Hunt, whoever he is....... I do not know him, never heard of him. He states no source for this... And if any of the 3 amigos could read and comprehend......... You would see what I said before the statement was quoted.......... And you will see where I SAID it came up very short in most areas.... I did not state it as a reported case or anything else......... But you guys can sure take it and run with it......

quote:

I found this in an older article about penetration of solids..... It comes up way short in most areas, I don't know the author, and I don't know the source of this info or who, what or even when, but with the statement by RIP above I thought it was interesting to say the least......

Fact of the matter is this, and you know it, RIP and Saeed posted what they did about the round nose veering off course, RIP made a nice little joke about it... And that was at 10 AM yesterday... Not a word........Nothing Within 4 hours of my post here come the "Calvary" riding in hard, just like I knew they would............ Yet none of the 3 of you had a word to say about the other posts........ Remember the after RIPs post.......... Waiting Waiting......

LOL........

And by the way, the Round Nose FMJ 9mm is true, that is my story, have the scars to prove it... But it is totally irrelevant to anything concerning this thread or even bullet tech or behavior...... It's a f**King story is all, some jest you might say......... And ALF.... I have shot more steel on "Combat" ranges than all the bullets you every shot in your entire life, I wear my Safety Shooting Glasses..... In fact, this little incident was on my range.... You see, I have been involved in many many areas of shooting..... I thought it was a funny little story myself, but damn ya'll take yourselves so serious..... First, I should have not been shooting FMJ at 5 yards, 7 would be better, steel had divets in it, should have been replaced, not copper wash, real FMJ... One thing I can say, if one considered myself dangerous game, then a 9mm FMJ is a stopping bullet, cause it stopped me from what I was doing........

You people are so predictable as to your response, especially when it involves me or something I post............ Really it seems to me you could find something to do other than worry about what I have to say????? Go shoot something, have some fun..... Do some test work... Something.....



Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I have to say that I am extremely disappointed in those on this thread that are playing games with a very serious issue to most of us. In the past, I have always taken what those posters have reported as being true. You all may think that your baiting is funny but what you have done is completely ruined your credibility with me and I suspect many others.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Good one, Todd.
Is that just Rip and michael458 that have "completely ruined their credibility" with member 465H&H or is Todd Williams tainted too? Fishy?

RIP, do you think we had any credibility with the 3 amigos to begin with?

Todd, careful who you hang out with, me and RIP might taint you as well........ LOL...........

I think it exposes folks for what they are and their agenda if you want to know the truth.......

Honestly, I think its a little funny.............

"The Three Amigos."

Michael,

What makes you think I was talking about you? Are you being a little sensitive? In fact, I have stated several times on here that I believe what you post on your testing results are your honest evaluations. When we have differed it has been on how to interpret those results to the real world. To others, if the shoe fits wear it!

465H&H

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter: Excerpted
My partner Carl, was using my 375 with Federal solids. He made a shot between the eyes in the water and the Hippo went nuts and the rodeo was on. I thought he had missed the brain but he insisted it was a good shot. Once we recovered the Hippo, we found the round nosed solid between the eyes, underneath the skin resting against the skull, which it failed to penetrate, but it did a good job of pissin off the hippo!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK: Excerpted
Also, that 1999 Federal that allegedly failed to penetrate the hippo's skull was more than likely a flat nose solid, aka TBBC solid.

The poster specifically stated a RN solid was recovered. I seriously doubt that a FN solid would turn into a RN solid after impacting an elephant skull though the inverse may happen.

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael458: Excerpted
Many years ago I was out doing some speed drills with a Browning Hi Power, 9mm, shooting 9mm ball ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK: Excerpted
Copper washed lead bullets are not RN solids, btw.

Are you saying that all 9mm ball ammunition regardless of manufacturer or manufacturing date is copper washed lead rather than cup and core?
I can truthfully state that the last 9mm ball ammo that I used in the early 1970’s – both US and foreign military surplus – appeared to have the jacket crimped into the base of the lead core on those bullets that we pulled. I used them for practice for a few months at an outdoor range in my M39 S&W.

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I have to say that I am extremely disappointed in those on this thread that are playing games with a very serious issue to most of us. In the past, I have always taken what those posters have reported as being true. You all may think that your baiting is funny but what you have done is completely ruined your credibility with me and I suspect many others.

465H&H

Jens,
Hopefully you received sufficient .500 and + cartridge recommendations before things succumbed to other discussions.

H,
Your comments throughout the past 6+ years have remained cordial throughout the many ‘RN vs FN Solid’ and ‘.375 caliber & BB’ discussions; it is appreciated.

Michael, Ron, Todd...

Michael

so does the 9mm now qualify as a stopping round-?

465H&H-

Once again, I find your pompous reply condescending and insulting. If I need a lesson on Hippo physiology, it won't be from you. Have you ever killed a Hippo? I seem to recall you haven't. How about Lion? Croc? I have killed a few, so please, no more BS comments on my posts.

What I stated is what happened. When I use the term "witnessed" in a sentence, you may presume I mean exactly what the dictionary definition states. I cannot explain why it happened and neither can anyone else, including you. The round nosed solid was recovered whole, in my presence, and given to Carl. Federal Ammunition was consulted but as usually occurs when there is a bullet failure, they essentially had no comment.

JPK-

As I stated, it was a Federal round nose that failed. I was there. It was my rifle, shooting ammo I had purchased. Nothing is "alleged", it is fact. See above reply to 465H&H. It was not a TBBC. As a matter of reference, Federal had more than one .375H&H solid load circa 1997/98/99.

I guess I must join the Three Amigos posse now. Michael and Todd are "mi amigos" already anyway. Ole'

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
Michael

so does the 9mm now qualify as a stopping round-?

My favorite 9mm quote:

"9mm? If I want to get someone angry, I'll just insult them ..."

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
465H&H-

Once again, I find your pompous reply condescending and insulting. If I need a lesson on Hippo physiology, it won't be from you. Have you ever killed a Hippo? I seem to recall you haven't. How about Lion? Croc? I have killed a few, so please, no more BS comments on my posts.

What I stated is what happened. When I use the term "witnessed" in a sentence, you may presume I mean exactly what the dictionary definition states. I cannot explain why it happened and neither can anyone else, including you. The round nosed solid was recovered whole, in my presence, and given to Carl. Federal Ammunition was consulted but as usually occurs when there is a bullet failure, they essentially had no comment.

JPK-

As I stated, it was a Federal round nose that failed. I was there. It was my rifle, shooting ammo I had purchased. Nothing is "alleged", it is fact. See above reply to 465H&H. It was not a TBBC. As a matter of reference, Federal had more than one .375H&H solid load circa 1997/98/99.

I guess I must join the Three Amigos posse now. Michael and Todd are "mi amigos" already anyway. Ole'

Lion Hunter,

If you read my above post you will plainly see that I did not question your report didn't accurately portray what you saw. I have no reason to believe your report was anything but accurate.

You will also notice that the post wasn't directed to you but was a general comment on the incident that you reported for the others reading this thread. When I direct a comment directly to someone, I always list their name at the beginning of my comments, as I have done in this case, otherwise my comments are directed at the general readership.


I did state that I thought there was more to it and you have confirmed that opinion by saying you can't explain why the bullet failed to penetrate. I simply gave the opinion that lack of velocity may be one possibility.

I made no comments on hippo physiology. My comments on hippo anatomy were directed at those reading this thread that may not be familiar with hippo anatomy. I assumed that if you were at the bullet recovery you probably had at least a rudimentary knowledge of hippo head anatomy.

You are correct that I have never killed a hippo myself. But that doesn't mean I haven't been at a hippo recovery or studied hippo anatomy. In fact, I have Bachelors and advanced degrees in zoology and wildlife biology so make it a habit to learn the anatomy of all dangerous game and many pg species.

Since I wasn't directing my comments directly at you, how was I being pompous and condescending? I think if you reread my post you will see that you were wrong in that assumption.

Cappy,

Thank you for your kind comment. Sometimes people will respond to me in a very discourteous fashion and I have to bite my lip and calm down before I answer or risk saying something that I will regret later. I can only hope that others will respond courteously and when they disagree with me they do it factually and in a gentlemanly manner.

465H&H

Michael,

You are more than a little paranoid and way too much of your life revolves around these entertaining but irrelevant discussions here rather than living life.

Christ, timing the responses to your posts? Get a life dude.

This amigo was out of town shooting driven pheasants and so was enjoying life. And once fishing season is here I'll all but disappear once again...

Capoward, perhaps what Michael was shooting was steel jacketed, but most of the stuff labeled ball ammo that I have shot has been copper washed hard lead RN. In fact this afternoon my son and I shot 250 rounds of 9mm ammo labeled ball ammo that was copper washed lead RN. We also shot a bunch of 5.56 labeled ball ammo which was lead cored copper, without the extras of the M855 rounds.

LionHunter, I didn't realize you were there at the hippo when the bullet was recovered. If you say it failed to penetrate and it was steel jacketed RN, that is enough for me, but I took it as a second hand report. So few actually dig for bullets or look closely at what the bullet actually did that I pretty much discount second hand reports if the source is unknown. I still have some Federals with Woodleigh steel jacketed RN bullets, though in 458wm, so good chance if it was a RN it was a Woodleigh. If it didn't penetrate a hippo skull it wasn't because of the Woodleigh.

JPK

Jim, you beat me to it!

Where there is smoke there is fire, or Michael, RIP or Todd!

I was getting fed up reading page 2 but hung in there! Glad I did - worth the laugh!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael, Ron, Todd...

The criteria for a true DG cartridge is

1 For a PH - back up stopping power - 500 cal with 570 gr premium bullets. If you are Mark Sullivan it is a 600 NE. If you are PH Capstik it is a 470 NE
2 For Michael - B&M bolt Winchester action with CEB bullet - in any caliber above .400. Barrel MUST be 18". Any longer and velocity actually drops!
3 For Todd - 577 NE with 750 gr CEBs. But it must be videoed with rapid loading competition. Or it don't count!
4 For RIP - 416 Rigby shooting 400 gr bullets at 2650 fps or anything else that his last patient rubbished!
5 For me - 416 Rigby 325 to 350 gr monometal HP bullet at 2700 fps because that is the only DG rifle I have and I find the 2850 fps load too lively to shoot accurately.

Do I get honorable mention with my 550 Gibbs? 615gr mono-metal at 2600fps...

Rich

Don't mind lh too much. He has been everywhere, on multiple occasions, done everything multiple times with amazing results, other than this hippo incident where jealous underachievers probably sabotaged his hippo ammunition to besmirch his reputation, which is second only to mark sullivans'.

We here are not worthy to sit in his presence.

Rich

PS: either that or he is the second, to mark sullivan, most pompous ass on the planet.
That is just my humble opinion, but it is increasingly shared amongst the membership here.

Hi Ashok,

There are individuals on the AR forums that are very opinionated and some can get a bit touchy if another individual is just as steadfast with an opposite opinion.

Michael, Ron, and Todd are good friends and I poke them on occasion, especially Michael and Ron. But I always do so all in good humor as friends do.

Nicely put, Naki.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
The criteria for a true DG cartridge is

1 For a PH - back up stopping power - 500 cal with 570 gr premium bullets. If you are Mark Sullivan it is a 600 NE. If you are PH Capstik it is a 470 NE
2 For Michael - B&M bolt Winchester action with CEB bullet - in any caliber above .400. Barrel MUST be 18". Any longer and velocity actually drops!
3 For Todd - 577 NE with 750 gr CEBs. But it must be videoed with rapid loading competition. Or it don't count!
4 For RIP - 416 Rigby shooting 400 gr bullets at 2650 fps or anything else that his last patient rubbished!
5 For me - 416 Rigby 325 to 350 gr monometal HP bullet at 2700 fps because that is the only DG rifle I have and I find the 2850 fps load too lively to shoot accurately.

To which we can add:
6. Rich - 550 Gibbs, 615gr mono-metal at 2600fps, over 9000 ftlbs. ...
7. Tanzan - 416 Rigby, shooting 350 grain at 2825fps, because the loaded cartridge feels good in the palm of the hand.
8. his wife - 375 Ruger in a 20" barrel, because her husband (Tanzan) should be carrying a matching 500 Kichaa (Swahili: "crazy". - aka. 500 AccRel Nyati)
9. Saeed - anything he wants, as long as it is .375", 300 grain monometal, at 2800fps or more.

-

bottom line is that a wise hunter adapts the hunting style to whatever tool he has. If a rock, then one digs a pit, if a 223, then one waits for a rock steady, close shot into the ear canal, first turning a boattail bullet into a flatnose reversed solid.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
Michael

so does the 9mm now qualify as a stopping round-?

HEH..... It stopped me..... From doing what I was doing anyway.....

Hey Rich-

Like I told you last week in my reply to your unsolicited PM, put down the scotch before you post. And you can't help it if you will never have the opportunities I have in Africa, but it is so unbecoming to let your envy and jealously seep into your posts; particularly bad form from a former Ranger. And a Ranger who cannot hold onto his rifle should not presume to speak for the "membership." I find them totally capable of speaking for themselves, and most manage to hold onto their rifles when discharging them. And what's with the MS reference? Oh, sorry, I know, more scotch, jealousy and envy. Damn, were you really a Ranger? Glass houses, Rich, glass houses!

And as for your buddy 465H&H , to him I say that if you are quoting a post of mine in the manner you have then I will continue to construe your comments as personal and directed at me. I have no desire to get into a pissing contest with you, but please, I hold at least as many undergraduate and graduate degrees, as well as teaching credentials, as you felt necessary to cite in your reply. And I have certainly taken a much wider bag of trophies from more sub-Saharan african countries than you have.

Walt, you have a real tendency to post rather confrontational messages, just as you did in a post you started a few years ago regarding Carl's Lion when it was shown on TAA. You improperly stated the circumstances of that Lion and made the accusation that it was taken from a pride. You stated that as fact. However you were wrong again and there were many AR members who also saw the TAA episode who knew you were wrong. You couldn't even count the number of lions correctly. Once again, I was present and participated in the follow-up of that Lion, who we found dead some 30 yards from the bait tree. And yet still, after I posted a factual description of what actually happened, you insisted there were 3 lioness which you had seen. There was only one lioness and that's all everyone else saw. Maybe you share your friend Rich's affinity for Scotch?

There are other incidents as well, where Walt knows best, even when he is flat out factually wrong. But who's counting?

quote:

My favorite 9mm quote:

"9mm? If I want to get someone angry, I'll just insult them ..."

Regards,

Chuck

I like that.... Some of these same sort of discussions run around handgun circles, I am not much of a 9 fan, much prefer 45 of course, but thing is
I never see anyone willing to go downrange and catch a few 9s??? HEH......

quote:

2 For Michael - B&M bolt Winchester action with CEB bullet - in any caliber above .400. Barrel MUST be 18". Any longer and velocity actually drops!

HEH.... Naki, pretty good..... I think however lets change up on the .400.. lets start that dance at .458 and go up.. And you can add some North Forks to that too..... The new Nose Profile of the solids is superb to say the least....


Reading comprehension is still a major issue here......

I said;

quote:

I actually had a Round Nose FMJ----9mm FMJ round nose bullets [QUOTE]


THEY SAID;

[QUOTE] Copper washed lead bullets are not RN solids, btw.

And then they said;

quote:

perhaps what Michael was shooting was steel jacketed

I know the difference in "copper washed" and FMJ.... and "Steel Jacketed"... No, I never said I was shooting steel jacketed 9mm...
Fact is, a copper washed lead would have smashed itself into pieces against steel targets... Steel plates.... Pieces might have returned to shooter as they often do, but not the whole bullet... Shooting steel targets with Copper FMJ handgun rounds.... Not "Steel Jacketed Bullets"

quote:

Christ, timing the responses to your posts? Get a life dude.

Yeah right, sitting there with a stop watch just waiting......


You know, that the date and time is posted on each post don't you?? Something like this......

quote:

posted Feb 23, 2014 11:21 PM

Ya'll have fun, this has run its course........... I am outta here, on to better things................

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Nicely put, Naki.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
The criteria for a true DG cartridge is

1 For a PH - back up stopping power - 500 cal with 570 gr premium bullets. If you are Mark Sullivan it is a 600 NE. If you are PH Capstik it is a 470 NE
2 For Michael - B&M bolt Winchester action with CEB bullet - in any caliber above .400. Barrel MUST be 18". Any longer and velocity actually drops!
3 For Todd - 577 NE with 750 gr CEBs. But it must be videoed with rapid loading competition. Or it don't count!
4 For RIP - 416 Rigby shooting 400 gr bullets at 2650 fps or anything else that his last patient rubbished!
5 For me - 416 Rigby 325 to 350 gr monometal HP bullet at 2700 fps because that is the only DG rifle I have and I find the 2850 fps load too lively to shoot accurately.

To which we can add:
6. Rich - 550 Gibbs, 615gr mono-metal at 2600fps, over 9000 ftlbs. ...
7. Tanzan - 416 Rigby, shooting 350 grain at 2825fps, because the loaded cartridge feels good in the palm of the hand.
8. his wife - 375 Ruger in a 20" barrel, because her husband (Tanzan) should be carrying a matching 500 Kichaa (Swahili: "crazy". - aka. 500 AccRel Nyati)
9. Saeed - anything he wants, as long as it is .375", 300 grain monometal, at 2800fps or more.

-

bottom line is that a wise hunter adapts the hunting style to whatever tool he has. If a rock, then one digs a pit, if a 223, then one waits for a rock steady, close shot into the ear canal, first turning a boattail bullet into a flatnose reversed solid.

don't forget the 416 B&M---