Hi Frederick,

A few years back, when replacing my .416 I went through the same shopping process .. I ended up buying a new BRNO Z602 in 458 Win Mag from Classic Arms, I sent the rifle to Kevan Healy at Bloem Custom Rifles who reamed it to .285" i.e 450 Watts or 458 Lott. .. our CFR licensed it as a "458".

Anyhow, Kevan made a bunch of other changes and I ended up with a "charge stopper" as per my specs. Gregor Woods of the Magnum Magazine owns my rifles "twin" and did a great article on the calibre with a lot of load info - I can't remember the exact issue but it is worth trying to get a copy to read.

Reloading for the 458 Lott is not a problem in RSA, all the components are readiliy available from Marius and others - however, I had to order RCBS dies from the USA as none were available locally.

In short, this rifle & calibre combo worked for me ... here it is - a no frills working rifle:

Peter V, real nice rifle, I really like it. It should put them down on the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by fivebigbores:
BEARTOOTH this guy knows and shoots same as Gregor woods who wrote the book on african hunting rifles a knotch up from the nest

I would say so, just a little, just a little

I'm sure someone has mentioned this, and maybe I'm missing something here, but why buy the winny when you can still shoot them through the Lott and not visa versa? Shoot the winn mags, and if you ever feel you need the extra killing power of the Lott, you can switch over. I apologize If I'm just reiterating what someone has already mentioned.

fivebigbores,

An interesting and entertaining article.

Thanks for posting it.

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:
Or the CZ BRNO ZKK602 in .458 holds 5 down easily, and has huge magazine length for a Lott as well.

It should be a fairly uncomplicated rechamber if you can find a .458 WinMag version.

And it's just a little more "working rifle" than the newer CZ's, IMHO.

I have one like this with a McMillan stock, reamed to take the Lott. 500 grains factory Federal Premium 458 win ammo has a velocity just shy of 2000 f/s in my BRNO 602 with a Lott chamber.

I have a 458 Lott from Wff Hein, shooting Barnes 500g FN solids. I'm taking it to ZIM in mid september for buffalo and hippo. I went with the lott because my other 3 friends that are going on the trip also have lotts and we can all use the same ammo just in case some of the ammo does not make it. If they all had wins, I guess I would have gottan a win.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
I'm sure someone has mentioned this, and maybe I'm missing something here,

Mate, you'll have to stop sniffing that naplam stuff. Yes it's been mentioned, and yes I think your missing something.

Much is made of the possibility of using the Win in the Lott, as if that solves all the problems. But people post here they don't want to use the short ammo in their long chambers, and why should they? most people reload and can load down the Lott if they want to.

And what if you lost your Lott ammo or what ever seniaro you dream up, but hey, there's no Win ammo either?

And guess what? These days we can load up the Win to the extend people probably don't want the extra power or RECOIL or weight maybe of the Lott, esp. where the well placed bullet will be the deciding factor.

Look, why stuff around, get the 460 something.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
I'm sure someone has mentioned this, and maybe I'm missing something here,

Mate, you'll have to stop sniffing that naplam stuff. Yes it's been mentioned, and yes I think your missing something.

Much is made of the possibility of using the Win in the Lott, as if that solves all the problems. But people post here they don't want to use the short ammo in their long chambers, and why should they? most people reload and can load down the Lott if they want to.

And what if you lost your Lott ammo or what ever seniaro you dream up, but hey, there's no Win ammo either?

And guess what? These days we can load up the Win to the extend people probably don't want the extra power or RECOIL or weight maybe of the Lott, esp. where the well placed bullet will be the deciding factor.

Look, why stuff around, get the 460 something.

A lot of what you say is good information, whether you realize it or not! A 458 WM with 500 gr. bullets at 2150 fps is all that is needed even for bull elephant. I spent a lot of time when I was in Zim a couple weeks ago pimping for information from the guys that use them. And a lot of them either use them, are going to use them, or going back to the Winnie.

Since that is how I feel about the 458 WM I am of course prejudiced but the 458 WM has the penetration, the knockdown power, and can be built as a flyweight rifle relative to the Lott. Tell me something to hate about it!

Bill, (with all due respect) I would rather not shoot a flyweight 458 and how much extra weight will 3/10" add to the the weight of the gun?
That said I believe the 458 win mag is all I need.

It just depends on what you are after. A stock CZ in 458 WM weighs in at about 9.5+ lbs. Just too heavy for me.

My "flyweight" CZ Lott was trimmed down to 8.70 lbs.



My "flyweight" 416 Taylor is 7.74 lbs.



Starting on a 458 WM that I hope comes in at 8.0 or less lbs. We'll see. Just my preference to suffer a bit of ocassional recoil for the benefit of having a handy, lightweight rifle.

To each their own.

As always, Bill Stewart's reply makes good sense for the man hunting primarily elephant. I'm still enough of a beginner to take lots of plains game, if available, on an elephant hunt. Therefore, I'm still taking two rifles adequate for both kinds of game--375H&H and 458 Win. The recoil of the Lott is just more than I wish to endur (and being on blood thinners, is more than my shoulder could take without severe bruising).

I understand what you are saying, but you aren't comparing two of the same rifles- a factory rifle to a modified rifle.
I'm sure you could build both cartridges to within oz of each other.

quote:

I am not aware of anyone who has seriously tried to match her. This is probably a good thing for Sir Samuel, even with his extraordinary physique, ended his days punch drunk from the beatings she gave him and had to be led around by the hand.

Not meaning to hi-jack the thread but, Sir Samuel went cocko-loco-moco-in-the-coco not from the recoil of Baby but because of his propensity to harden the 2000gr + balls with mercury which he absorbed far too much into his brain. That's why he had to be led around by the hand.

Just to keep it going, how would you all feel about the two if elephant was not on the menu. What about everything else that is (not quite as) big and mean?

Well that's easy; for the Win you go down in bullet weight.
For the Lott, you shorten the case and rechamber to Win.

It is an obvious and over-stated fact that the .458 Win is as good a DGR cartridge as there is. Ron Thomson (Mahoboh) shot ~1,000 elephant on control work with a .458 Win.
Mahoboh is an excellent read btw...

But I chose the .458 Lott. It offers enough flexibilty by handloading, that I think is is the answer. Load it from 2150 to 2300 fps MV; I've got my handload at ~2250 fps MV, which I figure is about perfect...

I think the shorter 458WM cases will load and handle more quickly in the magazine.

I prefer the 450 Ackley, which lets me load it up and down, and also will let me use 458 Win Mag and 458 Lott ammo in it, like a 22 S, L, and LR (although a tad bigger). I can get 2400 fps with the 500 gr bullets, which is about all I can stand. - dan

JAL, or 'mate', or whatever- I simply asked if the point that the Lott could take win ammo and not the other way around had been brought up. Let's take a look at your little diatribe you posted as a response... My comments are in quotations.

"Mate, you'll have to stop sniffing that naplam stuff (obviously "mates aren't big fans of F.F. Coppola movies). Yes it's been mentioned, and yes I think your missing something (This sentence actually answers my questions... congrats).
Much is made of the possibility of using the Win in the Lott, as if that solves all the problems (don't know that anyone on earth has ever claimed that this solves "all" the problems. Maybe you should finish the second half of Boddington's novel. Chapter 16, titled "Bolt actions today" isn't until page 179). But people post here they don't want to use the short ammo in their long chambers, and why should they? most people reload and can load down the Lott if they want to (When you say most people reload, I'll give it to you that perhaps most on this forum have at one point, but again, over use of hyperbole).
And what if you lost your Lott ammo or what ever seniaro (spell check doesn't always work, so I'll let this slide) you dream up, but hey, there's no Win ammo either? (Oh, come on mate, everybody knows win ammo is more available and cheaper in most cases!)
And guess what?(Not a question.) These days we can load up the Win to the extend (t) people probably don't want the extra power or RECOIL or weight maybe of the Lott, esp. where the well placed bullet will be the deciding factor. (Man, don't know what to make of this sentence, but I'll assume it's just more outrageous claims.)
Look, why stuff around, get the 460 something.

When all is said and done, I'm not really sure what you're saying JAL, other than the fact that you really have something against my taste in movies. No, seriously, you are correct about it all. The fact that one can load win ammo into a lott, and that one cannot load Lott ammo into a win is, after all, irrelevant... Except to those few that don't reload, don't own a collection of big game rifles, might only get one shot at a trip to africa, want a rifle that can hadle ele's well but can also be loaded down with factory ammo in order to save a collar bone or two, and want a versatile rifle that can shoot two cartridges that can both be reloaded to different specs. In short, I disagree, and no, I haven't been snorting anything. I did, however, miss something... the general premise of your point.

Some of the justification for the 458 Win. is just flat out comical, like its a short cartridge! well whoopie due, and extra 1/4 of an inch, If one can chew gum and walk he can handle that extra bolt toss...

A $100 bill,maybe a little more, will convert a .458 Win to a 458 Lott, you can almost do that with your fingernail, and if one cannot afford such a conversion, then he cannot afford to go use one in Africa and thats for sure..In the USA he is overgunned anyway.

Bottom line is there is no reason not to convert to .458 Lott, and get more velocity, and/or less pressure, you can still shoot .458 Win ammo in the Lott, and NO it won't hurt a thang! If the Lott kicks too much then so will the 458 Win mag. Its time to shoot a 416 or 375, which IMO is the best two rounds for Africa.

To those that insist, then use the .458 Win., and it will work with a good handload, no doubt about that..To each his own, but some of the lame stuff I'm reading is ridiculas..

I'm with you here Ray. I'm just saying to get the Lott off the top, or convert if necessary. It's not logical to me to do otherwise, and it's less logical to bash my favorite movie quote because someone doesn't like the extra weight of the Lott... cry me a river. Why not kill two birds with one rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
. I did, however, miss something... the general premise of your point.

Hey,Bud,Chuck, Maddy whatever. My point was quiet simple. The topic you mentioned has been talked about to the point of ad nauseam,(how's that for spelling) and is so obvious to anyone contemplating or owning a Lott.

It's a bit like me stating "get a .22LR, you can use longs if the shop runs out of LR.
Do you see it now, mate?

Now another point I was trying to point out to you is that DON'T COUNT ON SAID SHOP TO HAVE LONGS if you loose your LR (or Lott ammo)

Do you see that now Gringo??

Ah stuff it, you get the picture, and I saw it.
And I love the smell of Pesticides in the morning. That's probably why I'm a bit slow.

So you're new here, you must learn to recognize my bad spelling and my dry wit. Some say I'm only a half-wit.

Stick with us Yank.

Another bonus with the LOTT is its ability to fire the great Woodleigh 550grn bullets at a reasonable velocity with acceptable pressure.

How's this for spelling JAL... "My point was QUIET simple" (your words preceding the quote 'How's that for spelling?'). You are a real paragon of sagacity pal, and I'm new here, so I'll leave it alone after this post. You are right in that I was playing captain obvious with my thread, thus the apology I posted.... something along the lines of "I apologize If I'm just reiterating what someone has already mentioned". I just didn't see it discussed in the thread. I do still contend that you are wrong about the availability issue. I don't know where you are from or which way your sh#tt$rs flush, but in some cases, be they few and far between, some stores will be out of win ammo and have lots of Lotts available...maybe because the wins are more popular and they're sold out etc. In any case, it does happen. Hence, it is an advantage to be able to shoot both types of ammo. Moreover mate, why don't you go flush it yourself? You started this with your 'dry witt', but I'll end it buy saying that you are what I would call, Australian for half-wit. In that, we agree, and thus, I conclude my own diatribe.

Hey Tex, don't go. I still have a lot to learn.
And my spelling checker doesn't work. When I activate it my post disappears (no rude comments necesssary)

But I will try and be more civil and constructive.

I took your advice and got stuck into Safari Rifles and saw C.B.s advice about using Win in a Lott. But mate, that was like about donkey's years ago when the Lott was a wildcat.
From what I read on AR, every man and his dog is frantically(sp)? going to a Lott. Anyday now .458 wm will be discontinued, but every poacher in Africa will be able to blackmarket you some spare Lotts.

So what I'm saying is that not everyone wants to buy a Lott or have a Lott REGARDLESS on what else it can shoot. And a Lott (sic) of people are going to find out they never want to shoot their Lott again, and wish they wern't talked into ruining their "classic, historic, antique, adequate Win.

Say, if you ask about my PF M70 .458WM Super Grade I'll then be quite quiet, maybe.

Anyway pard., neighbour, how about helping me keep the heavyweights RIP RAY MAC ALF ect honest. Every now and then they cough up some gems that they otherwise wouldn't get around to. or is it too? Your making me nervise (sic).

I have a Lott on order and look forward to shooting it but after trying my new 458WM, I doubt that there is anything better for buff and other dangerous game.The cartridges handle nicely in my hands,recoil is at a level that makes the rifle somewhat managable,it fires the 500gr bullet at HAMMERING velocities.I think Winchester, like usual,knew what they were doing when they came out with this cartridge.The Lott is like a Weatherby cartridge compared to the original cartridges.It was the original ones that developed from demand,trial and error,whereas the wildcats were after the dollar only.

Don't know about that. I don't even know why people compare the Win and Lott.

They are two different cartridges and there are many more about the same power. Take your pick.

If the ability of using .458 wm in the Lott counts for much, well there are a lot of cartridges people should stay away from.
The fact is interesting to know and that's about it.

All due respect to Jack Lott, but the Lott wasn't needed, but good on him for doing it anyway. I'm all for experiments, choises, gadgets, and people that want to make and name a cartridge after themselves, or anything else takes their fancy. As long as I'm not expected to use it.

Now that thing getting done by PC a .458/50BMG.
Now that's an elephant gun.

/

ALF, I probably am. But just wondering still.

So Mr Watt goes to Win many years ago. Win make a decision, which probably wasn't based on not likeing the look of Mr Watt.

The short 458 is born and mostly works well.
Some ammo left in the heat for a few years doesn't.
The velosity isn't as clamed (Now there's a first.) Was the .470 even?

So Mr Lott is going to fix it? What happened to Mr Watt's creation? Not good enough for Win and Mr Lott? Isn't there a .458 that will fire both Win and Lott? Did Mr Lott use a standard Win action? How much would it have cost Win to fit the Watt's cart. for the hand full of expected customers? Did Mr Lott even use a Win action for his Lott?
So Win stuffed themselves up just to spite Mr Watt?

And what's with the "legacy" business.
Now is what concerns us. We can buy a .458 Win that is so popular that the Lott owners expect to find heaps of ammo if they loose theirs.

With new bullets of UP TO 500gr. and new powders (that are here to stay) the .458 Win will NOW do it. (if it ever couldn't)

And if Mr Lott had missed the vital zone with a Lott, he still would have been tossed?
Am I right or what? (no pun intended)

The cartridge says 458 WINCHESTER mag.

/

What about the .450 Barnes Supreme that was featured in a 1949 brochure of the offerings of Fred Barnes, bullet maker and wildcatter whose company developed into the current Barnes bullet company?

.450 Barnes Supreme next to 30-06:


These obscure proprietary/wildcat cartridges ranged from .288 to .505 "Barnes Supreme" eventually. P.O. Ackley listed them in his handbook. J. Donnelly has some data on them too, IIRC.

When I can get to that brochure I will scan it and post it here.

The American big-bore-wildcat timeline should start with Roy Weatherby's .375 Weatherby in 1944, and Fred Barnes was offering his .416 and .450 Barnes Supreme to the public by 1949.

Then came Watts.

Let's get it right.

The first three rifles I had Willis Fowler build for me in Anchorage, AK in the mid 80's unwittingly followed this sequence:

First a .375 Weatherby, then a .450 and .416 Barnes Supreme.

Right after that, Remington came out with the .416 Remington Magnum, and I was pissed to be stuck with the .416 BS. Now I rather treasure these odd ducks built on Whitworth Mark X's.

Fred Barnes was the first to offer a .458/.375 H&H cartridge.

Prove me wrong.
Anybody?

/

O.K.
James Watts, an out of work high school history teacher and geologist, with too much time on his hands, conceived the 450 Watts in 1947. He did not build one until 1949. Meantime he is sharing the idea, writing and visiting, Jack O'Connor for his guidance, P.O. Ackley for barrels, and Fred Barnes for bullets, looking to promote the idea commercially through Winchester, yes, Winchester as early as 1947, when the .450 Watts was just a glimmer in James Watts' eye.

He copyrighted the ".450 Watts Magnum" in 1950 after the .450 Ackley and .450 Barnes Supreme have sprung up from Watt's idea, all being created nearly simultaneously in 1949.

I do not think we have heard anything from the Fred Barnes side of the story, just the recollections of James Watts in the Cal Pappas book, and the recollections of P.O. Ackley, which may be as reliable as his loading data.

I am still looking to pin down the dates on the entire Barnes Supreme line of cartridges, .288 to .505.

James Watts started the .458/.375 H&H "Idea" in 1947. O.K., I'll accept that.

/

Now that's what I call good info., from a "silly" arguement, as some would say.

Thanks fellas.

I think ALF is right,Watts was copied by everyone else.He was the TRUE specialist.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
James Watts, an out of work high school history teacher and geologist, with too much time on his hands, conceived the 450 Watts in 1947. He did not build one until 1949. Meantime he is sharing the idea, writing and visiting, Jack O'Connor for his guidance, P.O. Ackley for barrels, and Fred Barnes for bullets, looking to promote the idea commercially through Winchester, yes, Winchester as early as 1947, when the .450 Watts was just a glimmer in James Watts' eye.

He copyrighted the ".450 Watts Magnum" in 1950 after the .450 Ackley and .450 Barnes Supreme have sprung up from Watt's idea, all being created nearly simultaneously in 1949.

I do not think we have heard anything from the Fred Barnes side of the story, just the recollections of James Watts in the Cal Pappas book, and the recollections of P.O. Ackley, which may be as reliable as his loading data.

I am still looking to pin down the dates on the entire Barnes Supreme line of cartridges, .288 to .505.

James Watts started the .458/.375 H&H "Idea" in 1947. O.K., I'll accept that.

I am thinking Barnes, Watts and Ackley, in Vegas - with base-ball bats of course - to sort this one out!

Couldn't resist...sorry if I am the only one that finds the thought hilarious.


Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck,
Very funny!