With todays premium bullets and the amount of real big game shooting except if you live in Zim, Bots or Namibia and with 450gr bullets gettign 2200-2300 fps in the normal win mag would you feel undergunned for DG with the 458 Win mag and 450gr bullets ? Or should you rather go for a Lott ?

This is all considerations I'm thinking off for building myself a big bore in the future and would like to start saving an planning.

since reloading is "illegal" in large parts of africa the lott is the only way to get there, reliablely... but, of course, those fancy 458 winmag loads can be shot in a lott, but not the other way around

S-H, if you are going to be reloading for this rifle, what powders are available to you in SA? As I understand it, the SA made powders need a larger volume to equal europian an US powders. That is why the 458 Express(3") was developed in your country. If that is the case, I would got for the Lott. More room, more horsepower. Plus you can use the 500gr and even 550gr bullets, if you want to shoot with heavey weight bullets.

If I ever get the chance to go after buff or el, I will load my Lott with 550gr @ 2200fps. I believe in the bigger hammer theory.

Keith

I would not feel undergunned with a .458 Win Mag loaded with 450-grain bullets. If you have an action that will handle the Lott there is no down side to building the Lott.

Win.

450 Ackley and you can shoot all of them...!

Ditto what Jeff said, now that I got a 450 Ackley, lol.

as I told a friend who tried to compare his 357 mag to my hot handloads in 45Long Colt...I can always load down to 357 power levels.

458 Lott

Rich
DRSS

I have owned the .458 Win, the Lott and the .450 Ackley. I would go with the .458 Win and your 450 gr bullets.

jim

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
I would not feel undergunned with a .458 Win Mag loaded with 450-grain bullets. If you have an action that will handle the Lott there is no down side to building the Lott.

I agree with the quote. I am a huge fan of the 458wm, but if your powder choice is limited the Lott will make up for it.

JPK

MODERN DAY 458 Win. caliber and ammo will do it all, in a nice small package. If you are reloading and have the action that will feed the 458 Lott thats the way I would go, you can shoot the 458 win ammo in a pinch and you can reload at decreased velocities say 2150 or 2100 in the 458 Lott case and you will lower the chamber pressures A BIG plus in the hot weather conditions of SA.

tiggertate -- PM sent.

You know it is just like the .38 Special and the .357 mag. Or the .44 Special and the .44 mag. Why not get the bigger one yo can always shoot the smaller round out of it but you can not go the other way around.

The .458Lott just makes more sense. I load my Lott to about 2150 or 2200 with 500 gr bullets. It is pleasant to shoot the pressure is realativley low, it is just a comfortable easy load to shoot in a Lott. That is a maxed out mother in a win.

And if you so desire you can shoot maxed out mother loads in a Lott that will exceed anything you can shoot in a win.

To me it is really a no brainer. the Lott is what the win should have been all along.

lott it is the new standard and just plain works

what surestrike said!!

Rich
DRSS

The Lott may be the way to go, as the .458WM isn't up to it. But then why crow about being able to use the Win in the Lott. If it's not worth using in one, why consider it in the other. Straight to .460 Weatherby and be done with it.

If you don't allready own a rifle in 485WM and are trying to decide between the two calibers then go with the larger case of the 458Lott and reap its advantages.

You can allways down load the bigger cartridge to much lesser power levels possibly down to a hot 45-70 level.

But to answer the original question.
If you or another forum member has a ballistic calculator that can determine the me of the 450gr bullet at a faster (2300fps ?) mv verses the 500grs at the slower mv 2040fps of a 458wm.
If the calulation shows the lighter but faster bullet still generating over 5000ft/lb then I would not feel undergunned using that combination.
I did look up the SD of a 450gr bullet and it was over .300 (.307) so the penitration should still be very good.

Then they is allways the 3rd option, if you don't allready own either a 458wm or Lott, you could go with a 416 Rem Mag.

Or the 4th option, my favorite the 375H&H.


IF only their was a way to add a turbo charger to a small rifle cartridge, in order to make the smaller cubic inch displacement of the small cartridge act like a larger cid cartridge.
Vroom Vroom or more accurately BOOM BOOM and turn up the boost pressure were loading elephant.

So it seems that the Lott is the only solution. Now let me start looking around for components or second hand. One thing I really want is a extended mag to be able to at least hold 4 rounds. That I know is not going to be easy to find.

If I'm not mistaken, the CZ 550 holds 5 down.

Or the CZ BRNO ZKK602 in .458 holds 5 down easily, and has huge magazine length for a Lott as well.

It should be a fairly uncomplicated rechamber if you can find a .458 WinMag version.

And it's just a little more "working rifle" than the newer CZ's, IMHO.

No brainer: Get a Lott.

Mine, built on a CZ 550 Magnum action, is a six shooter: five down and one up.

How about a 450 Watts and you can shoot all three,450 Watts,458 Lott and 458 Win mag.....

I would chose the 458 Lott with 500 solids going 2350 FPS. Yes the CZ 458 Lott holds 5 down.

Safari-Hunt, before you pass up the .458 Win Mag, please borrow or steal a copy of "Ndlovu-The Art of Hunting the Africa Elephant" and read the chapter on this calibre. There is a great load available to handloaders in South Africa, using Somchem powders, which gives 2150fps with the 500gr bullet. I have used 4 rifles in .458WM over 50 years and have killed ???? elephants and a lot else - it is all you need, believe me, if loaded corrctly. Good luck!

Greetings Richard, great to have you on AR.

OZHUNTER

Richard,

Welcome aboard. I'm sure you will provide a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience to this forum.

465H&H

OZHUNTER and 465H&H - Thanks guys, but I'm sure to learn an awful lot more from the vast knowledge of you members of AR. So glad I discovered this fraternity!

Hello Richard Harland. Welcome to AR. Looking forward to learning from your posts, not too often do any of us have the opportunity to share experiences with a living legend.

BTW, I really enjoyed and learned from your book. Thank you for taking the time to write it and share your knowledge and experience.

JPK

Well any rifle that will handle the 458 Win will handle a 458 Lott, and all one has to do is run a chamber reamer in a .458 Win just a tad or less and you have a Lott. The Lott is a better caliber and works at lower pressure at equal velocity, but you have the option of adding about 350 FPS to the .458 Win...and you can shoot 458 Win. in the Lott and it will not hurt the Lott as some profess...

I have nothing at all against the 458 Win with handloaded ammo, I don't trust factory stuff, so why would I even own one anymore, in fact I do not...

The Lott is a logical upgrade IMO, and just because the .458 has killed a lot of whatever, does not make it a better choice...but if you have one and you like then keep it and shoot it, it will serve you well with good handloads.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well any rifle that will handle the 458 Win will handle a 458 Lott, and all one has to do is run a chamber reamer in a .458 Win just a tad or less and you have a Lott. .

Ray, you ort to get one .458 WM, just as backup for Warthogs or something.
Now I'm just trying to keep some balance here. Your quote above, well I don't know. I believe with my M70 "something" will need opening up (action length). The magazine will need work and replacement parts? (follower?). I'd need a heap of brass that probably is not usually available here.

The "benifit" also might be a cracked stock, a bigger flinch, I'd have to find that reamer I had laying around somewhere. And yeah, it may then kill something deader than dead.

The whole world esp. USA is full of different calibres and there is a whole lot of overlap with most difference in the imagination. Then there are the people that just can't leave things standard. A mate was talked into converting a .243 into a 6mm AI. He's not at all pleased with his decision.

I'm part way thru reading Boddington's Safari Rifles, and one thing keeps cropping up is with different calibres, "THE OWNER SWEARS BY IT".
What they really mean is "I can shoot this thing OK."

Now I'll believe you that the Lott is more powerful than the .458.
If you will admit the .458 will do many people as is, smaller calibers (.416's say) may also be suitable for some people, and there are plenty of calibres better, bigger, more powerful than the Lott, and some people may prefer them, and good luck to them.

Say hullo to El Porky the pony for me.

458 WM is the best caliber ever developed.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
458 WM is the best caliber ever developed.

Caliber? Or do you mean cartridges?...

cartridge

A number of sources have demonstrated that the original 450 smokeless nitro did NOT deliver advertised velocity.The double rifles for it and the other 7 similar cartridges were not regulated for ammo that matched the ballistics stated.The ACTUAL velocities were much closer to 2000 fps rather than 2150 fps.

It appears to me that this is often overlooked.The 458 win was intended to more or less duplicate the old 450 smokeless nitro (and similar rounds)and in fact,it seems to do just that.

John Taylor probably never even saw a chronograph.When he quoted ballistics,he was reading off the box.

One of the main points that I see critics of the 458 win make is that with poorly loaded ammo,it's crappy.If you're going to be consistant with that logic than you will also say that I have a crappy car if it doesn't run well on watered down gas.

Don't put watered-down gas in your gas tank and don't use poorly loaded ammo in your 458 win.

My .458 Win Mags get between 2150 and 2200 fps with a 480 Woodleigh solid (66 grains of RL7 with a F215M primer). I am not thinking many animals can tell the difference between that load and 500 grains at 2300 fps.

With all the discussion you would think no Elephant or cape buffalo had ever fallen before the invention of the Lott. There are some disadvantages to the Lott.

1) Need a longer action and Magazine which = a pricier rifle.

2) Don't lose your Lott ammo in Africa (We all know that everything that goes onto the plane always comes off) doing so will leave you with the 458 win, and after all, what good is that....

3) If you goober your shot you can't blame the wounded buff goring you on poor ammo performance.

4) More recoil/noise.

5) More expensive ammo/brass.

There are advantages too

1) You can be more cool than the owner of a 458 Win

2) You can say your rifle/cartridge combo outperforms a proven game taker.

3) As your 458 solid goes through the buff, you know that it landed a 1/4 mile further than a 458 win mag.

John

Big Bore, I guess you are a fan of the win mag?

Therećs a lot of truth to what you are saying, but there are lots of reasons to go the route of the Lott as well. Me, I went Ackley -- I can shoot all three and it might be even a bit louder that the win mag as well -LOL

"HAS ANY ONE CHECKED THE VEL = 2260 OF HORNADYS 500 GRAIN"

Hornady 458 WM Heavy Magnums chronographed 2083 fps (Oehler chrono reading 10' from muzzle) in my Ruger No.1 (24" bbl). Nearly 200 fps slower than advertised....

Matt V.

I'm in northern WV and my elevation is around 1300 feet. The chronographing was done in late October of last year with an air temp around 70 degrees...

Yeah, it just goes to show ya that advertised velocities aren't always what ya get....

This thread convinced me to buy a CZ 458 Win Mag.I just ordered one instead of the Ruger Lott.I think they have a CZ 458 WM at wholesale on stock.I don't feel like waiting and paying double the price for the Lott.Besides,I am not that sure about a cast receiver as opposed to what CZ makes.I also have bought tons of Win 458 cases and don't want to buy things for nothing.If they get it to me soon,I'll test it and show you how fast a 458WM can really shoot the 500gr bullet without problems on a hot and humid day.