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One of Us |
  Damn, that's just so funny I really don't know where to begin!! But JPK's statement of making a "3 pointer for the other team" is pretty much spot on!  | |||
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Seasons, For the most part, I'm in agreement with you on the issue of energy and the fact that the bullet doing it's work is the real killer. But in the case of head shots to elephant at least, there IS something to be said for driving a big heavy bullet near the ele's brain and achieving a temporary "knock out" or at least causing enough pain to turn the beast. Decidedly, this seems NOT to be the case with buffalo, but is with elephant. The only thing I can think of is that energy IS being transferred enough to cause shock to the brain, but not in the same way we used to think of hydrostatic shock of a fast moving projectile in the chest cavity. Numerous guys here have attempted to describe what's actually happening in the case of the close brain miss with eles but I don't think it's been adequately described just yet! Your statement on big bore pistols and their killing power is certainly dancing with this same concept. What is your opinion if not energy transfer? And again, speaking of the ability to stop/knock out an elephant with a close brain miss, not speaking of hitting the CNS directly as that effect is obvious. | |||
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| One of Us |
In my opinion, it depends entirely on whether you are a sport hunter, with a PH, or the PH. I love the 9mm's and .375's, but I wouldn't use them for buffalo or elephant. I prefer a .416. But I wouldn't use a .416 if I was a PH and needed a stopper. | |||
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Michael, Sounds like the 250 Socom will shoot minute of anything alongside the 450 solid and 420 Raptor at 50 yards. Certainly close enough for DG. If that holds then I may not be changing optics. The pic of your hippo reminds me - you were supposed to provide the measurements of his teeth. He certainly looks to qualify as a very large trophy. If I recall, the rule is ⅓ out and ⅔ inside, in which case he is a monster! I make his R tooth to be in the vicinity of 14". Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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| one of us |
If big bore pistols or revolvers had the energy of a big bore rifle no one would be carrying 11lb rifles in the heat through thick bush on tracks for four or six hours a day and we would be discussing stopping pistols and revolvers, not stopping rifles. It is bullet diameter, weight and velocity which add up to whether a rifle is a stopping rifle or not. The tried and true formula applies, whether revolver, pistol or rifle, .458" bore or better, 480gr or better, about 2,100fps velocity or better and about 5,000lbs' of energy or better (which is merely a function of bullet weight and velocity.) Some believe the 416 Rigby got there with lighter but much faster bullets, those PH's I know who shoot the 416 are satisfied with them but wish they had more rifle. (And obviously, if the 416 Rigby got there, then it does today along with the 416 Remington and the 404 Jeffrey loaded to modern specs. ) JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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I have read the argument that we can rely on the PH. Really? Really? He is just a man and as fallible as any of us mere mortals. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Matt.... Not the Muzzle Energy "DEBATE" again please................ I don't buy into muzzle energy.......... What I do buy into is transfer of trauma to target. One might refer to as a "transfer of Energy" to target, but I have been taken to task for that as well...... If Muzzle Energy alone, By Itself, all alone with no other factors considered...... Was the case, then a fast speedy small caliber bullet that can produce enough muzzle energy would be just as effective as a big bore with the same muzzle energy..... Fact of matter, it is NOT. I think many other factors TRUMP MUZZLE ENERGY............ One might be the design of a particular bullet and how it transfers trauma to target......... I am a hard and firm believer in "Caliber"........ On buffalo, elephant, hippo and every other species including thin skinned non dangerous game to thin skinned dangerous game, in all cases, I have seen caliber alone make a hell of a difference. For me caliber starts at 458 and goes to .510, bigger ain't bad, but rifles tend to get bigger than I am willing to carry around. I believe Caliber and Bullet design trump muzzle energy, so much so that I never even pay attention or even know what my cartridges produce in muzzle energy................... If one chooses to believe in muzzle energy, that is fine with me, I really don't care one way or the other. Not something I even care to argue about... http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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How can you possibly make that first statement? Where was the parallel test with a 'lessor rifle? Bell standing in the same position with his 7mm Rigby would most likley have pulled of a brain shot with 100% certainty, Saaed probably the same with his 375/404, Atkinson with one of his 40cals, 375 or 9.3 would have and I with my 404 would likely have had as good a chance as you in pulling off a brain shot and dropping the animal DRT. All four of use could well have stopped and turned the animal had we missed the brain. You missed the brain and took more shots to finally anchor the animal, sure the animal stopped but there was absolutely nothing scientific about that scenario in terms of a big bore versus a lessor rifle, there just wasn't a competent shot with a lessor rifle there to compare!!! | |||
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Mike The 250 Socom is impressive....... Of course I would not recommend it for hippo or buffalo, just so happens I did take one of each with this bullet, but not what I would carry purposely for either, 420 Raptor is a far far better choice for either, using a trauma inflicting bullet. I still rather have solids for hippo, 450#13 or new North Fork 450s... As for POI, should not be an issue. I remember the old days of struggling like hell, 100s of rounds downrange to attempt to get two conventional bullets to shoot close at 50 yards.... Example, 450 Swift and 450 Barnes Banded solids, could be a mission........ Or any 416 conventionals, softs/solids...... It was hit and miss, and lucky to get the two shooting within an inch one way or the other........ When developing the #13 HPs, I had a feeling that bearing surface and length of bullet had more to do with POI than weight did...... So right from the start I told Dan to make the HP from the exact same bullet as the solid, just had an HP instead of a 67% flat meplat. It worked, every caliber, every combination. For instance, take the .458 450 #13 Solid and its matching HP the 420 #13 HP.... Same bullet, one solid, one HP, same bearing surface, same length. In every single case where I used the exact same powder and load, these two were in the same hole at 50 yards. However, since weight is a factor of actual pressure, one can increase the velocity of the HP with 1-2 grs more powder to equal pressure of the Solids. With the exact same load, the HP is normally not much more velocity than the Solid, from 25-40 fps as a rule of thumb. However, because the same load with the HP produces from 5000-8000 PSI less pressure, we can increase the velocity of the HP on average 100 fps as a rule of thumb, over the solids velocity. This does change POI. In every case I have worked with, and it has been 1000s of rounds, the HP will shoot from 1/2 inch to 1 inch higher than the solid at 50 yards with increased velocity, but is almost always exactly the same windage, it is not further right or left than the solid. So what has been a great combo for me is with the Solid dead center 50 yards, and the HP falling slightly higher. The HPs LOVE VELOCITY, more the better and as you know are rather wicked in their transfer of trauma to target......... As for the 250 Socom falling in line with this same POI, it has on two rifles of mine. Whether it will with others I don't know for sure, but we will take a look at that...... It should, or it should be close enough not to matter...... As you know, there are two 250 gr .458 NonCons, the #13 and the Socom. I asked for the #13 HPs, and tested those pretty well here before leaving. And, I think you used the #13 with Beau on the last safari last year for zebra and such. Dan and crew came up with the 250 Socom just before I left last June. I asked for some, they quickly sent a 100 or so I think. I already had the rifle sighted with the 250#13s, 420 Raptors and 450 #13 Solids. Same load with the 250 Socom, they were in the same hole as the 250#13s, so no issues there. I only had time to do terminals on 2 of the Socoms, and I found that the 250 Socoms I did test penetrated 2 inches deeper in the test medium than the 250 #13s..... Well, at the time, it was a different batch of test medium, and I decided that 2 inches was not enough to make note of at the time....... I shot the first 3 larger animals, zebra, wildebeest, and oryx with the 250#13s at 2900 fps, and in every case, it was DRT, never took a step, other than the zebra, he managed to get back on his feet, and turn around before going down, he could not get it put together to run....... Zebra was a frontal shot that busted the heart all to pieces, literally. So that bullet was obviously recovered. The oryx was more angled, bullet traveled over 24 inches and hit front shoulder, that bullet was recovered. The wildebeest was more of a broadside, and that bullet was recovered as well...... OK, good results from a 250 gr .458 caliber bullet of course..... So I also had 25 or so 250 Socoms loaded, so I went to those bullets. Zebra and Wildebeast the 250 Socoms were passing completely through broadside? I shot another wildebeest, rather long for me, estimated 150 yards or so. In a group, this one was angling to me, would have been point of right shoulder shot. A millisecond before the shot this wildebeest dropped down (to run), my shot missed completely, and hit the one directly behind this one, but the bullet took him square in the middle, GUT SHOT..... Oh boy, here we go, already dusky dark I figured we had a mess. Followup took about 5 minutes. The wildebeest was so sick, so destroyed inside, that we caught him humped up slowly walking only about a 100 yards from where he took the shot. It was basically catch up to him, put one through the shoulders and end of story..... It takes a lot of damage for a gut shot wildebeest to stop in that short of time frame. This bullet also passed completely through. At this point I was convinced that the extra 2 inches of penetration of the 250 Socom over the 250#13 in the test work before hand was proving itself out in the field as well..... The only two 250 Socoms recovered was the one from the cow buffalo, found in the hide far side from a purposely taken lung shot behind the shoulder, and the one from the hippo brain shot, this one found just behind the skull, brain cavity..... Still, incredible results with a 250 gr .458 caliber bullet........ One gun safari? Yep, I reckon that is about as good as one can possibly do. Although I rather have two guns regardless.... As for the hippo teeth, I have not heard... Suppose I will find out when they arrive..... I have a few sets of normal hippos shot in the past, good for comparison, and I really don't know about what would qualify as extra large or long.... I know from the looks of all of them, I don't want any of them biting me!!!!!!!! HEH....... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Even Bell had big bore rifles for heavy brush and close hunting. PH David Sheepers, after failing to stop with a 375H&H an elephant which almost killed him, "On the way [to the hospital via MARS] I had time to reflect on what my friend Ian Nychens had written in his excellent historical book, Months of the Sun, 'Do not enter bush conditions with rifles under the .450 class...'" Ian Nychens, Footsteps of an Ivory Hunter, p.90 Pondoro Taylor, Harland paraphrasing, "use the most powerful rifle that can be handled comfortably." Richard Harland, Ndlovu, p.69 Richard Harland, on the 375H&H, "A well fitted 375H&H, neither unduly weighty nor possessed of great recoil, can be an excellent choice for Mrs. Elephant Hunter." p.69 On the 450NE class [he was an ardent fan of the 458wm,] "The most used rifles carried by sportsmen AND IVORY HUNTERS over the last 100 years [emphasis added] are those in the .450-.470 group, both bolt action and double barrellled. The yardstick is a bullet of 480-500gr at muzzle velocity between 2100 and 2300fps. The result is indisputable elephant-felling power." [Note Harland's choice of words, "felling power," and not killing power.] p.75 Harland on the elephants in Zimbabwe's SE lowveld, "There is no doubt in my mind that for every hundred I shot, a higher percentage were downed by frontal brain shots while attacking than has occurred in any other areas one would care to mention. 'Karamojo' Bell would have lasted one or two of these skirmishes, if he was lucky, before scuttling back to camp for his big bore." p.101 I could go on and on with quotes from elephant hunters who have or had extensive experience elephant hunting. On the fantasy of perfect shooting, an incident involving Andrew Dawson and Paul Smith, owners of Chifuti Safaris and both very experienced PH's, who stopped a charging bull, but missed the brain shot, as related b Harland, "Now on those frontal brain shots. When Andrew and Paul both fired as the charging bull rounded the tree, Paul's shot hit the side of the tree and deflected away. Andrew's 470 bullet hit the face below the the eye level, going into the hard bone of the left tusk socket, passed through the tusk and stopped in the bone at the back of the socket. The second round of shots had the following results: Paul's .500 bullet went through the right tusk socket, through the tusk and stopped in the hard bone at the rear of the socket; Andrew's shot did exactly the same just a few inches from Paul's!" p.187 I have had a conversation with Roger Whittall about brain shot hits vs. misses, he confessed to many misses in his long career and confessed on behalf of his former partner, Barry Duckworth, who, like Harland, was a game ranger and elephant culler. With Harland relying at times on the power of his 458wm to stop or drop elephants, Duckworth - also a 458wm fan - doing the same, Whittall a 465H&H fan doing the same, Dawson, a 470NE fan doing the same, Smith a 500NE fan doing the same, reinforced by the advice of some of the great elephant hunters of all time, it appears foolish to claim that using a legal medium bore rifle is wiser than using a big bore stopping rifle, eh? And it would appear that relying on your own perfect shot, as none of Nachyens, Harland, Taylor, Duckworth, Whittall, Dawson or Smith did or that of your PH is also rather foolish, eh? JPK Free 500grains | |||
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So, if one is planning a Lion, Leopard, Elephant and Buffalo hunt in 2016, the .375 H&H is not good enough?  | |||
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It is legal and will do the job, and it is close to ideal for everything but the elephant, imo. If the proverbial s--t hits the fan you have no margin for imperfection with a 375H&H and may have to rely on your PH, especially if hunting a tuskless cow. [Bulls when frightened or encountered close almost always - but not always! - run away, with cows the percentage that will come is much, much greater.] Personally, I don't relish the thought of my life and my family's well being relying on a fellow imperfect human being who I might have known for a mere couple of days. I bring a 375H&H as my second rifle. FWIW, I would never go on a safari without two guns, each at least legal for the largest game to be hunted in case your primary or favorite rifle has an issue, gets run over, gets dropped and breaks the stock, etc., etc., etc. But, I'm lefty, and lefty guns are rare as hen's teeth in the bush. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Lefty here as well. I know your pain. Any time I order a gun it takes 6+ months, and choices are very limited. | |||
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I would argue that many don't carry them and use them because they are a lot harder to master than a big-bore rifle. MUCH harder. I would also add that big-bore revolvers are overlooked particularly because many folks have bought into the energy myth. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Energy is merely a measure of potential work. You could substitute momentum for energy in my posts and nothing changes. The results don't change, you need a solid bullet of sufficient diameter and sufficient weight moving at sufficient speed to have a rifle capable of reliably stopping an elephant. If a big bore pistol or revolver could reliably stop and elephant, as a big bore rifle can - if it meets the threshold of a solid bullet of ~480grs or greater with diameter .458" or greater, velocity ~2,100fps or greater to the pint of incurring bullet issues - then I would suggest that serious elephant hunters and elephant PH's would be spending the time to master the tool. Nothing like six or seven hours a day humping an 11lb rifle to encourage training to handle a much lighter and more convenient package, eh? Edit: Here is a pretty humorous explanation of why some of us think energy is a relevant measure of the potential work a bullet can do: "If you shoot a bullet, the rifle recoils with the same momentum as the bullet, but the bullet has a lot more Kinetic energy. Aren't you glad your shoulder is being hit by the rifle stock, and not by the bullet?" JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Disagree. Bullet weight, diameter, and penetration I have in spades. Most people can't shoot a .44 mag worth a hill of beans, let alone one of my .500s. I tell you what, you don't live far from me (I live in the free state right below your not-so-free state). I'll let you shoot a few of my bigger hammers and it will be clear to you why more folks don't use them on big game and it has nothing to do with paper ballistics. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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There is nothing paper about potential work. Energy is merely a measure of potential work. Momentum capture the same gist. It takes work to create wounds and damage. Penetration is a good thing, but it isn't the only thing. And sticking to the topic of stopping elephants, only so much penetration is required to brain an elephant from the front, and less when it has it's head down to kill you (as little as 10" or so,) and more than what is sufficient is a dilution of the transfer of the energy over time in the elephant, which reduces the stopping effectiveness in the advent of a missed brain shot. What stops an elephant when, inevitably if you shoot enough of them, you miss is the transfer of the potential work, call it momentum, call it energy, call it whatever you want quickly and within the elephant's head. Unless you have the bullet weight, the diameter AND the velocity you don't have a stopping cartridge. You ought to look under the thread "Very Basics on Impact Velocity of solids." You will see a photo containing a hard cast .458" 500gr bullet the likes of which I shot into elephant heads at about 1550fps to answer for an AR member the question of whether a non-"hot loaded" 45/70 could brain an elephant from the front. The answer was "Yes, probably, if everything goes right." The hard cast bullets didn't hold together too well, but the remains did penetrate the brain. The reason I advocate using a proven stopping rifle is that everything doesn't always go right. BTW, I wasn't pretending that anyone could shoot a revolver pushing a .458" or better, 480gr or better bullet at 2100fps or better. Those are stopping rifle numbers, and there is a reason that the great majority of stopping rifles tip the scales at 10+lbs. I would love to take you up on your offer to shoot some of your big bore revolvers. Do you live near DC? I live in Chevy Chase, Peoples Non-Democratic Republic of MD. "Liberal" doesn't really convey how far left our current A-Hole governor is. He is left of Mao, far left. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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One of my PHs, RCooke in Zimbabwe was asking advice on a bullet for one of his clients that is coming this year for elephant, (a bull, not cows or small tuskless,) with a 500 S&W, I have no doubt if our fellow does his job, the 400 gr .500 #13 Solid will do its job. In fact, any of the new current handgun #13s would have more than enough penetration to accomplish the mission...... Max, what many of these guys do not understand about you handgun boys, is that you guys paved the way for superior performance and penetration with bullet design. You had to! How does one enhance any cartridge, rifle or handgun? By bullet design of course! We all know handguns come up short when compared to a rifle. Facts are facts. The handgun boys had to enhance their capabilities because of this. How about Elmer? Anyone ever heard of Keith Style Bullets? Further down the road meplat sizes increase, enhancing destruction of tissue even further, and also enhancing penetration......... In recent years I think this has even gone a step further with mono large meplat copper bullets, CEB, Punch Bullets, and probably a few others as well, I don't keep up with everything going on with handguns much anymore...... The handgun boys knew all this, rifle boys are late comers to the parade on this deal. Us rifle guys just always figured what was used by grandpa was good enough.......... We owe you a debt hand gunners! Thanks for leading the way!!!!!!! Also, this is "Criteria for Dangerous Game Cartridge".... While elephant can be dangerous, there is several other SPECIES of dangerous game that this thread can talk about...... This is not the Elephant Criteria for Dangerous Game Cartridge..... While I would like to make it about buffalo, what about lions, bears and leopards and hippos and crocs and such and so on? Don't have to get stuck on elephant heads AGAIN.............................. But if you want to talk about an elephant head, by god I will talk about it! Here is what I think would transfer plenty of trauma to an elephant head..... Ulrik...... ROB....... One of those damed hot ass 577 whatevers that can run one of the 700 gr #13 NonCons at 2400 fps, or Robs 600 OK and the 800 gr #13 NonCon at 2400 fps... Yes, I said Hollow Point Safari Raptors.... You know something, one of those smallish tusk less elephants, a side brain shot, it just might blow an elephants head CLEAN OFF............Now talk to me about transfer of trauma or energy to an elephants head with that?? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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JPK, I am in no way calling into question your own ability or touting my own as being superior to yours or any other hunters. You obviously had a great hunt and your shooting and firearm did the job in a similar fashion to most other competent hunters on safari. I just find that statements such as you made, and others have made them on this forum too sometimes accompanied by video, of just how good a big double is "compared with a smaller bore" or similar words, is frustrating as it has not been proven in the scenario held up as proof of the big doubles effectiveness. No doubt in the video you posted that you and your firearm stopped a charge even though it was not a DRT shot. My contention has always been whenever this sort of post comes up is that there are just as many videos around of lesser calibres stopping charges and many, as there of large bore in action, not just stopping but making DRT shots. I note that when you say "I'll post a series of photos in another post on what a bigger rifle can do that a lesser rifle may not do." you do use the words 'may not do'. I could quite safely reverse that statement by swapping the 'bigger' and 'lesser' around. I can show you a video of my 404 completely flattening a buffalo with a chest shot while another video of Mark Sullivan requiring multiple shots from his 600 Nitro on a smallish buffalo and at close range before it was stopped, from running away, and put down. Different place different time, but in all honesty I cannot, and never have, asserted that the 404 is better than any other calibre for hunting big and dangerous game. For me with the several buffalo I did shoot with the 404 it worked fine and everything fell on the spot, with no head shots. It is a light to carry and easy rifle to point and shoot accurately and when shooting buffalo I never had cause or even though about whether or not the cartridge was going to do the job. Like many have found since this particular was released to the market, it just does do the job as do so many big bore and lesser calibres. DRT is DRT, stop or turn a charge, doesn't matter which rifle or cartridge combination does it. | |||
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eagle27, Please be careful not to sound to much like "Trax".  | |||
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Absolutely. and quite often with unreliable rifles and ammunition. | |||
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Just as a matter of clarification, I have always taken a minimum of two firearms on all of my safaris. This year will be no different than the previous 20, as I will be taking my 500NE or .416Rem along with my 458B&M. However, that in no way implies I will use them both. It is simply a matter of insurance. I don't travel half-way around the world, spend large amounts of U.S. dollars and hunt a variety of species while counting on a single firearm. IMO that would be incredibly stupid, and I never recommend stupidity as a means to success. BTW, I have killed a cape buff in Moz with my 500S&W revolver and have also taken a few world records with it as well as with my .480Ruger revolver. I few years ago I considered taking an ele with the 500S&W, as many have done, but honestly, I have way too much fun hunting ele with a rifle. And one thing JPK and I have in common is the fact that I firmly believe ele should be hunted only with something in the 458 caliber and up. Oh, and I have killed ele with lesser calibers, such as the 375 rat gun, but would never do so again. Counting on your PH to save your life also qualifies as stupid. Take a look at the spare ammunition in his belt next time you're hunting DG. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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TOO LATE!!! That's why they are both on my ignore list!   Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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That's good so why do you keep reading our posts  | |||
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I don't get too hung up on who I might or might not sound like, I guess we can all sound like others here including yourself as it depends on which side of the fence one happens to sit with any particular subject so perhaps you might heed your own advice. | |||
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I'm not sure that reliance on someone else qualifies as stupid, but it is definitely less fun. The game is played by the hunter herself/himself. If my wife ever decides to hunt a buffalo herself, she will probably be expecting me to tag along. But she would expect to finish things herself from the start. Would I object to her using a 375? Not if she was practiced enough with it with all 110 lbs of her weight. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I think that that 9.3 or 375 is a very nice little girly rifle for the girls.......  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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So does Harland! Richard Harland, on the 375H&H, "A well fitted 375H&H, neither unduly weighty nor possessed of great recoil, can be an excellent choice for Mrs. Elephant Hunter." p.69 JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Eagle, You make the mistake of thinking that a cape buffalo is similar to an elephant in it's reaction to being hit with a big bore bullet and are similar to hunt. They are distinctly not similar either in their reaction to a big bore bullet or to hunt. A charge from a buffalo is a rare thing, especially rare with an unwounded one. The opposite is true of elephant. Charges can be quite common depending on how you choose to hunt elephants, the terrain and also the temperament of the elephants in the area you are hunting. On temperament, some areas have rather placid elephants, but you can't count on that 100% because of cows' protective nature or bulls being in mushte. Some areas have very nasty elephants, and you can count on that, a large percentage will chase you or bluff or come for real if they get a good view of you, or even a good smell. [And despite what you might have read, eles have excellent eye sight, as good as they feel like having at any given moment. They are the true king of the beast and normally don't pay much attention to something 30 or so yds away, but get inside of 15 and they all do, and if they are feeling aggressive [or fearful] they can see quite well as far as they want to.] Buff are relatively immune to the energy dump of a bullet, and their heads are rather typical of animal heads. Eles are different, their heads are huge and are made up of a large volume of honeycomb bone, with the brain encased in a thin hard shell within that huge honeycomb. They joust by butting their heads on a regular basis, probably establishing and keeping the pecking order. Elephant are susceptible to being deterred from an attack by being hit in the head, even relatively far from the brain, with a big bore rifle bullet with ~5,000lbs' of energy. Don't take my word for it, take that of all of the great elephant hunters since the advent of the 450NE. Harland, Nychens, Duckworth, Groebler and a hell of a lot more tested the waters and confirmed to their individual satisfaction, and in doing so formed a consensus, that stopping rifles begin at about the level of a 450NE - 480gr, 2100fps, 500lbs', with some believing at a 416 Rigby fit the bill as well with 410grs, 2300fps, 5,000lbs' (or anything similar, like a modern loaded 404 or a 416 Remington.) Read the quotes in my post, they are all sourced from fellows who hunted eles for a living. Furthermore, elephants are susceptible to being knocked down or even out with a close but missed brain shot with a big bore stopping rifle. This due to the honeycomb, imo. In no way similar to a buff. You can search far and wide for similar reported results with rifles of less that 450NE capability and you will find some with rifles of the 416 Rigby class, but very. very little with rifles with less than 5,000lbs' of energy or 400grs of bullet. Do some reading of the elephant greats' books, they very little on the subject of appropriate elephant rifles for thick bush and/or close hunting. If elephant were as immune to the effects of a big bullet there would be a hell of a lot more hunters killed by eles. If buff were as susceptible to a big bore as an ele few be gored or trampled by a buff. There are different styles of elephant hunting. Some PH's fear eles and will not approach close. Some fear eles and will do it none the less, some crave the excitement. Same with ele hunters. Our host Saeed, does not like to approach DG closely, for example. I would not shoot a buff at the distances he brags of doing it. I see no point, he gets satisfaction... Same with eles. I have shot two at ranges greater than 35yds, but only because we couldn't get closer (because of other elephants) and the great safari time clock was running. Most I have shot between 15 and 12 yds, a few between 15 and 20yds and a couple under 12. When you choose to hunt close, you inevitably end up with encounters with eles you didn't see, or you end up within the flight or fight space and you get fight, not flight. To me that is part of the enjoyment. To some, not so much. Elephants are easy to kill with a heart shot, but why anyone would do it I don't know, except perhaps for that huge tusker when you couldn't get close. It would be, to me, as pointless as Saeed sniping a buff at a hundred or more yards. (Maybe the comment, "DG aren't dangerous at 50yds" gets the point across.) To me, great elephant hunting is approaching to the point the elephant turns to you and you have a moment to kill it or it is going to flee or attack. With a the perfect shot you never find out, no matter the cartridge used, but with an imperfect shot?.... Second choice is to get very close and try a side brain shot, but I sure love the moment when the elephant spins to face you. I read often the monotonous incantation about accuracy first. And I agree, but I also acknowledge that I am not perfect, that the shot presented my not be ideal, that braining an elephant at 12 yds can be difficult when his or her head is moving, that I may misread the head position or our relative elevations... That the shot may not be perfect. If you use enough rifle when elephant hunting, you can buy some time by making the elephant stumble, squat, drop or if attacking, stop and/or turn. But you can't reliably do it with a medium bore (but read about the 416 Rigby level of performance some believe is sufficient to be classified as a stopping rifle.) FWIW, hunting buff is fun for me, but does not compare in any way with hunting elephant. I have shot buff from about 10yds to about 45yds, but they are not that exciting to hunt for me compared to elephants. If you haven't tried it, go elephant hunting, in particular for a tuskless. That is the most exciting hunt on earth. Bulls are less exciting generally, but so grand they bring their own great satisfactions. But use enough gun to not have to rely on your PH to save your bacon and feed your family! JPK Free 500grains | |||
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yeah..sure.. now tell me what HP does, again?  opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
the preferred spelling is "figures". It's hard to take anything a person who spells at a third grade level says seriously. U noe? | |||
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[/QUOTE] yeah..sure.. now tell me what HP does, again? [/QUOTE]My point of the energy comment was it does not determine lethality or stopping potential,this was expanded by both Whitworth and Micheal458 in regards to big bore pistols, so it is pointless to reiterate what was said. I will not go into the debate of energy transfer, its a battle I am choosing to stay out of because 99.9% of us do not have the sophisticate equipment to accurately measure this, and this includes myself. 458wm, shooting 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2,135fps for a little more than 5,000lbs' of energy. 500 Linebaugh 460gr Punch 1150 fps 1350 fpe Both are stopping rounds, although the numbers are worlds apart, this was my point Idaho Sharpshooter, Thank you for the grammatical correction, but I can assure you, I spell above the third grade level most of the time!  Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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It's not a testosterone contest, it is what is adeqate. A 9.3 or .375 is clearly adequate if placed properly. Given a choice, I'd go with a larger bore. Ideal is clearly .45 calibre or over. But, the most versatile is a .416, in my opinion. | |||
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JPK, I had no intention of comparing cape buffalo with elephant and agree in the most with what you have said in regards elephants an hunting them. I just used the shots on buffalo between myself and MS as an example of how one can show an entirely different scenario. I don't think any one, including myself, on this forum doubts the effectiveness of big doubles on the big DG. Your video shows that and I acknowledged that and of course you and anyone else can hold the belief that a big double is the only one that should be used on the big varieties of DG. of course we should all be free and civil enough to debate that. What I have said is that in the scenario you show I could see no reason why you had to bring in the idea that a lessor calibre might not have done that. By the same token another hunter standing there with a big double may have failed to do what you did with your double. To me your video only shows what you did on the day in that place with your double, nothing else as there was nothing else there to compare it with. Had another hunter or your PH shot and hit the elephant with a lessor calibre and failed to stop the charge then yes you would have a great video to show that under those circumstances your double done the job. I thought this objective take on it was quite simple. Unfortunately many cannot have anyone call into question their idea on what various DG guns can or can't do and can't have a civil debate without starting to get snotty and name calling. Again unfortunately there is so much evidence both past and present of hunters and PHs able to utilise the so called lessor calibres to very successfully hunt and guide on DG in Africa. The lessor calibres may not be for everyone just as the big calibres are not for everyone. For those that say Saeed knows nothing about hunting DG or Atkinson is kidding himself thinking the 375, 9.3 or 40 cals are ideal, and of course Selby was a dreamer if he thought a 416 Rigby would not see him out as one of the longest serving PH's, and oh yes so I can become more like Trax as some would have it, we have that perennial thorn in the side with the man named Bell who probably shot more DG and other game than all the modern day forum posters put together. How dare we even hint at using him as an example of what a lessor calibre is capable of. I know damn well who I would sooner stand beside in a charge, I can't bring Bell back but Saeed will do nicely thank you very much. | |||
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The 416 Rigby cartridge has a very nice feel in the palm of the hand. Remarkable balance between bullet diameter, bullet weight and bullet velocity. Sort of like taking a 30-06 and getting it enlarged to something that is still practical in a shoulder-fired hunting rifle. (The 505 Gibbs and 50 BMG exemplify an extension of that enlarging process, but I don't want to shoot 9000 or 12000 ftlb cartridges. 6000 ftlbs is fine [PS1: 400 grain at 2600fps or 350 grains at 2800fps make great all around flat-shooting DG rounds.][PS2: A typical African standard is "2400fps" muzzle. Saeed, mentioned above, uses 2800 for his 375/404 (approx 375RUM). 2800fps is a nice plains game, flat-shooting standard.)]) +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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eagle27, I generally appreciate your posts BUT this one I had to double check it was in fact yours so accept my apology's if that came a bit hard. Personally I myself love to read what was used by other hunters from days gone by or in the present and I personally often use the light 9.3mm BUT when it comes to the unpredictable Elephant and particularly in early season bush I have to agree with JPK and Todd on this subject . | |||
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Oz no apologies needed, I knew you were a great exponent of the 9.3 as I have seen in the many good pics you post so you haven't entirely gone over to the dark side  Just didn't quite see where I fitted in with Trax other than mentioning Bell in passing which I have done before and nobody took too much from that. I do share the same surname and some Scottish ancestry, maybe if I mention him often enough one of his fine old Rigbys might come my way, then again maybe the whiskey is as close as I'll ever get  | |||
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| Moderator |
Are we talking horsepower, Jeffe? Calculated not measured.......torque is measured.......so, I don't know if this is where you are going with this, but....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| Administrator |
I know someone who shot a cow elephant in frontal brain shot. He missed the brain, and the cow just shock here head as if nothing has happened. I personally missed the brain on an elephant bull, he dropped to the ground struggling and I added another shot to the top of his head, killing him. | |||
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What was the cartridge, the bullet, the velocity of the round used on the cow? How close was the bullet to the brain? Was the shot a frontal? Was the elephant charging? Was your missed shot a frontal? Was the elephant charging? Also, when you cut out the bullet in the bull, how close where you to the brain on the missed shot? (I am assuming it was your bullet from your 375/404, correct?) The great weight of history and the personal experience with thousands of elephants by those I listed and many more provide the incontrovertible conclusion that the larger the bullet diameter, the greater the weight and, to the point of inducing bullet failure, the greater the velocity the more striking effect and the greater the margin for error on frontal shots into elephant heads in stopping a charge. We mere mortals are imperfect and we are not error free, the evidence of that is also incontrovertible, eh! Pretending that we mere mortals are error free is silly. Prepare for the worst, train for the best. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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